Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1014049]The only successful democracy in the ME and we give them too much support?

Discuss further?[/quote]

well, there used to be this democratic country called iran, that, unlike israel, didn't use a terrorist bombing campaign to come to power.

history is a weird thing.

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1014049]The only successful democracy in the ME and we give them too much support?

Discuss further?[/quote]

I would say $3 billion a year in aid is too much support, especially a country that is supposed to have a booming economy. Not to mention that the majority, if not all, of that aid money goes into their military.

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

[quote=That Guy;1014060]well, there used to be this democratic country called iran, that, unlike israel, didn't use a terrorist bombing campaign to come to power.

history is a weird thing.[/quote]

Iran has never been a democracy, in anything but name.

[url=http://iranelectionwatch.com/past-results/]Past Results | Iran Election Watch[/url]

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

Israel uses our aid to commit flagrant human rights violations. For just one example, when Israeli helicopter gunboats mow down innocent civilians in the Gaza strip, those choppers and their ammunition are American made. Many people outside of the USA know this. Therefore, on an international stage, we are perceived as aiding and abetting human rights violations through our aid to Israel.

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

[quote=Ruhskins;1014066]I would say $3 billion a year in aid is too much support, especially a country that is supposed to have a booming economy. Not to mention that the majority, if not all, of that aid money goes into their military.[/quote]

We also give $130B to Europe. It's called protecting your interests.

I'd prefer we were more insular and less involved in policing the world but that's not the reality of the situation.

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

[quote=Lotus;1014075]Israel uses our aid to commit flagrant human rights violations. For just one example, when Israeli helicopter gunboats mow down innocent civilians in the Gaza strip, those choppers and their ammunition are American made. Many people outside of the USA know this. Therefore, on an international stage, we are perceived as aiding and abetting human rights violations through our aid to Israel.[/quote]

Paliwood stuff. I call BS!

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Evidence for my assertion above may easily be found on the internet. For JUST ONE recent example, examine why Obama was protested in South Africa the other day, as described in this article:

[url=http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/06/29/obama-south-africa/2475133/]Anti-Obama protests dispersed by South Africa police[/url]

Fact is, in aiding Israel we are widely perceived outside of the USA as aiding human rights violations.

[QUOTE=Lotus;1014095]Fact is, in aiding Israel we are widely perceived outside of the USA as aiding human rights violations.[/QUOTE]

The OIC thanks you for your assistance with their attempts at islamization of the civilized world. <rolls_eyes>

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[quote=RedskinRat;1014096]The OIC thanks you for your assistance with their attempts at islamization of the civilized world. <rolls_eyes>[/quote]

So are you saying that Israel is somehow "containing" the spread of Islam? Did we somehow transported back to the Crusade years?

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

Given that there are many Palestinian Christians who have been victimized by Israel, we can see that calling out Israel for its AWFUL human rights record can have nothing to do with being pro-Islam.

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

[quote=Ruhskins;1014097]So are you saying that Israel is somehow "containing" the spread of Islam? Did we somehow transported back to the Crusade years?[/quote]

No, Ruhskins, it was my sarcastic way of conveying to Lotus that he's helping proliferate anti-Israel sentiments which in turn advances the OIC's narrative.

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

[quote=Lotus;1014100]Given that there are many Palestinian Christians who have been victimized by Israel, we can see that calling out Israel for its AWFUL human rights record can have nothing to do with being pro-Islam.[/quote]

Many? Want to put a number on that or can I call BS on that, too?

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL8ANySuSuk"]Paliwood[/URL], for the uninitiated.

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1014123]No, Ruhskins, it was my sarcastic way of conveying to Lotus that he's helping proliferate anti-Israel sentiments which in turn advances the OIC's narrative.[/quote]

Why does any criticism of US-Israeli relations has to be labeled as anti-Israeli sentiment? Why does the subject of re-thinking the US' approach to Israel have to be off-limits for discussion? I just don't get it. I spent some of my undergrad courses studying the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and it baffles me how much radical the pro-Israel side tends to be in the US. Both sides in the conflict have done a lot of terrible thing, but the US media tends to focus only on attacks against Israeli citizens. Yet they don't mention the deplorable conditions that common Palestinians endure in the occupied zones.

Ironically, a lot of US money ends up being spend on things that affect both sides of this conflict. US aid is spent on bullets and missiles used against Palestinians, and I am sure some of the oil profits end up funding a lot of these terrorist groups that attack Israelis.

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

[quote=Ruhskins;1014136]Both sides in the conflict have done a lot of terrible thing<SNIP>[/quote]

I'm guessing you've not kept a scorecard, have you?

Were you around for the Gaza Greenhouse fiasco?

I am all for examining every International relationship and how we, as a nation, dabble and spend.

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

[quote=Ruhskins;1014027]People don't put things in perspective and are too easily distracted by the scandal of the day, such as PRISM now. Not to say that PRISM isn't a big deal, but what do you expect out of our government, when we have a citizenry that can't even get the government to be accountable for doing their jobs on the economy, health care, and education.

PRISM and the Patriot Act are good examples of issues that people are very passionate about, yet no one has had a serious debate on maybe changing the foreign policy of this nation to avoid having to worry so much about terrorism. Our nation's blind support for Israel, the constant involvement in the oil industry, and the pointless wars we've been involved in the Middle East are three reasons why people over there hate us. Yet no one ever discuss these things because they are too preoccupied with whatever political carrot is being dangled by politicians or the media.[/quote]


That's one of the problems right there it should not be the federal goverment dealing with those issuea it should be the state. Maybe when the citizenry figures out that its better to lets the states handle these issue then the Feds can do what they are suppose to do.

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1014124]Many? Want to put a number on that or can I call BS on that, too?[/quote]

200,000 Palestinian Christians is the number which I have seen in most sources.

But my point would hold if the number were one.

Israel oppresses Palestinian Christians just as it does Palestinian Muslims. Therefore criticizing Israel's horrendous human rights record has nothing to do with being pro-Islam.

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

[quote=Lotus;1014155]200,000 Palestinian Christians is the number which I have seen in most sources.

But my point would hold if the number were one.

Israel oppresses Palestinian Christians just as it does Palestinian Muslims. Therefore criticizing Israel's horrendous human rights record has nothing to do with being pro-Islam.[/quote]

Please site a source.

KTHANXBAI

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/clapper-apologizes-erroneous-answer-nsa-221238030.html]Clapper apologizes for 'erroneous' answer on NSA[/url]


It's ok guys, he's "sorry."


Meanwhile, no charges are being brought up on him for lying to Congress. He isn't even removed from his post for lying to Congress. However, expose the government's criminal behavior and you get labeled a "traitor" and charged with espionage.

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1014172]Please site a source.

KTHANXBAI[/quote]

Go to the gajillion places online which talk about Palestinian Christians. Who do you think lives in Bethlehem? If you don't know that there are many Palestinian Christians, you really don't know anything about the lives of Palestinians.

You might start your education regarding Palestinian Christians here:
[url=http://imeu.net/news/article0023369.shtml]IMEU: FACT SHEET: Palestinian Christians in the Holy Land[/url]
[url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/philip-farah/palestinian-christians-against-the-occupation_b_1466027.html]Philip Farah: Palestinian Christians Against the Occupation[/url]

Given your resistance to recognizing a well-known fact, you have allowed me to yet again point out that Israel has a HORRIFIC human rights record, oppressing Palestinian Christians and Muslims alike.

You can read about some of these human rights abuses here:
[url=http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2013]Amnesty International | Working to Protect Human Rights[/url]

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1014074]Iran has never been a democracy, in anything but name.

[url=http://iranelectionwatch.com/past-results/]Past Results | Iran Election Watch[/url][/quote]

you mean in like in the 1950's before the US helped bombed it out for the oil companies and put the shah in place?

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

[quote=That Guy;1014179]you mean in like in the 1950's before the US helped bombed it out for the oil companies and put the shah in place?[/quote]

US fear (paranoia?) of an increasingly active Communist presence in Iran played a big part in the 1953 coup. Installing a ruler who could keep our oil needs equitable satisfied our nations capitalist interests, no doubt. I think the fear of the spread of communism, though, was what put it all into play. I'm no scholar, though, I just like reading all things Iranian history.

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

[quote=Lotus;1014178]Go to the gajillion places online which talk about Palestinian Christians. Who do you think lives in Bethlehem? If you don't know that there are many Palestinian Christians, you really don't know anything about the lives of Palestinians.[/quote]

I'd like a number, you seem unwilling to admit that the figures are difficult to get. You mentioned 200K although my numbers come out at 143K, a considerable difference.

[quote=Lotus;1014178]You might start your education regarding Palestinian Christians here:
[URL="http://imeu.net/news/article0023369.shtml"]IMEU: FACT SHEET: Palestinian Christians in the Holy Land[/URL]
[URL="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/philip-farah/palestinian-christians-against-the-occupation_b_1466027.html"]Philip Farah: Palestinian Christians Against the Occupation[/URL][/quote]

I was hoping for something less shrill in its bias. I'll keep looking.

[quote=Lotus;1014178]Given your resistance to recognizing a well-known fact,[/quote]

<point_laugh> pompous ass

[quote=Lotus;1014178]...you have allowed me to yet again point out that Israel has a HORRIFIC human rights record, oppressing Palestinian Christians and Muslims alike.[/quote]

Horrific and largely false: [URL="http://www.unwatch.org/site/c.bdKKISNqEmG/b.3820041/"]UN Watch[/URL] OIC driven BS.

[I]The council has criticized Israel on 27 separate occasions, in resolutions that grant effective impunity to Hamas, Hezbollah and their state sponsors. Obsessed with condemning Israel, the Council in its first year failed to condemn human rights violations occurring in any of the world’s 191 other countries. In its second year, the Council finally criticized one other country when it “deplored” the situation in Burma, but only after it censored out initial language containing the word “condemn.” It even praised Sudan for its "cooperation." In its third year,

The Council’s fixation with Israel is not limited to resolutions. Israel is the only country listed on the Council’s permanent agenda. Moreover, Israel is the only country subjected to an investigatory mandate that examines the actions of only one side, presumes those actions to be violations, and which is not subject to regular review. [/I]

[quote=Lotus;1014178]You can read about some of these human rights abuses here:
[URL="http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2013"]Amnesty International | Working to Protect Human Rights[/URL][/quote]

Can't have those pesky Israelis actually defend themselves in a meaningful way, can we?

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[quote=724Skinsfan;1014188]I'm no scholar, though, I just like reading all things Iranian history.[/quote]

It's my belief that ME sociopolitical history is [I][U][B]the[/B][/U][/I] most fascinating topic. It's revolting and mesmerizing at the same time.

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This thread is about NSA, not about ME history. Take that shit over to the ME thread. thanks.

[QUOTE=NC_Skins;1014204]This thread is about NSA, not about ME history. Take that shit over to the ME thread. thanks.[/QUOTE]

Good call.

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[quote=RedskinRat;1014194]I'd like a number, you seem unwilling to admit that the figures are difficult to get. You mentioned 200K although my numbers come out at 143K, a considerable difference.



I was hoping for something less shrill in its bias. I'll keep looking.



<point_laugh> pompous ass



Horrific and largely false: [URL="http://www.unwatch.org/site/c.bdKKISNqEmG/b.3820041/"]UN Watch[/URL] OIC driven BS.

[I]The council has criticized Israel on 27 separate occasions, in resolutions that grant effective impunity to Hamas, Hezbollah and their state sponsors. Obsessed with condemning Israel, the Council in its first year failed to condemn human rights violations occurring in any of the world’s 191 other countries. In its second year, the Council finally criticized one other country when it “deplored” the situation in Burma, but only after it censored out initial language containing the word “condemn.” It even praised Sudan for its "cooperation." In its third year,

The Council’s fixation with Israel is not limited to resolutions. Israel is the only country listed on the Council’s permanent agenda. Moreover, Israel is the only country subjected to an investigatory mandate that examines the actions of only one side, presumes those actions to be violations, and which is not subject to regular review. [/I]



Can't have those pesky Israelis actually defend themselves in a meaningful way, can we?[/quote]

If you read my links, you would see that I provided numbers including 200,000. If you read my links, you would find information on Israeli human rights violations from Nobel-prize-winning Amnesty International, not the OIC.

But fine, have it your way: there are 143,000 Palestinian Christians who face the same human rights violations that Palestinian Muslims face. So, to bring this discussion back to its start, we know that calling out Israel for its human rights violations has NOTHING to do with being pro-Islam, as you previously stated. Instead, calling out Israel and questioning American involvement has everything to do with justice.

Please learn about the issue before you pontificate more.

Matty and NC, I heard you. I'm done.

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[quote=NC_Skins;1014204]This thread is about NSA, not about ME history. Take that shit over to the ME thread. thanks.[/quote]

Blame Ruhskins...... post 116.

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[IMG]https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1044392_490495014371540_151192151_n.jpg[/IMG]

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

^ nice!

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[quote=RedskinRat;1014209]Blame Ruhskins...... post 116.[/quote]

I just made a point about revisiting our foreign policy (including our support for Isreal) so the government doesn't have to resort to illegal tactics to fight the war on terrorism. But given your response (which is typical of the majority of the people in this country) this is something that will never happen.

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/05/world/americas/venezuela-snowden/index.html?hpt=hp_t1]Venezuela, Bolivia offer asylum to U.S. intel leaker Snowden - CNN.com[/url]

Thats great South America supporting traitors. Well lets see Snowden try to get there, hopefully we get him before.

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[quote=Chico23231;1014528][URL="http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/05/world/americas/venezuela-snowden/index.html?hpt=hp_t1"]Venezuela, Bolivia offer asylum to U.S. intel leaker Snowden - CNN.com[/URL]

Thats great South America supporting traitors. Well lets see Snowden try to get there, hopefully we get him before.[/quote]



Calling Seal team 6,calling Seal team 6.....over.:)

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

[quote=Chico23231;1014528][url=http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/05/world/americas/venezuela-snowden/index.html?hpt=hp_t1]Venezuela, Bolivia offer asylum to U.S. intel leaker Snowden - CNN.com[/url]

Thats great South America supporting traitors. Well lets see Snowden try to get there, hopefully we get him before.[/quote]


Why are people calling him traitors? Wouldn't the traitors be the people actually going against the Constitution? (our government) I'm boggled as to how you all think it's ok for our government to disregard the 4th amendment.


The real traitors are the people that support the government's actions.

[QUOTE=NC_Skins;1014582]Why are people calling him traitors? Wouldn't the traitors be the people actually going against the Constitution? (our government) I'm boggled as to how you all think it's ok for our government to disregard the 4th amendment.


The real traitors are the people that support the government's actions.[/QUOTE]

You know why its so easy for the government to pull the wool over the country's eyes, because they have so many sheep to sheer.

say the phrase national security and a huge herd of sheep come running over offering lots of wool in the form of excuses and tirades and exaggerated threats.

There are other catch phrases too, each one designed to set off pavlovian responses in the target audience.

today we are fighting the blue army, tomorrow it may be the red.

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I dont know any hero that blows the whistle and then runs to China and then Russia for help. Shoulda stayed in the states and told the story.

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

[quote=Chico23231;1014593]I dont know any hero that blows the whistle and then runs to China and then Russia for help. Shoulda stayed in the states and told the story.[/quote]

They aren't going to let him tell any story here in the states. If you notice, the media has been on par with the government. It's not shocking to see who runs the media when they want to.

Re: PrismmmMMMMmmmm, good! NOT!
 

[quote=Chico23231;1014593]I dont know any hero that blows the whistle and then runs to China and then Russia for help. Shoulda stayed in the states and told the story.[/quote]

Do you want to stay in a country where the Government is going to do all it can to quiet what you are saying. And I am not excluding any possibilities when I say quiet. Someone posted a picture/clip of Pres. Obama when he was candidate Sen Obama blasting Pres. Bush for going after whistleblowers. If Pres Obama wanted to show a difference, he could have offered immunity from prosecution to Snowden, then let the story play out. That would have been change to believe in. But now nearly 6 years after candidate Obama vowed to close Guantanemo, it is still open (for good or bad). We are still in Afghanistan (losing lives every day) and our government still operates secret courts with no oversight or true constitutional guarantees.

This isn't a tirade against Pres Obama, but a statement that there are parts of this government that are secretive, unchecked and unconstitutional, and that is a danger to the US way of life.

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[quote=Chico23231;1014593]I dont know any hero that blows the whistle and then runs to China and then Russia for help. Shoulda stayed in the states and told the story.[/quote]

I agree 100% with you. I mean he told the story and then he was like I don't care if you use my real name, I'm ready to accept whatever consequences I face...and yet, here we are playing "Where In The World Is Carnen San Diego" with him

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[quote=SmootSmack;1014610]I agree 100% with you. I mean he told the story and then he was like I don't care if you use my real name, I'm ready to accept whatever consequences I face...and yet, here we are playing "Where In The World Is Carnen San Diego" with him[/quote]


Yeah, he really should have stayed around so he could be locked up in solitary confinement with nobody ever hearing a peep from him until he's convicted through our busted ass judicial system.

I think I'll take this guys advice before anybody. He should know, he was in the same situation pretty much.

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/daniel-ellsberg-nsa-leaker-snowden-made-the-right-call/2013/07/07/0b46d96c-e5b7-11e2-aef3-339619eab080_story.html?hpid=z2]Daniel Ellsberg: NSA leaker Snowden made the right call - The Washington Post[/url]


[quote]He would almost certainly be confined in total isolation, even longer than the more than eight months Manning suffered during his three years of imprisonment before his trial began recently. The United Nations Special Rapporteur for Torture described Manning’s conditions as “cruel, inhuman and degrading.” (That realistic prospect, by itself, is grounds for most countries granting Snowden asylum, if they could withstand bullying and bribery from the United States.)[/quote]