Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=Son Of Man;664601]Thank you! Ben Rothlisberger and Aaron Rogers seem to be able to elevate their play with sub-par lines...why do we excuse JC's mediocrity?[/quote]

Yep, and good QBs make their O lines look better. Matt Cassell was sacked relentlessly behind the same line Brady camps out behind all the time. He's a threat to beat you deep, Cassell was not. AND the O line was fine for the first 4-5 games last year. BUT, this has been re-hashed a zillion times.:bdh:

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=44Deezel;664609]Yep, and good QBs make their O lines look better. Matt Cassell was sacked relentlessly behind the same line Brady camps out behind all the time. He's a threat to beat you deep, Cassell was not. AND the [B]O line was fine for the first 4-5 games last year.[/B] BUT, this has been re-hashed a zillion times.:bdh:[/quote]You keep saying this, but I do not think any line that allows as much pressure as Detroit got and as Tampa Bay got to be called "fine." If that performance was fine, then I'm fine with 4-12. Because that, to me, is overachieving.

The line was toast as soon as the first guy (Thomas) went down. All the Samuels injury did was allow reality to set in.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[B]2009 Sack Rates[/B]

Jason Campbell: 7.8%, 550 dropbacks
Aaron Rodgers: 8.5%, 591 dropbacks
Ben Roethlisberger: 9.0%, 556 dropbacks

Who made what look good again?

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

who's going to pay a 1st and 3rd for campbell he wasn't even worht the 1st yo uused nthe first place... he's an ok QB could be good i na few years maybe i nthe right system but no way worth a 1st and 3rd right now.... maybe a 3rd only.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

Anyone else see that after a talk with Shanahan, Jason Campbell feels he has a future in Washington? ( i assume future means more than just next season)

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/02/18/jason-campbell-had-real-positive-talk-with-mike-shanahan/]Jason Campbell had "real positive" talk with Mike Shanahan | ProFootballTalk.com[/url]

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=D'BOYZ;664614]who's going to pay a 1st and 3rd for campbell he wasn't even worht the 1st yo uused nthe first place... he's an ok QB could be good i na few years maybe i nthe right system but no way worth a 1st and 3rd right now.... maybe a 3rd only.[/quote]

In a few years? Dude he is 28 years old.. How much more time does this guy need? I like JC but his time is up in D.C, and yes I agree with you but Campbell is worth atleast a 2nd round pick.. Anyone who takes a beaten like JC did last year deserves a good pick lol.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=GTripp0012;664610]You keep saying this, but I do not think any line that allows as much pressure as Detroit got and as Tampa Bay got to be called "fine." If that performance was fine, then I'm fine with 4-12. Because that, to me, is overachieving.

The line was toast as soon as the first guy (Thomas) went down. All the Samuels injury did was allow reality to set in.[/quote]

And I'll keep saying it. We must have been watching different games. I remember checking his sack totals after 4 games and he was in the bottom third of all starting QBs. The O line wasn't a mess until AFTER Samuels and Randy Thomas went down, AND then Campbell actually played better. He was absolutely NOT running for his life against the likes of the Lions, Bucs, Rams and friggin Chefs. BUT who's to say it wasn't Zorn's fault. The O definitely seemed to have more life after Sherm started calling plays.

I'm just saying I don't think you can blame the ineptness of the Offense early in the season against arguably some of the worst Defenses of all time on the O line. For the record, I actually think Campbell showed a lot during the second half of the season and am totally comfortable with him being the starter. I just don't think drafting a QB with the first pick should be off the table by any means. I believe the O line can still be addressed if they draft a QB with the 4th pick.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=PHazard;664616]Anyone else see that after a talk with Shanahan, Jason Campbell feels he has a future in Washington? ( i assume future means more than just next season)

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/02/18/jason-campbell-had-real-positive-talk-with-mike-shanahan/]Jason Campbell had "real positive" talk with Mike Shanahan | ProFootballTalk.com[/url][/quote]

Not sure I buy the premise that the biggest knock on JC is his inability to throw downfield, and I certainly don't accept his excuse that it's because he didn't have time. No one criticizes him for failing to throw the ball downfield when he's being sacked in a split second. People who criticize his long ball ability criticize him for the plays [U]where he did have time to throw[/U] and he did have receivers open, but still failed to get the ball close. How many balls landed out of bounds or out of the back of end zone last year? That said, he looked better later in the season and should have no problem securing the starting job next year, regardless of who they draft at #4.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

Well if it was up to Kiper he says it's a "No Brainer" The skins should take a QB in the first round.. I agree 100%, you can find solid lineman in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Sam Bradford doesn't walk through the door every season. I even like Clausen but would rather have Bradford. 6FT 4 , Big arm, Accuracy compared to guys like Brees and Manning, and maybe the smartest player in the draft. Oh also a good athlete too.

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/kipers-argument-for-the-redski.html]Redskins Insider - Kiper's argument for the Redskins drafting Clausen[/url]

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=44Deezel;664619]And I'll keep saying it. We must have been watching different games. I checked his sack totals after 4 games and he was in the bottom third. The O line was a mess after Samuels went down, AND Campbell actually played better. He was absolutely NOT running for his life against the Lions, Bucs, Rams and friggin Chefs. BUT who's to say it wasn't Zorn's fault. The O definitely seemed to have more life after Sherm started calling plays.

I'm just saying I don't think you can blame the ineptness of the Offense early in the season against arguably some of the worst Defenses of all time on the O line. For the record, I actually think Campbell showed a lot during the second half of the season and am totally comfortable with him being the starter. I just don't think drafting a QB with the first pick should be off the table by any means. I believe the O line can still be addressed if they draft a QB with the 4th pick.[/quote]Well, before Samuels went down, we could block a three man rush. It hadn't reached comical yet. Doesn't mean we weren't toast at the time.

The whole idea of "the line was actually good for one-quarter of the season" is a ridiculous premise to begin with. If the point is to try to isolate a four game sample from an entire season as being indicative of a dependent players true value, you aren't going to have anything but an operative theory. There's really nothing there to suggest the line was any better then, but it was at least less injured.

Things of course didn't get really bad until we played an actual opponent that could rush the quarterback (Philly), and that's when Campbell started to run for his life -- literally. But that doesn't mean Gaines Adams (RIP), Cliff Avril, and Ryan Sims weren't exploiting match-ups that simply didn't exist for them in 15 other games.

Now, as Slingin Sammy and myself can both verify, pressure was not the primary determinant on any of Campbell's three picks in the TB game. It was, however, the primary determinant on the pick in the DET game. But more than forcing turnovers, pressure just kills the rhythm of our WCO passing game.

This was post-Samuels injury, but the Kansas City game was probably the lowpoint of my fanship with the Redskins. That team has 31 sacks in the last two seasons. That's the worst two season stretch since the statistic was recorded. Three off those 31 game in that game, and they got a game clinching forced fumble on Todd Collins. All three sacks came on a three man rush. I love Samuels as much as the next guy, but he would just have been completely out of place in that mess.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;664618]In a few years? Dude he is 28 years old.. How much more time does this guy need? I like JC but his time is up in D.C, and yes I agree with you but Campbell is worth atleast a 2nd round pick.. Anyone who takes a beaten like JC did last year deserves a good pick lol.[/quote]

I'm not saying he will succeed in Was man butwith all the OC and HC hae has had to face the kid is a mess he needs at least 2 more years in a system that fits him so he can lead a team....

If I was your team I would put a equal tender o nthe kid (1st) which would be cheaper no way anybody trade a 1st for him... and I would draft a young futre QB... I keep him for thsi year under Shanahan and see if he sees anything o nthe kid if not it gives me a year to groom the replacement

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

I agree, If someone offered a 2nd or 3rd, I could see us trading him away. Honestly I think he deserves a shot at another team, i've heard around here that STL is interested in Campbell, also Buffalo is as well. I would deal him if we are going to draft Bradford. He could come in as a rookie and do a decent job (Sanchez, Flacco, Ryan) . Clausen? I dont know for sure..

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=Son Of Man;664601]Thank you! Ben Rothlisberger and Aaron Rogers seem to be able to elevate their play with sub-par lines...why do we excuse JC's mediocrity?[/quote]

The difference was the time they were given to throw. Ben and Rogers were able to complete 7 step drops. Their style is high risk high reward. Either they get sacked or a receiver breaks open and the offense gets a big completion.

JC behind our O-Line wasn't even able to complete much more then a 3 step drop. Thats the difference.

I'm not the biggest JC supporter but comparing JC to Big Ben and Rodgers because all three were frequently sacked isn't the way to go about arguing against JC.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=mlmdub130;663740]we already have, he was just on ir last year[/quote]


Brennan isn't the man. Bradford had a stacked hand, but still faced a lot tougher opponents than Colt ever did. If we didn't take Brennan he would have gone undrafted. For a guy that set all those passing records at Hawaii, don't you think the other 31 teams passing him up would send you up some red flags? The only thing he had on Chase Daniel last season was size. If Chase was 6'3" or 6'4" Brennan would have been the one to get a SB ring.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=GTripp0012;664611][B]2009 Sack Rates[/B]

Jason Campbell: 7.8%, 550 dropbacks
Aaron Rodgers: 8.5%, 591 dropbacks
Ben Roethlisberger: 9.0%, 556 dropbacks

Who made what look good again?[/quote]
yeah they got hit more, but also put up better numbers

either way, great QB or not you shouldn't put up with that type of line if you care about your QB

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;664643]I agree, If someone offered a 2nd or 3rd, I could see us trading him away. Honestly I think he deserves a shot at another team, i've heard around here that STL is interested in Campbell, also Buffalo is as well. I would deal him if we are going to draft Bradford. He could come in as a rookie and do a decent job (Sanchez, Flacco, Ryan) . Clausen? I dont know for sure..[/quote]


Big if Okie if he could(Bradford doing a good job as a rook). Ryan's and Flacco's sophmore seasons weren't so hot as their debut seasons. Ryan is a true QB. Flacco is just a game manager with a great supporting cast. Sanchez to me is somewhere in the middle, but closer to Flacco as being a game manager. I don't think Bradford will have the wideouts that Ryan has to do a lot of damage if he starts next season, that is if we draft him.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=D'BOYZ;664614]who's going to pay a 1st and 3rd for campbell he wasn't even worht the 1st yo uused nthe first place... he's an ok QB could be good i na few years maybe i nthe right system but no way worth a 1st and 3rd right now.... maybe a 3rd only.[/quote]
jesus christ my screen is half red from the underlines of your shitty spelling

I'm more offended that you have no clue how the tender system works though

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=tryfuhl;664671]jesus christ my screen is half red from the underlines of your shitty spelling

I'm more offended that you have no clue how the tender system works though[/quote]

I'm actually amazed that so many don't seem to understand about the way the tenders work. This isn't anything new.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=Mattyk;664716]I'm actually amazed that so many don't seem to understand about the way the tenders work. This isn't anything new.[/quote]

I'm amazed that some people don't understand the concept of a restricted free agent, and that getting an RFA would typically consist of giving up a draft pick(s) in order to get them.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

We could use a free agency FAQ, I'm too lazy to put it together though. And it's really just a Google away anyway so I don't feel bad for slapping someone down who doesn't do a basic search before chiming in with their "knowledge".

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=Mattyk;664742]We could use a free agency FAQ, I'm too lazy to put it together though. And it's really just a Google away anyway so I don't feel bad for slapping someone down who doesn't do a basic search before chiming in with their "knowledge".[/quote]

Is there a program you can apply where if someone repeatedly makes propositions that have been thoroughly explained over and over why they won't work, and they completely ignore them and keep posting the same ridiculous propositions, that their keyboards can be set to shock them back to reality upon contact? :)

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=53Fan;664758]Is there a program you can apply where if someone repeatedly makes propositions that have been thoroughly explained over and over why they won't work, and they completely ignore them and keep posting the same ridiculous propositions, that their keyboards can be set to shock them back to reality upon contact? :)[/quote]

That would be a nice gimmick. I'd like for every person who proposes for our team to go after a RFA to get shocked.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=53Fan;664758]Is there a program you can apply where if someone repeatedly makes propositions that have been thoroughly explained over and over why they won't work, and they completely ignore them and keep posting the same ridiculous propositions, that their keyboards can be set to shock them back to reality upon contact? :)[/quote]

At the least I wish people would read a bit more before posting. So often the answers are right there. Makes you feel like you're talking to yourself sometimes with the way people post the same stuff over and over that's already been addressed, often just a few posts earlier.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=Mattyk;664761]At the least I wish people would read a bit more before posting. So often the answers are right there. Makes you feel like you're talking to yourself sometimes with [B]the way people post the same stuff over and over that's already been addressed, often just a few posts earlier[/B].[/quote]

I think that's what gets me the most. Reading can be educational fella's.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

I was just thinking, what about a program that sends a shock feedback to people repeating the same proposition over and over, and not taking time to read the discussions even one or two p [aarrgh] why did my computer shock me, anyway, like i was saying- one or two posts bef[AAARRRRGGHH], my computer must be f'ed up..

SO if Matty could find a program that would shoc [AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGHHHHHHH]
D*** COMPUTER!!

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;664768]I was just thinking, what about a program that sends a shock feedback to people repeating the same proposition over and over, and not taking time to read the discussions even one or two p [aarrgh] why did my computer shock me, anyway, like i was saying- one or two posts bef[AAARRRRGGHH], my computer must be f'ed up..

SO if Matty could find a program that would shoc [AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGHHHHHHH]
D*** COMPUTER!![/quote]

YEAH! Got one!!!

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=Mattyk;664742]We could use a free agency FAQ, I'm too lazy to put it together though. And it's really just a Google away anyway so I don't feel bad for slapping someone down who doesn't do a basic search before chiming in with their "knowledge".[/quote]
Exactly

"well I didn't know so..."

what other presentations do you do without actually looking into something? is that how proposals go in the rest of the world?

I realize that this is more of a casual site based on more of a hobby or interest but dang

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=tryfuhl;664671]jesus christ my screen is half red from the underlines of your shitty spelling

I'm more offended that you have no clue how the tender system works though[/quote]

OFFCOURSE I KNOW HOW A TENDER SYSTEM WORKS.... first he hasn't been placed a 1st & 3rd round tender so saying that there's no need for dan Snyder to give him that tender it's not out of the question.

First you have to decide 1 thing do you want him back or prefer to get something out of him, If you want to keep him how much is he worth in the aspect of what teams would be willing to give for him.

Putting a same pick tender which is the normal tender would give you guys a 1st round pick if a team would offer a contract you wouldn't want to match but in case nobody would want to sign him it would cost less to keep him than a 1st and 3rd round tender which is the highest.

I don't see a team paying a 1st round pick for campbell less a 1st and 3rd and if Dan wants to trade him it gives him less leverage if he puts a the highest tender because less people would knock on his door because of what he would like to trade for ( at least a 1st round in this case)..... putting a same pick tender which is the less value type of tender gives him two options keep him cheap or get value for him a 2nd or 3rd round pick in a trade.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=D'BOYZ;664804]OFFCOURSE I KNOW HOW A TENDER SYSTEM WORKS.... first he hasn't been placed a 1st & 3rd round tender so saying that there's no need for dan Snyder to give him that tender it's not out of the question.

First you have to decide 1 thing do you want him back or prefer to get something out of him, If you want to keep him how much is he worth in the aspect of what teams would be willing to give for him.

Putting a same pick tender which is the normal tender would give you guys a 1st round pick if a team would offer a contract you wouldn't want to match but in case nobody would want to sign him it would cost less to keep him than a 1st and 3rd round tender which is the highest.

[B]I don't see a team paying a 1st round pick for campbell less a 1st and 3rd and if Dan wants to trade him it gives him less leverage if he puts a the highest tender because less people would knock on his door because of what he would like to trade for ( at least a 1st round in this case)..... putting a same pick tender which is the less value type of tender gives him two options keep him cheap or get value for him a 2nd or 3rd round pick in a trade.[/B][/quote]

No.

The tender has virtually nothing to do with trade value. The Skins can tag Campbell with a first and third tender and then trade him for a Snickers bar if they like.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=D'BOYZ;664804][B]OFFCOURSE I KNOW HOW A TENDER SYSTEM WORKS[/B]....[/quote]

Is that your final answer?

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

d boyz - read up on matt schaub and cassel's tender/tags then trades.

you can tender a player for a 1st and 3rd (or fran tag them), then trade them for whatever you want. it doesnt have to be a 1st and 3rd.

the difference in salary owed to JC under a "same pick" or "1st & 3rd tender" is minimal. like 100k difference.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

I think the tender reflects more about the team's "respect" for keeping their player. As many have pointed out, a trade can be made for anything once the tender is in place. So the question is can you avoid a JCutler scenario where JC feels put down by the tender level. Having said that JC has been thrown under the bus so many times here, that it will be in MS/BA's hands to make sure that if he ends up staying he doesn't end up becoming a distraction, even that is not his natural tendency.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

yes they can do that but it's less likely somebody would ask for him or the settle for a 5th round pick after they put his value at 1 and 3 just plain logic. If you place the value of you player at 1 and 3 you can move down and as for only a 1st maybe a second but no GM would take a 3rd or less for a player they valued at 1 and 3

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=D'BOYZ;664829]yes they can do that but it's less likely somebody would ask for him or the settle for a 5th round pick after they put his value at 1 and 3 just plain logic. If you place the value of you player at 1 and 3 you can move down and as for only a 1st maybe a second but no GM would take a 3rd or less for a player they valued at 1 and 3[/quote]
In a normal situation, maybe. But, the Skins relationship with JC has been so muddied and botched, that most teams are more likely to lowball the Skins, then offer a tender based trade. IMO of course

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

the skins tendering JC at a 1st and 3rd is not a reflection that they value him as being worth a 1st and 3rd. that is the best tender to put him on.

JC gets the most money possible out of the tag/tender options so he has to be somewhat content even if it is just 3.2 mil for 2010. so the skins show JC some respect, maybe keep him happy that he recieved the highest tender, but it is still chump change for an nfl qb.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=D'BOYZ;664829]yes they can do that but it's less likely somebody would ask for him or the settle for a 5th round pick after they put his value at 1 and 3 just plain logic. If you place the value of you player at 1 and 3 you can move down and as for only a 1st maybe a second but no GM would take a 3rd or less for a player they valued at 1 and 3[/quote]

Brandon Lloyd was given a 1st round tender by the 49ers but the Skins got him for a 3rd and 4th rounder.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

GM's put a franchise tag of 1 and 3 on a player usually that's hot and lots of teams want. Either they want to scare other GM's away or ask for a lot in a trade the 1 and 3 it's used from hot players like a Miles Austin right now. Or Schuabb whe he was traded they had showed enough for teams really want him and in the case of Atlanta get a lot of value for a guy that at the time was worth more to them as a trade than a player.

putting a tag of 1st and 3rd that nobody sees he's worth that it's useless and a bad GM move

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=Mattyk;664834]Brandon Lloyd was given a 1st round tender by the 49ers but the Skins got him for a 3rd and 4th rounder.[/quote]

yes mattyk but was only a ist round tender which is what I was saying if you put a 1st only you could take a 3rd and 4th for the guy but if you put the highest multiple tender on the guy you can't take less than a 2nd round pick and I don't know if a team will offer a second for Campbell...

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=Lotus;664820]
The Skins can [B]tag Campbell[/B] with a first and third tender and [B]then trade[/B] him [B]for[/B] [B]a Snickers bar[/B] if they like.[/quote]


I hear Dan likes Snicker. Hungry [I][B]why wait? :banghead:[/B][/I]

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=D'BOYZ;664839]yes mattyk but was only a ist round tender which is what I was saying if you put a 1st only you could take a 3rd and 4th for the guy but if you put the highest multiple tender on the guy you can't take less than a 2nd round pick and I don't know if a team will offer a second for Campbell...[/quote]

Honestly I don't think a 2nd would be that crazy considering the thin QB market.

In the end though I think the high tender shows JC that the team wants him back for one year at least, and it gives him a decent paycheck that works for both sides.