Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=SouperMeister;1044418]It's more convoluted than that since the Rams traded our #6 pick from 2012 to Dallas (drafted Morris Claiborne). I'm sure it netted them 2 or more lower picks, but not sure who they drafted. You can bet that Fox will give the full analysis at some point if Griffin continues to struggle, and the Rams do well. They may end up with #5 or better in the next draft if the Skins continue to play like they have this year.[/quote]

You can pic, people all you want doesn't mean they will pan out.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=SouperMeister;1044418]It's more convoluted than that since the Rams traded our #6 pick from 2012 to Dallas (drafted Morris Claiborne). I'm sure it netted them 2 or more lower picks, but not sure who they drafted. You can bet that Fox will give the full analysis at some point if Griffin continues to struggle, and the Rams do well. They may end up with #5 or better in the next draft if the Skins continue to play like they have this year.[/quote]

Not really.. If the notion is that us using those picks would make us better, then quantify it with WHO specifically would make us better with those picks. Just having a pick doesn't mean squat.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

Claiborne has been a bum

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1044420]You can pic, people all you want doesn't mean they will pan out.[/quote]I totally agree. By convoluted, I meant that it's difficult to track since the Rams traded down from the first pick we gave them. I believe they got their DB Jenkins out of it, but I don't know who else.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

The only fair way to judge the trade is to wait a few years to see what all the players involved become. Right now it's just a knee jerk reaction to say either way.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=Paintrain;1044419]Pop quiz hotshot. How did we acquire RGIII?

A. Traded for him
B. Commissioner Appointment
C. Drafted in the 1st round of the 2012 draft
D. I don't comprehend math[/quote]Dude, does NOBODY comprehend math when it comes to the RG3 trade?

If we didn't trade for him, we would have kept our 2012 1st, our 2012 2nd, and our 2013 1st. Three picks we would have used so far.

(and our 2014 1st to come, but who's counting? :cheeky: )

Now the cheeky answer to your question would be: OF COURSE we would have drafted Matt Kalil, Russel Wilson, and Jon Bostic with those picks. Obviously. :silly:

Based on who the Rams got (with all the other trading they did), picks probably more in line with what we would have done than the hindsight above, it's debatable who got the better deal.

But let's stop revising the history of the deal, and minimizing what we paid.


edit: And Matty's right as usual.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1044425]Dude, does NOBODY comprehend math when it comes to the RG3 trade?

If we didn't trade for him, we would have kept our 2012 1st, our 2012 2nd, and our 2013 1st. Three picks we would have used so far.

(and our 2014 1st to come, but who's counting? :cheeky: )

Now the cheeky answer to your question would be: OF COURSE we would have drafted Matt Kalil, Russel Wilson, and Jon Bostic with those picks. Obviously. :silly:

Based on who the Rams got (with all the other trading they did), picks probably more in line with what we would have done than the hindsight above, it's debatable who got the better deal.

But let's stop revising the history of the deal, and minimizing what we paid.


edit: And Matty's right as usual.[/quote]
Duly noted.. I thought you were among the many who forget that we swapped first round picks in 2012 and we didn't 'give up' that pick. You were saying instead of rather than in addition to. My bad.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=Paintrain;1044429]Duly noted.. I thought you were among the many who forget that we swapped first round picks in 2012 and we didn't 'give up' that pick. You were saying instead of rather than in addition to. My bad.[/quote]You're cool. Many more smart posts than me. I just wanted to emphasize what we really gave up for RG3, even though I came to love the deal last season, and hope it will still work out.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=Mattyk;1044424]The only fair way to judge the trade is to wait a few years to see what all the players involved become. Right now it's just a knee jerk reaction to say either way.[/quote]

Also, it depends on Bradford's future too. The Rams passed up RG because they\Fisher believed they already had a franchise QB. Jury still out on Bradford. Lots of factors in that trade.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[url=http://finance.yahoo.com/news/robert-griffin-iii-trade-turning-142615523.html]The Robert Griffin III Trade Is Turning Into An Unexpected Win For The St. Louis Rams - Yahoo Finance[/url]

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

I think St. Louis gets a top 5 pick in 2014 but at this point nothing would surprise me, even us ending this season with the worst record.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[url=http://www.csnwashington.com/football-washington-redskins/talk/donovan-mcnabb-says-shanahan-needs-accountability?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo]Donovan McNabb says Shanahan needs accountability | Comcast SportsNet Washington[/url]

What's interesting and even now ironic is that McNabb wasn't the problem, it was having the worst defense in the league. If memory serves McNabb was on track to set a new single season passing record in DC???

Always good to keep some perspective when things get this bad.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=The Goat;1044451][URL="http://www.csnwashington.com/football-washington-redskins/talk/donovan-mcnabb-says-shanahan-needs-accountability?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo"]Donovan McNabb says Shanahan needs accountability | Comcast SportsNet Washington[/URL]

What's interesting and even now ironic is that McNabb wasn't the problem, it was having the worst defense in the league. If memory serves McNabb was on track to set a new single season passing record in DC???

Always good to keep some perspective when things get this bad.[/quote]

Anybody know Ephraim Salaam's history there saying he "saw it in Denver?"

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=The Goat;1044451][url=http://www.csnwashington.com/football-washington-redskins/talk/donovan-mcnabb-says-shanahan-needs-accountability?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo]Donovan McNabb says Shanahan needs accountability | Comcast SportsNet Washington[/url]

What's interesting and even now ironic is that McNabb wasn't the problem, it was having the worst defense in the league. If memory serves McNabb was on track to set a new single season passing record in DC???

Always good to keep some perspective when things get this bad.[/quote]

you are right about the passing record. that was a story in 2010. But it's crazy because you watch the film on some of those games and DM5 was absolutely horrible. He looked like a QB who had nothing left. Watching him in Minnesota was even worse. He was a product of the Andy Reid system. Nothing more nothing less.....

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=Paintrain;1044408]For arguments sake, here are the QB that were available in the respective drafts at our draft slot in the Shanahan era.. Is there anyone in the list you'd rather have over RGIII, even considering the price?

2010 Tebow, Clausen, McCoy
2011 Gabbert, Ponder, Dalton, Kaepernick, Mallett
2012 Tannehill, Weeden, Osweiler, Wilson, Foles

IMO, perhaps Dalton but I'm not sold that he hasn't already reached his ceiling. Kaepernick or Wilson I'd be fine with but only because of the cost of picks. Also think that Dalton or Kaepernick would have meant 'over drafting' them in the 1st round that year or trading picks to move up in the 2nd round.[/quote]

We also have to account would any of these QBs perform well with the current state of the offense. There are many variables at play as you have mentioned in previous posts, but assuming we drafted offense I am not sure we have too many impact players at o-line and wr in the league from the 2012 and 2013 draft that we would've been able to select. Of course once again, assuming we don't trade down for more picks etc. As Matty said if the cap penalty came out before the trade, the trade or the pick up of PG for that matter, may not have occurred.

[QUOTE=The Goat;1044451]What's interesting and even now ironic is that McNabb wasn't the problem, it was having the worst defense in the league. If memory serves McNabb was on track to set a new single season passing record in DC???

Always good to keep some perspective when things get this bad.[/QUOTE]

Yup. K. Shanahan's offenses can even make weak armed, decrepit QB's who refuse to practice look good.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=The Goat;1044451][url=http://www.csnwashington.com/football-washington-redskins/talk/donovan-mcnabb-says-shanahan-needs-accountability?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo]Donovan McNabb says Shanahan needs accountability | Comcast SportsNet Washington[/url]

What's interesting and even now ironic is that McNabb wasn't the problem, it was having the worst defense in the league. If memory serves McNabb was on track to set a new single season passing record in DC???

Always good to keep some perspective when things get this bad.[/quote]

Passing yards are completely overblown now a days, more importantly he had only 14 tds to 15 ints and I believe 10 fumbles (can't remember how many were lost) as well as finishing the season with a lower QBR than Sexy Rexy.

Mcnabb needs to shut the f up about this team already, no one around these parts is hearing any of his talk. I swear every time he opens his mouth about this team it sounds like a jilted lover talking about their ex.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=skinsfanthru&thru;1044478]Passing yards are completely overblown now a days, more importantly he had only 14 tds to 15 ints and I believe 10 fumbles (can't remember how many were lost) as well as finishing the season with a lower QBR than Sexy Rexy.

[B]Mcnabb needs to shut the f up about this team already, no one around these parts is hearing any of his talk. I swear every time he opens his mouth about this team it sounds like a jilted lover talking about their ex.[/B][/quote]

Pretty much.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=Paintrain;1044412]So I'm curious, specifically which 2 players (which is the net loss of the trade so far) would have impacted our fortunes this season?[/quote]

Well since it was obvious Fletcher needed to be replaced since he's 50 hears old, perhaps we take Luke Kuechly. Not too hard of a pick. Then you go get your QB in the 2nd round. They had first round grades on Wilson and Cousins yet no one was taking either in the first, so go get one of them a round EARLY, rather than mortgage your future. Then take an olinemen this year, maybe Kyle Long and you have your pick next year. Sounds like GM 101 to me. But the Redskins do what they do best....overpay. Here's what it comes down to. Was RG3 miles better than Wilson, Foles or Cousins? No way.

If this team was a QB away from contending? Make the deal. But that simply was not the case.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=The Goat;1044452]Anybody know Ephraim Salaam's history there saying he "saw it in Denver?"[/quote]

Salaam played two years in Denver. Looks like he was a starting left tackl:
(02-03)(9-7) line allowed 46 sacks (7.7% sack ratio), Clinton Portis got 1500+ yards;
(03--04)(10-6), 25 sacks (5%) and, again, Portis got 1500+ yards..

[url=http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2002.htm]2002 Denver Broncos Statistics & Players - Pro-Football-Reference.com[/url]
[url=http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/denver-broncos/roster/2002]2002 Denver Broncos Roster - The Football Database[/url]

2002 - No team in AFC West had a losing record.
2003 - KC 13-3; Oak & SD double digit losses.

Not sure Salaam's beef. Clearly in the minority from players who have anything to say about Shanahan. John Keim recently said that many players are convinced that the right guy (Shanahan) is the leading the team and that they feel like they are letting the coaches down.

[quote]It's the proper attitude to have. Again, it's a locker room full of proper attitudes. The locker room culture is better than it was during Jim Zorn's two seasons as coach, when backstabbing happened all the time. You still don't hear players knocking the head coach; even privately, it's just the opposite.
[/quote][url=http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/3234/redskins-moving-in-wrong-direction]Redskins moving in wrong direction - Washington Redskins Blog - ESPN[/url]

[quote]One player said what bothered him is that they're letting the coaches down. Many privately feel strongly about having the right person in charge. Great. Then win.[/quote][url=http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/3251/49ers-27-redskins-6-ten-observations]49ers 27, Redskins 6: Ten Observations - Washington Redskins Blog - ESPN[/url]

[quote]Fletcher also praised Shanahan.

“Our coaches do a great job of emphasizing situations, fundamentals,” he said. “[Shanahan] is always stressing the little things, making sure you do it. He’ll emphasize it all the time. If something happens in practice we’ll repeat plays to make sure we’re doing it the right way, the way it needs to be done. It all comes back to the individuals and players going out and doing their job.”

But they also know that no matter what they say a bad finish could result in big changes.

“We won’t let anyone give up on this team,” Fletcher said. “We don’t have those type of guys.”[/quote] [url]http://www.thewarpath.net/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1044452[/url]

None of this is meant as "Keep Shanahan" endorsement. Only as a response to the concept that he's lost the locker room or that he's spreading a poison. Bottom line, however, is the win column, and that is just not happening.

The other big strike against Shanahan is that his daddy kicked Goat in the nuts every day for a year.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1044481]Well since it was obvious Fletcher needed to be replaced since he's 50 hears old, perhaps we take Luke Kuechly. Not too hard of a pick. Then you go get your QB in the 2nd round. They had first round grades on Wilson and Cousins yet no one was taking either in the first, so go get one of them a round EARLY, rather than mortgage your future. Then take an olinemen this year, maybe Kyle Long and you have your pick next year. Sounds like GM 101 to me. But the Redskins do what they do best....overpay. Here's what it comes down to. Was RG3 miles better than Wilson, Foles or Cousins? No way.

If this team was a QB away from contending? Make the deal. But that simply was not the case.[/quote]Hindsight is 20-20. Before the Haloti Ngata hit, Griffin was the most unstoppable offensive force in the league, and you could argue that the Skins had underpaid. Even playing his final two starts on one leg, he is the ONLY player in league history to lead in BOTH yards per passing attempt AND yards per rushing attempt. He effectively masked a below average O-line, which has been exposed since Griffin still doesn't have his pre-Ngata explosion. Luck and Griffin had pre-draft grades that were miles ahead of Wilson, Foles, and Cousins. Griffin is still only 10 months removed from a knee reconstruction, and I believe has a higher upside than any of those three. Let's see what happens after a full year in the offseason program, and with a bolstered O-line after our return from cap hell. If you can't tell, I'm still bullish on Robert Griffin.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=SouperMeister;1044490]Hindsight is 20-20. Before the Haloti Ngata hit, Griffin was the most unstoppable offensive force in the league, and you could argue that the Skins had underpaid. Even playing his final two starts on one leg, he is the ONLY player in league history to lead in BOTH yards per passing attempt AND yards per rushing attempt. He effectively masked a below average O-line, which has been exposed since Griffin still doesn't have his pre-Ngata explosion. Luck and Griffin had pre-draft grades that were miles ahead of Wilson, Foles, and Cousins. Griffin is still only 10 months removed from a knee reconstruction, and I believe has a higher upside than any of those three. Let's see what happens after a full year in the offseason program, and with a bolstered O-line after our return from cap hell. If you can't tell, I'm still bullish on Robert Griffin.[/quote]

I'm bullish too, Soupy!

I firmly believe that he's once again going to be a difference maker, primarily our of the pocket, starting next season. He is way too smart not to learn his craft. He is way too talented not to excel at his craft once he learns it. He is way to dedicated not to learn it and excel at it.

Skinsfan69 is a good poster and I learn from him and agree with him on many of the points he makes. But this time I have to go with you. All RGIII needs is more time and a decent OL. Actually, the order of things should be a decent OL, then more time working behind a decent OL.

I think it may actually turn out to be a good thing that the OL has been exposed. Maybe now, whoever picks the players this offseason will address the pressing need of fixing the pass protection problems.

RGIII is never going to be able to perform to the level that we are all hoping he can attain unless the pass protection is markedly improved next season.

[QUOTE=Chico23231;1044137]Shanny f*cked up the rotation by not sitting RG3 after halftime in the Seattle game.[/QUOTE]

This.

[QUOTE=donofriose;1044129]Depends on what RG3 becomes. If he is bust it would be trading for him.
If not, McNabb.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but based on our need at the position and what Griffs potential was I dont think that trade can ever be considered a mistake. Now hiring a career loser like Jim Haslett, or keeping a one legged RG-3 in the game against Seattle, or McNabb? They were headscratchers from the get go.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

Biggest mistake of the Shannahan era, leaving RGIII in the Seattle game after he was obviously hurt going out of bounds during the drive to go up 14-0. That one event has changed everything...period. My wife is hardly a football fan, she was however a collegiate level athlete and it was obvious to her that he was hurt. How a sixty year old coach who has probably 40+ years of experience could not see this is dumbfounding, and hard to believe.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

the 34 defense, and Jim Haslett. COMPLETE FAILURE.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

I think RG3 has done the best that any of the young qbs could have done with whats been given to him, players, defense, as well as shitty coaching. I hope Mike S. is done, but I fear Snyder will give him one more season to turn it around............

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=Mechanix544;1044522]I think RG3 has done the best that any of the young qbs could have done with whats been given to him, players, defense, as well as shitty coaching. [B]I hope Mike S. is done, but I fear Snyder will give him one more season to turn it around..[/B]..........[/quote]

Just some humor in the face of all the drama.. Not too long ago we were killing Snyder for being too quick to pull the plug on a coach, now we're concerned he's going to be too patient. Lol..

[QUOTE=Paintrain;1044575]Just some humor in the face of all the drama.. Not too long ago we were killing Snyder for being too quick to pull the plug on a coach, now we're concerned he's going to be too patient. Lol..[/QUOTE]

Lol. I think Snyder has taken huge steps by just staying out of the picture in general. Letting the football people run the show. That being said I think four years has been pretty patient. Based on the fact that year four saw us take a huge step backwards he has been extremely patient.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

Definitely McNabb.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1044481]Well since it was obvious Fletcher needed to be replaced since he's 50 hears old, perhaps we take Luke Kuechly. Not too hard of a pick. Then you go get your QB in the 2nd round. They had first round grades on Wilson and Cousins yet no one was taking either in the first, so go get one of them a round EARLY, rather than mortgage your future. Then take an olinemen this year, maybe Kyle Long and you have your pick next year. Sounds like GM 101 to me. But the Redskins do what they do best....overpay. Here's what it comes down to. Was RG3 miles better than Wilson, Foles or Cousins? No way.

If this team was a QB away from contending? Make the deal. But that simply was not the case.[/quote]

I would see us drafting Trent Richardson as that would've been an area of concern and we just drafted LB in the first round last year. We needed an upgrade at RB, but it is clear the FO and coaching staff still had faith in Fletcher getting it done.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=BaltimoreSkins;1045347]I would see us drafting Trent Richardson as that would've been an area of concern and we just drafted LB in the first round last year. We needed an upgrade at RB, but it is clear the FO and coaching staff still had faith in Fletcher getting it done.[/quote]

No way. Not sure Mike has ever drafted a RB in the first round and he wouldn't have started with T-Rich either.

[QUOTE=NC_Skins;1045353]No way. Not sure Mike has ever drafted a RB in the first round and he wouldn't have started with T-Rich either.[/QUOTE]

Yeah.....no way.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=Mattyk;1044196]I've never seen the 3-4 as the problem, just the players and coach running it.

The legendary top 10 4-3 we had was old and lacked playmakers and needed an overhaul anyway.

As far as the trade that everyone is knocking now don't forget that the cap penalty came afterwards. Gotta think that trade doesn't happen if they knew the cap hit was coming.[/quote]

So, with this reasoning, Shanahan made the right decision to dismantle a top 10 defense, switch to a 34 with an unproven coach, and the trade for a franchise qb wouldnt have happened if he knew he was going to get docked for sweeping contract money into an uncapped year?

Yeah, this guy made all the correct moves considering, and definitely should be leading our squad....................NOT.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

I want to know if Shanahan was always the target for Snyder the minute Zorn was gone or was there others who were being considered.

I don't really remember hearing about anybody else other than Mike S....

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=Chico23231;1044236[B][I]]If thats the case, how could he lead a team to the playoffs after a 3-6 start?[/I][/B] If the culture was so bad, this couldnt have happened last year. I dont think its the locker room or the culture of the organization. I think thats pretty solid actually.[/quote]

The answer to that is simple. It was a three man show that got that done. RG3, Alf and Garcon. The success this team has had, and the flashes of brilliance it has shown at times is in SPITE of Shanahans bad drafting, player management, bad playcalling, bad clock management, bad personnel moves, bad devaluing of current tradable assets, bad too many other things to list.

Until we get fresh blood on the sidelines to work with our franchise QB and RB, we will be mired in mediocrity and underperformance. And that is squarely on Mike "24-37" Shanahan. The game has passed this guy by. Time to frikkin cut bait.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=SolidSnake84;1046030]I want to know if Shanahan was always the target for Snyder the minute Zorn was gone or was there others who were being considered.

I don't really remember hearing about anybody else other than Mike S....[/quote]

Snyder was talking to Shanahan when Zorn was still here. He even wanted to can Zorn during the season and let Shanahan take over.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=Mattyk;1046043]Snyder was talking to Shanahan when Zorn was still here. He even wanted to can Zorn during the season and let Shanahan take over.[/quote]

Remember rumors had it that if they were able to pull off the Cutler trade, they would have fired Zorn that spring after the 8-8 season and hire Shanahan.

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

[quote=SolidSnake84;1046030]I want to know if Shanahan was always the target for Snyder the minute Zorn was gone or was there others who were being considered.

I don't really remember hearing about anybody else other than Mike S....[/quote]

Jon Gruden

Re: Worst Mistake of the Shanahan Era
 

Oh to trip back on memory lane. I still wish after Gibbs retiring we made G Williams HC and Saunders asst HC offense and let him run the offense exclusively, choosing who starts between JC and Todd Collins.

Maybe not a long term solution with Vinny still in the picture but I would put that coaching staff against anything we've had since.