Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

TAFKAS


[QUOTE]You didn't start the "Brunell vs. Bledsoe" thread but you can't deny you had an instrumental role in its demise.[/QUOTE]

No denial; but to be candid, the emotional reaction I got surprised me when I simply remarked that IMO conventional football stats are almost useless. I was made to feel like I'd just informed a kindergarten class that there was no Santa.

[QUOTE] Again, I was just messing with you. But I can't be the only one who sees that threads you're involved in tend to take odd turns.[/QUOTE]

Sure that's fine. I love controversy, but these debates would be a whole lot more fun if we just aggravated each other without making it personal.

Jibes at your opponent is good sport if it can be done within the context of the argument and not made as ridicule.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]Most NFL coaches draft a rookie QB and start him without adequate preparation and throw him to the wolves. The list of examples is endless. Are you sure you want to use NFL coaches, taken as a whole, as support for your point?[/quote]

Um yes, I do. Because they know a lot more about football than I do.

Or, as you seem to be insinuating, do you think you know more than they do?

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[QUOTE=Huddle]Yo, Matty

Here's a stat for you.

From Game One through SF, we averaged 267.5 yards per game. After SF, through the Tampa Bay playoff game, we averaged 143.5 yards per game. That's a 46% drop-off.

The Seattle number wasn't in the NFL.com data base for some reason.

Since Brunell went out early in the SF game and against the Giants for two or three quarters (combined games), I made no adjustment.

I didn't include the first game in Tampa Bay (226 yeards) because I excluded that game when I levelled my change against the passing game.

I make 45% a tank job, so I got in under the wire. [enter smilie face][/QUOTE]
If you add in the Seattle game, the number drops to 38%. So you don't have to worry about a tank job anymore.

Also, if you drop Brunell's best and worst outings (both wins, btw), the number drops to 33%.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Schneed10]Um yes, I do. Because they know a lot more about football than I do.

Or, as you seem to be insinuating, do you think you know more than they do?[/quote]

About football in general, no. But, on this point specifically, yes.

Repeating the same mistake over and over is not a sign of intelligence.

Spurrier tossed Ramsey into the arena unprepared. Gibbs is taking a more cautious route with Campbell.

I don't know as much football as Spurrier, but I'm not shy in condemning his approach with Ramsey as dumb.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]About football in general, no. But, on this point specifically, yes.

[B] Repeating the same mistake over and over is not a sign of intelligence.[/B]

Spurrier tossed Ramsey into the arena unprepared. Gibbs is taking a more cautious route with Campbell.

I don't know as much football as Spurrier, but I'm not shy in condemning his approach with Ramsey as dumb.[/quote]

talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
[IMG]http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/4145/pwned9pr.jpg[/IMG]

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=cpayne5]If you add in the Seattle game, the number drops to 38%. So you don't have to worry about a tank job anymore.

Also, if you drop Brunell's best and worst outings (both wins, btw), the number drops to 25%.[/quote]

What is the Seattle passing yardage stat?

Which high and low games do you want to throw out and what are the numbers?

Oh, and by the way...why would you throw out the high and low numbers unelss you intentionally wanted the result it gave?

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]I don't know as much football as Spurrier, but I'm not shy in condemning his approach with Ramsey as dumb.[/quote]

Holy Crap! :eek: ......actually something we agree on. I didn't think it was possible.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

Boy you're on a roll now PWNED...

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

I love seeing someone pwn themself

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=PWNED]talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
[URL="http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/4145/pwned9pr.jpg"]http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/4145/pwned9pr.jpg[/URL][/quote]

As long as we're taking cheap shots, rumor has it that you've lied about your age in this forum.

Is it true you're really ten?

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[QUOTE=Huddle]What is the Seattle passing yardage stat?

Which high and low games do you want to throw out and what are the numbers?[/QUOTE]
I threw out the games w/ the highest and lowest QB rating by Brunell; SF & Tampa Playoff game.

The stats for the Seattle game were att: 37 comp:22 yds:242 int:0 td:1

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=PSUSkinsFan21]Holy Crap! :eek: ......actually something we agree on. I didn't think it was possible.[/quote]

I'm having a bad day. First an agreement with Schneed, now you. My blood sugar must be high.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]I'm having a bad day. First an agreement with Schneed, now you. My blood sugar must be high.[/quote]

Don't worry, I'm sure things will get back to normal soon.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]As long as we're taking cheap shots, rumor has it that you've lied about your age in this forum.

Is it true you're really ten?[/quote]

fact has it you're a tool. :)

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

but seriously though, the rumors are incorrect, are these the same rumors that you keep posting as fact about brunell?

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]As long as we're taking cheap shots, rumor has it that you've lied about your age in this forum.

Is it true you're really ten?[/quote]

i bet you im the smartest 14 year old youve ever met.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

cpayne5

[QUOTE]I threw out the games w/ the highest and lowest QB rating by Brunell; SF & Tampa Playoff game[/QUOTE].

In my stat debate with Matty, you threw out one of my highest numbers and Matty's lowest. Is he paying you?

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]About football in general, no. But, on this point specifically, yes.[/quote]

That's extremely arrogant. I'm sure even you see the arrogance in that one.

Lots of young QBs get thrown to the wolves, you're right. Most sink, but some swim. Roethisberger. Peyton Manning. I can name others. Some take a while to grasp things, like Vinny Testaverde did. But the point isn't that you ruin a young QB by throwing him to the wolves, the point is that there isn't a choice. In the NFL, you're better off committing to one QB or another. Waffling back and forth, or platooning QBs, is the worst thing you can do. I've said it over and over, QBs need to have rhythm and be in synch with the offense. No QB is ever going to win a Super Bowl if he doesn't get a starter's share of the practice reps in camp and during game weeks.

Platooning Campbell and Brunell might bring Campbell along slowly and have him learn the offense as he goes. But in the here and now, you'd have 2 QBs platooning, neither of whom know the offense well enough to execute at a championship level. Your idea might be appropriate (and I stress might) if you were a team like the 49ers, coming off a dismal season and looking to rebuild gradually. Then you could afford to be patient with Alex Smith, bringing him along slowly. But the Redskins are coming off a 10-6 season, and are ready to make a run at going deeper into the playoffs. The last thing they'd want to do is compromise the learning curve of ALL of their QBs.

I mean, at what point do you stop building for the future and actually take what you have and make a run for it? That's what the NFL is all about. If you've got a good team, go for it. You can't do anything with a QB platoon. I think if you suggested your idea to Joe Gibbs, a Hall of Fame coach who I'm SURE knows more than you about QB management, he'd laugh you out of the room.

Just to add, I think the Skins should just stick with Brunell as the starter. They should give Campbell plenty of attention and PT in the preseason, but stick with Brunell for the regular season.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=PWNED]i bet you im the smartest 14 year old youve ever met.[/quote]

Really? It's not evident in your posts (giggle).

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]Really? It's not evident in your posts (giggle).[/quote]

Considering how smart you are, I wonder if you're smart enough to figure out his real age.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

I'd just like to state the right now [b]Jason Campbell is an unknown[/b]. You can't treat him like a superstar or a bust or anything in between. I think it'd be best to watch him play in preseason and see if he's actually any good before proclaiming the great Campbell transition period. This is all squabbling over hypotheticals based off rampant (and varying) assumptions of a complete unknown.

He could be a bust or the best QB in the league, until you're sure of what you've got though, you should go with what you know (Brunell). If Campbell knocks him off with a great preseason performance, I'm all for immediate change. If not, its just a matter of seeing where he's at and how comfortable the coaches would be in inserting him when brunell is either injured or playing poorly.


now to the pointless rebutals:

[quote=huddle]
The question we're discussing is whether Gibbs relied heavily on the running game at the end of last year because he wanted to as a matter of philosophy or whether he was forced to by circumstance.

He has always run the football more when he has a lead. There's no change there[/quote]

can't it be both? we won 5 straight games towards the end, so obviously we had the lead and started running more. brunell wore out at the end, but its not like we averaged 2.0ypc and decided to run anyways. It was working, so we continued to rely on it. I don't see why you'd abandon what's working without a good reason.



[quote=Huddle]Yo, Matty

Here's a stat for you.

From Game One through SF, we averaged 267.5 yards per game. After SF, through the Tampa Bay playoff game, we averaged 143.5 yards per game. That's a 46% drop-off.[/quote]

Coincidently, that drop off is also attributeable to the loss of patten. If you can blame it all on brunell, I'll go ahead and blame it all on losing patten. once he left moss losst 30yards/game, patten was contributing 24yards/game, and RBs lost 12yards/game receiving (TEs and other WRs made up the rest of the nearly 86 yards/game net loss). once patten went down, non moss WRs went from 3.5 catches a game to less than 1 catch a game.

Its convenient to blame brunell, but the loss of patten and the improvements in the running game also played a big part. (we run with the lead, and we won 5 straight games, so we had to be leading and thus running more for at least parts of those games).

I don't see how this year with better WR depth, better WR talent, and better scheme that we'll somehow be worse off.

[quote=somebody]
And I think if it actually wasn't going to inhibit learning as you suggest, then you'd actually see NFL coaches bring QBs along this way. But I never see that happen. It's just not a smart way of doing things.
[quote=huddle]
Most NFL coaches draft a rookie QB and start him without adequate preparation and throw him to the wolves. The list of examples is endless. Are you sure you want to use NFL coaches, taken as a whole, as support for your point?[/quote][/quote]

the very fact that you think people should take your word (without ANY proof) over that of a collective group of experts is either hubris or stupidity. Either way, statements like this are why your credibility is dead.


[quote=Huddle]
No denial; but to be candid, the emotional reaction I got surprised me when I simply remarked that IMO conventional football stats are almost useless. I was made to feel like I'd just informed a kindergarten class that there was no Santa.[/quote]

and yet in that same thread you were proven wrong on every point, and two days later you post an article about how great (DVOA) stats are (which, by the way, are still stats). So its nice that you think you're smarter than everyone else, except [b]it's not true[/b]. And you ended up disagreeing with the very post that you thought was so well reasoned :P



[Quote=Schneed10]
Um yes, I do. Because [NFL coaches] know a lot more about football than I do.

Or, as you seem to be insinuating, do you think you know more than they do?
[quote=Huddle]
About football in general, no. But, on this point specifically, yes.

[B]Repeating the same mistake over and over is not a sign of intelligence.[/B]
[/quote][/quote]

do i even need to comment? with no experience as an NFL coach, the fact that you'd think you know more than them about any point of their job (as a collective whole) is insane.

and more irony from the unwitting master :P.



here's something that might be relevent:
[b][url=http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=406]Unskilled and Unaware of It[/url][/b]

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

Schneed10

[quote] But the point isn't that you ruin a young QB by throwing him to the wolves, the point is that there isn't a choice. In the NFL, you're better off committing to one QB or another. Waffling back and forth, or platooning QBs, is the worst thing you can do. I've said it over and over, QBs need to have rhythm and be in synch with the offense. No QB is ever going to win a Super Bowl if he doesn't get a starter's share of the practice reps in camp and during game weeks. [/quote]
It's very rare that the young QBs who are thrown into the arena unprepared are with teams that have any real chance to win a super bowl. No, I really can't see that it's arrogant of me to say that the NFL coaches who do it are making a mistake.

[quote] Platooning Campbell and Brunell might bring Campbell along slowly and have him learn the offense as he goes. But in the here and now, you'd have 2 QBs platooning, neither of whom know the offense well enough to execute at a championship level. Your idea might be appropriate (and I stress might) if you were a team like the 49ers, coming off a dismal season and looking to rebuild gradually. Then you could afford to be patient with Alex Smith, bringing him along slowly. But the Redskins are coming off a 10-6 season, and are ready to make a run at going deeper into the playoffs. The last thing they'd want to do is compromise the learning curve of ALL of their QBs.[/quote]
Learning the offense will be done in training camp, on the field and in the classroom. They can both participate equally. There's no need for either to be unprepared in learning the offense.

Playing time, when they are firing real bullets, is what Jason needs to prepare for the NFL.


[quote]I think if you suggested your idea to Joe Gibbs, a Hall of Fame coach who I'm SURE knows more than you about QB management, he'd laugh you out of the room.[/quote]
I seriously doubt that Joe would laugh. In fact, as thorough as he and his staff are, I'd be surprised if the idea hasn't at least been discussed.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[QUOTE=Huddle]cpayne5

.

In my stat debate with Matty, you threw out one of my highest numbers and Matty's lowest. Is he paying you?[/QUOTE]
Why would he pay me for throwing out the extreme on both sides?

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

as for Brunell wearing out:

[quote]Gibbs also said he will try to limit Brunell's practice-field snaps, both during training camp and the season, in an effort to keep the veteran healthy. Gibbs acknowledged that Brunell's leg injuries during his two-year Redskins tenure make for an ongoing concern, and he's spoken to the quarterback about adding a flexibility program to his training regimen.

"He can probably take a little less work during the week, too. . . . Some guys want all the reps, but I think Mark is real comfortable," Gibbs said.[/quote]

seems campbell is playing most of the preseason and we'll get a good gauge on him. Meanwhile brunell will be kept fresh with less preseason and weekly work.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Huddle]It's very rare that the young QBs who are thrown into the arena unprepared are with teams that have any real chance to win a super bowl. No, I really can't see that it's arrogant of me to say that the NFL coaches who do it are making a mistake.[/quote]

Now you're backtracking. In a previous post you said that you think you know more than these coaches on this point. That's what I'm calling arrogant, not that you think it's a mistake.

[quote=Huddle]Learning the offense will be done in training camp, on the field and in the classroom. They can both participate equally. There's no need for either to be unprepared in learning the offense.[/quote]

Totally and utterly wrong. You can do all the classroom learning you want, there's nothing like doing it in practice or in games. If you platoon them, they each only get half the time working with the starting receivers as the average NFL starting QB. Being up to speed takes more than understanding the Xs and Os of the offense, it takes familiarity, timing, rhythm, and an ability to react without having to think.

[quote=Huddle]I seriously doubt that Joe would laugh. In fact, as thorough as he and his staff are, I'd be surprised if the idea hasn't at least been discussed.[/quote]

Maybe he wouldn't laugh, because he's too polite. But I guarantee you that he has absolutely no intention of letting Brunell and Campbell share playing time during the regular season.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

LOVED the link ThatGuy. Favorite part:
"But it seems that much of the time, confidence is the over-inflated result of some degree of ignorance. As is the case with many human flaws, perhaps the best remedy is to never stop learning, to seek out and absorb constructive criticism, and to always be prepared to admit that you may be wrong about something."

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=PSUSkinsFan21]People who had Edgerrin James on their fantasy teams did. :silly: ;)[/quote]
:lol:

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Schneed10]Maybe he wouldn't laugh, because he's too polite. But I guarantee you that he has absolutely no intention of letting Brunell and Campbell share playing time during the regular season.[/quote]

May I suggest a compromise? I agree he's too nice of a guy to laugh at Huddle if he pitched the platoon idea, but given that Gibbs has just announced that he intends on letting Campbell compete for the #2 backup position, can we all just agree that he would laugh his balls off [U]after[/U] Huddle left the room?

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

Thank you, thank you amorentz......I'll be here all week.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Schneed10]Now you're backtracking. In a previous post you said that you think you know more than these coaches on this point. That's what I'm calling arrogant, not that you think it's a mistake.



Totally and utterly wrong. You can do all the classroom learning you want, there's nothing like doing it in practice or in games. If you platoon them, they each only get half the time working with the starting receivers as the average NFL starting QB. Being up to speed takes more than understanding the Xs and Os of the offense, it takes familiarity, timing, rhythm, and an ability to react without having to think.



Maybe he wouldn't laugh, because he's too polite. But I guarantee you that he has absolutely no intention of letting Brunell and Campbell share playing time during the regular season.[/quote]

I'd have to agree with scheed, you learn faster on the field, and experience is always better than book learning when its available, and that's in everything (theatre, surgery, electrical work), not just football.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

That Guy

[QUOTE]I'd just like to state the right now [B]Jason Campbell is an unknown[/B]. This is all squabbling over hypotheticals based off rampant (and varying) assumptions of a complete unknown.[/QUOTE]

He isn't an unknown to Joe Gibbs. Our discussion has been speculation based on Joe's glowing report on Campbell. If you don't want to participate, that's okay.

[QUOTE] can't it be both? we won 5 straight games towards the end, so obviously we had the lead and started running more. brunell wore out at the end, but its not like we averaged 2.0ypc and decided to run anyways. It was working, so we continued to rely on it. I don't see why you'd abandon what's working without a good reason.[/QUOTE]

We ran early in the game. At times, we continued to run even when it wasn't working. The committment to the run was our staffs' adjustment after the Oakland loss and after even the Rams and Cards defenses held down our passing game.

[QUOTE] Coincidently, that drop off is also attributeable to the loss of patten. If you can blame it all on brunell, I'll go ahead and blame it all on losing patten.[/QUOTE]

You're up to your old tricks: putting words in my mouth. Even after I underlined the words in my post saying that there were several causes for the drop-off, you come up with this strawman.

[QUOTE] I don't see how this year with better WR depth, better WR talent, and better scheme that we'll somehow be worse off.
[/QUOTE]

Another strawman? Who said we'd be worse off?

[QUOTE] the very fact that you think people should take your word (without ANY proof) over that of a collective group of experts is either hubris or stupidity. Either way, statements like this are why your credibility is dead.[/QUOTE]

And now the personal attack?

[QUOTE] and yet in that same thread you were proven wrong on every point, and two days later you post an article about how great (DVOA) stats are (which, by the way, are still stats). So its nice that you think you're smarter than everyone else, except [B]it's not true[/B]. And you ended up disagreeing with the very post that you thought was so well reasoned :P[/QUOTE]

Horse puckey.

[QUOTE]do i even need to comment? with no experience as an NFL coach, the fact that you'd think you know more than them about any point of their job (as a collective whole) is insane.

and more irony from the unwitting master :P.
[/QUOTE]

Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm getting the distinct feeling that you don't appreciate my posts.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[QUOTE=PSUSkinsFan21]Thank you, thank you amorentz......I'll be here all week.[/QUOTE]

Don't forget to try the veal.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

MMMMmmmmmm........veal.......[imput Homer Simpson drooling sound here]

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Schneed10]

[QUOTE]Now you're backtracking. In a previous post you said that you think you know more than these coaches on this point. That's what I'm calling arrogant, not that you think it's a mistake.[/QUOTE]

Huh? If I think that coaches who throw young QBs to the wolves are making a mistake, doesn't that also imply that I think I know better than they do on this point? You're making a distinction that escapes me.

[QUOTE] Totally and utterly wrong. [/QUOTE]

Oooo! That's bad! That's worse than being just wrong.

[QUOTE]You can do all the classroom learning you want, there's nothing like doing it in practice or in games. If you platoon them, they each only get half the time working with the starting receivers as the average NFL starting QB. Being up to speed takes more than understanding the Xs and Os of the offense, it takes familiarity, timing, rhythm, and an ability to react without having to think.[/QUOTE]

When you were talking about "learning the offense," I read that to mean ...learning the playbook and the scheme. I didn't think you were talking about execution as well, so we were talking about different things.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

Coach Joe Gibbs: "Okay, Brunell really slowed down at the end of last year. We need a plan to stay competitive. Any ideas?

Assistant A: "We could try some advanced conditioning and flexibility techniques and maximize his recovery time."

Coach Joe Gibbs: "Good idea! Anybody else?"

Assistant B: "What about employing mass protection for him after the second half of the season?"

Coach Gibbs: "Well, that's a thought but we may not be in a position to do that. Who else?"

Assistant C: "Hey, let's do a gradual platoon thing. We could give JC a couple of snap counts in the early season and progressively increase them as the season went on eventually splitting the time equally between MB and JC.

Joe Gibbs: .....[blink].....[blink, blink].....

Assistant C: "Well, what do you think?"

Joe Gibbs: .....[blink].....[blink,blink]....

Assistant C: {fidgeting nervously} "...uhh, it's been done before....loo-look at Cleveland this past year....t-th-they d-did a good job with that."

Joe Gibbs: .....[blink].....[blink,blink]....

Assistant C:"Uh, just kidding?"

Joe Gibbs: "Okay, I think we'll go with plan A and get Mark's conditioning program upgraded. Thanks guys for your input!"

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

Duplicate post.

[I]I'm getting weary from all this high level debate.[/I]

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=Schneed10]Considering how smart you are, I wonder if you're smart enough to figure out his real age.[/quote]

Just a rough guess? About the same age as Malcolm.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[QUOTE=Huddle]Just a rough guess? About the same age as Malcolm.[/QUOTE]

Ahh...but what is Malcolm's real age? That is the ultimate question.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=724Skinsfan]Coach Joe Gibbs: "Okay, Brunell really slowed down at the end of last year. We need a plan to stay competitive. Any ideas?

Assistant A: "We could try some advanced conditioning and flexibility techniques and maximize his recovery time."

Coach Joe Gibbs: "Good idea! Anybody else?"

Assistant B: "What about employing mass protection for him after the second half of the season?"

Coach Gibbs: "Well, that's a thought but we may not be in a position to do that. Who else?"

Assistant C: "Hey, let's do a gradual platoon thing. We could give JC a couple of snap counts in the early season and progressively increase them as the season went on eventually splitting the time equally between MB and JC.

Joe Gibbs: .....[blink].....[blink, blink].....

Assistant C: "Well, what do you think?"

Joe Gibbs: .....[blink].....[blink,blink]....

Assistant C: {fidgeting nervously} "...uhh, it's been done before....loo-look at Cleveland this past year....t-th-they d-did a good job with that."

Joe Gibbs: .....[blink].....[blink,blink]....

Assistant C:"Uh, just kidding?"

Joe Gibbs: "Okay, I think we'll go with plan A and get Mark's conditioning program upgraded. Thanks guys for your input!"[/quote]

I suggested the shotgun to Joe in 2004 and he almost threw me out of the room.

So, assistant C should maybe wait a bit and bring it up again. The blinking is a good sign by the way.

Re: How Will Cambell Be Handled?
 

[quote=JoeRedskin]Don't forget to try the veal.[/quote]

And tip your waitress!