Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

Joeredskin,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts about the Constitution and gun ownership. Most people have no clue what the Second Amendment means.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

I would like to add a few more thoughts to the subject:

I think people should be able to purchase a gun and the government has a right to create a set of criterion for who can or can't own a gun. It already does it for every product out there, whether it's the food we consume or the medication we take.

People always talk about protecting yourself and all of that but the truth is if everyone was packing this country would be totally fucked up. I mean, you couldn't turn around and tell the jerk sitting next to you he's being a jerk without fear of getting shot. Talk about [B]emasculating[/B] the entire population.

I think the issue of Nuclear proliferation is parallel to gun control. If not having a gun is a disadvantage as some in here have suggested then perhaps those countries that don't have nuclear weapons are in grave disadvantage. Perhaps they are justified in trying to obtain nuclear weapons.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=saden1;328713]I think the issue of Nuclear proliferation is parallel to gun control. If not having a gun is a disadvantage as some in here have suggested then perhaps those countries that don't have nuclear weapons are in grave disadvantage. Perhaps they are justified in trying to obtain nuclear weapons.[/QUOTE]

Good analogy. So basically the "pro gun" crowd just believes in the mutually assured destruction theory.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

I usually don't assume the person next to me has a gun. Hopefully with everyone having a gun, i can have out of control anxiety, then shoot someone before they can shoot me.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

Ted is cool

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[YT]M8fXMMCuLew[/YT]

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=saden1;328325]Unfeathered access to guns is definitely a bad Idea. [B]What kind of society would we be if everyone was packing? I mean, how free would people be?[/B]

Anywho, people should be allowed to own guns and the laws in the books need to be enforced.

p.s. Early in the video he said that brave families left Europe to be free of tyrants and [I]slave drivers[/I]. I didn't know the pilgrims were salves.[/quote]



We'd be a safer society. The criminals would be scared to mess with anyone because they'd know they'd get killed in the process of a crime...if not by one person...another one watching. They'd probably all turn to cyber crimes and fraud, but no one gets killed that way,

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;328702]First, the Constitution does not guarrantee the unfettered, universal and individual right to gun ownership:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The federal circuit courts are in a general agreement that this is a collective right, not an individual right. Thus, regulation of gun ownership is constitutionally based and restrictions on ownership are generally well founded in constitution.

Are you part of a "well-regulated militia"? If so, fine. If not, then you don't clear cut constitutional right to gun ownership. Even if you are, it appears from the plain language of the 2nd A that heavy regualtion is the proper constitutional course.[/quote]



It's not a trap or anything Joe, but I am curious as to what part of the second amendment, or Constitution speaks the the "heavy regulation of gun ownership". I gave it a once over and did not notice that.
The second A also provides for the "the right of the people to keep and bear arms". That is in addition to " a well regulated militia, and not subject to a collective interpretation of any kind, that I can see.

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed"

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Hog1;329150]It's not a trap or anything Joe, but I am curious as to what part of the second amendment, or Constitution speaks the the "heavy regulation of gun ownership". I gave it a once over and did not notice that. [/QUOTE]

The expectation of heavy regulation is my opinion based on the language of the amendment and a [I]very[/I] brief review of some of the cases interpreting it. Given that the language speaks of individual gun ownership being necessary [I]due to[/I]the collective need of a "well-regulated" militia, it is my opinion that a gun owner should expect there to be significant governmental regulations in place to ensure and protect the [I]public's[/I] interest in a well regulated militia.

[QUOTE=Hog1;329150]The second A also provides for the "the right of the people to keep and bear arms". That is in addition to "a well regulated militia, and not subject to a collective interpretation of any kind, that I can see.[/QUOTE]

As I noted above, the individual right springs from and is given its [I]reason d'etre[/I] from the collective need. There is substantial caselaw on this and the debate as to personal right v. collective right appears to go to the core of most 2A debates. As I understand it (again, based on a very cursory review of the law), the federal courts have generally held that the right to keep and bear arms is a "collective" right rather than an "individual" right.

Both from the language of the amendment and from the caselaw, I think it is pretty clear that, no matter what else is true about it, the "right to keep and bear arms", does not and was never intended to grant individuals unfettered and unlimited access to and/or owership of guns.

Personally, while I have no problem with lawful gun ownership, I am very comfortable with the government reasonably regulating their use and availability. As with all things subject to regulation, it is the "reasonableness" of it that comes into play.

For the record, I live in downtown Baltimore and, while my neighborhood is fine, some of the surrounding neighborhoods are kinda seedy. I have seen guns fired in public and often heard gunfire throughout the city. Quite frankly, the bad guys are walking around with semi and automatic weapons. Unless I go around with an unconcealed .50 cal., they pretty much got me outgunned. If I get into a situation where they intend me harm, owning or carrying a gun would not stop them from doing so. Further, it might only ratchet up their need to show that they're the big man and cause them to get even bigger guns.

To me, it is appropriate to both ensure that government does not have a monopoly on the use and ownership of guns [I]and[/I] to regulate individual ownership of guns to ensure that the government can properly carry out its duty to protect its citizenry.

Enforce the laws on the books. Send anyone using a handgun in the course of a crime to jail for a significant amount of un-paroleable minimum time (to me, "use" includes brandishing the weapon). Send anyone [I]firing[/I] an automatic weapon in an unauthorized manner to jail (generally, i got no problem with the ownership of automatic weaponry - it's the use of it that I object to). Send anyone who uses an automatic weapon in the course of a crime to jail w/o parole for a long time.

While it's true that people kill people - guns sure make it a lot easier. For that reason, their use and ownership should be "well regulated" (even if you're not in the militia :) )

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;329180]The expectation of heavy regulation is my opinion based on the language of the amendment and a [I]very[/I] brief review of some of the cases interpreting it. Given that the language speaks of individual gun ownership being necessary [I]due to[/I]the collective need of a "well-regulated" militia, it is my opinion that a gun owner should expect there to be significant governmental regulations in place to ensure and protect the [I]public's[/I] interest in a well regulated militia.



As I noted above, the individual right springs from and is given its [I]reason d'etre[/I] from the collective need. There is substantial caselaw on this and the debate as to personal right v. collective right appears to go to the core of most 2A debates. As I understand it (again, based on a very cursory review of the law), the federal courts have generally held that the right to keep and bear arms is a "collective" right rather than an "individual" right.

Both from the language of the amendment and from the caselaw, I think it is pretty clear that, no matter what else is true about it, the "right to keep and bear arms", does not and was never intended to grant individuals unfettered and unlimited access to and/or owership of guns.

Personally, while I have no problem with lawful gun ownership, I am very comfortable with the government reasonably regulating their use and availability. As with all things subject to regulation, it is the "reasonableness" of it that comes into play.

For the record, I live in downtown Baltimore and, while my neighborhood is fine, some of the surrounding neighborhoods are kinda seedy. I have seen guns fired in public and often heard gunfire throughout the city. Quite frankly, the bad guys are walking around with semi and automatic weapons. Unless I go around with an unconcealed .50 cal., they pretty much got me outgunned. If I get into a situation where they intend me harm, owning or carrying a gun would not stop them from doing so. Further, it might only ratchet up their need to show that they're the big man and cause them to get even bigger guns.

To me, it is appropriate to both ensure that government does not have a monopoly on the use and ownership of guns [I]and[/I] to regulate individual ownership of guns to ensure that the government can properly carry out its duty to protect its citizenry.

Enforce the laws on the books. Send anyone using a handgun in the course of a crime to jail for a significant amount of un-paroleable minimum time (to me, "use" includes brandishing the weapon). Send anyone [I]firing[/I] an automatic weapon in an unauthorized manner to jail (generally, i got no problem with the ownership of automatic weaponry - it's the use of it that I object to). Send anyone who uses an automatic weapon in the course of a crime to jail w/o parole for a long time.

While it's true that people kill people - guns sure make it a lot easier. For that reason, their use and ownership should be "well regulated" (even if you're not in the militia :) )[/quote]

Nice Post Joe,
naturally the interpretation of the 2nd A. has been the debate of sport for lo' these many years.
For the record, I completely agree with the regulation, and control of who gets a weapon in this country. As you alluded to, we have the laws on the books, and they need to be enforced. The justice system is letting us down.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin;329180]
For the record, I live in downtown Baltimore and, while my neighborhood is fine, some of the surrounding neighborhoods are kinda seedy. I have seen guns fired in public and often heard gunfire throughout the city. Quite frankly, the bad guys are walking around with semi and automatic weapons. Unless I go around with an unconcealed .50 cal., they pretty much got me outgunned. If I get into a situation where they intend me harm, owning or carrying a gun would not stop them from doing so. Further, it might only ratchet up their need to show that they're the big man and cause them to get even bigger guns.[/QUOTE]

I just needed to point this out...no matter if there were strict gun laws, or loose ones, those situations will still exist. The evil people of the world will still ignore them and find way to own those guns.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Hog1;329214]Nice Post Joe,
naturally the interpretation of the 2nd A. has been the debate of sport for lo' these many years.
For the record, I completely agree with the regulation, and control of who gets a weapon in this country. As you alluded to, we have the laws on the books, and they need to be enforced. The justice system is letting us down.[/QUOTE]

While I agree, it is a good post...don't you agree that from 1776 to the when the first person started wanting gun control (I'll say 1929), that the country would have stopped all those people from owning guns? Are we so arrogant as to think that our society should change was has been generally accepted for over a century, and what this country was founded on? Why is it we seem to think we're better than what the ideals of the country stated?

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=jsarno;329231]While I agree, it is a good post...don't you agree that from 1776 to the when the first person started wanting gun control (I'll say 1929), that the country would have stopped all those people from owning guns? Are we so arrogant as to think that our society should change was has been generally accepted for over a century, and what this country was founded on? Why is it we seem to think we're better than what the ideals of the country stated?[/quote]

I do not disagree with you Jsarno.
I also believe in the 2nd A as it is stated. I believe it clearly guarantee's the right to individual gun ownership in this country in plain language.
I do think additional......common sense must apply when determining that some people may not qualify for that privilege. Ex. violent criminals, etc. And, no I do not believe that we know better today, than the signers of the Constitution, what is right for this country.
Are you saying sometjhing different?

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;329225]I just needed to point this out...no matter if there were strict gun laws, or loose ones, those situations will still exist. The evil people of the world will still ignore them and find way to own those guns.[/QUOTE]

Yes. Absolutely true.

For that very same reason, however, gun ownership does not guarrantee safety nor does it [I]neccessarily[/I] enhance one's personal safety.

Given that the existence or non-existence of strict gun laws (or enforcement of the same) has no effect on whether or not evil people will use guns, the ownership of guns will not deter those same evil people intent on inflicting harm. I suggest to you, that those intent on doing harm with guns or those who could care less if they cause harm with guns will do so whether or not those around them are armed.

While owning a gun for home defense [I]may[/I] protect you from injury in certain limited circumstances (A break in occurs, it does so in such a manner as to allow you sufficient warning to retrieve your weapon, avoid discovery and safely confront the burglar (i.e. make sure you don't harm those whom you would protect)). At the same time, I would argue that the inherent danger posed to residents and visitors by a readily available weapon with readily available ammunition is not insignificant.

As others have pointed out, however, it seems unlikely to me that someone intent on doing you harm by waylaying you will be deterred by thought you might be carrying a gun. It seems to me that, if someone is intentionally carrying a gun with intent to cause harm [I]despite[/I] the possibility of governmental reprecussion, those people are unlikely to be deterred by the possibility of you being armed. Rather, they will be more careful in their actions and, essentially, kill you before you have a chance to retaliate.

Further, for those who carry guns with a complete lack of concern as to whether or not they do good or evil with the weapons, the fact that you are armed will, again, be of no concern to them. In these cases you may see the danger approaching and prevent it prior to being shot by using a weapon (in this scenario, it doesn't even matter whether or not the weapon is concealed because the individual creating the danger is unconcerned as to [I]anyone's[/I] safety including his). Given the unpredictability of these types, the greater danger is to those unaware that this person is present. You will simply be an innocent bystander dead without even knowing what hit you.

As I said, I got no problem with guns. They are simply tools -inherently dangerous, powerful, efficient with limited purpose - but tools nonetheless.

I do believe, however, that those who argue they are necessary for increased safety are assuming the bad guys think and act like they themselves would. I suggest to you that this is not true. People who are willing to use deadly force to impose their will upon others - either out of a specific intent to do whatever it takes to do so or out of a complete disregard for the destruction they may cause - are not likely to concern themselves with how easy or difficult a target, in the first case, their prey or, in the second, anyone around them actually is.

I believe that, generally, carrying a gun (and I have just so we're clear), rather than heighten one's personal security, actually dulls it by creating a false sense of security and, thus, lessening the truly important factors of personal safety - self and situation awareness.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;329254]Yes. Absolutely true.

For that very same reason, however, gun ownership does not guarrantee safety nor does it [I]neccessarily[/I] enhance one's personal safety.

Given that the existence or non-existence of strict gun laws (or enforcement of the same) has no effect on whether or not evil people will use guns, the ownership of guns will not deter those same evil people intent on inflicting harm. I suggest to you, that those intent on doing harm with guns or those who could care less if they cause harm with guns will do so whether or not those around them are armed.

While owning a gun for home defense [I]may[/I] protect you from injury in certain limited circumstances (A break in occurs, it does so in such a manner as to allow you sufficient warning to retrieve your weapon, avoid discovery and safely confront the burglar (i.e. make sure you don't harm those whom you would protect)). At the same time, I would argue that the inherent danger posed to residents and visitors by a readily available weapon with readily available ammunition is not insignificant.

As others have pointed out, however, it seems unlikely to me that someone intent on doing you harm by waylaying you will be deterred by thought you might be carrying a gun. It seems to me that, if someone is intentionally carrying a gun with intent to cause harm [I]despite[/I] the possibility of governmental reprecussion, those people are unlikely to be deterred by the possibility of you being armed. Rather, they will be more careful in their actions and, essentially, kill you before you have a chance to retaliate.

Further, for those who carry guns with a complete lack of concern as to whether or not they do good or evil with the weapons, the fact that you are armed will, again, be of no concern to them. In these cases you may see the danger approaching and prevent it prior to being shot by using a weapon (in this scenario, it doesn't even matter whether or not the weapon is concealed because the individual creating the danger is unconcerned as to [I]anyone's[/I] safety including his). Given the unpredictability of these types, the greater danger is to those unaware that this person is present. You will simply be an innocent bystander dead without even knowing what hit you.

As I said, I got no problem with guns. They are simply tools -inherently dangerous, powerful, efficient with limited purpose - but tools nonetheless.

I do believe, however, that those who argue they are necessary for increased safety are assuming the bad guys think and act like they themselves would. I suggest to you that this is not true. People who are willing to use deadly force to impose their will upon others - either out of a specific intent to do whatever it takes to do so or out of a complete disregard for the destruction they may cause - are not likely to concern themselves with how easy or difficult a target, in the first case, their prey or, in the second, anyone around them actually is.

I believe that, generally, carrying a gun (and I have just so we're clear), rather than heighten one's personal security, actually dulls it by creating a false sense of security and, thus, lessening the truly important factors of personal safety - self and situation awareness.[/quote]

If I knew how to speak/write intelligently this is what I would say. Nicely done, Joe!