Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;564577]How else I'm I suppose to answer a silly question? You're still the champ man, you still have the biggest in the block...I'm not worthy :headbange

I'll grab a beer with you any time but I don't know about pulling chairs out from under old ladies. I would much rather hit on waitresses and trash TTL.[/quote]

I'm not clear how asking you to clarify the things you post is silly. Can you explain? The less intelligent on this site, like myself clearly, might learn something.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=FRPLG;564621]I'm not clear how asking you to clarify the things you post is silly. Can you explain? The less intelligent on this site, like myself clearly, might learn something.[/quote]

Your postulation is f'ed up therefore your question is silly. Calling someone inexpert does not imply that you're an expert. This shouldn't require explanation. Furthermore, you took an extra step off of a cliff by asking me if I think I'm smarter than everyone else on the site. I answered your question right the first time, even better the second time but you still want to continue your silliness.

I hope you learned something from this exchange.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;564606]Once again a liberal makes a statement then refuses to answer the question.[/quote]


Look, you said they're stealing your money via SS and not going to jail. If you can infer that the government is stealing your money I can by the same token infer that the guys running my mutual funds are stealing my money. Lord knows my portfolio is down the shiiter.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;564577]How else I'm I suppose to answer a silly question? You're still the champ man, you still have the biggest in the block...I'm not worthy :headbange

I'll grab a beer with you any time but I don't know about pulling chairs out from under old ladies. I would much rather hit on waitresses and trash TTL.[/quote]

Trash who? Don't let your fiancee see you flirting with the waitresses. You can try, but you can't make chicken salad out of chicken s**t, and I'm not the only one who sees through your little BS. I could care less, I just got my Dallas at Washington ticket reservations today. :woot:

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;564628]Look, you said they're stealing your money via SS and not going to jail. If you can infer that the government is stealing your money I can by the same token infer that the guys running my mutual funds are stealing my money. Lord knows my portfolio is down the shiiter.[/quote]
The difference is that your portfolio is in the shitter because the investments are down (they will come back) but your money was put into the funds. With SS the money has been diverted to other things beside SS thus the goverment took my money for one thing but spent it on something else. Thus they stole my money.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;564627]Your postulation is f'ed up therefore your question is silly. Calling someone inexpert does not imply that you're an expert. This shouldn't require explanation. Furthermore, you took an extra step off of a cliff by asking me if I think I'm smarter than everyone else on the site. I answered your question right the first time, even better the second time but you still want to continue your silliness.

I hope you learned something from this exchange.[/quote]

Ok, so if one is not an expert then by obvious logic one must be "inexpert". Correct?

If that is indeed the case your initial use of "inexpert" is odd. It seemed to be meant to describe those of opposing views. Sort of a derogatory jab if you will. Is that what you meant?

You've since made posts which seem to hedge on your own perceived expertness. So are you "inexpert" on the related discussion? If so did you inadvertently take a crack at yourself?

Maybe my perception of your use of "inexpert" is fouled up.

Is this the post you considered the right answer the "first time"?
[quote=saden1;564501]You're a free man, you can infer whatever you want.[/quote]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=FRPLG;564641]Ok, so if one is not an expert then by obvious logic one must be "inexpert". Correct?

If that is indeed the case your initial use of "inexpert" is odd. It seemed to be meant to describe those of opposing views. Sort of a derogatory jab if you will. Is that what you meant?

You've since made posts which seem to hedge on your own perceived expertness. So are you "inexpert" on the related discussion? If so did you inadvertently take a crack at yourself?

Maybe my perception of your use of "inexpert" is fouled up.

Is this the post you considered the right answer the "first time"?[/quote]

You are incorrect.
a) Definition of an expert is "a person with a high degree of skill in or knowledge of a certain subject."
b) There are degrees of expertise, there's also diversity in expertise in particular field or subject matter.
c) You can be an expert and yet be an inexpert next to someone with more expertise.

In conclusion "it's easy to trap the inexpert." This is not about opposing views but merely knowing what you're talking about before entering the public square.

My first answer was perfectly reasonable answer to the question "insinuating that you are the expert right?"

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;564646]
My first answer was perfectly reasonable [B]answer [/B]to the question "insinuating that you are the expert right?"[/quote]

Certainly not. It may have been a reasonable [B]response[/B] but an [B]answer[/B] to a pointed question it was not. It provided no explanation whatsoever. But now we're quibbling.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Schneed10;564575]Attention Please. Note that I am no longer the biggest asshole on this site, because no post has ever been assholier than this.

I'm impressed, saden. You and me should grab a beer sometime and pull chairs out from under old ladies when they're trying to sit down.[/quote]

Point well taken.............

Re: Obama Care
 

I'll bet a 100 bucks that congress will exclude themself from having to take the Obama Care.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;564635]The difference is that your portfolio is in the shitter because the investments are down (they will come back) but your money was put into the funds. With SS the money has been diverted to other things beside SS thus the goverment took my money for one thing but spent it on something else. Thus they stole my money.[/quote]Your point about SS being stolen is right, but part of saden's point is also correct. The difference in our portfolio's is partially because the funds/economy are down, but also keep in mind the guys running our 401Ks and the mutual funds they invest in are often colluding together in a major way. Put the 401K money in this fund to help me get my bonus, then I'll skim you a percentage here, percentage there, bonus $$$ off the top of contributions, plus the fact that we don't have direct control of our 401Ks to move money out quickly when there is a drastic market turn. By the time we can react, it's too late.

I'm done allowing others control over my $$$. I'm putting the minimum required in my 401K (my corp match isn't very good). Once the economy turns a bit, my savings will be going into a self-directed IRA, or similar vehicle that I can control as necessary, or into expanding my business.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;564664]Your point about SS being stolen is right, but part of saden's point is also correct. The difference in our portfolio's is partially because the funds/economy are down, but also keep in mind the guys running our 401Ks and the mutual funds they invest in are often colluding together in a major way. Put the 401K money in this fund to help me get my bonus, then I'll skim you a percentage here, percentage there, bonus $$$ off the top of contributions, plus the fact that we don't have direct control of our 401Ks to move money out quickly when there is a drastic market turn. By the time we can react, it's too late.

I'm done allowing others control over my $$$. I'm putting the minimum required in my 401K (my corp match isn't very good). Once the economy turns a bit, my savings will be going into a self-directed IRA, or similar vehicle that I can control as necessary, or into expanding my business.[/quote]

Putting money into one fund or the other usually does not change a persons bonus structure as they get paid by the company based on the ammount not the fund family. For example. I work for campany ABC and I sell a 401 plan to some company my pay is based on the dollar amount not the fund the money is placed. I would also say that 99.99% of the people who sell the funds have never met anyone who works or run these fund families. Take a company like INK they have hundreds a fund families which range in different risk and its up to the writer or broker to decide which risk tollerence their client matches then have the customer pick a fund within the risk. If I'm correct with your 401 you should have at some point where you picked the funds and sat down with someone to do this. I had a series 6 and 63 lic to sell mutural funds but found my time better spent selling property and casualty and traditional life products so I let that lic. go a few years back.

If you pull the money out of your 401 and do not put it back into another type of investment (not a business) you may have some penalties and tax issues.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;564664]Your point about SS being stolen is right, but part of saden's point is also correct. The difference in our portfolio's is partially because the funds/economy are down, but also keep in mind the guys running our 401Ks and the mutual funds they invest in are often colluding together in a major way. Put the 401K money in this fund to help me get my bonus, then I'll skim you a percentage here, percentage there, bonus $$$ off the top of contributions, plus the fact that we don't have direct control of our 401Ks to move money out quickly when there is a drastic market turn. By the time we can react, it's too late.

I'm done allowing others control over my $$$. I'm putting the minimum required in my 401K (my corp match isn't very good). Once the economy turns a bit, my savings will be going into a self-directed IRA, or similar vehicle that I can control as necessary, or into expanding my business.[/quote]
Great post Mr. Baugh ! I actually roled my Roth IRA into a brokerage account , it was the best move I have ever made as far as personal finance ! With CNBC TV and some of the Internet sites , like Zach's and Seekingalpha.com , I have been able do make some nice gains since March. The great thing about having control over your IRA , you can almost guarantee some gains ,,,, buying stocks that pay nice dividends the day before the ex-dividend date [url=http://www.investopedia.com/articles/stocks/07/ex_dividend.asp?viewed=1]Make Ex-Dividends Work For You[/url] . Thus getting some free money < and no taxation on IRA's > !

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;564619]I think we're definitely on the same wave-length, we would just need to hammer out cost details to get to the best cost/value solution. It's funny how within a few posts reasonable people can come to pretty close agreement on most things......maybe the folks inside 1600 PA Ave. and on the Hill should pay attention to this site LOL.[/quote]


Did you just call me reasonable?...that's a first.

Re: Obama Care
 

...and then socialism becomes communism.

Re: Obama Care
 

This is entertaining..........

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV-C9GadZ8w]YouTube - BOB & TOM TV "Obama Man" by Greg Morton[/ame]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Hog1;565170]This is entertaining..........

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV-C9GadZ8w"]YouTube - BOB & TOM TV "Obama Man" by Greg Morton[/URL][/quote]


Very entertaining....I love it!

Obama man makes the world feel good and conservatives feel all mad and acting cad. Obama man is such a bad man, he makes folks wish Ronald Reagan wasn't dead. Too bad, It's all so sad to be a conservative in this great land. Obama man can! Get behind the plan, there's room for one more fan.

Yes he can, man!

Re: Obama Care
 

Here's John Stossel on Canada's [URL="http://www.reason.com/news/show/134553.html"]"free"[/URL] health care system.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;565184]Very entertaining....I love it!

Obama man makes the world feel good and conservatives feel all mad and acting cad. Obama man is such a bad man, he makes folks wish Ronald Reagan wasn't dead. Too bad, It's all so sad to be a conservative in this great land. Obama man can! Get behind the plan, there's room for one more fan.

Yes he can, man![/quote] Happy 4th Saden . Conservatives feel " mad & cad " ,,,, like Liberals werent the last 8 years :) ? The truth is , 25 years from now , it will be liberal democrats that will suffer the most from Obama/Pelosi policies . Lawyers , IT technichans and dem's with job skills to work in high paying jobs will do fine < as do people along all political lines > , but the lib's who always expect the Gov't to " give " them something will be left with very little ,,, no such thing as a free lunch . I happen to be happy at the moment , I invested some $ in stem cell com and solar stocks after the election and have made some damn nice returns . Happy 4th skins fans !

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=budw38;565844]Happy 4th Saden . Conservatives feel " mad & cad " ,,,, like Liberals werent the last 8 years :) ? The truth is , 25 years from now , it will be liberal democrats that will suffer the most from Obama/Pelosi policies . Lawyers , IT technichans and dem's with job skills to work in high paying jobs will do fine < as do people along all political lines > , but the lib's who always expect the Gov't to " give " them something will be left with very little ,,, no such thing as a free lunch . I happen to be happy at the moment , I invested some $ in stem cell com and solar stocks after the election and have made some damn nice returns . Happy 4th skins fans ![/quote]

You too man...Happy 4th of July.

I ain't gonna lie, I was mad but I got over it. I think we'll be alright.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Beemnseven;565828]Here's John Stossel on Canada's [URL="http://www.reason.com/news/show/134553.html"]"free"[/URL] health care system.[/quote]

This stuck out to me:
[b]In America, people wait in emergency rooms, too, but it's much worse in Canada. If you're sick enough to be admitted, the average wait is 23 hours.[/b]

and

[b]More than a million and a half Canadians say they can't find a family doctor. Some towns hold lotteries to determine who gets a doctor.[/b]

But while you attempted to educate on the down fall of universal healthcare, I bet your attempts were futile. It really shows us it's a dumb idea, but people just won't listen. It's a shame really. No matter how much you bring that horse to the water, it's still the horses responsibility to drink. Nothing we can do about it.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=jsarno;565861]This stuck out to me:
[b]In America, people wait in emergency rooms, too, but it's much worse in Canada. If you're sick enough to be admitted, the average wait is 23 hours.[/b]

and

[b]More than a million and a half Canadians say they can't find a family doctor. Some towns hold lotteries to determine who gets a doctor.[/b]

But while you attempted to educate on the down fall of universal healthcare, I bet your attempts were futile. It really shows us it's a dumb idea, but people just won't listen. It's a shame really. No matter how much you bring that horse to the water, it's still the horses responsibility to drink. Nothing we can do about it.[/quote]

Yeah, I think most people who favor universal care just look at it from the standpoint that it's one less bill they'll have to pay. Unfortunately, the idea has been fostered for many, many years that medical care is the responsibility of someone else; your employer, or the government -- but certainly not you.

Re: Obama Care
 

Hello folks,

This Canadian doctor shortage isn't due to universal healthcare but [URL="http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM0013191"]many factors[/URL]. Canada is suffering from medical practitioners shortage just as we are from [URL="http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE5270VC20090308"]nursing shortage[/URL]. It just so happens ours isn't as pronounced yet. Please believe this is going to be a problem for us going forward whether we have or don't have universal healthcare. Play "Spot the Foreigner" next time you're at the doctor's office. Also, a friend of mines mother lives in the boondocks and she has to travel 2.5 hours to Seattle to see a doctor so I wonder if I can blame this on the current system.

For **** sake people, you guys are smarter than this.

Re: Obama Care
 

I'm sure the shortage of doctors has nothing to do with pay and males able to find higher paying jobs in the private market.

Re: Obama Care
 

Obama's plan is allready working (well not working that good) in Massachusetts but when I posted this in another thread people who argue for un health care seem to ignore post like this. I guess its hard to argue against facts of how its not working in Massachusetts when the numbers show its actually driving up cost and is now more then private ins. Then you just need to take a look at Ca. and their 26 billion in dept from social programs just like this but why let facts get in the way.

The proponents of the Massachusetts reforms
also promised that those reforms would
reduce health care costs. Governor Romney
said that “the cost of health care would be reduced”
and the plan would make health insurance
“affordable” for every Massachusetts citizen.


27

Supporters suggested that the reforms


would reduce the price of individual insurance

policies by 25–40 percent.



28

In reality, insurance premiums rose by 7.4

percent in 2007, 8–12 percent in 2008, and are
expected to rise 9 percent this year.



29 By comparison,


nationwide insurance costs rose by

6.1 percent in 2007, just 4.7 percent in 2008,
and are projected to increase 6.4 percent this
year.



30 On average, health insurance costs


$16,897 for a family of four in Massachusetts,


compared to $12,700 nationally.

31



Boy that sounds just like what the Dems and Obama are saying right now.
[URL]http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp112.pdf[/URL]

I know this was not the best copy and paste but for the people who feel so strong about goverment run ins. why do you think it will be any different in cost then what happened here. Then just mane a large federal programe that is not over budget or running in the negative.

Re: Obama Care
 

Great posts Firstdown !!

Re: Obama Care
 

Here something interesting for you folks who think the decline in the number of people going into medicine in Canada is due to pay:

On average a Senior Software Engineer with 5 years of experience in Vancouver B.C. [URL="http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Country=Canada"]makes C$72,750[/URL] (roughly $62,744), and the average Senior Software Engineer in Seattle with 5 years of experience [URL="http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Country=United_States"]makes $90,275[/URL]. What this means is that a Canadian Sr. Software Engineers makes roughly $27,531 (44%) less than his American counterpart.

On average a Family Physician/Doctor in Canada [URL="http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/People_with_Jobs_as_Physicians_/_Doctors/Salary"]makes C$116,757[/URL] (roughly $100,704), and the average Family Physician/Doctor in United States [URL="http://www.payscale.com/research/US/People_with_Doctor_of_Medicine_%28MD%29_Degrees/Salary"]makes $135,454[/URL]. What this means is that a Canadian Family Physician/Doctor makes roughly $34,750 (35%) less than his American counterpart.

Why take anyone's word for it if you can do the research yourself? On the real tip though, the field of medicine is one of the highest paying fields there is regardless where you are in the world.

Re: Obama Care
 

So I guess I can now say I make more then the average doctor. I would have never guessed that by the doctors I know.

Re: Obama Care
 

Saden, let me ask you this; and keep in mind, we aren't talking about conservative or liberal viewpoints, this is just plain old common sense -- what happens to the quality of anything thing that is "free" ??

On average, is a public defender as good as an attorney that you pay for out of your own pocket?

Do you know any veterans? Ask any of them what they think of the service they have received at a veterans hospital.

If McDonalds started giving away free Big Macs, what would the lines be like at Mickey D's? And what would happen to the quality of the Big Macs?

Again, forget ideology -- just think about street smarts. You get what you pay for, right?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;565944]Hello folks,

This Canadian doctor shortage isn't due to universal healthcare but [URL="http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM0013191"]many factors[/URL]. Canada is suffering from medical practitioners shortage just as we are from [URL="http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE5270VC20090308"]nursing shortage[/URL]. [B]It just so happens ours isn't as pronounced yet. [/B]Please believe this is going to be a problem for us going forward whether we have or don't have universal healthcare. Play "Spot the Foreigner" next time you're at the doctor's office. Also, a friend of mines mother lives in the boondocks and she has to travel 2.5 hours to Seattle to see a doctor so I wonder if I can blame this on the current system.

For **** sake people, you guys are smarter than this.[/quote]

Try giving nearly 50 million more Americans insurance in a short time span and watch how quickly it becomes pronounced.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GMScud;566171]Try giving nearly 50 million more Americans insurance in a short time span and watch how quickly it becomes pronounced.[/quote]

I generally love your posts GM (even though I am obviously to the left of you, your reasoning is sound and your command of your mother language impressive) but this is an absurd argument. If you are implying that we should keep a large number of people uninsured so as to protect the quality of care for those that do have it, and I think that you are, well I mean, that's a pretty unpalatable position to take.

And First, well it is true that the MA plan is rife with problems, you need to get something straight - it was universally derided by the left as a give away to the insurance companies, a cop out compromise by Romney and company that would do nothing to control costs (which it hasn't). So its failures do not represent the last word on health care reform.

And Beems, there are plenty of services that we give away for free in this country that still manage to be high quality. Had your house catch on fire recently?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Beemnseven;566164]Saden, let me ask you this; and keep in mind, we aren't talking about conservative or liberal viewpoints, this is just plain old common sense -- what happens to the quality of anything thing that is "free" ??

On average, is a public defender as good as an attorney that you pay for out of your own pocket?

Do you know any veterans? Ask any of them what they think of the service they have received at a veterans hospital.

If McDonalds started giving away free Big Macs, what would the lines be like at Mickey D's? And what would happen to the quality of the Big Macs?

Again, forget ideology -- just think about street smarts. You get what you pay for, right?[/quote] AWESOME POST !!! How many people would their kid into a " dump " because the sign read " free root canals " Dr. Spock , as opposed to their family Dentist where a Co - Pay was needed ....

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=djnemo65;566199]I generally love your posts GM (even though I am obviously to the left of you, your reasoning is sound and your command of your mother language impressive) but this is an absurd argument. [B]If you are implying that we should keep a large number of people uninsured so as to protect the quality of care for those that do have it, and I think that you are, well I mean, that's a pretty unpalatable position to take. [/B]

And First, well it is true that the MA plan is rife with problems, you need to get something straight - it was universally derided by the left as a give away to the insurance companies, a cop out compromise by Romney and company that would do nothing to control costs (which it hasn't). So its failures do not represent the last word on health care reform.

And Beems, there are plenty of services that we give away for free in this country that still manage to be high quality. Had your house catch on fire recently?[/quote]

Not what I'm saying at all. Saden's comment that I bolded in my response was about how Canada is visibly suffering from a shortage of medical practitioners, similar to how here in the USA we have a big shortage of nurses. However that nursing shortage, according to Saden, isn't as pronounced as Canada's practitioner shortage. I agree with that.

My point was our nursing shortage will certainly be much more "pronounced" under Obama care than it currently is today. Nowhere did I say we should keep 50 million people without insurance simply to stave off the pronouncement of said shortage.

EDIT: There are numerous reasons I dislike Obama care. The dilution of quality of care is just one of them.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=Beemnseven;566164]Saden, let me ask you this; and keep in mind, we aren't talking about conservative or liberal viewpoints, this is [B]just plain old common sense[/B] -- what happens to the quality of anything thing that is "free" ??

On average, is a public defender as good as an attorney that you pay for out of your own pocket?

Do you know any veterans? Ask any of them what they think of the service they have received at a veterans hospital.

If McDonald's started giving away free Big Macs, what would the lines be like at Mickey D's? And what would happen to the quality of the Big Macs?

Again, forget ideology -- just think about street smarts. You get what you pay for, right?[/quote]

You know common sense is subjective right?

[LIST=1][*][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_defender#Federal_Public_Defender_systems"]Public defense[/URL] done right [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_defender#Comparison_of_state_and_Federal_PD_systems"]is every bit as good[/URL] as private defense. You knew this, right?[*] My cousin is a nurse at a veteran hospital in Phoenix AZ. She tells me they provide service comparable to that of the private sector and that they are behind none when it comes to bionics research. The most recent Survey of Veterans can be found [URL="http://www1.va.gov/vetdata/page.cfm?pg=5"]here[/URL], my cousin might be full of shit and I'm you'll wade through it and tell me if you find something interesting, right?[*] McDonald's is really a bad example of a private company that sells quality products. They are in the business of cutting corners to maximize profits and their food is not fit to serve a dog. This is common sense and I am sure you understand where I am coming from, right?[/LIST]For a brief moment I thought I knew what you were getting at but then I realized you and I don't think alike.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GMScud;566211]Not what I'm saying at all. Saden's comment that I bolded in my response was about how Canada is visibly suffering from a shortage of medical practitioners, similar to how here in the USA we have a big shortage of nurses. However that nursing shortage, according to Saden, isn't as pronounced as Canada's practitioner shortage. I agree with that.

My point was our nursing shortage will certainly be much more "pronounced" under Obama care than it currently is today. Nowhere did I say we should keep 50 million people without insurance simply to stave off the pronouncement of said shortage.

EDIT: There are numerous reasons I dislike Obama care. The dilution of quality of care is just one of them.[/quote]

What I am also saying is that sometime in the next decade or two the United States will also have doctor shortage much like the current nursing shortage if not worse. It will be pronounced and painful whether we have mostly a private healthcare system or mostly a public healthcare system. Regardless of what we have [URL="http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-02-26-doctor-shortage_N.htm"]it doesn't look good[/URL] (a must read).

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GMScud;566211]Not what I'm saying at all. Saden's comment that I bolded in my response was about how Canada is visibly suffering from a shortage of medical practitioners, similar to how here in the USA we have a big shortage of nurses. However that nursing shortage, according to Saden, isn't as pronounced as Canada's practitioner shortage. I agree with that.

My point was our nursing shortage will certainly be much more "pronounced" under Obama care than it currently is today. Nowhere did I say we should keep 50 million people without insurance simply to stave off the pronouncement of said shortage.

EDIT: There are numerous reasons I dislike Obama care. The dilution of quality of care is just one of them.[/quote]

OK, but this means that you are saying that we should limit access to care for these 50 million people without insurance, at least in part, to protect the quality of care for people with insurance. You can't claim dilution of quality care as a disadvantage of the plan without at least implicitly advocating the status quo.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;566285]What I am also saying is that sometime in the next decade or two the United States will also have doctor shortage much like the current nursing shortage if not worse. It will be pronounced and painful whether we have mostly a private healthcare system or mostly a public healthcare system. [B]Regardless of what we have [URL="http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-02-26-doctor-shortage_N.htm"]it doesn't look good[/URL] (a must read).[/B][/quote]

That was a good read, thanks for the link. I think we need to consider ways to make medical school more affordable so graduates aren't running from lesser paid general surgery and family practices (the crux of rural healthcare). Somehow, we've got to find a way to make the medical profession a more desirable field without cheapening it at the same time.

How many people want to spend a minimum of 4+ years in med school working their ass off only to graduate a quarter of a million dollars in debt?? Sure some can afford it, and others simply have the drive, but the combination of the two is still falling way short.

Such a complex issue.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=djnemo65;566358]OK, but this means that you are saying that we should limit access to care for these 50 million people without insurance, at least in part, to protect the quality of care for people with insurance. [B]You can't claim dilution of quality care as a disadvantage of the plan without at least implicitly advocating the status quo.[/B][/quote]

Yeah, I guess that's kind of what I'm saying. I'm not saying some kind of reform isn't necessary, and I'm not screaming status quo either. Like I said, I'm far, far from an expert on health care. The opposite really. But if I have the means to pay for my own high quality insurance policy, why should my level of care suffer in order to give insurance to someone who can't/won't pay for it? I guess it boils down to the brass tacks of big/small government, which I don't really care to debate.

I work hard to afford my health insurance. I'm willing to give a few inches to help the uninsured, but not much more than that. By the way, putting some limits on the 50 million people receiving goverment healthcare to protect those who actually pay for it is more than fair in my opinion. You're either willing and/or able to put your hard earned dollars towards your healthcare or you're not. But if you are, you should get to go to the front of line for most things (life threatening situations excluded of course). I'm not saying anyone should be denied care, but if the government is picking up your tab, cry me a friggin a river if you have to wait a while.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GMScud;566365]Yeah, I guess that's kind of what I'm saying. I'm not saying some kind of reform isn't necessary, and I'm not screaming status quo either. Like I said, I'm far, far from an expert on health care. The opposite really. But if I have the means to pay for my own high quality insurance policy, why should my level of care suffer in order to give insurance to someone who can't/won't pay for it? I guess it boils down to the brass tacks of big/small government, which I don't really care to debate.

I work hard to afford my health insurance. I'm willing to give a few inches to help the uninsured,[B] but not much more than that.[/B][/quote]


The problem is that you do, you just think you don't. it is [URL="http://illusioncontest.neuralcorrelate.com/2009/the-break-of-the-curveball/"]all psychological[/URL] you see for things don't pay for themselves.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;566368]The problem is that you do, you just think you don't. it is [URL="http://illusioncontest.neuralcorrelate.com/2009/the-break-of-the-curveball/"]all psychological[/URL] you see for things don't pay for themselves.[/quote]

I'm not sure I understand this post. If you're saying I can give more than a few inches, then you're right. I just don't want to. I'm not heartless. I want to help, but not to the extent that I'm on even par with the folks who are getting their tab picked up by Obama care.