Re: Here Goes Nothing ...
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;287708]I have a question for anyone to answer:

So a lot of people think it is almost comical that the Bush administration has failed to recognize that Iraq is in the midst of a full-blown civil war. I certainly agree that Iraq is in a full-blown civil war (albeit one international actors on both sides). Iraq's civil war consists of ethnic cleansing on highest scale - Shia killing Sunni, Sunni killing Shia, neighborhoods being "cleansed," etc. However, isn't this the same kind of civil war that many wanted us to get involved in in Rwanda, Bosnia, and Kosovo? If so, what accounts for saying that we should get out of Iraq because they are in a civil war and saying that we should get involved in those other places?[/quote]

To my knowledge Rwanda, Bosnia, and Kosova neither had the desire nor the wherewithal to cleanse the planet of infidels, starting with the USA. Obviously, factions in this current action have demonstrated differently. Our own survival as we know it, may in some ways hinge on what the outcome is in Iraq

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[quote=Hog1;287757]To my knowledge Rwanda, Bosnia, and Kosova neither had the desire nor the wherewithal to cleanse the planet of infidels, starting with the USA. Obviously, factions in this current action have demonstrated differently. Our own survival as we know it, may in some ways hinge on what the outcome is in Iraq[/quote]

actually, it probably won't. after the invasion, the various middle-eastern states and factions didn't unify against america, they starting infighting amongst themselves. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to pull out and just hope everything works itself out, cause that's just not likely, but it's probably not entirely fire and brimstone for the world either way.

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I know it's really cynical, but after 9/11 when the Iraq crisis was heating up, I thought we should have told Saddam, "Let's let bygones be bygones and cooperate. You don't like the Islamic radicals and neither do we. Maybe we can do business again." He was a really bad guy, but the Islamic militants are worse.

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[quote=That Guy;287786]actually, it probably won't. after the invasion, the various middle-eastern states and factions didn't unify against america, they starting infighting amongst themselves. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to pull out and just hope everything works itself out, cause that's just not likely, but it's probably not entirely fire and brimstone for the world either way.[/quote]

While I realize they did not unify against the US.
It is generally, if not universally accepted that the countries in question, harbor, if not support those groups that have, and are targeting the US, and it's allies. These groups make no attempt to disguise their intentions as a whole.
From that standpoint, it benefits us to maintain a presence in the region, and thus a force in an outcome, that we can............"live" with. If we adopt a wait and see, non-interference policy, we may well be inviting a host of 9-11 style incidents

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I have the key to peace in the Middle East. The key gentlemen is so simple, yet so beautiful. The key will bring the Jews, Muslims and Christians all together as one. The key will certainly make all of radical Islam realize that, at least some of what they have been taught, is wrong. Yes gentlemen, the key to peace in our lifetime is.......BACON. If we could just get the radical Islamists and Jews to try a wonderful few pieces of thick cut bacon, then they would realize that we all do have something in common. BACON=PEACE. Think about it.

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Bacon..................hmmm. Is there anything it cannot fix???????

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[QUOTE=paulskinsfan;287803]I have the key to peace in the Middle East. The key gentlemen is so simple, yet so beautiful. The key will bring the Jews, Muslims and Christians all together as one. The key will certainly make all of radical Islam realize that, at least some of what they have been taught, is wrong. Yes gentlemen, the key to peace in our lifetime is.......BACON. If we could just get the radical Islamists and Jews to try a wonderful few pieces of thick cut bacon, then they would realize that we all do have something in common. BACON=PEACE. Think about it.[/QUOTE]But isn't the fact that neither Jews nor Muslims actually eat bacon mean that they have at least something in common?

If you had said pie, I think we'd all be in agreement.

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[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;287788]I know it's really cynical, but after 9/11 when the Iraq crisis was heating up, I thought we should have told Saddam, "Let's let bygones be bygones and cooperate. You don't like the Islamic radicals and neither do we. Maybe we can do business again." He was a really bad guy, but the Islamic militants are worse.[/quote]

That would be nice in a perfect world, but can you imagine the diplomatic crises that would ensue from nations like Kuwait and Saudi Arabia?

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Plus, I got the feeling that Bush wasn't the biggest Saddam fan out there.

Although, I do understand what you are saying SGG. It seems like most Iraqis, even those who were borderline fanatical, were so afraid of Saddam's secret police that they would have never dared to meet up to plan out bombing campaigns or kidnappings.

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So I think it would be safe to say that we have emboldened the insurgence mainly because we don't employ tactics used by dictators like him (at least out in the open).

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I've read alot of these post but not all and have seen some good stuff and some stuff that just not true. They did find links between Sadam and Al Queda (spelling) which is fact and I'm not talking about 9/11 just some links between them. Yes they did not agree with each other but did have a common hate for us. This War has not gone as bad as is reported by our media because it only focus is on what has gone wrong. One American life is too many but we have cities were more poeple have died from guns than we have lost in Iraq. Mistakes have been made but that happens in all wars and it tough because it is human lives we are dealing with. We cannot have a time table for withdraw (or not one that is public) that would tell the insurgancy just to sit back and wait until we leave. I'm not sure how we are going to exit but we have to get the Iraq people ready so we can get the heck out. Most od Iraq is living in peace and are happy that we are there but we never see that in our daily news its only the violance. That is a shame that our own news seems to ignor what the troops have accomplished and only focus on whats wrong and the few bad apples we have serving us over there. Lets just hope they are coming home ASAP and may god keep them safe.

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[quote=Hog1;287793]While I realize they did not unify against the US.
It is generally, if not universally accepted that the countries in question, harbor, if not support those groups that have, and are targeting the US, and it's allies. These groups make no attempt to disguise their intentions as a whole.
From that standpoint, it benefits us to maintain a presence in the region, and thus a force in an outcome, that we can............"live" with. If we adopt a wait and see, non-interference policy, we may well be inviting a host of 9-11 style incidents[/quote]

i don't disagree with that. right now we have much more military freedom in afghanistan and iraq and more leverage on pakistan to deal with such groups than we did before.

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not to argue , but... how do you know any of this? have you been there? im not sure why some people think that all media is 100% against president bush. now, if you told some of them have an agenda because they are tired of being lied to, and everything being hush hush, i would agree. there has to be a timetable( i agree, not public) because if you cant see the finish line, you never really started
this is a response to firstdowns post

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well, in this area there's lot of military families, mine being one, and you hear from first and second hand sources (military that have been there) that it's not as bad as the media says, and the iraqi blogs (by iraqis living in iraq) seem to share the same comments.

not that most of iraq is peaceful, just that it's not as bad as reported.

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I don't think Americans can take the morale high ground about not getting kicks watching people die. What country televises high speed car chases which generally end in death or at least lots of destruction, who gets people gathered around a chair to watch someone have thousands of volts sent through their body? Americans and Christians (if we want to make this a religious thing) have long histories of watching death and torture for fun, closure, whatever.

As far as the kids spitting and such on bodies. Granted, Saddam killed a lot of people, but we are seen as the aggressor, and I can understand it. These kids, many growing up seeing much of the violence that we've seemingly brought to the nation that wasn't in every day view before. They see death every day, their idea of a good day is not having to bury a family member who dies from useless violence, a random car bomb aimed at US soldiers. While I'm not standing up for Saddam, he was an awful human being. From what I understand, his killings weren't exactly random. Don't piss Saddam off, stay alive. I'm not sure on that, just how it was explained to me and from the bit of reading I've done on it.

As far as papers not reporting positive news. They do. But saying everything is fine and well isn't a headline. Would you buy a paper that said "EVERYTHING'S OKAY!" Also, negative events come in one big splash. BOOM, something bad happened. Everything being okay is a gradual process. It's not that papers get in their meetings and say "Okay, we need to find a way to make this look bad!"