Re: Tax bill
 

Everyone knows when you give huge tax cuts to corporations, they reinvest those savings into hiring more workers to boost the economy Matty. Quit being so pessimistic. Whereas if you take money and put it in the hands of the struggling workers, they just sit on it and don't spend it at all.

Re: Tax bill
 

80% of the people in the country will see some tax relief in their paychecks this year. Why can't we at least agree that's not a bad thing, I don't understand that.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=mooby;1184148]Everyone knows when you give huge tax cuts to corporations, they reinvest those savings into hiring more workers to boost the economy Matty. Quit being so pessimistic. Whereas if you take money and put it in the hands of the struggling workers, they just sit on it and don't spend it at all.[/quote]

just a note, you realize that the refundable part of the child tax credits went up in this right? meaning a mother who has two children and 0 tax liability will still see her tax refund go up by nearly $1500. I don't know the exact number so if I'm high or low I am sorry, but the point is that the new tax bill does put money in the hands of those all along the scale. But honestly unless you simply believe in pure redistribution (socialism) if a taxpayer pays $0 in income tax, they are not going to get the same benefit from tax reform as someone who is paying $100,000 in taxes.

Again though, even the mere point of the argument is so outside of the reality that nearly everyone is going to see more take home cash this year vs. last that it's sad our system of political discourse is too broke to acknowledge that.

Re: Tax bill
 

Woohoo can’t wait for the extra Andrew Jackson in my paycheck

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1184156]80% of the people in the country will see some tax relief in their paychecks this year. Why can't we at least agree that's not a bad thing, I don't understand that.[/quote]

I ain't even arguing that, of course all the plebs like myself will enjoy more money in their checks and/or tax returns. Just saying lowering corporate taxes doesn't lead to more job creation.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=MTK;1184144]Don’t worry folks plenty of jobs coming down the line... lots of trickling down. It will be tremendous.[/quote]

Wait till the real estate starts taking a hit,people will be real happy then!:doh:

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1184159]just a note, you realize that the refundable part of the child tax credits went up in this right? meaning a mother who has two children and 0 tax liability [B]will still see her tax refund go up [/B]by nearly $1500. I don't know the exact number so if I'm high or low I am sorry, but the point is that the new tax bill does put money in the hands of those all along the scale. But honestly unless you simply believe in pure redistribution (socialism) if a taxpayer pays $0 in income tax, they are not going to get the same benefit from tax reform as someone who is paying $100,000 in taxes.

Again though, even the mere point of the argument is so outside of the [B]reality that nearly everyone is going to see more take home cash this year vs. last that it's sad our system of political discourse is too broke to acknowledge that[/B].[/quote]

1 - where are you seeing that a parent with 0 tax liability will actually get a refund for child tax credits? What I read is that it is a credit and not refundable but Im not sure if that is for 2017 taxes or 2018.

2 - My bone to pick is with the hypocrisy of it all. The temporary 7 year reduction in fed taxes is some kind of shiny dangling object to distract us from the fact that we will actually be paying more in taxes after 7 years and we will have to cut major programs like medicaid, medicare, social security, infrastructure, education, fed programs to pay for this permanent corporate and top 2% windfall.

I dont need the extra $20 every 2 weeks if I am just going to have to pay it back in 7 years and we have to make major fed program cuts.

Seems like some sleazy car salesman saying they will pay for the first months payment ... never mind the fact that we are overpaying for the car to begin with.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=over the mountain;1184216]1 - where are you seeing that a parent with 0 tax liability will actually get a refund for child tax credits? What I read is that it is a credit and not refundable but Im not sure if that is for 2017 taxes or 2018.

2 - My bone to pick is with the hypocrisy of it all. The temporary 7 year reduction in fed taxes is some kind of shiny dangling object to distract us from the fact that we will actually be paying more in taxes after 7 years and we will have to cut major programs like medicaid, medicare, social security, infrastructure, education, fed programs to pay for this permanent corporate and top 2% windfall.

I dont need the extra $20 every 2 weeks if I am just going to have to pay it back in 7 years and we have to make major fed program cuts.

Seems like some sleazy car salesman saying they will pay for the first months payment ... never mind the fact that we are overpaying for the car to begin with.[/quote]

1-
[url]https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2017/12/21/how-will-the-expanded-child-tax-credit-look-after-tax-reform/#2caba5774205[/url]
[quote]Under tax reform, part of the Child Tax Credit remains nonrefundable but the "old" Additional Child Tax Credit, which was refundable, has essentially been merged into the new credit. I know that sounds confusing but what it means is that the Child Tax Credit is just one credit worth up to $2,000 per child and includes a refundable piece of up to $1,400 per child. To be clear, the $1,400 refundable piece is included as part of the $2,000 Child Tax Credit and is not an additional credit (unlike before).

A refundable credit means that you can take advantage of the credit even if you do not owe any tax. Unlike with a nonrefundable credit, if you don't have any tax liability, the "extra" credit is not lost but is instead refunded to you. To claim the refundable portion, you must have earned income (generally, wages, salary, tips, and net earnings from self-employment). For purposes of the new Child Tax Credit, the refundable portion is equal to 15% of your earned income which exceeds $4,500 up to the maximum credit.[/quote]

This is what I was talking about, but if I am misstating it, I apologize

2- I guess I don't believe 7 year forecasts, never have. Maybe the Congress needs to cut back spending some, maybe tax revenue goes up more then projections, but I highly doubt that in 7 years the Congress of 2024 is going to do a major roll back of taxcuts.

3- I love that people don't care about an extra $20 dollars. I can tell you I don't pick up pennies anymore, but $20 is gas for the week, or the money I send to my daughter's school every week to pay for trip fees and other bills. Is it life changing, for me no - but for a single parent that works hard and still struggles to make ends meet - it is not nothing.

Re: Tax bill
 

No I don’t care about an extra $20 now if it’s going to cause issues down the road, or knowing that some wealthy asshole is the one that’s truly profiting hand over fist. Tax cuts never help the ones that truly need it, they don’t create jobs, and shit doesn’t trickle down. Stop trying to sell us the same tired BS. Just my worthless opinion on it.

Re: Tax bill
 

I'll gladly take anyone's 20 a week who doesn't want it. And if it's a big issue to you you can send your extra cash back to the government:
[URL="https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/gift/gift.htm"]Gift Contributions to Reduce Debt Held by the Public[/URL]
[URL="https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/resources/faq/faq_publicdebt.htm#DebtFinance"]https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/resources/faq/faq_publicdebt.htm#DebtFinance[/URL]
[URL="https://www.pay.gov/public/form/start/23779454"]Gifts to Reduce the Public Debt[/URL]

Re: Tax bill
 

Credskins - thanks for the link. Your understanding seems correct.

How do you feel about Trump saying:

“I shouldn’t say this,” Trump said, “but we essentially repealed Obamacare.”

“Obamacare has been repealed in this bill. We didn’t want to bring it up,” he said. “I told people specifically, ‘Be quiet with the fake-news media because I don’t want them talking too much about it.’ Because I didn’t know how people would —.” Trump didn’t finish that thought, but he said he could admit what had been done “now that it’s approved.”

Wont the increase in premiums for health insurance be much greater than the temporary 2% reduction in fed taxes that I will enjoy for 7 years?

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=over the mountain;1184238]Credskins - thanks for the link. Your understanding seems correct.

How do you feel about Trump saying:

“I shouldn’t say this,” Trump said, “but we essentially repealed Obamacare.”

“Obamacare has been repealed in this bill. We didn’t want to bring it up,” he said. “I told people specifically, ‘Be quiet with the fake-news media because I don’t want them talking too much about it.’ Because I didn’t know how people would —.” Trump didn’t finish that thought, but he said he could admit what had been done “now that it’s approved.”

Wont the increase in premiums for health insurance be much greater than the temporary 2% reduction in fed taxes that I will enjoy for 7 years?[/quote]
I'll defer to Schneed because I have hated the Affordable Care Act from the beginning, and it is one of those areas I don't think I think rationally on.

Fact is, in my opinion, both the tax bill, AND the affordable care act would have better served the country if both parties got their heads out of their group asses and worked for America rather than party line interests. I have said it before I would far prefer seeing a bill that gives ground on my causes - repealing the ACA - and had broad bipartisan support, but fact is the Democrats weren't going to work with President Trump, AND the Republicans weren't going to work with Pres Obama. In both cases the politicians put party ahead of the US interests. and it sucks.

But at this point, IF the dems want to preserve healthcare reform, or immigration reform, then work together and find the common ground and shut out both the progressive extremes and people like me, and get the government working again.

Re: Tax bill
 

Also for the record, words have consequences, and I wish that Trump had Reagan's ability to communicate. Instead, he rarely misses an opportunity to put a foot in a mouth at a moment he should be using to highlight his success.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=mooby;1184148]Everyone knows when you give huge tax cuts to corporations, they reinvest those savings into hiring more workers to boost the economy Matty. Quit being so pessimistic. Whereas if you take money and put it in the hands of the struggling workers, they just sit on it and don't spend it at all.[/quote]

If you think the point is to spur hiring then you don’t get the issue.

The purpose is to dissuade corporations from routing their revenues and profits through foreign governments so they actually pay US taxes instead of European or Canadian taxes.

It’s a tax revenue generating move.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=over the mountain;1184238]Credskins - thanks for the link. Your understanding seems correct.

How do you feel about Trump saying:

“I shouldn’t say this,” Trump said, “but we essentially repealed Obamacare.”

“Obamacare has been repealed in this bill. We didn’t want to bring it up,” he said. “I told people specifically, ‘Be quiet with the fake-news media because I don’t want them talking too much about it.’ Because I didn’t know how people would —.” Trump didn’t finish that thought, but he said he could admit what had been done “now that it’s approved.”

Wont the increase in premiums for health insurance be much greater than the temporary 2% reduction in fed taxes that I will enjoy for 7 years?[/quote]

When he says they effectively repealed ObamaCare, what he’s specifically referencing is the removal of the individual mandate. Before this tax bill passed, everyone had to obtain health insurance or pay a tax penalty. Now with this tax bill there’s no individual mandate. You can go without health insurance and not have to pay any penalty.

So this move effectively defanged the law. The whole point of ObamaCare was to force everyone to sign up, even if they were healthy, and that would help pay for the costs of the sick who signed up quickly.

But let’s be honest, the law had no teeth in the first place. The tax penalties were never set high enough - people just said man healthcare insurance is still more expensive than paying the tax penalty, I’ll just bite the bullet and pay the tax.

Still, parts of the law live on. You can keep your kids on your plan till they’re 26. And nobody can be denied for pre existing conditions. And you can still buy insurance on the exchanges, even if they’re not nearly the bargain everyone hoped they’d be.

So they did put another nail in ObamaCare’s coffin, but it was already being lowered into the ground anyway. Premiums were rising quickly before the penalty was repealed because everyone underestimated how sick the people signing up really were. And since the healthy never signed up, the insurance companies participating either exited or raised rates to keep up with the needs of this very sick population.

It’s a lesson - taking half measures is a half assed approach. You either need to force everyone into the same risk pool (single payer) or you need to retain choice and freedom at the cost of the lives and well-being of the working class.

Re: Tax bill
 

Idk why it won't let me quote your post Schneed but whatever. I know the point is not to spur job creation, but to increase tax revenue by bringing companies back to paying in the US because it's cheaper than overseas. We had that conversation already.

My point is it's ironic how job creation is this big issue when Obama is president, but magically it's a non-issue under Trump. I guess everything will fall in line now that tax reform has passed.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=mooby;1184291]Idk why it won't let me quote your post Schneed but whatever. I know the point is not to spur job creation, but to increase tax revenue by bringing companies back to paying in the US because it's cheaper than overseas. We had that conversation already.

My point is it's ironic how job creation is this big issue when Obama is president, but magically it's a non-issue under Trump. I guess everything will fall in line now that tax reform has passed.[/quote]

Yeah, the unemployment rate is what, 4% now? It’s not an issue. Obama inherited (through no fault of his own) a high unemployment rate. It was a focus because it was a problem.

Re: Tax bill
 

Trump is the one touting one of the major benefits of the bill as more jobs

Re: Tax bill
 

[url=http://www.whec.com/news/cuomo-responds-federal-tax-reform-plan-changes-state-structure/4723810/]Gov. Cuomo considering changes to state taxes in response to federal tax reform plan | WHEC.com[/url]

So high tax states can change their tax code to adapt to the new plan, SHOCKING.

As I said before, if the states don't want to be hit, then change their code to work within the new structure. Nothing wrong with that. I wonder if Cuomo and the NY legislature will actually carry through with it?

Re: Tax bill
 

NY really can’t take much more of a hit so I think Cuomo will get something done

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1184315][url=http://www.whec.com/news/cuomo-responds-federal-tax-reform-plan-changes-state-structure/4723810/]Gov. Cuomo considering changes to state taxes in response to federal tax reform plan | WHEC.com[/url]

So high tax states can change their tax code to adapt to the new plan, SHOCKING.

As I said before, if the states don't want to be hit, then change their code to work within the new structure. Nothing wrong with that. I wonder if Cuomo and the NY legislature will actually carry through with it?[/quote]

Wow...huge positive imo. Good for New York. But we know who will benefit the most...G1 linked a chart early this week.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=Chico23231;1184336]Wow...huge positive imo. Good for New York. But we know who will benefit the most...G1 linked a chart early this week.[/quote]

I wonder if NY citizens will thank Trump for forcing a change in their tax code.

:welcome:

Re: Tax bill
 

[QUOTE=CRedskinsRule;1184337]I wonder if NY citizens will thank Trump for forcing a change in their tax code.



:welcome:[/QUOTE]


Upstate probably would, the city and LI not so much

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=MTK;1184340]Upstate probably would, the city and LI not so much[/quote]

That post encapsulates the whole schism in the country. Most non-city dwellers see life extremely different then the more rural areas. And there are a ton of real life differences that space and/or the lack of space that skew perceptions across a whole spectrum of political questions. It's as great an issue this country has ever faced - and while not new, it is being exacerbated in our political climate.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1184337]I wonder if NY citizens will thank Trump for forcing a change in their tax code.

:welcome:[/quote]

Why? Had trump and Ryan not fucked the country with this tax bill to rob the middle class this would not be necessary and MTK is right about who will benefit more.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=Giantone;1184344]Why? Had trump and Ryan not fucked the country with this tax bill to rob the middle class this would not be necessary and MTK is right about who will benefit more.[/quote]

I'll put you in the 44% that strongly disapprove.:food-smil

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1184345]I'll put you in the 44% that strongly disapprove.:food-smil[/quote]

Fine and with the other 35 percent that just (not strongly) "disagree" ,that's a good amount.

Re: Tax bill
 

[QUOTE=Giantone;1184365]Fine and with the other 35 percent that just (not strongly) "disagree" ,that's a good amount.[/QUOTE]Just to clarify: It's not an additional 35percent that just disapprove.
It's 53percent total that disapprove, of which 44percent strongly disapprove.

So if you had 100 people you would take 53 of them as the total that disapprove, then 44 of those 53 people strongly disapprove and 9 disapprove.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1184371]Just to clarify: It's not an additional 35percent that just disapprove.
It's 53percent total that disapprove, of which 44percent strongly disapprove.

So if you had 100 people you would take 53 of them as the total that disapprove, then 44 of those 53 people strongly disapprove and 9 disapprove.[/quote]
Yes ,I understand it ,I was being sarcastic before I see that was wasted here.
LOL, so now trump supporters like polls?


[url]https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/19/poll-gop-tax-bill-304831[/url]


it's still a majority how ever you look at it.


[url=http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/19/politics/cnn-poll-tax-bill-opposition-grows/index.html]Public opposition to tax bill grows as vote approaches - CNNPolitics[/url]

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=MTK;1184302]Trump is the one touting one of the major benefits of the bill as more jobs[/quote]

..................and there is this.


[url]https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/28/new-tax-bill-may-force-retailers-to-hire-less-automate-more.html?__source=xfinity|mod&par=xfinity[/url]

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=MTK;1184302]Trump is the one touting one of the major benefits of the bill as more jobs[/quote]

Yeah and he’s as uninformed as ever.

Re: Tax bill
 

[url=http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/02/investing/us-tax-companies-overseas-cash/index.html?iid=hp-stack-dom]U.S. companies will pay billions in tax on offshore cash piles - Jan. 2, 2018[/url]

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=Chico23231;1184845][url=http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/02/investing/us-tax-companies-overseas-cash/index.html?iid=hp-stack-dom]U.S. companies will pay billions in tax on offshore cash piles - Jan. 2, 2018[/url][/quote]

This is EXACTLY what I've been harping on. The corporate tax changes mean the US will collect more from corporations, not less.

And companies will save more money going forward.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=Schneed10;1184857]This is EXACTLY what I've been harping on. The corporate tax changes mean the US will collect more from corporations, not less.

And companies will save more money going forward.[/quote]

Im with you...

Re: Tax bill
 

[url]https://www.reuters.com/article/us-imf-economy-outlook/imf-raises-global-growth-forecast-sees-trump-tax-boost-idUSKBN1FB1TK[/url]

IMF raises global growth forecast, sees Trump tax boost

Re: Tax bill
 

[url]https://www.reuters.com/article/us-arconic-pensions/arconic-to-freeze-pension-plans-for-7900-u-s-employees-idUSKBN1EX1DF[/url]

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=dmek25;1186372][url]https://www.reuters.com/article/us-arconic-pensions/arconic-to-freeze-pension-plans-for-7900-u-s-employees-idUSKBN1EX1DF[/url][/quote]

That sucks. However, what does it have to do with the tax bill? Or did you just think this was the best place for this article? I ain't mad about it either way but I'm left to guess what your point is, since all you did is provide the link.

This decision appears to be in no way related to the new tax bill.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=Schneed10;1186457]That sucks. However, what does it have to do with the tax bill? Or did you just think this was the best place for this article? I ain't mad about it either way but I'm left to guess what your point is, since all you did is provide the link.

This decision appears to be in no way related to the new tax bill.[/quote]

Weirder still it's from Jan 8th, and is only half the story:

[url=http://qctimes.com/business/arconic-to-freeze-u-s-pension-plans/article_c4e146d4-7877-5c0b-95d7-e6d7ea84a076.html]Arconic to freeze U.S. pension plans | Economy | qctimes.com[/url]

They are simply changing from a pension plan to a 401k retirement plan.

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1186469]Weirder still it's from Jan 8th, and is only half the story:

[url=http://qctimes.com/business/arconic-to-freeze-u-s-pension-plans/article_c4e146d4-7877-5c0b-95d7-e6d7ea84a076.html]Arconic to freeze U.S. pension plans | Economy | qctimes.com[/url]

They are simply changing from a pension plan to a 401k retirement plan.[/quote]

Is that better for employees?

Re: Tax bill
 

[quote=Giantone;1186474]Is that better for employees?[/quote]

I don't know. The article I posted said that they had already switched new employees to the 401k which was standard in their industry, and now were switching the remaining employees.