Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=Evilgrin;900757]Pro football Focus had brown rated as almost the worst starting RT. Hopefully he gets pushed to being just a backup on his way out. Can they cut him next offseason? Really bummed we didn't go after Winston, seemed like a perfect fit?[/quote]They could cut him this offseason, but he'll be a burden on the cap either way.

If we cut him now, he's off the books heading into 2013. If we wait to cut him, he'll stay on the books in 2013, but we'll still save some money in that year.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=Evilgrin;900757]Pro football Focus had brown rated as almost the worst starting RT. Hopefully he gets pushed to being just a backup on his way out. Can they cut him next offseason? Really bummed we didn't go after Winston, seemed like a perfect fit?[/quote]
Me too. he got signed for a good price. We could have got him.

Chasing Ghosts?
 

Maybe they're banking on the improvement from the in house talent?

I just have a hard time believing that Jammal Brown will suddenly become the player he was 3-4 years ago.
His performance as a Redskin have been marred by subpar play and injuries.

Maybe they're counting on one of the young OTs to step and up and are counting on Jammal Brown as depth?
25 y/o Willie Smith 3 starts (-[COLOR="red"]8.2[/COLOR])*
26 y/o Tyler Polumbus 4 starts (-[COLOR="Red"]11.7[/COLOR])*
30 y/o Jamal Brown 12 starts (-[COLOR="red"]18.7[/COLOR])*
* from pff game analysis

It would be nice to have an answer as RT that was based on something more then faith/hope/potential.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

Does anyone know if Brown can play Guard? I imagine he's to tall.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

I still like David Molk C, from Michigan in the 4th.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=Evilgrin;900757]Pro football Focus had brown rated as almost the worst starting RT. Hopefully he gets pushed to being just a backup on his way out. Can they cut him next offseason? Really bummed we didn't go after Winston, seemed like a perfect fit?[/quote]

Didn't know that he was rated as the worst starting RT in the NFL. Smh. Why do we construct these contracts so idiotically...

We didn't go after winston because (I'm guessing) we thought he'd be too much money. But he signed for 4 years $22 million, which isn't that expensive at all, its just that we would have tied up close to $12 million in one position this year. It was still worth doing or just cutting jamal and taking the hit cause winston is just that good and fits our system better than any other tackle out there.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;900778]I still like David Molk C, from Michigan in the 4th.[/quote]

Two Iowa lineman that project as Guards are apparently going to be up for grabs in that 3rd to 4th round range. It seems like Wisconsin and Iowa are both making a case for O-Line U.

Anyway both Adam Gettis and Markus Zusevics fit the profile of the underweight Guard that gets good position and is able to move better then most players at their position. Markus though played RT during his time at Iowa, but according to Scouts Inc he's listed as a Guard for the next level. Either way that versatility seems to be a plus when you get evaluated by the Shanahan coaching tree.

[B][I][U]Markus Zusevics[/U][/I][/B]
[B]Height-Weight-Speed - 3 -[/B]Has frame to play either ROT or OG in the NFL. Is lighter than average but continues to add bulk to frame. Arm length (33 7/8') and hand span (9 ¾') are right on par with average OGs from last five NFL scouting combines. Speed is slightly better than average.

[B]Run Blocking - 3 - "[/B]Does a nice job with the angle of his first-step and is almost always in good initial position. Plays with very good balance. Gives good effort and works to finish, but lacks functional strength at this point. Struggles to drive defenders off the line. Unlikely to contribute in NFL if core strength does not improve but has potential to develop into a starter if it does. [I][COLOR="Blue"]Adequate mobility as a second-level blocker. Can reach second level and hit moving target but occasionally takes an incorrect angle. "[/COLOR][/I]

[B][I][U]Adam Gettis[/U][/I][/B]
[B]Height-Weight-Speed - 4 -[/B]Above average top-end speed and average height but marginal bulk. Weighed in 225-230 pound range coming out of high school and may be close to maxing out frame.

[B]Run Blocking - 2 -[/B] Never going to be a mauler and can't away with playing too high but flashes the ability to move bigger defensive tackles off the ball. Strong for size and rolls hips on contact.[B][COLOR="Blue"][I][U] Effective zone blocker [/U][/I][/COLOR][/B]despite athletic limitations and at best washing defenders down the line of scrimmage.[i] [COLOR="Blue"]Has some problems adjusting to moving targets in space but takes adequate angles to the second level and flashes the ability to cover up linebackers[/COLOR].[/i] Enough range to get around the corner and lead the way when asked to bull.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

Very disappointing that RT hasn't been addressed. That's the first position I would've tried to fix through free agency. Perhaps we'll find someone with that 3rd rounder.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;900766]Does anyone know if Brown can play Guard? I imagine he's to tall.[/quote]I don't think you can be too tall to play guard. It's just different footwork than is required for the tackle position. And Brown doesn't have the footwork to play tackle anymore.

There's only a couple of solutions possible here. Right guard is one of them.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=skinsfan69;900874]Very disappointing that RT hasn't been addressed. That's the first position I would've tried to fix through free agency. Perhaps we'll find someone with that 3rd rounder.[/quote]

The way FA has gone, we need to address multiple positions with that 3rd rounder. I still have RT as our top priority, but im confident there will be a quality RT prospect in the 3rd round. Match him up with Collins or injury ridden McNeil and go from there. We were never serious about Winston.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=Chico23231;900880]The way FA has gone, we need to address multiple positions with that 3rd rounder. I still have RT as our top priority, but im confident there will be a quality RT prospect in the 3rd round. Match him up with Collins or injury ridden McNeil and go from there. We were never serious about Winston.[/quote]As much as it sucked to get screwed out of $18 million of cap room and get stuck with just 17.5 million remaining, that's a ton of cap room to improve the team. By my estimates, we've spent around 13 ish million, which is a lot.

And it's just not clear where the team has improved. For all that money, we have [B]a lot[/B] more competition at the Z receiver position, and we're healthier overall (though weaker) at safety. We don't yet have Fletcher back in the fold, and at this point, would seemingly have to create some cap room to get him signed.

There's still plenty of time to get around to actually improving the team: both the LB and the OT markets are still pretty robust, and the Redskins can create cap room by borrowing money from future seasons. The Trent Williams contract has a lot of base salary in it. Beck can be cut. Cooley and Davis can be extended, etc. Hall can be released if that $10 million isn't enough. I don't doubt they'll make another move.

But spending so much on so little isn't a good plan to build around RG3, no matter how desperate things looked after the NFL docked us cap space.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

Tulloch is still available at ilb, and he's good, but fletch is better. I don't get why we overspend either, but really I think the only 2 overspent contracts are Carriker & Garçon. I feel like they could have kept Carriker for half that contract. Was someone else high on Carriker?

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

Don't forget that June 1 cuts may leave us with viable RT, ILB, and S candidates. And by that time we might have more cap space back via appeal.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

lofton is still out there too

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=Evilgrin;900887]Tulloch is still available at ilb, and he's good, but fletch is better. I don't get why we overspend either, but really I think the only 2 overspent contracts are Carriker & Garçon. I feel like they could have kept Carriker for half that contract. Was someone else high on Carriker?[/quote]Carriker's contract was market value, and essentially boils down to about 1 year/4 million or 2 years/7 million. That's a starters salary, and Carriker is more of a priority backup in both skill and on our depth chart, but it's a team-friendly contract. Team friendly (when I use it) basically just asks two questions: 1) can the team get away from the contract one year in without significant cap implication, and 2) are there enough cheap years on the back end where the team might actually want to hold onto the player at the terms agreed upon. In Carriker's case, the answer to both questions is yes (although he holds an option to get out of the contract after one year).

Garcon's contract was market value as well, but the Redskins bought in a sellers market, and bought an asset that was priced like a top receiver (like Sidney Rice a year before), despite the obvious difference that Garcon has never played like Sidney Rice did in 2009.

If you can stomach it, you can look and see what Seattle got for their investment in a no. 1 receiver a year ago:

[url=http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RiceSi01.htm]Sidney Rice NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com[/url]

And keep in mind that Garcon has not yet proved he can perform at that level, although he also hasn't missed significant time with injury.

The way the receiver market is these days, you have to be able to draft and develop, or you need to be able to pluck good ones in trades (like we did with Gaffney). You can't use the free agent market. It's just pissing your cap dollars into the sewer.

That goes for Tampa Bay and Jacksonville as well, obviously.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

How do we know the plan isn't to draft a RT in the 3RD?

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=Lotus;900893]Don't forget that June 1 cuts may leave us with viable RT, ILB, and S candidates. And by that time we might have more cap space back via appeal.[/quote]The way agents structure deals these days kills June 1 as a meaningful cut date. I suppose cap-strapped teams like the Cards, Steelers, and Jets might cut a guy or two after that date, but contracts are being written to include roster guarantees within a week of the league year beginning. Those clauses are just being written in to prevent teams from holding onto a guy for three additional months if they know he's not going to be back.

The Raiders and Kam Wimbley are a great example. Under the prior CBA, Wimbley would have either been a June 1 cut, or would have been paid a roster bonus by the Raiders. But now agents are smart enough to pull that option away from the team, and force a decision in March.

The only position where June 1 still might matter is with quarterbacks who get $20 million+ signing bonuses and then have a disaster season that causes the team to find someone else one year into the contract. But it has to be a position or a player who the team is making a significant financial committment to. Like, for example, if Peyton Manning were to be horribly ineffective in 2012.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=SBXVII;900903]How do we know the plan isn't to draft a RT in the 3RD?[/quote]

For that I'd nominate the following.

Brandon Mosley - Auburn
Levy Adcock - Oklahoma State


And possibly the cream of the potential third round crop, Andrew Datko - Florida State
[quote]"Not a mauler. Lacks lower body strength to drive blocks. Will leave his feet on occasion and fails to finish a bit too often. [B]However, he is a very effective zone-run blocker.[/B] Has a quick first step and does an outstanding job with his blocking angles. Consistently gets into position and plays with good balance in the run game. Is a technician in the run game. Shows some upper body power. Very good awareness in space and consistently hits the moving target. "[/quote]

Datko actually reminds me of Eric Winston's situation coming out of college. Tons of talent, but injury concerns led to him falling.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

I think that everyone is forgetting, we have three RT candidates on our roster now. Tyler did a pretty good job for us, in the games he played in. He is also 27 this year. Willie Smith also did a good job. I think in the four games the were in, they gave up 12 sacks. 2 a game. That was pretty good considering they played the best pass rushers in the game. Not to mention, we are paying a guy 6 million dollars this year that is on the roster. If he is finally healthy, he could be the answer.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=T.O.Killa;900907]I think that everyone is forgetting, we have three RT candidates on our roster now...[/quote]See post #123
We know there are inhouse candidates but I would hope the FO aims for a more certain solution and upgrade at the RT position.
Afterall we have our franchise QB to protect.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

Still holding out hope Brown can get back to form. If not we have some decent depth behind him.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

What the Redskins need is a couple of young C/G prospects. Sign a couple low level free agents and Drft one. I like Mo Hurt, I hope he continues to improve and another gaurd to replace Cook. I also, believe that Brown can have a good season. I like where the line is and think we are in good position to build it thru the draft.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

Hurt is definitely an intriguing prospect to keep an eye on. I'd be surprised if we don't draft another lineman or two this year.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=Mattyk;900938]Hurt is definitely an intriguing prospect to keep an eye on. I'd be surprised if we don't draft another lineman or two this year.[/quote]

I don't know why but I have this ominous feeling of us drafting a CB or a LB with our 3rd round pick this year. Maybe even a TE.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;900941]I don't know why but I have this ominous feeling of us drafting a CB or a LB with our 3rd round pick this year. Maybe even a TE.[/quote]

Nah, Kicker.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=Chief X_Phackter;900942]Nah, Kicker.[/quote]lol there is that Punter from LSU

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[QUOTE=Dirtbag59;900941]I don't know why but I have this ominous feeling of us drafting a CB or a LB with our 3rd round pick this year. Maybe even a TE.[/QUOTE]



Dwight Bentley?, Mychael Kendricks?, LaDarius Green?

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[QUOTE=30gut;900944]lol there is that Punter from LSU[/QUOTE]



Brad Wing.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=SBXVII;900903]How do we know the plan isn't to draft a RT in the 3RD?[/quote]

I thought we determined we traded up for kalil?

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=GTripp0012;900896]Carriker's contract was market value, and essentially boils down to about 1 year/4 million or 2 years/7 million. That's a starters salary, and Carriker is more of a priority backup in both skill and on our depth chart, but it's a team-friendly contract. Team friendly (when I use it) basically just asks two questions: 1) can the team get away from the contract one year in without significant cap implication, and 2) are there enough cheap years on the back end where the team might actually want to hold onto the player at the terms agreed upon. In Carriker's case, the answer to both questions is yes (although he holds an option to get out of the contract after one year).

Garcon's contract was market value as well, but the Redskins bought in a sellers market, and bought an asset that was priced like a top receiver (like Sidney Rice a year before), despite the obvious difference that Garcon has never played like Sidney Rice did in 2009.

If you can stomach it, you can look and see what Seattle got for their investment in a no. 1 receiver a year ago:

[url=http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RiceSi01.htm]Sidney Rice NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com[/url]

And keep in mind that Garcon has not yet proved he can perform at that level, although he also hasn't missed significant time with injury.

[B]The way the receiver market is these days, you have to be able to draft and develop, or you need to be able to pluck good ones in trades (like we did with Gaffney)[/B]. You can't use the free agent market. It's just pissing your cap dollars into the sewer.

That goes for Tampa Bay and Jacksonville as well, obviously.[/quote]

Pretty astute observation IMO. Every SB team going back to 2002 fits the bolded, with the probable exception in Tampa (2003).

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

what I have been pondering since FA started and our lack of attention to the line is:

What if after reviewing the tape the coaches we happy with the opportunities created by the line? 5 of 6 games to end the year we had a 100yard rusher, I cant remember the last time we ran that well over that many games (the playoff run when Portis stepped up?). This to me is the first real sign that our offense is starting to click....could we be approaching the fabled continuity?

What if they were very unhappy with how the skill players took advantage of those opportunites?

I think you would have an off season that looks not different that this. I still think we will address the line, but maybe not the total revamp a lot of folks are calling for. This line of thinking also reduces the suprise if TW is traded for draft position.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

well, randy moss was 300% as productive with tom brady vs w/ with oakland had... if you have a great QB, any WR is going to look a lot better. RGIII is going to have a lot of say in whether garcon is looked back upon as a good or bad signing.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=That Guy;900956]well, randy moss was 300% as productive with tom brady vs w/ with oakland had... if you have a great QB, any WR is going to look a lot better.[B] RGIII is going to have a lot of say in whether garcon is looked back upon as a good or bad signing.[/B][/quote]

Exactly. If I had to put a number on it I'd say that for most receivers the QB and play calling is at least 50% responsible for a receivers production. Most likely even more then that. You can have a receiver with all the talent in the world but unless he has a good QB and an offensive system that allows him to get open theres a good chance of said receiver underacheiving. Only the Calvin Johnson's of the world can make anyone look good and they are very very very very very VERY few and far between.

With Griffin at the healm we might find that we're going from "all the receivers we get end up sucking" to "man receivers are a dime a dozen."

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;900957]Exactly. If I had to put a number on it I'd say that for most receivers the QB and play calling is at least 50% responsible for a receivers production. Most likely even more then that. You can have a receiver with all the talent in the world but unless he has a good QB and an offensive system that allows him to get open theres a good chance of said receiver underacheiving. Only the Calvin Johnson's of the world can make anyone look good and they are very very very very very VERY few and far between.

With Griffin at the healm we might find that we're going from "all the receivers we get end up sucking" to "man receivers are a dime a dozen."[/quote]

well, i don't know if you followed CJ, but watching reggie ball throw to him at GT was pretty god awful. and yet, he still helped get reggie drafted.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;900957]Exactly. If I had to put a number on it I'd say that for most receivers the QB and play calling is at least 50% responsible for a receivers production. Most likely even more then that. You can have a receiver with all the talent in the world but unless he has a good QB and an offensive system that allows him to get open theres a good chance of said receiver underacheiving. Only the Calvin Johnson's of the world can make anyone look good and they are very very very very very VERY few and far between.

With Griffin at the healm we might find that we're going from "all the receivers we get end up sucking" to "man receivers are a dime a dozen."[/quote]All depends how you define WR production. If it's just by yards and catches, then it's probably a lot more than 50% dependent on the QB and offensive scheme. Any fantasy football player knows to avoid a quality receiver who is working with a limited passing game.

Receiver stats are pretty advanced though within the last ten years, thanks to details in the NFL gamebooks that weren't there before 2000.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=GTripp0012;900881]As much as it sucked to get screwed out of $18 million of cap room and get stuck with just 17.5 million remaining, that's a ton of cap room to improve the team. By my estimates, we've spent around 13 ish million, which is a lot.

And it's just not clear where the team has improved. For all that money, we have [B]a lot[/B] more competition at the Z receiver position, and we're healthier overall (though weaker) at safety. We don't yet have Fletcher back in the fold, and at this point, would seemingly have to create some cap room to get him signed.

There's still plenty of time to get around to actually improving the team: both the LB and the OT markets are still pretty robust, and the Redskins can create cap room by borrowing money from future seasons. The Trent Williams contract has a lot of base salary in it. Beck can be cut. Cooley and Davis can be extended, etc. Hall can be released if that $10 million isn't enough. I don't doubt they'll make another move.

But spending so much on so little isn't a good plan to build around RG3, no matter how desperate things looked after the NFL docked us cap space.[/quote]

Isn't Beck under contract for a few milllion? Why in the world are they keeping him on the roster? At this point he's totally useless.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=GTripp0012;901329]All depends how you define WR production. If it's just by yards and catches, then it's probably a lot more than 50% dependent on the QB and offensive scheme. Any fantasy football player knows to avoid a quality receiver who is working with a limited passing game.

Receiver stats are pretty advanced though within the last ten years, thanks to details in the NFL gamebooks that weren't there before 2000.[/quote]

I agree, I was just using 50% as a conservative estimate.

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=skinsfan69;901334]Isn't Beck under contract for a few milllion? Why in the world are they keeping him on the roster? At this point he's totally useless.[/quote]

Completely agree, he's unnecessary.

I think coaches may have been satisfied with the line for now as well, maybe putting some of the blame onto rex and beck not getting the ball out of their hands quick enough?

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;901334]Isn't Beck under contract for a few milllion? Why in the world are they keeping him on the roster? At this point he's totally useless.[/QUOTE]
I imagine he is gone if cap room is needed for Fletcher(if beck even provides cap relief) but he is a camp body at this point to be cut at the altar of the true RGIII.

(Lotus, I will never again refer to Griffen that way but love the name play between the false prophet RGIII(Rexy) and the true one)

Re: O-Line Edition: Free Agency and the Draft
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;901364]I imagine he is gone if cap room is needed for Fletcher(if beck even provides cap relief) but he is a camp body at this point to be cut at the altar of the true RGIII.

(Lotus, I will never again refer to Griffen that way but love the name play between the false prophet RGIII(Rexy) and the true one)[/quote]

Love the word play!

Also, I just made a suggestion. I'm not the "Griffin" police. :)