Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=skinsfan69;568517]Both. I think Buzbee is as good as gone. And even though we all know Wynn is a great locker room guy he just doesn't have the athletism to play DE.[/quote]

So Daniels and Jarmon on one side, and Carter and Jackson on the other?

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=SmootSmack;568518]So Daniels and Jarmon on one side, and Carter and Jackson on the other?[/quote]

No. Daniels is coming out on passing downs for Orakpo. Then you have Alexander who can play both end and tackle. Jackson and Jarmon can back up everyone else. There is no reason at all to keep Wynn. None. Teams all over the league let young guys play and it's time we start doing the same.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

I just don't see how we keep both Daniels and Wynn?

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

Vinny has said that Jarmon would learn under Daniels and Wynn and he was under no pressure to hurry. So unless Wynn becomes a coach, I expect him to be on the team.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=53Fan;568526]Vinny has said that Jarmon would learn under Daniels and Wynn and he was under no pressure to hurry. So unless Wynn becomes a coach, I expect him to be on the team.[/quote]
I think that is all BS and Vinny was just trying to calm them down and at least one of them wont make the team.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

Yeah, we have to cut three guys just to sign our draft picks. Wynn make not make it until the end of the month. And with all of the bodies we now have at DE, it is hard to see Wynn making it out of camp.

PS my bad - should be "may not make.."

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=T.O.Killa;568528]I think that is all BS and Vinny was just trying to calm them down and at least one of them wont make the team.[/quote]

I'll bet it's Wynn.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

Competition is a great thing it motivates people, talk about fighting for your job this could be a good thing for our Defense, pay attention to training camp it should be a hot one.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

This definitely gives us a storyline to follow through camp. I think Buzbee is the odd man out here, and the only reason he wouldn't be is because he's younger than Wynn.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=Lotus;568529]Yeah, we have to cut three guys just to sign our draft picks. Wynn make not make it until the end of the month. And with all of the bodies we now have at DE, it is hard to see Wynn making it out of camp.[/quote]

Cut Buzbee and Jackson, or put Jackson on the PS, and there's 2 right there. I haven't heard much talk about Jackson lately.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=Lotus;568529]Yeah, we have to cut three guys just to sign our draft picks. Wynn make not make it until the end of the month. And with all of the bodies we now have at DE, it is hard to see Wynn making it out of camp.[/quote]Agreed, Wynn will be gone. Daniels is Blache's guy from Chicago days.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

One question I haven't seen bandied around, does he count in this year's rookie pool, do we get an increased Rookie pool for the supplemental draft? I know it's only a 3rd rounder, but at one point we were pretty tight at the cap limit. (Still amazes me that the FO made the cap work somehow)

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

From what i've read we get an increased rookie pool.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;568537]One question I haven't seen bandied around, does he count in this year's rookie pool, do we get an increased Rookie pool for the supplemental draft? I know it's only a 3rd rounder, but at one point we were pretty tight at the cap limit. (Still amazes me that the FO made the cap work somehow)[/quote]

Good question. I believe we get an increase this year, but it is deducted next year.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=53Fan;568541]Good question. I believe we get an increase this year, but it is deducted next year.[/quote]

K, that makes sense.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[url=http://www.nflplayers.com/user/template.aspx?fmid=181&lmid=231&pid=531&type=c]NFL Players Association[/url]
Section 3. Calculation (g)

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

Thanks for the link 53Fan, of course it's Friday afternoon, and that legalese boggled my mind. I will look at it again later. :)

for now:food-smil

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=53Fan;568534]Cut Buzbee and Jackson, or put Jackson on the PS, and there's 2 right there. I haven't heard much talk about Jackson lately.[/quote]

I dont think Jackson can go on the PS. Im pretty sure if you are on a roster for the full year (even if you dont dress) you loose PS eligibilty. I dont think we can count Jackson out at all either, he was looking pretty good last year preseason.

I think its got to Wynn or Dainels and Buzbee for sure. I guess this is the hard part about the supp. draft, you get a player that wont contribute much his first year but steals a roster spot. Either way i think a good move, or atleast a good attempt if he doesnt pan out.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=mlmpetert;568546][B]I dont think Jackson can go on the PS. Im pretty sure if you are on a roster for the full year (even if you dont dress) you loose PS eligibilty.[/B] I dont think we can count Jackson out at all either, he was looking pretty good last year preseason.

I think its got to Wynn or Dainels and Buzbee for sure. I guess this is the hard part about the supp. draft, you get a player that wont contribute much his first year but steals a roster spot. Either way i think a good move, or atleast a good attempt if he doesnt pan out.[/quote]

I believe you're right. That's what I get for trying to figure out how the FO thinks. :)

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=Paintrain;568418]But it's not the same at all. If we trade the pick for a player, then another team gets an additional player with our pick. We get a player with our own pick, we just get him 9 months early. It's like Ruhskins said, so many people and fans are conditioned to think that we 'gave up a pick' that anything we do outside of the month of April is a negative.

If the Eagles picked him (and they supposedly put in a 4th round claim) then there would be endless platitudes about how savvy Joe Banner and Andy Reid are for using the supplemental draft and adding a potentially valuable player, not that they threw away a pick.[/quote]

This whole thing started because I mixed my words so it doesn't really matter, but I think it doesn't matter what the other team gets, I don't care about the Dolphins, all that matters to me is the Redskins. From a Redskin-centric viewpoint.
July 2008 - Get Jason Taylor
April 2009 - No 2nd round draft pick
July 2009 - Get Jeremy Jarmon
April 2010 - No 3rd round pick

All of that's irrelevant though, it all comes down to whether you think the guy is worth a 3rd round pick. I think the value is comparable. I would've been happy if he had fell to the 4th round. I wonder if Jarmon will get paid comparable to Kevin Barnes. You would have to think it would be less since he's supplemental, but there would be a slight increase in pay next year for 3rd round picks.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=GridIron26;568472]I can't really say anything to support or be against this move because I have none on this guy beside the reports on him I read.. However, I would have to look at this move as a positive sign for our FO; the reason why we drafted Jarmon is to replace Phillips and Wynn after the 2010 season.. Which is something we rarely do.. I hope the FO will continue this trend..

I guess I can say I'm in waiting-to-see-what-happens mode (pretty much same as everyone else) but I don't think it would be a bust pick for us.. I'm not saying that Jarmon would rise to a great or star player, but I believe he will rise to level where he is serviceable as #1 LDE for years.. Or more..[/quote]

GI, you could say that again! Your reason is the same reason I haven't brought myself to vote in this poll.

I've been checking the 2010 Draft that Dirtbag posted. I didn't see Jarmon.

[url]http://www.thewarpath.net/nfl-draft-central/30381-looking-ahead-to-2010-draft-depth.html[/url].

Of course all of those players would have been 1st rounders, and Jarmon is a 3rd.

All SEC isn't chopped liver, but is it good for a 3rd? Maybe I'll withhold any judgement until TC and pre-season!

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

I'm just glad they didn't give it up to get Old AS# way pass his prime Bruce Smith (he's a Hall of Famer) again. Youth youth youth for a change mixed in with some age (knowledge)

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;568188]A few thoughts:

1) Orakpo is our starting SLB for the forseeable future. He'll line up at DE no more than 20% of the time.
2) Renaldo Wynn and Alex Buzbee will be unemployed within 2 months.
3) I'm not terribly concerned about losing the 3rd rounder next year. I think Jarmon qualifies as 3rd round talent that we got for a 3rd rounder a year early. If we had wanted to select him in the 3rd round in THIS years draft (had he been eligible), we would have had to trade next years 2nd. Instead, we're geting him for a 3rd rounder a year earlier than we would have otherwise.
4) Why did Cerrato openly pimp this guy to the media last week? I'll tell you why - he wanted fans to get pumped up for this guy, so we would be less angry when we announced we were giving up a 3rd rounder for him.
5) We only have 5 draft picks next year. Most of our division rivals have twice that.
6) If we have a bad season, Zorn, Campbell, and Cerrato will all be gone next year.[/quote]
totally agree

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;568188]
4) Why did Cerrato openly pimp this guy to the media last week? I'll tell you why - he wanted fans to get pumped up for this guy, so we would be less angry when we announced we were giving up a 3rd rounder for him.
[/quote]

Can people please stop saying that "we gave up a draft pick"? We drafted a freaking player. Giving up a draft pick means someone else gets to use it.

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;568188]
5) We only have 5 draft picks next year. Most of our division rivals have twice that.[/quote]

Dallas had a million picks in this past draft, that doesn't make them better. It is how you use your picks. While one pick (#6) was use in an unfortunate mistake, the other pick (#3) was used (not given up) to draft a player.

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;568188]
6) If we have a bad season, Zorn, Campbell, and Cerrato will all be gone next year.[/quote]

Also the sun rises in the East and sets in the West.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=an23dy;568557]
From a Redskin-centric viewpoint.
July 2008 - Get Jason Taylor
April 2009 - No 2nd round draft pick
July 2009 - Get Jeremy Jarmon
[B]April 2010 - No 3rd round pick
[/B]
[/quote]

This is completely wrong, there IS a third round pick in 2010, and we just USED it to pick Jarmon. Geez, it's been said again and again in this thread. We DRAFTED A GUY IN THE THIRD ROUND NEXT YEAR.

[B][U]This is the EXACT same thing as us drafting Jarmon next year. Imagine in the third round 2010 hearing "Redskins select Jarmon, Defensive End from Kentucky." That's EXACTLY what we just did.
[/U][/B]

We did NOT give up anything. To judge this, you merely have to ask -- was he worth the third round pick. From what we heard so far -- he probably is.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=ethat001;568599]To judge this, you merely have to ask -- was he worth the third round pick. From what we heard so far -- he probably is.[/quote]

I disagree.
The only team to consider him a 3rd round pick was the Redskins.
31 other teams agree with me.

Don't be a sucker for Ceratto's post pick spin...that he was a 2nd round grade crap....he has to say that to justify paying more than others.

The rest of the NFL considers him a 4th round pick...we just spent more because of need....something the Skins say they don't do.
Remember...they just pick the "best player available"....considering this was a draft of one....they got him.

I hope I am wrong about this and this guy ends up a starter, I am just on the fence whether we should gamble a 3rd rounder on this particular guy.
The rest of the NFL agrees with me.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=skinsnut;568610]I disagree.
The only team to consider him a 3rd round pick was the Redskins.
31 other teams agree with me.

Don't be a sucker for Ceratto's post pick spin...that he was a 2nd round grade crap....he has to say that to justify paying more than others.

The rest of the NFL considers him a 4th round pick...we just spent more because of need....something the Skins say they don't do.
Remember...they just pick the "best player available"....considering this was a draft of one....they got him.

I hope I am wrong about this and this guy ends up a starter, I am just on the fence whether we should gamble a 3rd rounder on this particular guy.
[B] The rest of the NFL agrees with me.[/B][/quote]

Not necessarily.

We took this player with as late of a pick as we could have used to get him. If we put a fourth round pick in we don't get this player. In essence, the 'Skins gauged correctly what the conventional thinking would be on this player and did just enough to land him. Besides, what is the real difference between the first pick in the fourth round and a mid third-rounder? This move certainly doesn't scream "Holy overpayment, Batman" when you consider how small of a reach it was from the second place bid.

I think the fact that there were so many suitors in the fourth makes Vinny look justified in using a third, not the other way around. If there were only 5th round bids, and Vinny used a third, then you could say that the Redskins badly overpaid and our "GM" would rightfully be the laughingstock of the NFL yet again.

In the end, the rest of the NFL agrees that we paid as little as we could have to land this player.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=TenandSix:Unacceptable;568617]Not necessarily.

We took this player with as late of a pick as we could have used to get him. If we put a fourth round pick in we don't get this player. In essence, the 'Skins gauged correctly what the conventional thinking would be on this player and did just enough to land him. Besides, what is the real difference between the first pick in the fourth round and a mid third-rounder? This move certainly doesn't scream "Holy overpayment, Batman" when you consider how small of a reach it was from the second place bid.

I think the fact that there were so many suitors in the fourth makes Vinny look justified in using a third, not the other way around. If there were only 5th round bids, and Vinny used a third, then you could say that the Redskins badly overpaid and our "GM" would rightfully be the laughingstock of the NFL yet again.

In the end, the rest of the NFL agrees that we paid as little as we could have to land this player.[/quote]

Well said.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=skinsnut;568610]I disagree.
The only team to consider him a 3rd round pick was the Redskins.
31 other teams agree with me.

[B]Don't be a sucker for Ceratto's post pick spin...that he was a 2nd round grade crap....he has to say that to justify paying more than others.[/B]

The rest of the NFL considers him a 4th round pick...we just spent more because of need....something the Skins say they don't do.
Remember...they just pick the "best player available"....considering this was a draft of one....they got him.[/quote]

I have to admit, that thought was in my mind as well when Vinny explained it.. Until then, I just read this article:

[URL="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=4335794"]NFL: The Washington Redskins hope they beat the supplemental draft odds in their selection of Jeremy Jarmon - ESPN[/URL]
[quote]Many scouts agree that Jarmon probably would have been a second-round prospect next April had he played his final season for the Wildcats. He likely will be a situational player this season, learning from fellow rookie Orakpo and veteran ends [URL="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=1033"][COLOR=#225fb2]Phillip Daniels[/COLOR][/URL] and [URL="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=2555"][COLOR=#225fb2]Andre Carter[/COLOR][/URL].[/quote]

This certainly should make many fans including you to feel better.. Beside just like tenandsix:unacceptable explained, it's not llike we OVERpaid for this guy.. Although there's some irony in argument; the article explains history of supplementary drafts, which shows the supplementary draft to might be not good thing..

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=skinsnut;568610]The rest of the NFL considers him a 4th round pick...we just spent more because of need....something the Skins say they don't do.[/quote]

That's not necessarily true. A bid does not always indicate how much the bidder thinks the "product" is worth. For example, suppose you think a house is worth $500,000. You know others are interested in the house, but they're unlikely to bid more than $450,000. Are you going to bid $500,000 for the house, or something like $451,000? You're going to bid $451,000 and come away thinking you "made" $49,000.

Similarly, here, for all we know, the other teams that bid on Jarmon thought he was worth a 2nd round pick, but thought no team would bid a 2nd or 3rd rounder. For all we know, some of those very interested teams wish they had bid a 3rd round pick.

By most accounts, Jarmon graded out as 2nd or 3rd round pick. So, in my view, we didn't necessarily overpay to acquire Jarmon. Did we bid more than the other teams? Sure, but that's always the case with winning bids and it doesn't really tell us whether we got robbed, or made out like bandits.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

I have to agree with the majority. We got a loan for 9 months with 0 interest. There's a chance this guy could have fallen with his Sr. year. There's also a chance he could have skyrocketed to a 1st round pick. No one can say. I just hope he has the motivation and work ethic required for the NFL.

Either way, smart gamble by the front office.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=ethat001;568599]This is completely wrong, there IS a third round pick in 2010, and we just USED it to pick Jarmon. Geez, it's been said again and again in this thread. We DRAFTED A GUY IN THE THIRD ROUND NEXT YEAR.

[B][U]This is the EXACT same thing as us drafting Jarmon next year. Imagine in the third round 2010 hearing "Redskins select Jarmon, Defensive End from Kentucky." That's EXACTLY what we just did.
[/U][/B]

We did NOT give up anything. [B]To judge this, you merely have to ask -- was he worth the third round pick.[/B] From what we heard so far -- he probably is.[/quote]

Direct quote from me at the end of my post that you just replied to, "it all comes down to whether you think the guy is worth a 3rd round pick."
I understand what's happening. There is nothing incorrect about my statement. In April 2010 we will not be making a pick in the 3rd round. It will say selection forfeited to draft Jeremy Jarmon in 2009 NFL supplemental draft.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

I dont really know why everyone is still arguing about this pick. We got a 3rd rounder a year early meaning that he will have one more year of experience by the time next years draft rolls around. I think you people just like to complain about the front office.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=Daseal;568625]I have to agree with the majority. We got a loan for 9 months with 0 interest. There's a chance this guy could have fallen with his Sr. year. There's also a chance he could have skyrocketed to a 1st round pick. No one can say. I just hope he has the motivation and work ethic required for the NFL.

Either way, smart gamble by the front office.[/quote]This, ultimately is true. You just have to judge, based on all the evidence available, which is more likely.

Is it more likely that his Sr. season would have set him up for day one status, or that it would have taken him off the draft radar entirely. We gambled a 3rd round pick on the fact that it is the former, and that we can use this year to develop him as a player.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=WaldSkins;568629]I dont really know why everyone is still arguing about this pick. We got a 3rd rounder a year early meaning that he will have one more year of experience by the time next years draft rolls around. I think you people just like to complain about the front office.[/quote]

Agree 100%


If we hadn't got him the same people would be complaining we need him why didn't they go after him.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=ethat001;568599]This is completely wrong, there IS a third round pick in 2010, and we just USED it to pick Jarmon. Geez, it's been said again and again in this thread. We DRAFTED A GUY IN THE THIRD ROUND NEXT YEAR.

[B][U]This is the EXACT same thing as us drafting Jarmon next year. Imagine in the third round 2010 hearing "Redskins select Jarmon, Defensive End from Kentucky." That's EXACTLY what we just did.
[/U][/B]

We did NOT give up anything. To judge this, you merely have to ask -- was he worth the third round pick. From what we heard so far -- he probably is.[/quote]Well, it's not [I]exactly[/I] the same thing. Jarmon was not in the 2010 draft.

If Jarmon had entered the 2009 draft as a redshirt junior, under his own choice, would we still have traded up into the third round after the Barnes pick to get him? Or would we have rated him more highly on the board than Barnes?

Because there are a bunch of guys that were given second round grades at that point. Barnes had a second round game from this team. There was probably at least one defensive lineman who would have had a higher grade than Jarmon at the pick.

If he had been in the 2009 regular draft, we would have got a much better idea of his value than the fact that a bunch of teams were willing to take 4th round flyers on him. He probably would have been a 4th or a 5th round pick in last year's draft.

Anyway, there's a huge difference between having a second round grade from the Redskins, and having been a likely second round pick. [U]Every pick on the second day is made by a team who thinks they got a steal.[/U]

Anyway, like I said earlier, if we acutally do get a second round pick out of Jarmon, then using a supplemental third on him is a huge steal. But that assessment that Vinny had is a little bit higher than anyone elses assessment. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

It's important to remember that while looking at all the teams that put a claim in the 4th round is one way to judge his value, that still leaves two unanswered questions: 1) how many of those teams were willing to overpay by a round to bolster their defense [B]this[/B] year? and 2) why did no team who won more games than us last year think he was worth a third round claim, if in fact he was a potential second round prospect?

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=skinsnut;568610]I disagree.
The only team to consider him a 3rd round pick was the Redskins.
31 other teams agree with me.

[B]Don't be a sucker for Ceratto's post pick spin[/B]...that he was a 2nd round grade crap....he has to say that to justify paying more than others.

The rest of the NFL considers him a 4th round pick...we just spent more because of need....something the Skins say they don't do.
Remember...they just pick the "best player available"....considering this was a draft of one....they got him.

I hope I am wrong about this and this guy ends up a starter, I am just on the fence whether we should gamble a 3rd rounder on this particular guy.
The rest of the NFL agrees with me.[/quote]

Actually, one thing you can say about vinny's picks is that he isn't scared to go against the grain of what the nfl norm is. I don't think anyone had rinehart or tryon as 3rd & 4th rnd. picks e.g. And this year some observers thought that Glenn in the 5th was a reach. Some thought Colt was a reach even getting drafted.

That said, I don't think Vinny puts a "spin" on it per se, he tells the press that they pick guys because THEY (not other nfl teams) have them rated high.

For better or worse, vinny doesn't seem scared to make picks based on he & his scouts' research, rather than referring to whatever scouts,inc. et al have to say about where a player projects in the draft.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

I can't remember if anyone brought this up in this thread?

Isn't it kind of a strange that Cerrato was the one and only GM to go on record after Jarmon's pro day that included reps from 18 teams to say that he thought he was a real solid prospect.

I wonder what kind of strategy he was using? Was it the tell everyone I like him so they will second guess themselves because most people think I am nuts strategy?

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=wilsowilso;568635]I can't remember if anyone brought this up in this thread?

Isn't it kind of a strange that Cerrato was the one and only GM to go on record after Jarmon's pro day that included reps from 18 teams to say that he thought he was a real solid prospect.

I wonder what kind of strategy he was using? Was it the tell everyone I like him so they will second guess themselves because most people think I am nuts strategy?[/quote]

Vinny Cerrato is just stupid and only in America can a guy like him be in the position he's in. It's not what you know, it's who you know. He should just keep his mouth shut and not say anything. Then he goes on the radio and makes the guy sound like he's the next Reggie White. It's like he always tries to go out of his way to prove his point all the time.

Re: Redskins Select Jarmon in 3rd Round of Supplemental Draft
 

[quote=skinsnut;568610]I disagree.
The only team to consider him a 3rd round pick was the Redskins.
31 other teams agree with me.

[B]Don't be a sucker for Ceratto's post pick spin...that he was a 2nd round grade crap....he has to say that to justify paying more than others[/B].

The rest of the NFL considers him a 4th round pick...we just spent more because of need....something the Skins say they don't do.
Remember...they just pick the "best player available"....considering this was a draft of one....they got him.

I hope I am wrong about this and this guy ends up a starter, I am just on the fence whether we should gamble a 3rd rounder on this particular guy.
The rest of the NFL agrees with me.[/quote]

I don't have a problem giving up the 3rd rounder next year. If they like the guy then so be it. What bothers me is the way Vinny goes about hyping guys up.