Re: Next years QB
 

Each one of them (Snyder, Griffin, Shanahan) can hold interviews blaming the others...and they would all be correct.

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1107848]Each one of them (Snyder, Griffin, Shanahan) can hold interviews blaming the others...and they would all be correct.[/quote]

So basically nobody is on the same page...just like I said, complete disfunction.

I dont understand why a supposid "genius" business man as Snyder doesnt see the organizational flaws...its really amazing. I guess ego?

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1107848]Each one of them (Snyder, Griffin, Shanahan) can hold interviews blaming the others...and they would all be correct.[/quote]

Exactly. Which makes no sense why people are acting like some freaking mystery has been solved by what's been said in Shanny's mudslinging tour.

Everyone in the organization: Snyder, Allen, Shanahan, and Griffin have done their part to screw things up. People just need to accept that and move on.

Hopefully the organization has learned from this latest f*ck up. The latest moves by the team point in that direction, but it will take a while to see if that's the case.

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=Chico23231;1107850]So basically nobody is on the same page...just like I said, complete disfunction.

I dont understand why a supposid "genius" business man as Snyder doesnt see the organizational flaws...its really amazing. I guess ego?[/quote]

Ego and probably more so insecurity

Anyhow, what Shanahan can say in his defense is that he wasn't here last year and the issues were as bad, if not worse

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=Chico23231;1107850]So basically nobody is on the same page...just like I said, complete disfunction.

[B]I dont understand why a supposid "genius" business man as Snyder doesnt see the organizational flaws...its really amazing. I guess ego?[/B][/quote]

Without dysfunctional Bruce, who will dysfunctional Snyder drink with?

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1107854]Ego and probably more so insecurity

Anyhow, what Shanahan can say in his defense is that he wasn't here last year and [B]the issues were as bad, if not worse[/B][/quote]

*sigh*...same ole same ole...

Im really hoping this FO gives Scot McC the automony to do his job and the patience and support with an outside-looking in type setup.

Can Snyder just stay the eff away...damn

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=Chico23231;1107858]*sigh*...same ole same ole...

Im really hoping this FO gives Scot McC the automony to do his job and the patience and support with an outside-looking in type setup.

Can Snyder just stay the eff away...damn[/quote]

They'll more than likely fuck this up just like they do everything else. They'll bring him in and then tie his hands behind his back so he can't do his job. They'll ditch him and move onto the next guy. Rinse and Repeat.

History does indeed repeat itself.

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1107863]They'll more than likely fuck this up just like they do everything else. [B]They'll bring him in and then tie his hands behind his back so he can't do his job. They'll ditch him and move onto the next guy[/B]. Rinse and Repeat.

History does indeed repeat itself.[/quote]

Honestly, if that happens, I really do think that could be the last straw for a significant portion of the fan base. Folks believe that given Scot's track record, he's the best move we've made in a long, long time, and someone who really has the potential to get the franschise on track. If he's not afforded that chance because of meddling or other stupidity, I am sure some will conclude -- myself among them -- that the franchise is simply never going to win with Snyder as owner. And since he's my age and doesn't seem like the guy who will ever sell the team, there's basically little reason for hope in the future. At that point, I will think about another team -- sad for me, as I have been a fan since the mid-1970s.

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1107854]Ego and probably more so insecurity

[B]Anyhow, what Shanahan can say in his defense is that he wasn't here last year and the issues were as bad, if not worse[/B][/quote]

They were worse!
Could the actual biggest problem be that DS runs his football operations like a business where the owner calls all the shots?
The inner workings of the team (football operations) like FO, coaching and player personnel/development should not be run like a business.
As has been proven over and over again the last 15years is DS is not a football man and never will be one. So stop making football operations decisions. Much less overriding all of the football professionals you hired and you picking our starting QB.
DS wants qualified football professionals running his team, but the first time they make a decision DS does not agree with he cuts their nuts off.

Re: Next years QB
 

imo

BA seems to be a good executive

SM seems to be a good/great personnel guy

if the DS lets BA and SM do their thing, then DS can be a good owner

.. this is coming from a guy who also thinks the DS caused a lot of self-inflicted problems.

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=calia;1107865]Honestly, if that happens, I really do think that could be the last straw for a significant portion of the fan base. Folks believe that given Scot's track record, he's the best move we've made in a long, long time, and someone who really has the potential to get the franschise on track. If he's not afforded that chance because of meddling or other stupidity, I am sure some will conclude -- myself among them -- that the franchise is simply never going to win with Snyder as owner. And since he's my age and doesn't seem like the guy who will ever sell the team, there's basically little reason for hope in the future. At that point, I will think about another team -- sad for me, as I have been a fan since the mid-1970s.[/quote]

This is a great post, but i think i speak for most when i say that many have already concluded that we will never win with Snyder as owner.

Re: Next years QB
 

I will say for sure ..IF with this current line up ( front office) ..if within 2 years we are not posting winning records..then all is lost with Snyder..This surrounding cast is far and away the best the REDSKINS have had since GIBBS FIRST JOB..I say lets all give it a chance and maybe we can go 8-8 next year ..but the year after I am looking at playoffs..we will see.

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=SolidSnake84;1107874]This is a great post, but i think i speak for most when i say that many have already concluded that we will never win with Snyder as owner.[/quote]

What's so frustrating is that it ought to be relatively easy to avoid this conclusion -- just stay out of the way and let football people run the show. I am fine with Allen on contracts and McCloughan as the GM -- they ought to be able to bring in and retain sufficient talent to turn things around. Just let 'em, Danny. I beg you.

Re: Next years QB
 

Finally someone says it

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/wp/2015/02/23/mike-shanahan-continues-to-blame-everyone-but-himself-for-his-failure-with-the-redskins/]Mike Shanahan continues to blame everyone but himself for his failure with the Redskins - The Washington Post[/url]

And

[url=http://www.theczabe.com/the-post/plenty-blame-go-around-shanny-taking-almost-none/]Plenty of Blame to Go Around, But Shanny Is Taking Almost None of It | Czabe.com[/url]

Re: Next years QB
 

Everyone needs to try and vividly remember the chaos that Shanny created in 2013. Plenty of blame can be spread but Shanny is as guilty or more than anyone.

Re: Next years QB
 

Oh Please!
There.......must be some way to twist this back into Dan's wheelhouse?
It's the Burgundy and Gold tradition....

Re: Next years QB
 

A really interesting monologue by Keim where he tosses out some passer rating and sack statistics as they relate to time in the pocket and talks about the possibility of committing to Griffin this year with upgrades in the line, TEs and backs:

[url=http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/16602/how-to-make-rg-iii-a-pocket-passer]How to make Robert Griffin III a pocket passer - Washington Redskins Blog - ESPN[/url]

The jist is that Griffin had a passer rating of about 70 when he had 2.5 seconds or more. He says that more time doesn't necessarily equate to being more effective.

He also said that 21 of his 33 sacks came after 2.5 seconds or more.

There was some passionate discussion a few weeks ago comparing sack rates, passer rating, and interceptions between Griffin and Cousins.

The sack stat, I believe is a lot more concerning than the passer rating with Griffin's tendency to get hurt badly.

I'm really curious about the "why" on both.

I'm guessing there weren't a ton of 7 step drops called last year. I wonder how many were broken plays.

Thoughts?

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=DYoungJelly;1111038]A really interesting monologue by Keim where he tosses out some passer rating and sack statistics as they relate to time in the pocket and talks about the possibility of committing to Griffin this year with upgrades in the line, TEs and backs:

[url=http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/16602/how-to-make-rg-iii-a-pocket-passer]How to make Robert Griffin III a pocket passer - Washington Redskins Blog - ESPN[/url]

The jist is that Griffin had a passer rating of about 70 when he had 2.5 seconds or more. He says that more time doesn't necessarily equate to being more effective.....

I'm really curious about the "why" on both.

I'm guessing there weren't a ton of 7 step drops called last year. I wonder how many were broken plays.

Thoughts?[/quote]GP and thanks for passing along the article.

Awhile back I looked into some of the advance metric numbers from PFF and Football Outsiders for our QB group from last year (Rob, Kirk and Colt).

And it tough to boil everything down into a quick sound bite like Keim had in the above article. BUT he's right about the pass protection especially form the TEs and RBs which was terrible.

On the point about Griffin's passer rating 69 (PFF has it at [U][COLOR="DarkRed"]66[/COLOR][/U] ftr) with 2.5s he's right but it doesn't mean that Griffin neccesarily "struggles" when he has more time. Just for comparison sake Kirk passer rating with 2.5s + is [COLOR="Red"][B]62[/B][/COLOR] and Colt McCoy is [B][COLOR="SeaGreen"]106[/COLOR][/B].
I think these numbers could be indicative of what happens with our QBs after the initial progression doesn't show open more then how they respond to having more time as Keim said. I think breakdown by time +/- 2.5s shows why Jay likes Colt; the stats seem to indicate Colt is far more productive passer after the first progression and/or when the play breaks down.

On the sacks....Colt actually has the highest sack rate (3.5) in the +2.5s time frame (although only by a hair over Griffin) Kirk had the lowest sack rate

I think this topic could warrant its on thread but...I missed the thread with the previous discussion that I missed and don't want to start another.

Cheers

Re: Next years QB
 

^ Nice analysis.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=30gut;1111042]GP and thanks for passing along the article.

Awhile back I looked into some of the advance metric numbers from PFF and Football Outsiders for our QB group from last year (Rob, Kirk and Colt).

And it tough to boil everything down into a quick sound bite like Keim had in the above article. BUT he's right about the pass protection especially form the TEs and RBs which was terrible.

On the point about Griffin's passer rating 69 (PFF has it at [U][COLOR="DarkRed"]66[/COLOR][/U] ftr) with 2.5s he's right but it doesn't mean that Griffin neccesarily "struggles" when he has more time. Just for comparison sake Kirk passer rating with 2.5s + is [COLOR="Red"][B]62[/B][/COLOR] and Colt McCoy is [B][COLOR="SeaGreen"]106[/COLOR][/B].
I think these numbers could be indicative of what happens with our QBs after the initial progression doesn't show open more then how they respond to having more time as Keim said. I think breakdown by time +/- 2.5s shows why Jay likes Colt; the stats seem to indicate Colt is far more productive passer after the first progression and/or when the play breaks down.

On the sacks....Colt actually has the highest sack rate (3.5) in the +2.5s time frame (although only by a hair over Griffin) Kirk had the lowest sack rate

I think this topic could warrant its on thread but...I missed the thread with the previous discussion that I missed and don't want to start another.

Cheers[/quote]

Very cool.

What was Cousins' sack rate after 2.5 seconds?

Based on what you observed from the advanced metrics, do you see any situational patterns on Cousins' interceptions?

Re: Next years QB
 

I think that Kirk Cousins could be good if he had a running game, bigger targets, and a defense. Last season he through a lot of picks, but he threw some tds too. I think he'll be benefit under a second season in the offense. We should have a open qb competition. As far as I'm concern RG3 hasn't shown me anything that would suggest that he's a franchise qb. He does have tremendous talent. So I'm not going to count him out. But I'm not optimistic about him or his future. If RG3 is named the starter it should be because he beat out all the other qbs on the roster. Our decision to start him shouldn't have anything to do with how much we gave up for him. I have a feelings that RG3 will be the starter because we want all of those picks we gave up to pay off. And not because he's the best qb on the roster.

Re: Next years QB
 

[B][U]2.5 seconds or less: [/U][/B]
% of throws under 2.5 seconds/Attempts......Comp%.....Sacks.....QB rating
Rob...........................49%/122 atts.............80............7...............100
Colt...........................51%/74 atts..............74............2.................89
Kirk............................60%/126 atts............70............2................102

Kirk threw more then half his passes in 2.5 or less had the lowest comp% and just edges out Griff in QB rating.
Griff threw about half his passes in less then 2.5 and had the highest comp% second highest rating but took the most sacks.
Colt again threw about half his passes in less then 2.5 had the middle comp% but lowest QB rating.

[B][U]2.6 seconds or more:[/U][/B]
% of throws over 2.6/Attempts.....Comp%.........Sacks...............QB rating
Rob........51%/92 atts.....................53..............26..........................66
Colt........49%/54 atts....................67...............15........................106
Kirk.........40%/78 atts...................49.................6..........................62



Colt separates himself highest QB rating and highest comp % but took sacks about the same rate as Griff ~3.5 snaps/sacks.
Kirk lowest comp% lowest QB rating but also the lowest sack ratio.
Griff was in the middle in terms of comp% and QB rating but like Colt took sacks.

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=DYoungJelly;1111044]What was Cousins' sack rate after 2.5 seconds? [/quote]1 sack per 13 drop backs over 2.5s

[quote=DYoungJelly;1111044]Based on what you observed from the advanced metrics, [B]do you see any situational patterns on Cousins' interceptions[/B]?[/quote]Nah I don't see any pattern from the times stats for Kirk's interceptions but I would guess they have a negative impact on his passer rating in the +2.5s category.

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=redskinsfan1980;1111045]I think that Kirk Cousins could be good if he had a running game, bigger targets, and a defense. Last season he through a lot of picks, but he threw some tds too. I think he'll be benefit under a second season in the offense. We should have a open qb competition. As far as I'm concern RG3 hasn't shown me anything that would suggest that he's a franchise qb. He does have tremendous talent. So I'm not going to count him out. But I'm not optimistic about him or his future. If RG3 is named the starter it should be because he beat out all the other qbs on the roster. Our decision to start him shouldn't have anything to do with how much we gave up for him. [B]I have a feelings that RG3 will be the starter because we want all of those picks we gave up to pay off. And not because he's the best qb on the roster.[/B][/quote]

At this point those picks better be considered a sunk cost and not factor into any decision with RG3. I personally don't think they will.

Re: Next years QB
 

I do not think it is accurate to just look at the stats that you put up and think is a realistic and legitimate comparison. You are only as good as who you play against, in this case they are Qb's, so what defenses did they play against?
Cousins played against two of the top defenses Seattle and Cardinals. two average defenses Giants and Eagles and one bad one Jax. Won 1 and lost 4. But he threw 10 TD's and 9 int's.
RGIII Played against 4 bad non-playoff teams: Tampa, Houston, Minnesota and Jax and one good team in SF. Did not win a single winnable game and most embarrassingly threw 2 td's and was sacked a ton.
Another huge factor the stats do not show is Gruden did not run the same plays for all three QB's. I remember even Griffen complaining very loudly on the sideline to Coach Gruden after he was replaced for Cousin, saying 'why didn't you call those plays for me when I was in?'
Clearly RGIII was being protected from himself and his inability to absorb and play the entire playbook. Gruden called a more simplified version of the playbook for Griffen because he could not handle it. Cousins was asked to do a lot more, proof is the fact that RGIII completing 21 more passes but Cousins threw for more yards and a lot TD's.

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=Defensewins;1111052]I do not think it is accurate to just look at the stats that you put up and think is a realistic and legitimate comparison. You are only as good as who you play against, in this case they are Qb's, so what defenses did they play against?
Cousins played against two of the top defenses Seattle and Cardinals. two average defenses Giants and Eagles and one bad one Jax. Won 1 and lost 4. But he threw 10 TD's and 9 int's.
RGIII Played against 4 bad non-playoff teams: Tampa, Houston, Minnesota and Jax and one good team in SF. Did not win a single winnable game and most embarrassingly threw 2 td's and was sacked a ton.
Another huge factor the stats do not show is Gruden did not run the same plays for all three QB's. I remember even Griffen complaining very loudly on the sideline to Coach Gruden after he was replaced for Cousin, saying 'why didn't you call those plays for me when I was in?'
Clearly RGIII was being protected from himself and his inability to absorb and play the entire playbook. Gruden called a more simplified version of the playbook for Griffen because he could not handle it. Cousins was asked to do a lot more, proof is the fact that RGIII completing 21 more passes but Cousins threw for more yards and a lot TD's.[/quote]

Nice post. This is why the coaches should know more about talent eval than these stats will ever show, always. Given differences in schemes, called plays, defenses, injuries around to OL/WR/opposing offenses, clutch plays vs 4th quarter trash time, etc. PFF and other websites purport to take all of it into account, but it's too complex to put into one chart.

Re: Next years QB
 

Stat comparison from both Philly games last year:

1st game Cousins:

[url=http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=400554203]Washington Redskins vs. Philadelphia Eagles - Box Score - September 21, 2014 - ESPN[/url]

2nd Game Griffin:

[url=http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=400554366]Philadelphia Eagles vs. Washington Redskins - Box Score - December 20, 2014 - ESPN[/url]

Cousins -------------------------------Griffin
30/48----------------------------------16/23 Completions/ Attempts
427 Passing yards --------------------220 Passing yards
3 TD------------------------------------0 TD
1 INT-----------------------------------1 INT
0 QB HITS -----------------------------7 QB HITS
0 Sacks---------------------------------2 Sacks

Redskins Team rushing:
23/84 Attempts/Yards-----------------29/100 Attempts/Yards
3.0 yard average-----------------------3.4 yard average


Griffin edged Cousins in the only stat that mattered, the final score.

I love Cousins' stat line from the first game, but I love the outcome from the second game more. The defense did play a role in the outcome of both games.

Despite the numbers, JG didn't have enough confidence in Cousins to put him in at the end of the season.

If Griffin is truly our starter going into 2015, then our most pressing need is a reliable 2nd string QB that can come in when the next catastrophic injury happens.

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1111051]At this point those picks better be considered a sunk cost and not factor into any decision with RG3. I personally don't think they will.[/quote]
If he wasn't named the starter going into the offseason then I would be more optimistic. We all know he's done nothing to earn the starting spot. The only reason they would do such a thing is because they're looking for some returns on their investment. In my opinion, it's totally alright to show patience, but this guy has been 100% pure garbage for the last two seasons. What makes me so pessimistic is that I haven't seen not one sign of improvement. Not only hasn't he not learned a thing about playing qb, but he still hasn't learnt to keep his mouth shut.

Re: Next years QB
 

In fairness, in the last two seasons, Griffin has also (1) missed an entire offseason due to his ACL injury; and (2) missed significant time due to an injury that would been a season ender for most folks. In addition, the nature of the injuries required an alteration to the way he fundamentally played the position (i.e. couldn't rely on his explosiveness and escapability any more).

Trust me, I fully get the guys faults when it comes to reading defenses, working progressions, holding the ball to long, receptiveness to coaching, etc. At the same time, neither he nor Kirk have separated themselves from the other in terms of their play - each is flawed. From his athletic ability, arm-strength and potential for improvement as he (hopefully) learns to be more of a drop back style QB, I would suggest Griffin still has the higher upside than Kirk who is playing the same offense (essentially) that he played in college and is making the same mental mistakes he made then.

At this point, neither is someone you look at and say "Oh yeah. He's The Guy." I believe Griffin gets the nod, not b/c of his draft cost/status, but b/c he simply is (still) the more physically gifted player at the position.

Re: Next years QB
 

Naming him starter was simply to stop the media from it's incessant hounding (imo). And Redskins fans in general are never going to be content with any qb. That's been proven time and again.

The team seems to be making appropriate football moves regarding players, so if they start Griffin, I believe it's because he's the best option. If they don't then he wasn't. I very seriously doubt the draft picks factor in to Gruden/SM's thinking at all since they didn't trade for him, and the picks won't be recaptured regardless of whether he starts, sits, or is traded.

Re: Next years QB
 

^^ nicely stated.

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1111071]In fairness, in the last two seasons, Griffin has also (1) missed an entire offseason due to his ACL injury; and (2) missed significant time due to an injury that would been a season ender for most folks. In addition, the nature of the injuries required an alteration to the way he fundamentally played the position (i.e. couldn't rely on his explosiveness and escapability any more).

Trust me, I fully get the guys faults when it comes to reading defenses, working progressions, holding the ball to long, receptiveness to coaching, etc. At the same time, neither he nor Kirk have separated themselves from the other in terms of their play - each is flawed. From his athletic ability, arm-strength and potential for improvement as he (hopefully) learns to be more of a drop back style QB, I would suggest Griffin still has the higher upside than Kirk who is playing the same offense (essentially) that he played in college and is making the same mental mistakes he made then.

At this point, neither is someone you look at and say "Oh yeah. He's The Guy." I believe Griffin gets the nod, not b/c of his draft cost/status, but b/c he simply is (still) the more physically gifted player at the position.[/quote]

While Griffin is a work horse when it comes to working out and getting fit physically. I can not say the same thing when it comes to the mental part of playing QB in the NFL. Proof is in the fact he is in his 4th year (?) and he is mentally...not ready. With all that time he missed due to injuries, that you talk about, he did not come back any more prepared mentally.
I was disappointed to hear Gruden had to dummy down the playbook/game plan for Griffin. I hope he comes back better than ever. I would be ok giving him another chance in 2015 but his attitude has to change. His inflated ego could not fit through the locker room door.
The biggest thing for me is there has to be a real competition at EVERY position. No free rides please. That shit I hope is gone now that we have a new GM. I do not want to see Gruden being told who he should start at QB.
Our Head coach and GM should decide who starts, not someone else.

Re: Next years QB
 

^^ I think it's been made very clear that Griffin is the starter in name only at this point (as CRed' stated in his post) and that, for all intents and purposes, it is an open competition.

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=Defensewins;1111077]While Griffin is a work horse when it comes to working out and getting fit physically. I can not say the same thing when it comes to the mental part of playing QB in the NFL. Proof is in the fact he is in his 4th year (?) and he is mentally...not ready. With all that time he missed due to injuries, that you talk about, he did not come back any more prepared mentally.
I was disappointed to hear Gruden had to dummy down the playbook/game plan for Griffin. I hope he comes back better than ever. I would be ok giving him another chance in 2015 but his attitude has to change. His inflated ego could not fit through the locker room door.
[B]The biggest thing for me is there has to be a real competition at EVERY position. No free rides please. That shit I hope is gone now that we have a new GM. I do not want to see Gruden being told who he should start at QB.
Our Head coach and GM should decide who starts, not someone else[/B].[/quote]

Last year made it clear that yet again that Snyder clearly is still meddling with football decisions. He should have zero input into any personel decisions on the football field. none, Snyder deserves zero respect when it comes to football acument.

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=redskinsfan1980;1111045]I think that Kirk Cousins could be good if he had a running game, bigger targets, and a defense. Last season he through a lot of picks, but he threw some tds too. I think he'll be benefit under a second season in the offense. We should have a open qb competition. As far as I'm concern RG3 hasn't shown me anything that would suggest that he's a franchise qb. He does have tremendous talent. So I'm not going to count him out. But I'm not optimistic about him or his future. If RG3 is named the starter it should be because he beat out all the other qbs on the roster. Our decision to start him shouldn't have anything to do with how much we gave up for him. I have a feelings that RG3 will be the starter because we want all of those picks we gave up to pay off. And not because he's the best qb on the roster.[/quote]

Pretty much sums it up. The glitter of RG3 wore off for me in 2013 when his weaknesses were there for everyone to see. Not to mention all his off season antics.

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=Defensewins;1111052]I do not think it is accurate to just look at the stats that you put up and think is a realistic and legitimate comparison. You are only as good as who you play against, in this case they are Qb's, so what defenses did they play against?
Cousins played against two of the top defenses Seattle and Cardinals. two average defenses Giants and Eagles and one bad one Jax. Won 1 and lost 4. But he threw 10 TD's and 9 int's.
RGIII Played against 4 bad non-playoff teams: Tampa, Houston, Minnesota and Jax and one good team in SF. Did not win a single winnable game and most embarrassingly threw 2 td's and was sacked a ton.
Another huge factor the stats do not show is Gruden did not run the same plays for all three QB's. I remember even Griffen complaining very loudly on the sideline to Coach Gruden after he was replaced for Cousin, saying 'why didn't you call those plays for me when I was in?'
Clearly RGIII was being protected from himself and his inability to absorb and play the entire playbook. Gruden called a more simplified version of the playbook for Griffen because he could not handle it. Cousins was asked to do a lot more, proof is the fact that RGIII completing 21 more passes but Cousins threw for more yards and a lot TD's.[/quote]

I would say 90 percent of Redskins fan fail to realize this. Griffin basically has a pre season offense installed for him. He's not good enough to run the offesne KC has to run. Yeah KC turned it over but he also made a ton of plays too. Griffin even complained about KC having a different offense for the Cleveland game in 2012.

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1111090]I would say 90 percent of Redskins fan fail to realize this. Griffin basically has a pre season offense installed for him. He's not good enough to run the offesne KC has to run. Yeah KC turned it over but he also made a ton of plays too. Griffin even complained about KC having a different offense for the Cleveland game in 2012.[/quote]

I would say 90 percent of skins fans DO realize this.

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1111090]I would say 90 percent of Redskins fan fail to realize this. Griffin basically has a pre season offense installed for him. He's not good enough to run the offesne KC has to run. Yeah KC turned it over but he also made a ton of plays too.[B] Griffin even complained about KC having a different offense for the Cleveland game in 2012.[/B][/quote]

What really disappoints me the most about this particular subject is that Griffin does not get it. His bitching and whining to Gruden ain't gonna change this. He has to earn it on the field.
So he needs to follow the old school way of 'shut your HUGE mouth, put your head down and concentrate on the work in front of you. Listen to your coaches. Don't talk back to your coaches, they know more than you. Do not open your mouth again until you are promoted to the big boy playbook that the other QB's on your team are running.

Re: Next years QB
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1111090]Yeah KC turned it over but he also made a ton of plays too.[/quote]

... just like he did in college. As Lotus (and others) are fond of mentioning, Cousins is, in many ways, Rex Grossman 2.0 - scary streaky. You almost can count on him to make a two gut wrenching turnovers a game.

Here's the thing for me - both KC and RGIII need to change from who they were in college and who they have been in the pros.

For RGIII, he has to transition from an entirely different way of playing the game and adapt his considerable talent to a style of play he has not only never mastered but has never really learned. [I]IF[/I] he can dedicate himself to learning to be different from the QB he has always been, accept his NFL coaches coaching and finally put behind him all the "He's fine, his mechanics are good" enabling he gets from Tedford and Bryles, then [I]maybe[/I], maybe he gets his deep ball mojo back and his low turnover/sack ratio that he had back in college (look at his TD/INT ratio in college - it was insane. Yes, I know, it was a spread offense and, for the spread offense, QB's usually have very good TD/INT ratios). It is all on him - as others have said - to dedicate himself to the film room, listen to the coaches, and accept that he has to walk through an NFL offense before he run it. ---- If he can do all that, his ceiling - even in year four (the guy [I]just[/I] turned 25 in February!) - is simply much, much higher than Kirk's.

For KC, he has to figure out how to stop throwing picks. He needs to change something in how he views the field, works his progressions, or makes his decisions. My problem is that, unlike RGIII's flaws, I just don't know that there is anything that coaching can do to change KC's basic inability to consistently avoid picks. Sure, Gruden dumbed down the offense for KC but KC's constant turnovers completely stymied Gruden:

[quote][About what was causing KC's interceptions]“I don’t know. If I knew, I wouldn’t call those plays,” Gruden said. “They’ve come in bunches. The fourth quarters haven’t been very good to us and I think those are the most important times for us to make plays and get the win.

“I don’t know if he’s forcing them too much or just maybe hesitating on a couple of them. Sometimes you force them, sometimes you just miss the throws … Some of it’s an accuracy issue, some of it’s a footwork issue, some of them are just not believing in what he’s seeing, and some of them are forced.”[/quote]

[url=http://fansided.com/2014/10/16/jay-gruden-doesnt-know-kirk-cousins-throws-interceptions/]Jay Gruden Can't Explain Kirk Cousins' Interceptions[/url]

So, on one hand you have a QB currently incapable of running a pro offense and who has clearly identifiable flaws that may be fixable with solid coaching and a player dedicated to change - a trait the player has not readily demonstrated.

On the other, you have a QB who has a higher floor but is also deeply flawed. Further, it's not even clear that there is a path to fixing his flaws because he has been making the same mistakes throughout his collegiate and professional career and there is no clear, identifiable teaching/coaching point to correct them.

Quite frankly, as much as I truly hope Griffin can get it together and The Guy - I just don't know if he ever will be able to do so. As for KC, I just don't see him ever losing his knack for throwing untimely interceptions - it's just part of who he is.

Re: Next years QB
 

[QUOTE=Defensewins;1111052]I do not think it is accurate to just look at the stats that you put up and think is a realistic and legitimate comparison.[/QUOTE]
Well the stats I posted are [B][I]specifically[/I][/B] in response to this article: [url=http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/16602/how-to-make-rg-iii-a-pocket-passer]How to make Robert Griffin III a pocket passer - Washington Redskins Blog - ESPN[/url]

Where Kiem brought up the topic of 'time in the pocket' and the stats I posted are a realistic comparison in that specific area of production based on time in the pocket.


[QUOTE]Another huge factor the stats do not show is Gruden did not run the same plays for all three QB's.[/QUOTE]I agree that there are a multitude of factors that come into play (for any stats) including the time in the pocket stats. And yeah I agree that the playcalling for the different QBs impacted their performance (and that's a whole 'nother ball of wax).

However this......[QUOTE]I remember even Griffen complaining very loudly on the sideline to Coach Gruden after he was replaced for Cousin, saying 'why didn't you call those plays for me when I was in?'[/QUOTE]When did this happen? Could you post a source or link or report or something?
I'm not saying it didn't but I follow the skins closely and we all know that Griffin is under a huge national microscope where everything that is said or tweeted is on NFL Network how, if true, would something like this go unnoticed or unreported?


[QUOTE]Clearly RGIII was being protected from himself and his inability to absorb and play the entire playbook. Gruden called a more simplified version of the playbook for Griffen because he could not handle it. Cousins was asked to do a lot more....[/QUOTE]I can occasion pass a few of my opinions or thoughts off as accepted fact but aren't you taking a quite a few large leaps here?

Jay Gruden himself commented that Griffin knows the playbook but that he [Jay] was still searching for a gameplan that fit him [Griffin]. I don't think its fair or accurate to say or even guess at 'thee' reason why Jay called plays a certain way and its easily arguably as to whether his playacting/gameplan was right/wrong.
You can assign blame where you want.

Cousins and Colt are obviously more comfortable in playing in Jay's style of West Coast passing game (rhythm drop back progression timing based offense). Colt played in a pure WCO with the Browns and Kirk played in a 'pro-style' rhythm timing offense at Michigan State. So it should be no surprise that they were more comfortable more quickly in Jay's offense. However; what's missing is the accompany delta in production from Kirk. Based on comfort in the offense both should have a more evident separation in production but its only really evident with Colt in the over 2.5s time in pocket category.