Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

I'm here speaking on D. Hall, and have no opinion of you what so ever. I hear your opinions about how you feel about D. Hall, and I state my own. That is how forum boards work most of the time. I simply speak on behalf of your posts, and how you present them. I do not break it down and actually construct towards the poster himself.

I disagree with your opinions because you haven't given me a reason to change my mind or undo my thoughts about how I feel about D. Hall, and his place in the Redskins secondary for the present or future.

I didn't think I labeled the thread, "Why I think Gtripp is wrong" I simply wanted the opinion of a large scale Washington fan base, but there has been many posts thinking you are biased towards Hall even before I made this thread. None so vice versa.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Bucket;828991]Because you question the facts that I state about Hall, and shake your head, but bring your own to the table thinking they are better without question. Then get confused when people think you're biased because your only open minded to your own opinions and not anyone elses.[/quote]This is to both you and SmootSmack.

The reason why this position makes no sense to me is that the argument is circular.

Here's my diagram of it.

Stats hate DeAngelo Hall -> Only people who use CB stats are Hall haters -> GTripp likes to use stats -> GTripp is a Hall Hater -> GTripp likes to use stats because of hate for Hall -> Those who agree with GTripp or stats hate Hall -> I appreciate Hall -> The stats GTripp uses are wrong -> GTripp can't see the stats are wrong because he hates Hall.

Circular reasoning is fallacious and can lead to fallacious conclusions.

Not one of the premises above is true, but all are believed to lead to the final conclusion.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Bucket;828991]I would put him top 10 at the moment for Redskin DB greats.[/quote]Not to nitpick, but if you consider Safeties he's got a ton of work to do to get into the Top 10 Redskin DB greats:

D. Green
Champ Bailey
Pat Fischer
Paul Krause
Joe Lavender
Mike Bass
Sammy Baugh (if he's considered a CB and not a S)

Ken Houston, Brig Owens, Sean Taylor, Mark Murphy

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Bucket;828997]I'm here speaking on D. Hall, and have no opinion of you what so ever. I hear your opinions about how you feel about D. Hall, and I state my own. That is how forum boards work most of the time. I simply speak on behalf of your posts, and how you present them. I do not break it down and actually construct towards the poster himself.

I disagree with your opinions because you haven't given me a reason to change my mind or undo my thoughts about how I feel about D. Hall, and his place in the Redskins secondary for the present or future.

I didn't think I labeled the thread, "Why I think Gtripp is wrong" I simply wanted the opinion of a large scale Washington fan base, but there has been many posts thinking you are biased towards Hall even before I made this thread. None so vice versa.[/quote]None? I think you're just uninformed. I have a pro-Hall post or two in this thread. Again, you stated you didn't go back and read because you could just assume what my position is.

The fact that my posts which support the premise that Hall isn't very good outnumber the ones that suggest we're lucky to have him is NOT indicative of bias. It's you're attempt to prove otherwise that has drawn my ire.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;829000]This is to both you and SmootSmack.

The reason why this position makes no sense to me is that the argument is circular.

Here's my diagram of it.

Stats hate DeAngelo Hall -> Only people who use CB stats are Hall haters -> GTripp likes to use stats -> GTripp is a Hall Hater -> GTripp likes to use stats because of hate for Hall -> Those who agree with GTripp or stats hate Hall -> I appreciate Hall -> The stats GTripp uses are wrong -> GTripp can't see the stats are wrong because he hates Hall.

Circular reasoning is fallacious and can lead to fallacious conclusions.

Not one of the premises above is true, but all are believed to lead to the final conclusion.[/quote]

Like I said, and you must of missed it because of your blind hatred.

Stats are misleading. We had the 31st ranked defense, and even though our secondary was weak because we lost Landry, and Moore was our starting FS. Our Dline, LB's were more to blame and it's not only my opinion.

Defense works together, and a great CB can be molded from a great defense. There is many reasons why some players leave systems on both offense and defense and don't excel in other programs.

So comparing a CB stats for yards giving up etc when the defense was NEVER off the field for most games, and we had one of the worse pass rushes in the NFL is kinda like saying Tom Brady sucked in the Super Bowl against the Giants, and it had nothing to do with his Oline breaking down.

Or Randy Moss playing for the Raiders, and then coming to the Pats to have one of his best seasons in his career?

But we are biased because of your "stats":doh:

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;829001]Not to nitpick, but if you consider Safeties he's got a ton of work to do to get into the Top 10 Redskin DB greats:

D. Green
Champ Bailey
Pat Fischer
Paul Krause
Joe Lavender
Mike Bass
Sammy Baugh (if he's considered a CB and not a S)

Ken Houston, Brig Owens, Sean Taylor, Mark Murphy[/quote]


It was a typo on my part, and I mean CB'.s Yes, Hall has a long way to go if you include in ALL DB'S. I agree...

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;829002]None? I think you're just uninformed. I have a pro-Hall post or two in this thread. Again, you stated you didn't go back and read because you could just assume what my position is.

The fact that my posts which support the premise that Hall isn't very good [B][U]outnumber the ones [/U]that suggest we're lucky to have him is NOT indicative of bias. It's you're attempt to prove otherwise that has drawn my ire[/B].[/quote]

Like I said.. This is your opinion, and it will continue to be no matter how hard you attempt to jam them down someones throat.. I think we are lucky to have him. Our starting secondary could be Westbrook, and Wilson,

Not that I have anything against Westbrook, but I don't think he'll ever form into a starting 1/2 CB, but then again, I could be wrong, and it's my opinion.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Bucket;829003]Like I said, and you must of missed it because of your blind hatred.

Stats are misleading. We had the 31st ranked defense, and even though our secondary was weak because we lost Landry, and Moore was our starting FS. Our Dline, LB's were more to blame and it's not only my opinion.

Defense works together, and a great CB can be molded from a great defense. There is many reasons why some players leave systems on both offense and defense and don't excel in other programs.

So comparing a CB stats for yards giving up etc when the defense was NEVER off the field for most games, and we had one of the worse pass rushes in the NFL is kinda like saying Tom Brady sucked in the Super Bowl against the Giants, and it had nothing to do with his Oline breaking down.

Or Randy Moss playing for the Raiders, and then coming to the Pats to have one of his best seasons in his career?

But we are biased because of your "stats":doh:[/quote]Stop. Please stop. Let's recap:

[quote=GTripp0012;828818]By the way, the "accepted" yardage conversion for an interception, if you assume 100% credit to the interceptor, is 45 yards. You could argue that either way, but that's the number that people who work with stats seem to be comfortable with. No, it's not set in stone.

5 x 45 = 225 yards created by DeAngelo Hall through his interceptions in 2010. If you want to add in his two TDs at 20 yards per event, we're up to 265 yards of value "created" by DeAngelo Hall in 2010. Eyeballing that, this is somewhere between half a win and a win added to the 2010 Redskins thanks to positive plays by DeAngelo Hall.

This all assumes that Jay Cutler and Johnnie Knox/Devin Hester were at zero percent fault for those four INTs in Chicago.[/quote]

[quote=12thMan;828821]My thoughts exactly. For every stat someone points to that says Hall is a bum, there's another one that would suggest otherwise. It is what it is.[/quote]

GTripp's Response: that's not true.

[quote=Bucket;828824]How many times are WR's or QB's not at fault during a INT? See? You're arguement is totally biased on the fact that all your negative approach toward D. Hall is based on your OWN belief that he's not a good CB for the Redskins.

In that total yardage allowed by Hall.. [B]How many times did Moore, or Doughty/Horton blow coverage and not help over the top? How many times did the QB have more then 3 seconds to throw, or were we in Zone coverage? Blitz? [/B]

[B][U][I][SIZE="3"]It's all biased statistical information[/SIZE][/I][/U][/B] and not even halfway accurate to what D. Hall actually does on the field. He produces plays..

2 defensive TD's, Pro Bowl, Pro Bowl MVP, 16 pass deflection, 6 INT's, and 95 tackles. All on the 31st ranked defense in the NFL

Sorry but there is not much more to argue about that.[/quote]

What GTripp thought as soon as you posted this: that's a mostly silly response that addresses none of what I actually said. He called the numbers biased. The guy who thinks I have a bias thinks the numbers themselves have a bias His only point here that amounts to anything about trolling is that Hall's teammates were lackluster (bolded). Does such trolling really deserve a legit response?

What I actually replied with:

[quote=GTripp0012;828826]LOL at pro bowl MVP. Quit with the biased crap. Stick to facts.[/quote]

Now here was the crux of the argument, the knockout punch if you will:

[quote=GTripp0012;828825]The 31st total ranking is entirely based on total yards against. DeAngelo Hall gives up more yards against than any other corner. The correlation between the Redskins hemmorhaging yards and Hall's performance is a perfect one.

No one thinks Hall is the only problem, that's just you twisting the argument I'm making. But no one player is responsible for lowing his teams defensive ranking than DeAngelo Hall, at least according to game charting numbers. Lets stick only to the facts and leave emotions out of it.

Remember, the NFL yards rankings dont include INTs or touchdowns, so if you think those are valuable things then Hall simply doesn't play on the second worst defense in the league. His teammates have their issues, but they're much better than bucket is giving them credit for.[/quote]

The responses all said pretty much the same thing:

[quote=Chico23231;828835]CB play was the least responsible area for that entire unit's 31st ranking. Saftey, LB and a league worst DL far more responsible for that ranking. Maybe if Fat Alberta woulda acted like a man maybe the DL woulda been better.[/quote]

[quote=12thMan;828828]But see you laugh at the facts and stats Bucket produced, while at the same time holding up your own "facts" and stats to prove otherwise.

Is the real argument you're right and we're wrong?[/quote]

[quote=SmootSmack;828968]How can you post this and not think people would say you're hating?[/quote]

This thread has so much god d- noise in it, and for my part in that, I apologize. Nothing here is remotely evidence of hating.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

[quote=Bucket;829005]Like I said.. This is your opinion, and it will continue to be no matter how hard you attempt to jam them down someones throat.. I think we are lucky to have him. Our starting secondary could be Westbrook, and Wilson,

Not that I have anything against Westbrook, but I don't think he'll ever form into a starting 1/2 CB, but then again, I could be wrong, and it's my opinion.[/quote]This was never, ever part of my argument.

And for the record, I agree. But hey, we'd have an 100% chance of saving some money.

Re: Where does D. Hall rate as a CB for the Redskins all time?
 

By the way Tripp, I confused Ruhskin with Bucket for a second regarding stats. Still, my opinion about your argument hasn't changed one bit.

A wise man told me today (to paraphrase) "sometimes you have to just have the courtesy to say 'shut the **** up' and move on"

So...shut the **** up. Thread locked