Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

[quote=hooskins;925796]What kills people quicker and more efficiently? Guns.

Your above argument is so ridiculous.[/quote]

While his post may have been a bit.....provocative, a similar logic was applied to the original Assault Weapons Ban in 94' and and fed to an uniformed American people by...then President Bill Clinton. It was a ridiculous proposition then and it remains today.
However, I made some pretty good money as a result of it....so guess it was not all bad.

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

[quote=hooskins;925796]What kills people quicker and more efficiently? Guns.

Your above argument is so ridiculous.[/quote]

I used to be anti-gun for awhile but over the years have changed my opinion. But trust me, if someone wants to kill someone, they're going to find a way. Gun or no gun. When people snap or are just pure nuts, the extremes they go to to cause harm to others is unbelievable.

Look at 9/11, killed thousands of people and not caused by gun violence.

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

Good point!
Some quality YouTube time in the bomb making dept, a side trip to Ace Hardware for some fertilizer, and you have OKC FBI building coming down.....

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

Banning assault weapons won't keep all psychos from getting them. But it will make it harder for them to get them. Don't we want to make it harder for a psycho to get an assault weapon?

Also, banning assault weapons will not eliminate all of the ones in circulation. But each year into the future, as weapons degrade as all machines do, it will be harder for psychos to get their hands on them. Again, don't we want it to be difficult for psychos to get weapons?

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

Banning "Assault Weapons" is a useless proposition and without benefit to anyone......
It has been popularized by political pundits solely to placate a US population that knows no better.
We need to adopt actions that make sense.....

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

I am an advocate of gun rights, and I think that every law abiding citizen should be able to own and posess firearms. In fact both of my parents hold concealed weapons licenses.

HOWEVER, i do not feel that the mass shooting in colorado could have been prevented by having everyone in the theater packing, as popular opinion has said.

Things are very bad in the US in 2012, but it's not so bad that it's like the wild wild west where everyone needs to carry a gun to survive.

There are some people out there who aren't psychologically capable of having the responsibility of gun ownership, and there are people who are "afraid of the world" so to speak that would fire at the drop of a hat. People like that give gun owners a bad name.

My wife works for a woman who two summers ago, was robbed by a kid with a BB gun. She was severely traumatized as a result, went right out and bought a pistol, and despite not having a concealed weapon permit, she keeps it in her purse everywhere she goes. 3 occasions this past year the woman has gotten startled at work and reached for the pistol before calming down. She is going to kill someone one day unjustifiably. This is the kind of person who will see shrubs moving and open fire, only to find out after the fact that a child or someone was reaching through the bushes to get something.

The tragedy in Colorado is a tragedy IMO and nothing could have prevented it. To implement all the types of security that Joe Public is calling for now as a result, puts us effectively in a police state where the military/police check you everywhere you go...not the solution IMO

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

[quote=Lotus;925821]Banning assault weapons won't keep all psychos from getting them. But it will make it harder for them to get them. Don't we want to make it harder for a psycho to get an assault weapon?

Also, banning assault weapons will not eliminate all of the ones in circulation. But each year into the future, as weapons degrade as all machines do, it will be harder for psychos to get their hands on them. Again, don't we want it to be difficult for psychos to get weapons?[/quote]

Since the theater shooter also killed and maimed with a pistol and a shotgun I find it amusing that you don't mention them.

Polarized by media hype about the much demonized assault rifles maybe?

[QUOTE=SolidSnake84;925828]I am an advocate of gun rights, and I think that every law abiding citizen should be able to own and posess firearms. In fact both of my parents hold concealed weapons licenses.

HOWEVER, i do not feel that the mass shooting in colorado could have been prevented by having everyone in the theater packing, as popular opinion has said.

Things are very bad in the US in 2012, but it's not so bad that it's like the wild wild west where everyone needs to carry a gun to survive.

There are some people out there who aren't psychologically capable of having the responsibility of gun ownership, and there are people who are "afraid of the world" so to speak that would fire at the drop of a hat. People like that give gun owners a bad name.

My wife works for a woman who two summers ago, was robbed by a kid with a BB gun. She was severely traumatized as a result, went right out and bought a pistol, and despite not having a concealed weapon permit, she keeps it in her purse everywhere she goes. 3 occasions this past year the woman has gotten startled at work and reached for the pistol before calming down. She is going to kill someone one day unjustifiably. This is the kind of person who will see shrubs moving and open fire, only to find out after the fact that a child or someone was reaching through the bushes to get something.

The tragedy in Colorado is a tragedy IMO and nothing could have prevented it. To implement all the types of security that Joe Public is calling for now as a result, puts us effectively in a police state where the military/police check you everywhere you go...not the solution IMO[/QUOTE]

Great post; I totally agree. I personally would never own a gun but I also think a sane law abiding citizen should have the right to have one if they choose.

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

The guy was had clearly gone over the edge. I doubt anything was going to stop him from causing death and destruction.

[quote]One of the incendiary devices appeared to be improvised napalm and others appeared to be mixtures that, if combined with other materials, could cause an explosion, the official said.

"We talk about motive and defenses and deliberation, and make no mistake, this apartment was designed to kill whoever entered it," Aurora Police Chief Daniel Oates said. And who was most likely to enter that location? "It was going to be an officer."

The apartment also contained about 30 aerial shells used in fireworks displays, roughly the size of golf balls and filled with black powder, wired to a control box in the kitchen that was defused with water, another law enforcement official said. There were also jars of black powder, liquid accelerants and other flammable chemicals in the apartment, the source said.[/quote]
[url=http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/21/us/colorado-shooting-suspect-apartment/index.html?iref=obinsite]Massacre suspect's neighbor: 'I'm counting my lucky stars' - CNN.com[/url]

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

Stepping away from the "Ban Guns" talk. How about we remember those who died:

[url=http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2012/07/us/interactive.colorado.victims/?iid=article_sidebar]Remembering the Colorado shooting victims[/url]

The six year old girl who was killed had just learned how to swim. My five year old girl is going to her grandparents today and can't wait to show them that she can now swim.

One guy had been married for a year and was celebrating his birthday.

My heart goes out the families and loved ones.

Life is precious. Never forget that.

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

Joe brings a poignant....pause. While we have strong opinions on both sides of the fence on this issue, the real tragedy lies with those of the victims and their families....

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

I know that no matter what I say I am pretty confident that I will not change anyone's opinions of guns, but what I do want to say is that first I am sorry for all of those families that lost someone. I would not wish that on anyone. My 11 year old son attended the midnight primer in Erie, PA, just the thought isvery frightful.

What I do want to say is that the media spends a lot of effort on banning guns when tragedy like this happens, but nothing or very little is said when guns are used for good or seen in a good light.

[url=http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/327362]14-year-old boy shoots armed intruder, protects siblings[/url]

I have to believe the worst would have happened if this brave young man did not take action to protect his siblings.

All I really am trying to get atis that for people to have a knee jerk reaction and blame guns is kind of wrong. This guy had distruction on his mind and guns or no guns he was going to give it his best, that is clearly evident with the boobie trapped apartment and bomb in the theater.

I dont want to offened anyone and I really dont want to get into the gun ban debate, I am just hrowing in my two cents.... take it or leave it...

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;925833]Since the theater shooter also killed and maimed with a pistol and a shotgun I find it amusing that you don't mention them.

Polarized by media hype about the much demonized assault rifles maybe?[/quote]

Nope. I am not polarized by media hype. My comments were intended to respect the keeping of some guns by citizens while outlawing the over-the-top guns.

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

Sux to return back from a 3 day vacation from the outer banx and hear this. I always look forward to get away from internet access, limited tv, and i just like to turn the phone off as well...my sister called me with the news tonight heading home. Thoughts and prayers for the families.

A couple things stand out...1. Colorado AGAIN. very strange...id be asking alot of questions if i lived there 2. you can buy 4 weapons in a month's time, isnt that a red flag? 3. How do you get hands on explosives?

Still early in the story, maybe those questions have been answered.

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

[quote=Lotus;925876]Nope. I am not polarized by media hype. My comments were intended to respect the keeping of some guns by citizens while outlawing the over-the-top guns.[/quote]



Knowing that a lot of handguns and shotguns can blow half your head off please tell me which of the other firearms are "over the top"?

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

Some good news out of a bad tragedy.


[quote]My Uncle Greg just got two new lungs from a victim of the Aurora shootings. Amazing that such a tragedy saves a mans life too..[/quote]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/zgfAs.jpg?1[/IMG]


A fellow redditor posted this.

[url=http://imgur.com/a/L5zru]imgurians - Imgur[/url]

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

Picture of Holmes in court this morning.

[IMG]http://a57.foxnews.com/global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/U.S./660/371/James%20Holmes%20in%20court%20close%20up.JPG[/IMG]



Check out ABC's video of him in court. Dude looks spaced out to say the least.


[url=http://abcnews.go.com/US/colorado-shooter-james-holmes-appears-court/story?id=16834757#.UA16yKDNlQg]Colorado Shooter James Holmes Appears in Court - ABC News[/url]

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

I don't know how a lawyer or anyone could defend him.

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

He looks like a nut. I'm presuming they are going to go with the insanity defense.

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

[quote=firstdown;925992]I don't know how a lawyer or anyone could defend him.[/quote]

Public defender. They have to. Their only job here is possibly helping him get many life sentences as compared to the death penalty. That or the "plead insanity", which I somehow doubt since he's planned this over the course of months.




[quote=mooby;925994]He looks like a nut. I'm presuming they are going to go with the insanity defense.[/quote]



That lawyer has that look like "WHY THE **** ME??". I bet they drew straws to see who would represent him and she lost...lol

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

[quote=NC_Skins;925996]Public defender. They have to. Their only job here is possibly helping him get many life sentences as compared to the death penalty. [B]That or the "plead insanity", which I somehow doubt since he's planned this over the course of months.[/B]


That lawyer has that look like "WHY THE **** ME??". I bet they drew straws to see who would represent him and she lost...lol[/quote]

Premeditation really has nothing to do with the insanity defense. The insanity defense is all about one knowing whether one's actions are right or wrong. You can get your morals mixed up in a premeditated way. Or, put differently, you can be both premeditated and insane in your actions.

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

[quote=mooby;925994]He looks like a nut. I'm presuming they are going to go with the insanity defense.[/quote]

Not a defense likely to succeed, IMHO. Here's the statute for CO's insanity defense:

[quote] 16-8-101.5. Insanity defined - offenses committed on and after July 1, 1995.
(1) The applicable test of insanity shall be: (a) A person who is so diseased or defective in mind at the time of the commission of the act as to be incapable of distinguishing right from wrong with respect to that act is not accountable; except that care should be taken not to confuse such mental disease or defect with moral obliquity, mental depravity, or passion growing out of anger, revenge, hatred, or other motives and kindred evil conditions, for, when the act is induced by any of these causes, the person is accountable to the law; or

(b) A person who suffered from a condition of mind caused by mental disease or defect that prevented the person from forming a culpable mental state that is an essential element of a crime charged, but care should be taken not to confuse such mental disease or defect with moral obliquity, mental depravity, or passion growing out of anger, revenge, hatred, or other motives and kindred evil conditions, for, when the act is induced by any of these causes, the person is accountable to the law.

(2) As used in subsection (1) of this section: (a) "Diseased or defective in mind" does not refer to an abnormality manifested only by repeated criminal or otherwise antisocial conduct.

(b) "Mental disease or defect" includes only those severely abnormal mental conditions that grossly and demonstrably impair a person's perception or understanding of reality and that are not attributable to the voluntary ingestion of alcohol or any other psychoactive substance but does not include an abnormality manifested only by repeated criminal or otherwise antisocial conduct.[/quote]

[url=http://www.state.co.us/gov_dir/leg_dir/olls/sl1995/sl_26.htm]Session Laws of Colorado 1995 - Chapter 26[/url]

According to the statute, as I read it, it is an affirmative defense. Meaning Holmes must prove that - as he was formulatting the crime - he lacked the cognitive ability to distinguish right from wrong. [Note the limitation stated in the second part of the statute: "care should be taken not to confuse such mental disease or defect with [B]moral obliquity, mental depravity, or passion growing out of anger, revenge, hatred, or other motives and kindred evil conditions[/B] because, when the act is induced by any of these causes, the person is accountable to the law."]

Given the amount of planning, the nature of the crime and the booby trapped apartment, I think it would be next to impossible for him to prove he was under some delusion that prevented him from distinguishing right from wrong.

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

I still think a worst penalty is to rot in a cell vs. being put to death.

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

[quote=Lotus;926003]Premeditation really has nothing to do with the insanity defense. The insanity defense is all about one knowing whether one's actions are right or wrong. You can get your morals mixed up in a premeditated way. Or, put differently, [B]you can be both premeditated and insane in your actions[/B].[/quote]

True enough, at the same time, pre-meditation goes to (1) whether or not you were under any immediate delusion when you committed the act; and (2) forms the basis for inquiry into whether or not you knew what you were doing as you carried out the planning.

Q: You purchased materials to create toxic gasses and to booby trap your apartment?
A: Yes.
Q: Why?
A: Because I thought I was the Joker and needed to protect my hideout.
Q: You aware that the Joker is considered a criminal?
A: He was considered insane and simply was misunderstood by society.
Q: You understood the Joker kills people?
A: Yes.
Q: And that society punished the Joker for killing others?
A: Yes.
Q: And by copying the Joker, you would be doing actions that would also be punished by society.
A: uhh....

Premeditation, while not determinative, is certainly relevant to exploring the motive. ... why did he do it? Unless he was under the provable delusion that he was somehow saving mankind, I don't see him getting away from the "moral depravity" of his planning.

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This dude is crazy, he just looks like a nut. And yeah, thats what I don't like about lawyers, when they defend the clearly guilty.

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;926015]True enough, at the same time, pre-meditation goes to (1) whether or not you were under any immediate delusion when you committed the act; and (2) forms the basis for inquiry into whether or not you knew what you were doing as you carried out the planning.

Q: You purchased materials to create toxic gasses and to booby trap your apartment?
A: Yes.
Q: Why?
A: Because I thought I was the Joker and needed to protect my hideout.
Q: You aware that the Joker is considered a criminal?
A: He was considered insane and simply was misunderstood by society.
Q: You understood the Joker kills people?
A: Yes.
Q: And that society punished the Joker for killing others?
A: Yes.
Q: And by copying the Joker, you would be doing actions that would also be punished by society.
A: uhh....

Premeditation, while not determinative, is certainly relevant to exploring the motive. ... why did he do it? Unless he was under the provable delusion that he was somehow saving mankind, I don't see him getting away from the "moral depravity" of his planning.[/quote]

Thank you for your legal expertise! Once again I bow to your jurisprudent wisdom.

However, I think my argument still remains against a couple of people in this thread who have at least implied that premeditation is flat-out determinative regarding the insanity defense.

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[quote=CultBrennan59;926016]This dude is crazy, he just looks like a nut. And yeah, thats what I don't like about lawyers, when they defend the clearly guilty.[/quote]
Everyone deserves a lawyer, even the clearly guilty. Otherwise, who determines the "clearly guilty" from the "d*** sure looks guilty"? Other than once the coming computer judges control judicial dispensations, we always need lawyers who are willing to take up the poorest of the poor, or most atrocious cases, and defend them even when the world says it's indefensible. That may seem outrageous, but it forces the system to play it straight, and not take liberties with our liberties.

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;926021]Everyone deserves a lawyer, even the clearly guilty. Otherwise, who determines the "clearly guilty" from the "d*** sure looks guilty"? [B]Other than once the coming computer judges control judicial dispensations[/B], we always need lawyers who are willing to take up the poorest of the poor, or most atrocious cases, and defend them even when the world says it's indefensible. That may seem outrageous, but it forces the system to play it straight, and not take liberties with our liberties.[/quote]

:laughing-

[IMG]http://www.boyactors.org.uk/actors/330.jpg[/IMG]

It could happen.

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;926021]Everyone deserves a lawyer, even the clearly guilty. Otherwise, who determines the "clearly guilty" from the "d*** sure looks guilty"? Other than once the coming computer judges control judicial dispensations, we always need lawyers who are willing to take up the poorest of the poor, or most atrocious cases, and defend them even when the world says it's indefensible. That may seem outrageous, but it forces the system to play it straight, and not take liberties with our liberties.[/quote]

Could not have said it better myself. (Well, I could but, every now and then, I have to give you one).

Again, and as always, ... thoughts and sympathy to the victims and their survivors as this next part of the healing process goes forward. I wish them strength as it proceeds and, hopefully, justice is done.

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;926021]Everyone deserves a lawyer, even the clearly guilty. Otherwise, who determines the "clearly guilty" from the "d*** sure looks guilty"? Other than once the coming computer judges control judicial dispensations, we always need lawyers who are willing to take up the poorest of the poor, or most atrocious cases, and defend them even when the world says it's indefensible. That may seem outrageous, but it forces the system to play it straight, and not take liberties with our liberties.[/quote]

I understand that everyone has the right to a lawyer. What I don't get is when a lawyer knows his person killed the people but he still looks for ways to get the charges dropped.

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[quote=firstdown;926035]I understand that everyone has the right to a lawyer. What I don't get is when a lawyer knows his person killed the people but he still looks for ways to get the charges dropped.[/quote]

It's called being a public defender. It means that if you get assigned to defend a person, you have to, even if you know they are guilty.

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

[quote=firstdown;926035]I understand that everyone has the right to a lawyer. What I don't get is when a lawyer knows his person killed the people but he still looks for ways to get the charges dropped.[/quote]

It really is quite simple. It is the State's burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that any person is guilty of the charge that the State is accusing them of. It is the defense's responsibility to carry out the best defense possible and use all avenues available, with in ethical boundaries (can't lie, misrepresent what they know first hand to be true etc). If the State is allowed to play the "well we all know this" without being forced to prove every point, then far more damage will be done to more people than any 1 criminal conviction would do.

In this specific case, let the lawyers for this guy play their hands, in the end I am willing to trust that the system will find him guilty, and, if it doesn't, than the State simply didn't do it's job.

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

It's that whole taking "liberties with your liberties" thing. It's the Govt.'s burden, at all times, to prove that there is just cause to deny someone their life or liberty - hence, innocent until proven guilty. To ensure that there is just cause, we have an adverserial legal system, and, to ensure that such a system works, it's the duty of the defense attorney to mount a vigorous defense. If defense attorneys start "taking a fall" when they have a client they think is guilty it undercuts the validity judicial system and starts, quite frankly, letting lawyers substitute their judgment for the judge and jury (i.e. - I think my guy is guilty, but I know the State can't prove it. I'll just mount a crappy defense so he gets found guilty.")

I would never, ever want to be a criminal defense attorney but, even in the most eggregiious cases - like this one, I understand their necessity.

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

Side note: Peyton Manning individually calling each of the surviving victims in the hospital...awesome. Like when he called the beat reporters who covered him in Indy after he signed with the Broncos to thank them for their service.

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;926021]Everyone deserves a lawyer, even the clearly guilty. Otherwise, who determines the "clearly guilty" from the "d*** sure looks guilty"? Other than once the coming computer judges control judicial dispensations, we always need lawyers who are willing to take up the poorest of the poor, or most atrocious cases, and defend them even when the world says it's indefensible. That may seem outrageous, but it forces the system to play it straight, and not take liberties with our liberties.[/quote]

No I understand, its just annoying. Hey no one said our court system was perfect.

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

[quote=SmootSmack;926045]Side note: Peyton Manning individually calling each of the surviving victims in the hospital...awesome. Like when he called the beat reporters who covered him in Indy after he signed with the Broncos to thank them for their service.[/quote]

I don't want to give props to Peyton for just this, I read an article somewhere (might be in the offseason thread) that mentioned a few Broncos went to one of the hospitals where they had a few of the victims at. That's a very nice move on their behalf, it's good to see the community rally together in an instance like this.

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

[quote=mooby;926048]I don't want to give props to Peyton for just this, I read an article somewhere (might be in the offseason thread) that mentioned a few Broncos went to one of the hospitals where they had a few of the victims at. That's a very nice move on their behalf, it's good to see the community rally together in an instance like this.[/quote]

[url=http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8189598/denver-broncos-visit-colorado-shooting-victims-hospital]Denver Broncos visit Colorado shooting victims in hospital - ESPN[/url]

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This is a great example, to me, where the cops on scene could have done everyone a HUGE favor and shot the guy dead.

Now this nonsense of a trial will waste peoples time and money for the next few years.

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

[quote=RedskinRat;926064]This is a great example, to me, where the cops on scene could have done everyone a HUGE favor and shot the guy dead.

Now this nonsense of a trial will waste peoples time and money for the next few years.[/quote]

Clearly not the case, and more the plot of a movie than real life, but suppose this man was part of a larger conspiracy and taking him alive allowed us to find his other conspirators who had planned of a weekend long Joker siege. Or, what if he had been forced into this role by some dramatic form of blackmail.

Again, obviously as of now he looks like he was alone in it, but police on the scene should never be judge, jury, and executioner. The time and money cost is a reasonable expense to protect our society

Re: Several Dead in Dark Knight Premiere Mass Shooting
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;926071]Clearly not the case, and more the plot of a movie than real life, but suppose this man was part of a larger conspiracy and taking him alive allowed us to find his other conspirators who had planned of a weekend long Joker siege. Or, what if he had been forced into this role by some dramatic form of blackmail.

Again, obviously as of now he looks like he was alone in it, but police on the scene should never be judge, jury, and executioner. The time and money cost is a reasonable expense to protect our society[/quote]

He looked as guilty as a puppy sitting by a puddle of piss.

How is this charming fellow languishing in jail protecting anyone more that him being dead would.