Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Chico23231;828835]CB play was the least responsible area for that entire unit's 31st ranking. Saftey, LB and a league worst DL far more responsible for that ranking. Maybe if Fat Alberta woulda acted like a man maybe the DL woulda been better.[/quote]Okay, I get it, its everyone elses fault but Hall that Hall gave up a lot of yards. This is the argument I'm ultimately talking to a wall against. Hall's yards against are not Hall's fault. They're Albert's fault, Moore's fault, Carlos' fault, Haslett's fault. Hall makes big plays. Everyone else makes him look bad. DeAngelo just cant catch a break.

I'm not here to defend his teammates though. I just think that the guys who didnt play college ball locally are better Redskins than we give them credit for at times.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=12thMan;828833]In some sense I even take exception to that comparison for many reasons. But namely I can't remember one game where Jason Campbell put the team on his back and single-handedly drove the team to victory or he was the deciding factor in a victorious outcome. I think it's safe to say, D.Hall has produced a few of those games in his short time as a Redskin.

But I'm done with this thread and this argument. I'm starting to sound like D.Hall is the second coming of Christ and that's not the position I'm taking at all.[/quote]

I think Lotus was talking about just being a polarizing player. The loudest people in this argument are the ones that think that Hall is the best CB of all time AND those who think Hall is destroying the Redskins worst than Vinny. But yeah, this thread and this argument is getting a bit tiring. I'm ready for the season to start and root for all the players in the Redskins roster.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

Do I even need to show up in this thread with video evidence or is Tripp handling business?

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;828838]Okay, I get it, its everyone elses fault but Hall that Hall gave up a lot of yards. This is the argument I'm ultimately talking to a wall against. Hall's yards against are not Hall's fault. They're Albert's fault, Moore's fault, Carlos' fault, Haslett's fault. Hall makes big plays. Everyone else makes him look bad. DeAngelo just cant catch a break.

I'm not here to defend his teammates though. I just think that the guys who didnt play college ball locally are better Redskins than we give them credit for at times.[/quote]

Ohhhhhhhh its because he is a Va Tech player........wow Tripp :doh:

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;828831]What in the heck did bucket produce?? How is that any way comparable to what I did. It's disrespectful to me that you'd consider that similar. He's talking about individual honors bestowed upon a player while I'm talking about on-field performance. Things that happen during games.

Which matters more? This is not a trick question.[/quote]

If you feel disrespected, then with all due respect, you're probably taking this a little too personally and have placed yourself higher than you ought to. And if you feel that the stats that you've produced are somehow superior than Bucket's, or for that matter the same stats I've mentioned in another thread, then, again, I really don't know what to say about that.

But let's agree on this -- we all want the Redskins defense to be as dominant as they can as a unit, not prizing individual performances that rarely yield championships or playoff appearances. In short, I have no interest in seeing D.Hall kill it this year for the sole purpose of coming here to thump my chest and say I told you so.

Edit: Tripp, for what it's worth you're obviously a sharp dude and I got mad respect for your game, we just don't see eye to eye on this one.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

I would put Hall squarely behind the following without any hesitation, and believe there would be little argument from anyone on these:

D. Green
Champ Bailey
Pat Fischer
Paul Krause
Joe Lavender
Mike Bass
Sammy Baugh (if he's considered a CB and not a S)

I would rather have these guys as my # 1 corner instead of Hall (each considered in his prime, without injury), but as I have said before, my preference is for "more substance, less style" type of CBs. That being said, it is debateable who is "better" in terms of overall contribution to the Skins.

S. Springs
C. Rogers
Tom Carter

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=NC_Skins;828841]Do I even need to show up in this thread with video evidence or is Tripp handling business?[/quote]

I think both sides are doing a job with this. Honestly, this is getting a bit tiring and I think both sides should agree to disagree and end it.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Bucket;828480]Well considering we don't have a lot of man coverage's in Haslett's new defense I would say Hall hasn't done a lot of Man coverage over the year. I would say that Hall excels in our new defensive scheme.[/quote]There's a great deal of Man coverage in Haslett's scheme. I agree with you, to get the most out of Hall, he is better in Man coverage.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;828865]There's a great deal of Man coverage in Haslett's scheme. I agree with you, to get the most out of Hall, he is better in Man coverage.[/quote]

I wonder if Haslett will call man coverage a lot during the first couple of games, since the starting secondary hasn't had any playing/practice time together. I think he should.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

It's real simple. How many points and time of possession(and sometimes field position) has Hall provided FOR the Redskins vs how many points and/or time of possession Hall helped give to the opponent. Even if Hall doesn't "fully contribute" to a score or more ToP, he still partitially contributes on plays where he is involved. Picks are valuable, but if that same player is coughing up points or helping the opposing O extend drives, the player's net benefit to the team is not as high.

And really, the ultimate pinnacle for a CB is when he become "untouchable", a state in which opposing offenses won't EVEN try to test him because he causes a "failed play" for an offense so frequently. Hall certainly has not reached that level, and he's at the age where one can safely say he never will. And a shitty team around him is not an excuse. Nnamdi was not tested much in Oakland, despite their porous run D, terrible offense, and awful "culture".

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

The WP should collect donations for a D-Hall film thread. We pay for someone to go to every Skins game with a HD cam and top level 50 yr line seats. We will have a sticky thread in which Dirtbag will edit videos while 44ever(and now 12th I guess) and Gtripp will provide opening arguments.

We have to put this to rest.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Bucket;828480]Well considering we don't have a lot of man coverage's in Haslett's new defense I would say Hall hasn't done a lot of Man coverage over the year. I would say that Hall excels in our new defensive scheme. I'm also excited about Wilson and I think between the two of them. We will have a lot of turnovers this year.[/quote]

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;828865]There's a great deal of Man coverage in Haslett's scheme. I agree with you, to get the most out of Hall, he is better in Man coverage.[/quote]

I LOL at both of these. Guess what the Raiders play a lot of? You guessed it. Man coverage. Guess who got burned so badly and so often that he was also ranked one of the worst CBs in the league during his 8 games with the Raiders? Hall? Bingo.
[url=http://www.raidersgab.com/2011/06/18/routt-says-raiders-play-almost-all-man-to-man-coverage/]Routt Says Raiders Play Almost All Man to Man Coverage » Raiders Gab[/url]



Most Hall fanboys say he didn't excel in man coverage and was best suited for zone (which he plays now) which is why he did bad in Oakland. Now that he's doing bad here, it's switched to the opposite that he's better at man, but we play a lot of zone. :doh:

For a team to trade a 2nd rounder for a CB and give him a 7yr/70million contract and dump him after 8 games, it sure says a lot about D. Hall. Not only that, but HE CLEARED WAIVERS. How many #1 CBs clear waivers?...lol

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;828866]I wonder if Haslett will call man coverage a lot during the first couple of games, since the starting secondary hasn't had any playing/practice time together. I think he should.[/quote]Agree 100%. Coverage has to be simplified early on until LL & OJA in particular are settled in.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=NC_Skins;828871]Most Hall fanboys say he didn't excel in man coverage and was best suited for zone (which he plays now) which is why he did bad in Oakland. Now that he's doing bad here, it's switched to the opposite that he's better at man, but we play a lot of zone. :doh:

For a team to trade a 2nd rounder for a CB and give him a 7yr/70million contract and dump him after 8 games, it sure says a lot about D. Hall. Not only that, but HE CLEARED WAIVERS. How many #1 CBs clear waivers?...lol[/quote]Take a look at my other posts in the this thread.

Just to clarify my point, Haslett's scheme uses a variety of coverage (as any good scheme should). I expect at least 50% man coverage from the CBs. I believe Hall is best used in Man coverage because he makes more mistakes in Zone. In Man he has a simple responsibility, cover your man, no reads, no additional responsibility. What I think of Hall's Man coverage capability is another story, but if I have to "pick my poison", I put Hall in Man.

In Hall's defense, it was Al Davis who certainly doesn't personify "sound judgement" that was behind his release. And from a quick read, his release probably had a lot more to do with his contract/bonus for 2009 than his play in early 2008.

[URL="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3684396"]What gives? Oakland Raiders cut highly paid corner DeAngelo Hall - ESPN[/URL]

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;828874]In Hall's defense, it was Al Davis who certainly doesn't personify "sound judgement" that was behind his release. And from a quick read, his release probably had a lot more to do with his contract/bonus for 2009 than his play in early 2008.

[URL="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3684396"]What gives? Oakland Raiders cut highly paid corner DeAngelo Hall - ESPN[/URL][/quote]

THey had just signed that contract 8 months prior and now he's going to just up and cut the guy he traded a 2nd rounder and gave a new deal? Not hardly. This is the same guy that gave Asandi a record contract.


[url=http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12118_4461779,00.html]Raiders cut losses with Hall | Sky Sports | NFL | News[/url]


[quote]But he failed to adapt to the Raiders' man-to-man style of defense and was regularly beaten by opposition receivers during the opening half of the season.

And, with the Raiders struggling at 2-6, the decision was made to dispense with Hall's services.

"We felt like it didn't work out the way we thought it would," Raiders head coach Tom Cable said in a statement.[/quote]

It had nothing to do with his bonus. Again, he's not good a man to man either so not sure where you guys are even getting that notion from.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

Where do D. Hall discussions rate as most annoying on TheWarpath.net all time?

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

Alright I've had it with this thread.

Here's the way to settle it.

[B]To Hall apologists/fans/groupies:[/B] Hall is not the best CB ever, not the best Redskins CB ever, not even close to the top. You, like many people, are blinded by the flashiness of INTs and TDs, which clouds your view of his flaws. Also, we know that Carlos Rogers' hands, makes Hall look like the best ever. Remember that what makes him a playmaker, also makes him a liability. So your arguments that he's an elite CB are getting old. Get the F over it.

[B]To Hall haters:[/B] Get F over it too. Reasonable fans know that Hall has his flaws. But when we're drinking and Hall takes one to the house, we're going to be unreasonable and overpraise him (even if it is preseason). Also, your arguments to prove that he's not a good CB are getting old, and some of you seem to enjoy it too much. Finally, we know some of you don't like him as a person, which is fine but remember that this will bias your opinion.

Any questions?

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;828884]Where do D. Hall discussions rate as most annoying on TheWarpath.net all time?[/quote]

Good question. Here are my top 5:

1. D. Hall discussions
2. Political discussions
3. J. Campbell discussions
4. D. Snyder discussions
5. Haynesworth/McNabb discussions

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

Edit

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

I think the crux of the issue is that the hatters don't consider themselves hatters and the apologists think they're being passionate and objective.

But yeah, def in the top five most annoying threads.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

I wonder if D. Hall was the head coach if he would have just given Patrick Ramsey a chance.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;828890]Alright I've had it with this thread.

Here's the way to settle it.

[B]To Hall apologists/fans/groupies:[/B] Hall is not the best CB ever, not the best Redskins CB ever, not even close to the top. You, like many people, are blinded by the flashiness of INTs and TDs, which clouds your view of his flaws. Also, we know that Carlos Rogers' hands, makes Hall look like the best ever. Remember that what makes him a playmaker, also makes him a liability. So your arguments that he's an elite CB are getting old. Get the F over it.

[B]To Hall haters:[/B] Get F over it too. Reasonable fans know that Hall has his flaws. But when we're drinking and Hall takes one to the house, we're going to be unreasonable and overpraise him (even if it is preseason). Also, your arguments to prove that he's not a good CB are getting old, and some of you seem to enjoy it too much. Finally, we know some of you don't like him as a person, which is fine but remember that this will bias your opinion.

Any questions?[/quote]

we can now close this topic and I suggest you keep this handy. It'll be worth posting when this discussion comes up again.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;828884]Where do D. Hall discussions rate as most annoying on TheWarpath.net all time?[/quote]

+1

Seriously...

I just read this thread from start to finish and I have such a headache right now. :smashfrea

As for Hall... IMO he's a great #2 but definitely not a #1. You need a shutdown corner to shutdown one half of the field (ie Carlos in 2010). The QB will work Hall's side of the field 80% of the game and the chips will fall where they may. A good QB will usually rip DH to shreds, while a wild one (Cutler) can put his jersey in the hall of fame.

I'm not a Hall hatter, I'm a fan. He's a perfect compliment to a great #1 CB. If Hall's your #1 CB your secondary is in trouble.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;828891]5. Haynesworth/McNabb discussions[/quote]


Sup brah. U mad I'm macking white womenz?


[IMG]http://30fps.mocksession.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/2011-August-23-18-38-33.jpg[/IMG]

[quote=12thMan;828843]If you feel disrespected, then with all due respect, you're probably taking this a little too personally and have placed yourself higher than you ought to. And if you feel that the stats that you've produced are somehow superior than Bucket's, or for that matter the same stats I've mentioned in another thread, then, again, I really don't know what to say about that.

But let's agree on this -- we all want the Redskins defense to be as dominant as they can as a unit, not prizing individual performances that rarely yield championships or playoff appearances. In short, I have no interest in seeing D.Hall kill it this year for the sole purpose of coming here to thump my chest and say I told you so.[/quote]I should clarify that I don't feel personally disrespected. Really, that should be universal by now, more than 13,000 posts in. I don't feel personally disrespected about anything.

It's disrespectful to my argument to say that my evidence and someone elses evidence are basically equal. That's an easily preconcieved perspective (wow! Both these sides bring great points all the time!) that didn't reflect the reality of the situation. Really, it gives the opportunity to belittle my objectivity in the numbers as an exercise in hating. There is no better word to fit that than disrespectful. If you were respecting my ability to defend my position, I think you would have seen that most of my best points weren't even drawing responses. I mean, what can you say about the 31st defense having the corner with the highest number of passing yards against outside of, "oh, well, that makes sense."

This isn't a matter of right and wrong, it's fact vs. opinion. When the best defense of an argument that is brought up is "it's ten other guys' fault," well...okay then.

1) 5 to 10 other guys on defense are the reason that Hall gives up a lot of yards
2) if you disagree with this, you are biased

This is Bucket's argument in logical form. Is this really something you wish to defend? People like him should not ever, ever use the term bias.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;828884]Where do D. Hall discussions rate as most annoying on TheWarpath.net all time?[/quote]

Well there are plenty ahead of him.

Zorn in 09

AH last year and this year

DM this year

Brunnel when he was on the downside of his career here in Washington

CP talk the last couple of years

All of the Colt Brennan love

I had another good one but I lost it..... lol

Oh Lavar talk was getting pretty annoying a few years back.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

JC talk was getting absurd at times as well.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;828884]Where do D. Hall discussions rate as most annoying on TheWarpath.net all time?[/quote]

Easily in the top 5. I stopped paying much attention to this thread after the first page because nobody is ever going to win in this argument.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

Its understandable why DH is drawing this kind of contrast in opinion. Im not bothered by the thread topic. It will be interesting to revisit threads like this mid season. My money is on DH quieting the sceptics.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;828890]Alright I've had it with this thread.

Here's the way to settle it.

[B]To Hall apologists/fans/groupies:[/B] Hall is not the best CB ever, not the best Redskins CB ever, not even close to the top. You, like many people, are blinded by the flashiness of INTs and TDs, which clouds your view of his flaws. Also, we know that Carlos Rogers' hands, makes Hall look like the best ever. Remember that what makes him a playmaker, also makes him a liability. So your arguments that he's an elite CB are getting old. Get the F over it.

[B]To Hall haters:[/B] Get F over it too. Reasonable fans know that Hall has his flaws. But when we're drinking and Hall takes one to the house, we're going to be unreasonable and overpraise him (even if it is preseason). Also, your arguments to prove that he's not a good CB are getting old, and some of you seem to enjoy it too much. Finally, we know some of you don't like him as a person, which is fine but remember that this will bias your opinion.

Any questions?[/quote]Ruhskins, this doesn't reflect the reality of the situation at all.

There are varying levels of objectivity with any argument. No one making one side of the argument is completely without bias. Ever. But that doesn't mean this is Hall haters vs. Hall apologists. The closest thing to a real Hall hater on this site is someone like SFREDSKINS, who will put an anti-Hall comment (though usually not much of a strong one) in any Hall thread. But do people actually take offense to what he writes? No. What gets the Hall apologist up in arms is when the facts start getting rolled out, then the lines start getting drawn.

Hall haters do not exist anymore than Fletcher haters or Moss haters do. This is absolutely critical to realize. There is a reason that Hall is a polarizing character while no one gets their panties in a bunch when describing one of the five plays over the course of a season that Fletcher screws up. Fletcher is one of the most consistent play to play players in the NFL, so if I say something like, "boy, London Fletcher had a really uncharacteristically poor game," no one will ever say that I'm hating on Fletcher. If I make a different, critical observation of Hall that, "boy, DeAngelo Hall had another poor game," many people take that personally.

But all I'm doing is referencing the established fact that you admit that Hall is one of the most inconsistent players in football and Fletcher is the most consistent. This is already established. It's not an anti-Hall bias. There are not Hall haters. In both cases it is a critical bottom line evaluation of a game played by a Washington Redskin.

Until we can identify someone here as a Fletcher-hater or a Moss-hater, a Hall-hater is just a loaded term that isn't descriptive of a group of people.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

This thread sure was destined for greatness eh?

holy face palm

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Mattyk;828954]This thread sure was destined for greatness eh?

holy face palm[/quote]Very glad I didn't wake up on Friday and open that "The Redskins should release DeAngelo Hall" thread as I planned to.

Though in all honesty, the difference between a thread asking us to rate him amongst all time Skins corners and one debating the merits of releasing him aren't really going to yield a different discussion.

Which to me is sad. As long as people believe in Hall hating-strawmen, we'll never get past the big plays vs. bad coverage debate.

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;828826]LOL at pro bowl MVP. Quit with the biased crap. Stick to facts.[/QUOTE]

How can you post this and not think people would say you're hating?

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

This thread reeks of ...damn we are desperate for some damn football...we need something to fight for!!

C'mon Regular season!!

Who really gives a crap?
I could care less...just snap the damn ball already!

[QUOTE=skinsnut;828969]This thread reeks of ...damn we are desperate for some damn football...we need something to fight for!!

C'mon Regular season!!

Who really gives a crap?
I could care less...just snap the damn ball already![/QUOTE]

LOL. Hate to break it to you, but I'm sure this topic will be brought back during the regular season.


Sent from my Samsung Epic 4G.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

Didn't recap on the threads I missed while I was gone, but I'm sure it's full of Gtripp talking more about Hall and how he disappoints his greatest expectations.

I will say that we will never see eye, to eye on this subject as I support Hall and all he's done while in a Redskins uniform, and i'm excited to see what our secondary can do when we are at full strength with a great pass rush for once.

For every negative, I can bring back a positive. So i'll just let it go, and let D. Hall do the talking this season

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

So this thread hasn't crossed over into question 3 territory, but I have a feeling it might give it a run for it's money before the season's over.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;828968]How can you post this and not think people would say you're hating?[/quote]Why would they? I don't follow the thought process.

I'm a wrong to laugh up the pro bowl MVP award? Who in their right mind uses that?

How is that different from the Carlos Rogers media good guy award, something I didn't cite because it has nothing to do with anything?

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;828990]Why would they? I don't follow the thought process.[/quote]


Because you question the facts that I state about Hall, and shake your head, but bring your own to the table thinking they are better without question. Then get confused when people think you're biased because your only open minded to your own opinions and not anyone elses.

You hate Hall.. Point blank, end thread. Period.... We've come come to understand this.

To put this thread back on toward it's topic. I do think Hall has a long way to go to be compared to D. Green, and Bailey, but at 27 I think he is now going into his prime, and after having a great year last season even in one of the worse defenses, I think the only way he can go is up.

I would put him top 10 at the moment for Redskin DB greats.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Bucket;828991]Because you question the facts that I state about Hall, and shake your head, but bring your own to the table thinking they are better without question. Then get confused when people think you're biased because your only open minded to your own opinions and not anyone elses.

You hate Hall.. Point blank, end thread. Period.... We've come come to understand this.[/quote]If I hate Hall, then you hate me. Sorry, but if critical equals hate, you're a GTripp hater. End of thread.

I think if you spent less time psychoanalyzing what I think, this thread would be far more productive and less-time consuming.

Let's call this what it is: you're not biased against me. You just think I'm wrong. I'm not biased against DHall. I just think you're wrong.