Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

OK, here's my list:
#1- Andre Johnson (hands down)
#2- Larry Fitzgerald
#3a- Reggie Wayne
#3b- Randy Moss
#5- Brandon Marshall
#6- Calvin Johson
#7- Vincent Jackson
#8- Roddy White
#9- Marques Colston
#10a- Miles Austin
#10b- Steve Smith
#10c- Michael Crabtree

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;728803]I wouldn't, I guess multiple consecutive 100 catch seasons dont carry much weight as it used to[/quote]When I think of guys who make the most of their opportunities, I think of guys like Vincent Jackson, Reggie Wayne, DeSean Jackson, Randy Moss, and Miles Austin.

When I think of guys who do the least with their opportunities, I think of Brandon Marshall, Santana Moss, and Roy Williams.

Not that those aren't all good players. They are, in their own different ways.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=GTripp0012;728805]When I think of guys who make the most of their opportunities, I think of guys like Vincent Jackson, Reggie Wayne, DeSean Jackson, Randy Moss, and Miles Austin.

When I think of guys who do the least with their opportunities, I think of Brandon Marshall, Santana Moss, and Roy Williams.

Not that those aren't all good players. They are, in their own different ways.[/quote]

You can put Roy Williams in the same group as BM and SM. Also, Jsarno I cant put Miles Austin or Crabtree in that group yet. Where is the love for Anquain Boldin.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=jsarno;728804]OK, here's my list:
#1- Andre Johnson (hands down)
#2- Larry Fitzgerald
#3a- Reggie Wayne
#3b- Randy Moss
#5- Brandon Marshall
#6- Calvin Johson
#7- Vincent Jackson
#8- Roddy White
#9- Marques Colston
#10a- Miles Austin
#10b- Steve Smith
#10c- Michael Crabtree[/quote]

Colston at 9??? Really?? He's not better than Steve Smith or Greg Jennings for that matter who I feel is vastly underrated.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=GTripp0012;728805]When I think of guys who make the most of their opportunities, I think of guys like Vincent Jackson, Reggie Wayne, DeSean Jackson, Randy Moss, and Miles Austin.

[b]When I think of guys who do the least with their opportunities, I think of Brandon Marshall, Santana Moss, and Roy Williams.[/b]

Not that those aren't all good players. They are, in their own different ways.[/quote]

wow...can't believe Brandon Marshall is in the same sentence as Roy Williams. You do realize that Marshall has been in the league for 4 years and 3 out of those 4 years he has surpassed 100 catches right? He has 307 catches his last 3 years! He had 21 catches in a game last year and even when they knew the ball was coming his way, they couldn't stop him. He also had 18 in a game in 08. Plus he's 6'4", 230lbs!!!
Roy Williams had exactly 1 good year. (82 catches in 06) Even in that year, he was eclipsed but Mike Furrey and his 98 catches! Roy Williams was highly touted, but he never was realized potential like Marshall is.
Moss is what he is. We have used him incorrectly. Moss is immensely talented, but to use him as our #1 was and is a mistake. He's a #2 guy, and if we had someone like Marshall on the other side, Moss would explode for close to 100 catches. Just a shame we never had the sense to get that #1 for him to get the pressure off. Moss has done the best he can with what he was given. Just cause we wanted to see more production out of our #1 doesn't mean he should have been relied on in that fashion.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;728808]You can put Roy Williams in the same group as BM and SM. Also, Jsarno I cant put Miles Austin or Crabtree in that group yet. Where is the love for Anquain Boldin.[/quote]But it's the same idea of missed opportunities. I mean Roy Williams has a 1,300 yard season. Moss has a 1,500 yard season. They're both easily as accomplished as Marshall (if a lot older).

But none of them are elite players in the league today, for whatever reason.

Guys like Jackson, Wayne, and Wes Welker are a factor on every play of every game, which is why they are simply a class above the rest.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;728808]You can put Roy Williams in the same group as BM and SM. Also, Jsarno I cant put Miles Austin or Crabtree in that group yet. Where is the love for Anquain Boldin.[/quote]

Boldin is good, but like Housh, he had the benefit of someone else shouldering the load like Fitzgerald. (housh has chad johnson) I don't see Boldin carrying a team like the others.
I am reluctant to put Miles Austin in there too, but every time I watch him, he amazes me. Crabtree is a future pick really...the man is going to show everyone this year, and will be a monster for years to come...mark my words.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;728800]DeSean Jackson is not in the top 5 and neither is Vincent Jackson.

1a) Andre Johnson
1b) Larry Fitzgerald
3) Reggie Wayne
4) Brandon Marshall
5) Randy Moss[/quote]

Exactly my list..then Anthony Armstrong.
God i hope one day i can say that with a straight face

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

No way colston and Crab are top 10. Jennings is 10 for sure, dude is awesome and Id go Brandon Marshall over most of the guys on that list. 3 straight 100 catch seasons ! That's legit

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=jsarno;728794]


I disagree with your list. 1-4 is fine, arguable, but fine...wes Welker is not #5. There is a reason he wasn't anything super special in Miami, he's no #1, he's the best damn compliment wr in the game though.[/quote]

What reason is that? It doesn't matter what he did in Miami. He was an undrafted free agent it's not hard to get overlooked, and even then he had to be doing something right because New England, who puts a high value on draft picks, traded a second round pick to get him. Players don't get 1,300 yards (in 14 games no less) by being average.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;728809]Colston at 9??? Really?? He's not better than Steve Smith or Greg Jennings for that matter who I feel is vastly underrated.[/quote]

Don't be fooled by the Saints offense spreading it around. Colston is immensely talented. at 6'4", 225lbs, he's hard to handle by DB's, and even though the injury bug has hit him hard, he's still managed 3 out of his 4 years in the league having over 1000 yards. He has 33 tds in 46 games started! He's very often forgot about, and he's very underrated.
While you can certainly pose an argument for Smith, and I would not argue back, I do not agree at all about Jennings. While he's good, he's no top 10 talent, possibly not even top 20. In case you didn't notice, Driver had more catches than him last year, and a player that played in all 16 games, yet had only 68 receptions does not deserve a top 10 spot. Last year, Jennings had 2 games with 0 catches, and 5 games with only 1 catch. 10 games with 3 or fewer catches...that's hardly top 10 talent.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;728817]What reason is that? It doesn't matter what he did in Miami. He was an undrafted free agent it's not hard to get overlooked, and even then he had to be doing something right because New England, who puts a high value on draft picks, traded a second round pick to get him. Players don't get 1,300 yards (in 14 games no less) by being average.[/quote]

I never said he was average.
1- He's coming off an injury that is pretty darn massive.
2- He was never the #1 anywhere, on any team.
3- I already said he's the best compliment WR in the game, and I stand by that. What do you think would happen if he became the #1 wr? Think Santana Moss.
He's a very good wr...no doubt...just not a top ten IMO.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;728817]What reason is that? It doesn't matter what he did in Miami. He was an undrafted free agent it's not hard to get overlooked, and even then he had to be doing something right because New England, who puts a high value on draft picks, traded a second round pick to get him. Players don't get 1,300 yards (in 14 games no less) by being average.[/quote]You actually probably could get 1,300 yards being average but playing in the slot where it's tough to cover. But I think I agree with you that very little of what Welker does could be describe as average. I mean, he is the focal point of the offense these days. And he still catches an obscene 70% of passes thrown to him, and he usually converts the first down, no matter where he catches it.

I don't know if Wes Welker is a top ten receiver in the NFL (I suspect he isn't), but he's perfect for his role, and the Pats have shown that they can keep using him as a workhorse and be successful.

Denver tried to do the same thing with Marshall last year. He got 100 catches, but his team lost 8 of their last 10 games and missed the playoffs. Marshall was pretty great in those first six games, but his season was littered with performances like 21 catches against the Colts for under ten yards/catch and two TDs when they are soundly beaten by the Colts.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=jsarno;728819]I never said he was average.
1- He's coming off an injury that is pretty darn massive.
2- He was never the #1 anywhere, on any team.
3- I already said he's the best compliment WR in the game, and I stand by that. What do you think would happen if he became the #1 wr? Think Santana Moss.
He's a very good wr...no doubt...just not a top ten IMO.[/quote]

I never said you said he was average :D. However you have to admit you did kind of imply that label when you made a reference to his Miami days. He's more of a 1a or 1b type guy in my book (think Torry Holt and Issac Bruce during the Greatest Show on Turf or Fitz and Boldin in Arizona). He's now at a point where he could go to another team and easily have a 1,000 yard season now that he has the experience reading defenses and making plays.

As for the torn ACL. He's already shown signs of a full recovery 8 months after the tear. If that doesn't make him top 10 I don't know what will.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;728815]No way colston and Crab are top 10. Jennings is 10 for sure, dude is awesome and Id go Brandon Marshall over most of the guys on that list. 3 straight 100 catch seasons ! That's legit[/quote]

Sure you can make an argument for Crabtree not being there (like I said, it's a future pick) but you can't really argue that Jennings is better. Look at my post about him disappearing, and keep in mind he had hofer Favre throwing at him early in his career, and then #1 ranked fantasy QB Aaron Rodgers last year. Meanwhile, Crabtree had Alex Smith, and Shaun Hill throwing to him. Crabtree only had 0 games of under 3 catches, unlike Jennings who had 6 games of 2 or fewer.
Josh Morgan is no Donald Driver either.

Saying Colston doesn't deserve top ten is another reason he is underrated. You do realize he was the super bowl champs #1 option right?

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;728815]No way colston and Crab are top 10. Jennings is 10 for sure, dude is awesome and Id go Brandon Marshall over most of the guys on that list. 3 straight 100 catch seasons ! That's legit[/quote]


Colston is the real deal. Crabs will be too, just has to "simmer" a bit.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=jsarno;728822]Sure you can make an argument for Crabtree not being there (like I said, it's a future pick) but you can't really argue that Jennings is better. Look at my post about him disappearing, and keep in mind he had hofer Favre throwing at him early in his career, and then #1 ranked fantasy QB Aaron Rodgers last year. Meanwhile, Crabtree had Alex Smith, and Shaun Hill throwing to him. Crabtree only had 0 games of under 3 catches, unlike Jennings who had 6 games of 2 or fewer.
Josh Morgan is no Donald Driver either.

Saying Colston doesn't deserve top ten is another reason he is underrated. You do realize he was the super bowl champs #1 option right?[/quote]

As much as I hate him as a person, Crabtree is poised to be a top 10 guy, maybe even as early as this year. Any guy that can miss camp his rookie year as well as a good chunk of the season, and then go on to gain 600+ yards is a special player.


Also if anyone was wondering, here's Scouts Inc top 10 list.

Wide Receiver - Top 10[LIST=1][*]Andre Johnson - 94[*]Larry Fitzgerald -93[*]Miles Austin - 89[*]Reggie Wayne - 89[*]Randy Moss -89[*]Steve Smith - 89[*]Brandon Marshall - 88[*]Roddy White - 87[*]Wes Welker -87[*]Calvin Johnson - 85[/LIST]

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=GTripp0012;728820]You actually probably could get 1,300 yards being average but playing in the slot where it's tough to cover. But I think I agree with you that very little of what Welker does could be describe as average.[/quote]

The only person that used "average" and "Welker" in the same sentence was dirtbag...no one is saying he is average.

[quote]Denver tried to do the same thing with Marshall last year. He got 100 catches, but his team lost 8 of their last 10 games and missed the playoffs. Marshall was pretty great in those first six games, but his season was littered with performances like 21 catches against the Colts for under ten yards/catch and two TDs when they are soundly beaten by the Colts.[/quote]

That has more to do with Eddie Royal than Brandon Marshall. Royal went from 91 catches to 37, and in his last 4 games had only 6 catches, including only 1 in that indy game. You can not be the only wr on a team or you will be double teamed. Like Moss needs a Welker, Marshall needs a compliment too. That's how the NFL works.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=jsarno;728829]That has more to do with Eddie Royal than Brandon Marshall. Royal went from 91 catches to 37, and in his last 4 games had only 6 catches, including only 1 in that indy game. You can not be the only wr on a team or you will be double teamed. Like Moss needs a Welker, Marshall needs a compliment too. That's how the NFL works.[/quote]Well, teams didn't double team Marshall last year. They couldn't because he played primarily out of the slot. Eddie Royal is going to take over for Marshall this year, and I think will replace is production if not add to it (if he's as good as he showed in 2008, at least). Denver moved Royal to the outside in deference to Marshall, which is why Royal's numbers tanked.

Marshall did just fine in that role: obviously, you can't match up well with that in the slot, but Denver's passing game ranked in the middle of the pack, which is about where Marshall is in terms of starting NFL receivers.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;728821]I never said you said he was average :D. [/quote]
Fair enough.

[quote]However you have to admit you did kind of imply that label when you made a reference to his Miami days.[/quote]

Well, if I did, that certainly wasn't my intent, especially when I said he was the best compliment wr in the game.

[quote]He's more of a 1a or 1b type guy in my book (think Torry Holt and Issac Bruce during the Greatest Show on Turf or Fitz and Boldin in Arizona). He's now at a point where he could go to another team and easily have a 1,000 yard season now that he has the experience reading defenses and making plays. [/quote]

But no way can he go to another team and be their #1 like the others on the list. Any one of the guys I have previously mentioned can be interchangable with any #1 on any team...Welker can not. Don't mistake what I am saying, he's a great talent, and any team would be lucky to have him, but he's not top 10 IMO.

[quote]As for the torn ACL. He's already shown signs of a full recovery 8 months after the tear. If that doesn't make him top 10 I don't know what will.[/quote]

Even the scouts, and Patriots fans are saying he's not 100% but they are surprised at his developement to this point. His recovery is ahead of schedule, but he will not be the force he was til next year. If he is, I will eat my words and gladly put him in the top ten, but all his numbers will go down due to his injury.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

And I agree with Jsarno that Colston is underrated. Think is, I'm not 100% sure he's the best receiver on his team. That might be Meachem. If it is, it's not because Colston is not underated, but because the Saints have two of the best twelve receivers in football.

I do love me some Greg Jennings though.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=GTripp0012;728832]Well, teams didn't double team Marshall last year.[/quote]

I watched almost every Denver game last year, I'm sorry to say that you are incorrect sir. Defenses targeted Marshall, and rightfully so.

[quote]Eddie Royal is going to take over for Marshall this year, and I think will replace is production if not add to it (if he's as good as he showed in 2008, at least). Denver moved Royal to the outside in deference to Marshall, which is why Royal's numbers tanked.[/quote]

Royal's numbers tanked solely because of himself. They moved Royal around all year to try to get him going and nothing worked.
ps- I thought Gaffney was taking over Marshall's role?

[quote]Marshall did just fine in that role: obviously, you can't match up well with that in the slot, but Denver's passing game ranked in the middle of the pack, which is about where Marshall is in terms of starting NFL receivers.[/quote]
Wow...middle of the pack huh? Not even a top 20 or 30? wow. Well, if you rank him that low, there is pretty much no stats or comments that will help change your mind, so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

I will ask this last question, would you want Marshall as a redskin?

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=GTripp0012;728835]And I agree with Jsarno that Colston is underrated. Think is, I'm not 100% sure he's the best receiver on his team. That might be Meachem. If it is, it's not because Colston is not underated, but because the Saints have two of the best twelve receivers in football.

I do love me some Greg Jennings though.[/quote]

Meachem is certainly one to watch and could crack this list next year or the year after. Time will tell.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=jsarno;728813]Boldin is good, but like Housh, he had the benefit of someone else shouldering the load like Fitzgerald. (housh has chad johnson) I don't see Boldin carrying a team like the others.
I am reluctant to put Miles Austin in there too, but every time I watch him, he amazes me. Crabtree is a future pick really...the man is going to show everyone this year, and will be a monster for years to come...mark my words.[/quote]

Boldin was great before Fitz got there my man.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;728840]Boldin was great before Fitz got there my man.[/quote]

Yeah, lets put it this way. Boldin came in as a rookie in Arizona with Jeff Blake as his QB and put up 1,337 yards with 8 TD's after spending his senior year at Florida State playing QB. Talk about overcoming odds.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;728840]Boldin was great before Fitz got there my man.[/quote]

Only 1 year...03. I don't think I need to explain that was 7 years ago. I'm not saying Boldin sucks...just not top 10. Top 20! ;)
Actually top 15 more than likely.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=jsarno;728836]I watched almost every Denver game last year, I'm sorry to say that you are incorrect sir. Defenses targeted Marshall, and rightfully so.



Royal's numbers tanked solely because of himself. They moved Royal around all year to try to get him going and nothing worked.
ps- I thought Gaffney was taking over Marshall's role?


Wow...middle of the pack huh? Not even a top 20 or 30? wow. Well, if you rank him that low, there is pretty much no stats or comments that will help change your mind, so I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

I will ask this last question, would you want Marshall as a redskin?[/quote]Telling me that I'm incorrect or that I misremember or whatever doesn't make me less correct. I was just stating facts, re: the Broncos offense. That's how they played it, straight from both game film (first hand -- what I studied, and second hand -- what others study). It's not a disagreement, if you didn't already know this, you're overselling what you know of last year's Broncos offense.

Clearly though, you've seen Marshall's 12.3 YPC average, and thinking that that makes him the next Terrell Owens (14.9 career, 14.5 SF), or Randy Moss (15.6), or Vincent Jackson (17.2) or Jimmy Smith (14.3) or Greg Jennings (16.1). Maybe some day, he will catch Anquan Boldin (12.8).

Marshall is probably top thirty. At least, statistically he is one of the thirty most explosive receivers in football. He ranked 24th, 42nd, and 30th [URL="http://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/16433/brandon-marshall"]in DYAR the last three years[/URL]. He ranked 14th [URL="http://wp.advancednflstats.com/playerstats.php?pos=WR"]in expected points per play last year[/URL], but that was mostly due to a high # of targets -- he ranked 32nd in the same category per play. He ranked 19th in 2007 and 37th in 2008.

But for a guy who has never ranked in the top ten in any value statistic in any one season of his career, I'm not sure how anyone can put him in their top ten. For a guy who is at the top of his craft in catches, you'd like him to match those catch totals in something more meaningful. But for Marshall, either he's just not being used properly (by two coaches, including our own), or there's just not much else there.

I think I'd rather have Brandon Marshall on this team than Joey Galloway, because he's a better receiver. But I wouldn't ever give Brandon Marshall more than a one year contract: only fools would hitch themselves to that wagon. He's one of the most immature athletes I've ever seen.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=jsarno;728844]Only 1 year...03. I don't think I need to explain that was 7 years ago. I'm not saying Boldin sucks...just not top 10. Top 20! ;)
Actually top 15 more than likely.[/quote]Agree with you on Boldin. And: he has more yards per game, more yards per catch, more catches per attempt, than Marshall, who you have in your top five.

Unless Marshall has vastly improved, Boldin>Marshall. And, again, I agree with you that Boldin probably is (isn't?) a top 15 receiver. They are typematically similar, though.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

We just have to agree to disagree because Boldin > Both Jacksons and Colston, Crabtree and Miles Austin.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

I would not assume that this unnamed team is the Skins. My guess the Vikes. They had a 1YEAR deal in place, that does not sound like the Skins. I would say Vikings trying to give Farve one more weapon to try and make it to the SB this year.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

Unless we just want to have a bunch of quality players to try and resign during the possible up coming lockout.

That would be DM, Jamaal B, and VJ.

That is alot of cake to try and write out in one offseason.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=GTripp0012;728805]When I think of guys who make the most of their opportunities, I think of guys like Vincent Jackson, Reggie Wayne, DeSean Jackson, Randy Moss, and Miles Austin.

When I think of guys who do the least with their opportunities, I think of Brandon Marshall, Santana Moss, and Roy Williams.

Not that those aren't all good players. They are, in their own different ways.[/quote]

Bullpuckey.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

Santana Moss has been the best receiver we could have imagined for what we gave up, to get him. He has great stats and has is a true team player. So bash someone else.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

^ agree 100%! Moss is a beast

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

^ moss is steve smith without the mouth

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=jsarno;728844]Only 1 year...03. I don't think I need to explain that was 7 years ago. I'm not saying Boldin sucks...just not top 10. Top 20! ;)
Actually top 15 more than likely.[/quote]

He did have 100 receptions in 2005 also. Boldin is a legitimate number 1 WR, Not a 2 masking as a 1

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=tc2deuce;728891]^ moss is steve smith without the mouth[/quote]

Moss is good but let's not get carried away here.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=GTripp0012;728848]Telling me that I'm incorrect or that I misremember or whatever doesn't make me less correct. I was just stating facts, re: the Broncos offense. That's how they played it, straight from both game film (first hand -- what I studied, and second hand -- what others study). It's not a disagreement, if you didn't already know this, you're overselling what you know of last year's Broncos offense.

Clearly though, you've seen Marshall's 12.3 YPC average, and thinking that that makes him the next Terrell Owens (14.9 career, 14.5 SF), or Randy Moss (15.6), or Vincent Jackson (17.2) or Jimmy Smith (14.3) or Greg Jennings (16.1). Maybe some day, he will catch Anquan Boldin (12.8).

[B]Marshall is probably top thirty. At least, statistically he is one of the thirty most explosive receivers in football. He ranked 24th, 42nd, and 30th [URL="http://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/16433/brandon-marshall"]in DYAR the last three years[/URL]. He ranked 14th [URL="http://wp.advancednflstats.com/playerstats.php?pos=WR"]in expected points per play last year[/URL], but that was mostly due to a high # of targets -- he ranked 32nd in the same category per play. He ranked 19th in 2007 and 37th in 2008.[/B]

But for a guy who has never ranked in the top ten in any value statistic in any one season of his career, I'm not sure how anyone can put him in their top ten. For a guy who is at the top of his craft in catches, you'd like him to match those catch totals in something more meaningful. [B]But for Marshall, either he's just not being used properly (by two coaches, including our own), or there's just not much else there.[/B]

I think I'd rather have Brandon Marshall on this team than Joey Galloway, because he's a better receiver. But I wouldn't ever give Brandon Marshall more than a one year contract: only fools would hitch themselves to that wagon. He's one of the most immature athletes I've ever seen.[/quote]

Per Football Outsider's [URL="http://www.footballoutsiders.com/info/methods"]website[/URL]:

[quote]DVOA is still far away from the point where we can use it to represent the value of a player separate from the performance of his ten teammates that are also involved in each play. That means that when we say, "Larry Johnson has a DVOA of 27.6%," what we are really saying is "Larry Johnson, playing in the Kansas City offensive system with the Kansas City offensive line blocking for him and Damon Huard selling the fake when necessary, has a DVOA of 27.6%."[/quote]

Case in point, Andre Johnson has had only one season with a top 10 DYAR ranking (#1 in 2008) and with his career average of 13.5 he's no match for Vincent "The Invincible" Jackson.

[quote][/quote]

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

[quote=saden1;728920]Per Football Outsider's [URL="http://www.footballoutsiders.com/info/methods"]website[/URL]:



Case in point, Andre Johnson has had only one season with a top 10 DYAR ranking (#1 in 2008) and with his career average of 13.5 he's no match for Vincent "The Invincible" Jackson.[/quote]Right, and correctly addressed, but that one season in 2008 isn't meaningless. I don't think Johnson is quite as dominant year-to-year as others do, but he was the best receiver in football in 2008, and if I remember correctly, he was pretty highly rated in 2004 as well.

But EVERY year, Johnson rates above Brandon Marshall. This is because he's better in every way, shape, and form. Like Marshall, he sees a crap ton of targets. And he does a lot more with them.

So I don't think he's less great because he sometimes rates lower in some years. I think Marshall is mediocre because he's very consistently in the middle of the pack despite having the most opportunities. There is no longer any question who Brandon Marshall is.

Re: V. Jackson "Prepared to Sit out season"
 

If you want to directly argue that Brandon Marshall is within 1.3 yards per catch of Andre Johnson, who I rated as the second best receiver in football, I think that's defensible. But when you multiply that over an entire season, you're now looking at 160-230 yards difference (and multiple TDs) over the exact same opportunities. That's probably close to a win/year difference between Johnson and Marshall. And only a handful of wide receivers are worth as much as a win per year. Johnson is likely one.

So, I think, is Vincent Jackson. I think that if we added him, you could add up to a prorated win to our prediction if/when we had him.