Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Chico23231;809195]I think the year Moss set the record for 23 TD catches in a season, the same year TO lead the league in drops. Maybe im a year off. Dominance does not equal one trick pony. Moss is a huge prick, but imo TO was/is a locker room cancer which is way worse. Like I said, you can easily argue TO 2nd greatest all time, Id prefer Moss all day long. And yeah, Id probably take Moss over Steve Largent.[/quote]

You mean the same Moss that gave up on the Vikings (the infamous time he walked out of the field before the game was over during a Redskins/Vikes game) and didn't even try with the Raiders? I'm not going to deny Moss' abilities, but come on he was no saint. I think Moss got really lucky to land with a team like the Pats. But he was a bit of a one-trick pony, of course I would take that trick any time (you could just fling a bomb downfield to Moss and he would beat any receiver to catch it). But TO could do more, as it is seen by his YAC stats.

In the end, both TO and Moss are very good receivers. If you take out their attitudes...I would lean slightly towards TO. But, their numbers are pretty similar, and it seems silly to make one out much better than the other:


----Gm--|--Rec--|--Yds----|-Y/G-|-Avg--|-Lg-|-YAC-|-1Dw-|-TD
TO: 219-|-1078--|-15934---|-72.8-|-14.8-|-98-|-5.3-|-742-|-153
RM: 202-|-954---|-14858---|-73.6-|-15.6-|-82-|-3.9-|-682-|-153

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;809198]You mean the same Moss that gave up on the Vikings (the infamous time he walked out of the field before the game was over during a Redskins/Vikes game) and didn't even try with the Raiders? I'm not going to deny Moss' abilities, but come on he was no saint. I think Moss got really lucky to land with a team like the Pats. But he was a bit of a one-trick pony, of course I would take that trick any time (you could just fling a bomb downfield to Moss and he would beat any receiver to catch it). But TO could do more, as it is seen by his YAC stats.

In the end, both TO and Moss are very good receivers. If you take out their attitudes...I would lean slightly towards TO. But, their numbers are pretty similar, and [B]it seems silly to make one out much better than the other[/B]:


----Gm--|--Rec--|--Yds----|-Y/G-|-Avg--|-Lg-|-YAC-|-1Dw-|-TD
TO: 219-|-1078--|-15934---|-72.8-|-14.8-|-98-|-5.3-|-742-|-153
RM: 202-|-954---|-14858---|-73.6-|-15.6-|-82-|-3.9-|-682-|-153[/quote]



No it must be done to satisfy the Football Gods

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Chico23231;809202]No it must be done to satisfy the Football Gods[/quote]

:lol:

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=freddyg12;809180]That's certainly not my point, or at least I would state it differently. Not saying don't let him in the hall cause he's a prick. I would "dock him" on job performance. His job performance, which for ally players includes interviews, teammate relationships & sideline conduct, was harmful to his teams.

Rather than debate "character" just look at what the guy did for his teams. He made plays but he also tore a couple teams apart.[/quote]

His job performance is judged by what he did on the field and nothing else. Like I said; tons of pricks in the Hall of Fame. Tons of guys who didn't have the best relationships with their teammates, didn't handle themselves the best way in interviews, weren't boy scouts on or off the field.

I mean maybe that's the way it should be, but that's not the way it is, And there's plenty of guys without outstanding character who don't make it while total jerks do.

The Hall of Fame and it's voting process are nutty. Should he be first ballot based on his numbers? Yes. Should he be based on his overall impact on football teams? Probably not. But the voting process is so frakked up that it's hard to guess what they'll be thinking.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

Without a Doubt!!!

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Mattyk;808933][url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/29/t-o-should-be-a-first-ballot-hall-of-famer-but/]T.O. should be a first-ballot Hall of Famer, but . . . . | ProFootballTalk[/url]

I think he should be without a doubt, his numbers are undeniable, what do you think?[/quote]

[url=http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Alex-Marvez-Terrell-Owens-strange-career-takes-bizarre-turn-with-knee-injury-062711]Terrell Owens' strange career takes perhaps its final turn with knee injury - NFL News | FOX Sports on MSN[/url]

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

There's no question he's first ballot HOF. For the better part of his career he was no worse than the third best WR in the game and a convincing argument can be made that he was the best-better than Moss and Harrison. He put up monster numbers in spite of mostly mediocre QBs (after Steve Young) that he played with.

I wouldn't want him mentoring young WR on teamwork but he's an all time great.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

First ballot, IMO, No. Within 1-2 years afterwards, definitely. First ballot is a special honor, with no SBs and being a less than stellar teammate, I'd make him wait. No question he was a dominant WR in his era and deserves to be in the HoF.

Rice as unquestioned WR GOAT...definitely debateable. He played with not only two HoF QBs, but was caoched by one of the most innovative minds to ever walk the sideline. Here are some others that deserve to be in that conversation:

Charley Taylor
Randy Moss
and yes...Don Hutson.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Mattyk;809050]If I was a team that was close and needed a big time WR to get over the top, I'd take him for a one year rental only.[/quote]

Matty, you think he should be a hall of famer, yet you'd only take him for a "one year rental" & that's only if the team is close to winning it all.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

Freddy,

I am in the same boat as Matty. I think TO should be a shoe-in for the HOF, but the HOF is a full career consideration. TO is older now and not at the same level as maybe 2-4 years ago. That's why you take him for a year.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=hooskins;809409]Freddy,

I am in the same boat as Matty. I think TO should be a shoe-in for the HOF, but the HOF is a full career consideration. TO is older now and not at the same level as maybe 2-4 years ago. That's why you take him for a year.[/quote]

He may be totally done now. My question was "in his prime" would you take him, not now. I would hope we all at least agree that the skins shouldn't even talk to rosenhaus about him!

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

Last year I wanted him. I won't lie. Granted, I was a little less...knowledgable about things, I suppose. But yeah, I still wanted him. T.O, Moss, Armstrong and Cooley? You kidding me? Shhoooooot, if T.O were healthy I'd take that line-up now.

...This is why I will never and should never be a GM.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=freddyg12;809406]Matty, you think he should be a hall of famer, yet you'd only take him for a "one year rental" & that's only if the team is close to winning it all.[/quote]

You're talking about two different things.

Based on his production, he's a clear cut HOF'er.

Based on what we know about his behavior, I would only want him as a rented gun on an established team with strong leadership.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=NLC1054;809419]Last year I wanted him. I won't lie. Granted, I was a little less...knowledgable about things, I suppose. But yeah, I still wanted him. T.O, Moss, Armstrong and Cooley? You kidding me? Shhoooooot, if T.O were healthy I'd take that line-up now.

...This is why I will never and should never be a GM.[/quote]

If your trying to build a team the last thing you need is TO or say like a Hanyesworth, oh wait...

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Mattyk;809420]You're talking about two different things.

Based on his production, he's a clear cut HOF'er.

Based on what we know about his behavior, I would only want him as a rented gun on an established team with strong leadership.[/quote]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I don't think so, and that's my point, he should be judged by his impact on his teams, which includes both great plays & shenanigans on & off the field. You can't separate his production from his behavior. While some here have said the hall is not based on "character" I agree, but it can be based on something simple like helping your team win. I would argue he countered all of his positives equally or more so w/negatives in that area. [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]This will be an interesting one for Hall voters. They've shown that a player's [I]personal[/I] problems off the field have not kept them out of the hall, but have they ever dealt w/a player who's conduct on & off field was so detrimental to his team?[/FONT][/COLOR]

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

Coming to this one late.. but I agree w/ freddyg12's assessment. I get that off-the-field character issues (for example - Lawrence Taylor) are not considered. TO's character issues, however, affected his team's play on the field and had a negative effect on the long term stability of those teams and their ability to remain competitive.

TO blew up a competitive SF team by forcing a competent starter out of town and was, as I recall, accused fostering/creating a negative "me-first" attitude amongst the young receivers. In Philly, yes - they got to the SB with him BUT, after that, he [I]again[/I] tosses his QB under the bus, gets suspended for insubordination, and creates a situation where he cannot remain as part of the team. Rinse, Recycle and repeat in Dallas. Teams find ways to keep guys who, in their prime, are going to be HOF'ers. In TO's case, teams looked for ways to get rid of him.

How many HOF'ers [I]had[/I] to be cut to preserve the team? Maybe there are some, I can't think of any. Someone name me a player in the HOF that was as big a team cancer as TO - not someone who was a jackass or who was difficult - someone who forced teams to dump the player and reconstruct themselves as a team.

I am sorry, HOF'ers (certainly first ballot HOF'ers) do not create destructive team situations. TO did just that.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;809452]Coming to this one late.. but I agree w/ freddyg12's assessment. I get that off-the-field character issues (for example - Lawrence Taylor) are not considered. TO's character issues, however, affected his team's play on the field and had a negative effect on the long term stability of those teams and their ability to remain competitive.

TO blew up a competitive SF team by forcing a competent starter out of town and was, as I recall, accused fostering/creating a negative "me-first" attitude amongst the young receivers. In Philly, yes - they got to the SB with him BUT, after that, he [I]again[/I] tosses his QB under the bus, gets suspended for insubordination, and creates a situation where he cannot remain as part of the team. Rinse, Recycle and repeat in Dallas. Teams find ways to keep guys who, in their prime, are going to be HOF'ers. In TO's case, teams looked for ways to get rid of him.

How many HOF'ers [I]had[/I] to be cut to preserve the team? Maybe there are some, I can't think of any. Someone name me a player in the HOF that was as big a team cancer as TO - not someone who was a jackass or who was difficult - someone who forced teams to dump the player and reconstruct themselves as a team.

I am sorry, HOF'ers (certainly first ballot HOF'ers) do not create destructive team situations. TO did just that.[/quote]

Nice Joe! well said, thanks.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=freddyg12;809437][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I don't think so, and that's my point, he should be judged by his impact on his teams, which includes both great plays & shenanigans on & off the field. You can't separate his production from his behavior. While some here have said the hall is not based on "character" I agree, but it can be based on something simple like helping your team win. I would argue he countered all of his positives equally or more so w/negatives in that area. [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]This will be an interesting one for Hall voters. They've shown that a player's [I]personal[/I] problems off the field have not kept them out of the hall, but have they ever dealt w/a player who's conduct on & off field was so detrimental to his team?[/FONT][/COLOR][/quote]

I still view the issues separately. In many instances his production trumped his PIA factor, sometimes not, but overall his production is just undeniable.

So do you think he's a HOF player or no?

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

After C. Carter, M. Harrison, T. Brown, A. Reed. But not in front of any of them. If they are all in by the time he is eligible, he still needs to sit a couple years.

If I was voter, I would eventually vote for him, holding my nose the entire time. He is the antithesis of team in a team game.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

I don't remember TO blowing up a competitive San Fran team

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;809479]I don't remember TO blowing up a competitive San Fran team[/quote]

I think the tales of T.O destroying locker rooms is overblown sometimes. Wasn't he a team captain in Dallas? And wasn't here there for a while before they finally let him go?

It seems like he gets in trouble with coaches, maybe with F.O, but I don't know how many players would say T.O was a bad teammate. Well, except for McNabb. He wants the ball, sure. He DEMANDS the ball.

But all elite receivers want the ball. Jerry Rice wanted the ball. Hell, part of the reason he left San Fransisco was because T.O was getting the ball. Some receivers are more vocal than others, and his antics get him a bad wrap, but all those number one guys are going to complain when they don't get the ball thrown their way.

T.O won't make it in on the first go around, but he should be worth of consideration to make it in the first time around.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;809479]I don't remember TO blowing up a competitive San Fran team[/quote]

In 2001 SF was 12-4
2002 SF was 10-6
2003 SF was 7-9

In each of those years Garcia was QB and Owens the leading receiver. In the 2002, after a play-off loss Owens started in on Garcia. During 2003, as I recall, Owens was constantly making accusations and insinuations about Garcia's ability calling for him to be replaced by that HOF'er in the making Tim Rattay. After the 2003 season both Garcia & Owens left SF - Marriuci fleeing the year before. Again, as I recall, it was a messy divorce all the way around - made messier by Owens usual antics. The 49'ers went 2-14 & 4-12 the following two years. Sure, it wasn't all Owens - but he seemed to be the catalyst.

[quote]Typical Terrell Owens in this relationship. Jeff Garcia and T.O. led the San Francisco 49ers into the playoffs, where they beat the New York Giants. The next game they lost against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

All fingers were pointed at Garcia by T.O. and he eventually called Garcia some very disrespectful names. This relationship ended shortly after that. Off to the Philadelphia Eagles for Owens.[/quote]

[url=http://bleacherreport.com/articles/587550-terrell-owens-ochocinco-and-the-worst-combos-in-sports-history#/articles/587550-terrell-owens-ochocinco-and-the-worst-combos-in-sports-history/page/10]Worse Than Michael Jordan Playing Baseball: The Worst Combos In Sports History | Bleacher Report[/url]

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;809509]In 2001 SF was 12-4
2002 SF was 10-6
2003 SF was 7-9

In each of those years Garcia was QB and Owens the leading receiver. In the 2002, after a play-off loss Owens started in on Garcia. During 2003, as I recall, Owens was constantly making accusations and insinuations about Garcia's ability calling for him to be replaced by that HOF'er in the making Tim Rattay. After the 2003 season both Garcia & Owens left SF - Marriuci fleeing the year before. Again, as I recall, it was a messy divorce all the way around - made messier by Owens usual antics. The 49'ers went 2-14 & 4-12 the following two years. Sure, it wasn't all Owens - but he seemed to be the catalyst.



[url=http://bleacherreport.com/articles/587550-terrell-owens-ochocinco-and-the-worst-combos-in-sports-history#/articles/587550-terrell-owens-ochocinco-and-the-worst-combos-in-sports-history/page/10]Worse Than Michael Jordan Playing Baseball: The Worst Combos In Sports History | Bleacher Report[/url][/quote]

I think you're giving TO too much credit here. San Fran was crippled by salary cap woes, aging veterans, poor draft picks, little to no confidence in Mariucci, among other things. And the first time TO really said anything about Garcia was after they were teammates in his Playboy interview.

Plus, Garcia was just as vocal a critic as TO of the offense.

And I don't know that he was constantly calling for Rattay to start, but that he did well when pressed to play

[url=http://www.usatoday.com/sports/scores103/103271/20030928NFL--MINNESOTA-0nr.htm]USATODAY.com[/url]

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

Perhaps - I am operating mostly from memory (I remember Garcia's father being quoted as saying something like "He [Owens] should just shut up and catch the ball"). Yes, SF had issues and were on there way down with or without TO and maybe my "I hate Owens" is slipping in to cloud my memory. So to say he blew up a competetive team may be an overstatement of his influence and of the caliber of team. At the same time, he made sure he was persona non grata in SF and, to my mind, was a major reason why Garcia left.

As I said, based on my recollection of the events, Owens seemed to be the catalyst for the implosion and certainly did nothing to hinder it.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=Mattyk;809464]I still view the issues separately. In many instances his production trumped his PIA factor, sometimes not, but overall his production is just undeniable.

So do you think he's a HOF player or no?[/quote]

Obviously I think he shouldn't be & I think his case could provide the hall w/some new guidance for evaluation. But if your question is do I think he'll get in? Definintely not first ballot but he's likely to get in several years later cause time heals all wounds. also, the wr position is one that is debated by hall voters a lot it seems. Will be interesting to watch this one.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;809513]Perhaps - I am operating mostly from memory (I remember Garcia's father being quoted as saying something like "He [Owens] should just shut up and catch the ball"). Yes, SF had issues and were on there way down with or without TO and maybe my "I hate Owens" is slipping in to cloud my memory. So to say he blew up a competetive team may be an overstatement of his influence and of the caliber of team. At the same time, he made sure he was persona non grata in SF and, to my mind, was a major reason why Garcia left.

As I said, based on my recollection of the events, Owens seemed to be the catalyst for the implosion and certainly did nothing to hinder it.[/quote]

Garcia left because he wouldn't agree to another contract restructuring so the Niners let him go for cap considerations. Plus, it'd be tough to say TO forced Garcia out, or was a major reason he left, since they both left within a couple of days of each other

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;809531]Garcia left because he wouldn't agree to another contract restructuring so the Niners let him go for cap considerations. Plus, it'd be tough to say TO forced Garcia out, or was a major reason he left, since they both left within a couple of days of each other[/quote]

I think Joe's overall point isn't much debated though, TO began his public airing of grievances w/his QBs w/Garcia, even insinuating he was gay.

Re: Should T.O. be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
 

[quote=freddyg12;809534]I think Joe's overall point isn't much debated though, TO began his public airing of grievances w/his QBs w/Garcia, even insinuating he was gay.[/quote]

Yeah after they were both no longer teammates, TO made an unnecessary comment in response to a question specifically asking if Garcia was gay. That's not the same as he destroyed a good 49ers team and was the catalyst for Garcia leaving and the franchise falling apart.