Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;277694]
Moreover, I don't really understand how people can say that we shouldn't try to force democracy down people's throats and we should mind our own business, and simultaneously criticize the U.S. government for supporting other dictators. The U.S. government might be hypocritical insofar as it supports dictatorships yet talks about spreading democracy, but that doesn't mean we have to be hypocritical too.[/quote]

A common misconception that alot of people have is that democracy is the right form of government for every country. We don't even really have a democracy, but rather a polyarchy ([url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyarchy]Polyarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]).

That being said, It's not being hypocritical to support a dictator for one set of circumstances, and encourage democracy for another set. Different countries/people need to be governed by different strategies. Democracy is not a "blanket solution" that works on everything.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;277694]I think it's definately a close call. We've blundered our way through the past 3 years, but Saddam was a pretty bad dude.

I'm not talking about you 12thman, but I don't understand how people called for us to get involved in Somalia, Rwanda, Bosnia, Kosovo, and now Sudan because of humanitarian concerns, but totally ignore what Saddam Hussein did to his people. [I]Intentionally[/I] killing 300,000+ civilians in a country the size of Iraq is just about as bad as it gets.

Moreover, I don't really understand how people can say that we shouldn't try to force democracy down people's throats and we should mind our own business, and simultaneously criticize the U.S. government for supporting other dictators. The U.S. government might be hypocritical insofar as it supports dictatorships yet talks about spreading democracy, but that doesn't mean we have to be hypocritical too.[/quote]

I didn't take any of your reponse personally, thanks.

The only conclusion I can come to as to why we chose to get involved in Iraq as apposed to those others is because of the economic thread running through the situation in Iraq.

One thing that war tends to expose is both the strengths/weaknesses and hypocrosy of the invading nation.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=RobH4413;277695]Well, lets also not forget the efforts to remove him and over-take the country has led to the death of more than 655,000 people. I think we should have gone in during the Gulf War... but that's neither here nor there.

While Sadaam was a terrible tyrant... I'm not sure the country is in the "better". According to the [URL="http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat3.htm"]Twentieth Century Atlas - Death Tolls and Casualty Statistics for Wars, Dictatorships and Genocides[/URL] there is alot of bad shit going on, and I think the United States needs to look long and hard at what our obligation necessarily is.

Where one see's a crime of omission, another see's an oppurtunity to avoid future conflict (ie middle east turmoil). We haven't seen the worst of what's going on yet... and we need to really really think about the implications of our actions.

Right now I'm sure attacking Iran is a wrong move. Theres way to much at stake.[/quote]

Good article in Today's WP about Bush's recent comments on Iran. He's certainly going out of the way to avoid any language or pretext to war with Iran. Good move.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=12thMan;277701]Good article in Today's WP about Bush's recent comments on Iran. He's certainly going out of the way to avoid any language or pretext to war with Iran. Good move.[/quote]
I actually haven't read the paper yet today (late morning because of school closings)

I'm going to go drink some tomatoe soup and read that bad-boy...

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=RobH4413;277695]Well, lets also not forget the efforts to remove him and over-take the country has led to the death of more than 655,000 people. I think we should have gone in during the Gulf War... but that's neither here nor there.

While Sadaam was a terrible tyrant... I'm not sure the country is in the "better". According to the [URL="http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat3.htm"]Twentieth Century Atlas - Death Tolls and Casualty Statistics for Wars, Dictatorships and Genocides[/URL] there is alot of bad shit going on, and I think the United States needs to look long and hard at what our obligation necessarily is.

Where one see's a crime of omission, another see's an oppurtunity to avoid future conflict (ie middle east turmoil). We haven't seen the worst of what's going on yet... and we need to really really think about the implications of our actions.

Right now I'm sure attacking Iran is a wrong move. Theres way to much at stake.[/quote]
I'm not sure how you came up with those numbers and the ones in you link assume allot of stuff. It used numbers saying that we starved them when food was suppose to be traded for oil. Where did the food go? I also here that the country had no money because of the embargo. He found money to build all those palaces and to rebuild his army but he let his people die. So I don't think those numbers can be accurate or used saying that the UN embargo killed them. Also some of the sources used was The Church of Christ which is a group that is against the war so how do we know that they don't make the numbers support their view?

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=firstdown;277706]I'm not sure how you came up with those numbers and the ones in you link assume allot of stuff. It used numbers saying that we starved them when food was suppose to be traded for oil. Where did the food go? I also here that the country had no money because of the embargo. He found money to build all those palaces and to rebuild his army but he let his people die. So I don't think those numbers can be accurate or used saying that the UN embargo killed them. Also some of the sources used was The Church of Christ which is a group that is against the war so how do we know that they don't make the numbers support their view?[/quote]
Yeah, what I liked about the site is that it uses several sources to produce their own numbers. So if you disagree with their numbers... simply look at different sources and compare... (it's also interesting to see some of the drastic differences).

The 665,000 numbers for those who have died in the Iraqi war... those numbers are not hard to find. Washington post reports:

[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html"]Study Claims Iraq's 'Excess' Death Toll Has Reached 655,000 - washingtonpost.com[/URL]
It's far higher than actual, and I should have looked further... but I needed a number and that's what I found

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/11/iraq.deaths/]Study: War blamed for 655,000 Iraqi deaths - CNN.com[/url]

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;277706]I'm not sure how you came up with those numbers and the ones in you link assume allot of stuff. It used numbers saying that we starved them when food was suppose to be traded for oil. Where did the food go? I also here that the country had no money because of the embargo. He found money to build all those palaces and to rebuild his army but he let his people die. So I don't think those numbers can be accurate or used saying that the UN embargo killed them. Also some of the sources used was The Church of Christ which is a group that is against the war so how do we know that they don't make the numbers support their view?[/QUOTE]

Exactly, the North Koreans are doing the same thing. Saddam and Kim Jong-Il starve their people and everyone blames us because those dictators prefer to supply their armies and personal palaces to feeding their people.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

we can't invade iran. not without a massive, massive draft. logistically, it's just not possible without nuclear force, or a sweeping internal revolution for support.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[QUOTE=That Guy;277768]we can't invade iran. not without a massive, massive draft. logistically, it's just not possible without nuclear force, or a sweeping internal revolution for support.[/QUOTE]

Is anyone actually considering invading Iran? I don't think even the most hawkish of politicians would support such a move. This is just another example of the media creating hype. Relations are bad with Iran and we have some serious issues to deal with (e.g., nukes and Iraq), but WW III is not going to break out.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;277773]Is anyone actually considering invading Iran? I don't think even the most hawkish of politicians would support such a move. This is just another example of the media creating hype. Relations are bad with Iran and we have some serious issues to deal with (e.g., nukes and Iraq), but WW III is not going to break out.[/quote]

i know we won't, but for anyone that was wondering, iraq has 29million people (in 170,000 sq miles) and we don't have enough troops there to do what's being asked right now... iran has 70million people (in 636,000 sq miles) and post-conflict, would have vastly less stable borders in all likelihood. various news outlets (mainly tv) have hinted at it or asked about it every now and then, and it's just not even a remote possibility.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;277670]Schools where not at 100 prior to the invasion they had droped 53% by the 90's due to the neglect from Sadam. I don't have time to look up the other info right now but I will. So don't get infuriated with me I just think any positives are totaly ignored by our main media. Just listen to someone who has been over there. I know the news only has the one's who have problems with us over there and ignores the others.
[URL="http://www.usaid.gov/press/factsheets/2003/fs030818.html"]USAID Fact Sheet: Rehabilitating Iraq's Basic Education System[/URL][/QUOTE]


Sorry, I tried to edit out the infuriated comment. When i saw it on paper it looked a lot stronger then I had intended. So I am not infuriated.
But I have about 10 friends who have served　or are serving over there, one of whom is one of my closest friends in life, and while they are proud of the work they have been a part of, they do not relay the message to me that things are predominantly going smoothly. To the contrary they believe, and recent troop surveys back this up, that our presence there complicates our mission because of the hatred we engender among the Iraqi people. It just seemed to me that you were suggesting that, with the notable exception of Baghdad, things are pretty much going according to plan, and I dont think thats the case.　　Ｊｕｓｔ　ｔｈｉｓ　ｗｅｅｋ　ａ　ｓｕｒｖｅｙ　ｏｆ　ａｂｏｕｔ　１００　ｆｏｒｅｉｇｎ　ｐｏｌｉｃｙ　
experts revealed the opinion ｔｈａｔ this thing is an unmitigated disaster. So I am still interested in hearing about who you are reading who is suggesting otherwise.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65;277810]It just seemed to me that you were suggesting that, with the notable exception of Baghdad, things are pretty much going according to plan, and I dont think thats the case.[/QUOTE]

I too have a lot of friends in the Army who are serving or have served in Iraq. My understanding is that the fighting is pretty much limited to the areas surrounding Baghdad and the Anbar province - essentially the Sunni triangle. You can tell that this is true by simply looking at the casualty reports and looking at where the soldiers were killed.

In the North, the Kurds have been and continue to run their own show. The Kurdish North is pretty much its own state and the Kurds are actually quite friendly to the U.S. It's no wonder that they are friendly towards us since the only thing that keeps them from getting annhilated by countries like Turkey is the United States.

As for the South, it too is pretty pacific. The Shiites are pretty much doing their own thing. That is not good for U.S. interests, but they're pretty happy. For decades the Shiites were "on the run" under Saddam and now they are running the show.

The problem areas are most in and around Baghdad. That shouldn't come as a big surprise considering it is the most ethnically heterogeneous part of the country - Shiites killing Sunnis, Sunnis killing Shiites, Americans killing terrorists, terrorists killing Americans, civilians getting caught in the crossfire.

I highly doubt the Baghdad security plan will work, but it's targeting the "trouble spot."

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=djnemo65;277810]Sorry, I tried to edit out the infuriated comment. When i saw it on paper it looked a lot stronger then I had intended. So I am not infuriated.
But I have about 10 friends who have served　or are serving over there, one of whom is one of my closest friends in life, and while they are proud of the work they have been a part of, they do not relay the message to me that things are predominantly going smoothly. To the contrary they believe, and recent troop surveys back this up, that our presence there complicates our mission because of the hatred we engender among the Iraqi people. It just seemed to me that you were suggesting that, with the notable exception of Baghdad, things are pretty much going according to plan, and I dont think thats the case.　　Ｊｕｓｔ　ｔｈｉｓ　ｗｅｅｋ　ａ　ｓｕｒｖｅｙ　ｏｆ　ａｂｏｕｔ　１００　ｆｏｒｅｉｇｎ　ｐｏｌｉｃｙ　
experts revealed the opinion ｔｈａｔ this thing is an unmitigated disaster. So I am still interested in hearing about who you are reading who is suggesting otherwise.[/quote]
I did not take that as offensive so all is good. Can you give us a link to that survey you are talking about. I have been unable to find the article about a survey of the Iraq people and if they feel safe so here's what it said. 90% of Iraq's feel safe and are living normal lives but it did state that they did not survey (securtiy reasons) Anabar and one other providence which they said could lower the number to around 75% because they are the most affected ares at this time.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

I had to revive a goody when I saw this. This the type of thing we don't see enough of:

LONG , but worth is, regardless of your party affiliation.

All the Politicians and Anti War protesters need to read this ! And all
who do not
support our troops, and the main stream media who choose not to show all
the good
that is being done, or the mass graves found.

Two weeks ago, as I was starting my sixth month of duty in Iraq , I was
forced to
return to the USA for surgery for an injury I sustained prior to my
deployment. With
luck, I'll return to Iraq in January to finish my tour.
I left Baghdad and a war that has every indication that we are winning, to
return to
a demoralized country much like the one I returned to in 1971 after my tour in
Vietnam .
Maybe it's because I'll turn 60 years old in just four months, but I'm tired:
I'm tired of spineless politicians, both Democrat and Republican who lack the
courage, fortitude, and character to see these difficult tasks through.
I'm tired of the hypocrisy of politicians who want to rewrite history when
the going
gets tough.
I'm tired of the disingenuous clamor from those that claim they "Support
the Troops"
by wanting them to "Cut and Run" before victory is achieved.
I'm tired of a mainstream media that can only focus on car bombs and casualty
reports because they are too afraid to leave the safety of their hotels to
report on
the courage and success our brave men and women are having on the battlefield.
I'm tired that so many American's think you can rebuild a dictatorship into a
democracy over night.
I'm tired that so many ignore the bravery of the Iraqi people to go to the
voting
booth and freely elect a Constitution and soon a permanent Parliament.
I'm tired of the so called "Elite Left" that prolongs this war by giving
aid and
comfort to our enemy, just as they did during the Vietnam War. (Like Jane
Fonda)
I'm tired of anti-war protesters showing up at the funerals of our fallen
in a just
and noble cause, only to be cruelly tormented on the funeral day by cowardly
protesters is beyond shameful.
I'm tired that my generation, the Baby Boom - Vietnam generation, who have
such a
weak backbone that they can't stomach seeing the difficult tasks through to
victory.
I'm tired that some are more concerned about the treatment of captives then
they are
the slaughter and beheading of our citizens and allies.
I'm tired that when we find mass graves it is seldom reported by the press, but
mistreat a prisoner and it is front page news.
Mostly, I'm tired that the people of this great nation didn't learn from
history
that there is no substitute for Victory.
Sincerely,
Joe Repya
Lieutenant Colonel
U. S. Army
101st Airborne Division

I've learned....
That the best classroom in the world is at the feet of an elderly person

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

Hog, what made you dig this up?

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

I might add, I don't think anyone here would say they don't "support" our troops. It's just that politicians have different ways of spinning what "support" means to them.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=12thMan;302137]Hog, what made you dig this up?[/quote]

Rather slow on the WP until draft.

My father in law, a Vietnam combat pilot sent this to me. I had not seen it before. It did not cater to any particular party to much. I find this sort of stuff considerably more informative than the spin swill the media spoon feeds us. Problem is, you don't get enough.
Soooo, what the hell! Enjoy

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

I hear ya. It's been really quiet on both the political front as well as football.

The media is pulling out their hair out right now. Speaking of hair, they don't even have Sanjya to talk about anymore!

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

No matter how tuff my day is, I can take solace the fact that Sanjya got the AX!

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=Hog1;302171]No matter how tuff my day is, I can take solace the fact that Sanjya got the AX![/quote]

I'd bet a jar of hair gel that he's going to be on someone's weird TV program soon!

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

[quote=12thMan;302141]I might add, I don't think anyone here would say they don't "support" our troops. It's just that politicians have different ways of spinning what "support" means to them.[/quote]
this infuriates me. i do not support president bush's decision to have the united states at war. but i do support our troops that fight to give the Iraqi people the very freedom that i enjoy. there is a big difference in not supporting a political decision, and not supporting our boys over there. may they all come home safely.

Re: Iran Supplying Weapons to Iraq?
 

My 2 cents.

We will not go to war with Iran until we stabalize Iraq because we do not like to fight wars on two fronts.

Iraq is not as bad as it seems, but it does still need to get better.

We are not just going to pull out of there anytime soon because it is a strategic foothold in the Middle East.

All of this deliberation between the President and Congress is only hurting the Warriors in Iraq, because without a budget there is no money, and allocation from somewhere elseis hurting all of DOD.

I'M done.

Sponsored by the guy who doesn't have to do it anymore.