Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

It's probably not just you...but it's not me.

Anyway, here's a question for you. Brady Quinn? Yes? No?

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=GMScud;859564][B]I think our history with coaches under Snyder is the biggest factor in what has people apprehensive about cutting bait with Shanahan after just two seasons. It's the fear of "more of the same," even if letting Shanny walk is in fact the best call (I don't know if it is, but I'm starting to lean that way).[/B]

Any other team with a reasonable history as far as head coaches go... Shanny is on the hot seat big time. But we've done it the same way for 10+ years. Maybe we'll be patient to a fault this time around. Either way, we can't get out of our own way.[/quote]Bolded: totally agree, which is what is causing some to miss what would otherwise appear very clear, IMO. Ask a non-Redskins fan who isn't scarred by Snyder being a megalomanic owner whether Shanahan can win a super bowl in the next three years, and you'll be laughed out of the room. Shanahan has been more senile and paranoid than cunning and clever. But if you've been with the team for a while: no Shanahan means Snyder gets to pick the next guy and...why would that be better?

My assertion is not to convince the world that the next head coach is going to be better than Shanahan -- he might not be -- but that's the thing that's holding me to this franchise, so I'm going to believe it (even irrationally, if necessary).

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;859567]It's probably not just you...but it's not me.

Anyway, here's a question for you. Brady Quinn? Yes? No?[/quote]Gun to my head? No.

Without the gun? A question: What's the cost? More Shanahan? No way. In a fresh start, new system? I can see the upside.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=GMScud;859544]I don't think Shanny has done a poor job with the draft selections he's made. Kerrigan, Jenkins, and Hankerson all seem like they'll be good players in this league. Perry Riley looks good, too. And Maurice Hurt is able to crack the lineup despite being a 7th rounder. He's brought in some decent talent.

However, I think his decisions at the QB position have been nothing short of disastrous, and he should bear the full blame. Also, with regard to the QB position and the draft, I think the net negative of both not selecting a QB (not even a developmental later round pick) and trading high picks for McNabb is a terrible gaffe.[/quote]

Believe me I'm not happy that the team didn't draft a QB last year, but they didn't. Was it disasterous? I don't think so. We could look at this several different ways;

ie: they don't draft Kerrigan and opponants double Orakpo slowing our pass rush giving QB's all day to throw and pick us apart.

ie: the team drafts a QB but virtually no decent WR's to catch the ball and the ones we have run wrong routes... wait thats part of our problem now WR wise.

I don't think there was one QB in the bunch during MS's first draft that was really worth running out and taking or that would have been available when the Skins picked. Last year clearly Newton has turned out to be pretty good and I didn't think he would, other then that the others have been pretty quiet besides Dalton whom I wanted the team to pick.

Luck will be out of reach for the Skins, more then likely the Colts will take him unless something drastically happens while he's in college or the team simply doesn't think he will work out in their system. Word on the street is Miami's owner is infatuated with Luck, so if the Colts don't take him I'm pretty sure Miami will. Our best bet is to look at the rest and look at taking the most accurate WR available, hopefully he's mobile and can throw a deep ball. Mobility is a moot point though if KS is going to call plays that keep the QB in the pocket. So accuracy and deep ball is a must.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;859567]It's probably not just you...but it's not me.

Anyway, here's a question for you. Brady Quinn? Yes? No?[/quote]Quinn, no. Clausen for a late 5th or less, yes.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;859540]I think the only difference between you and I is that I think the 2012 draft is too critical to leave to an administration that is just going to get whacked at midseason next year for lack of results. If a change is needed, we should make it with the intention of getting the right people in here to draft the next QB. I can't justify letting the Shanahan's pick a quarterback in the first round in a desperate attempt to salvage the mess they created.[/quote]

Well lets look at it reasonably....

If MS takes a QB this year and bombs would DS fire him? I personally doubt it because MS still has 2 yrs left on his contract, but I've been wrong before.

But lets say for arguements sake the team does draft a QB and the team still does bad (most likely due to a lack of quality OL or backups, and decent WR's), and MS is fired..... more then likely the team would have to be just as bad or worse and not showing improvement so the team goes 4-12 last yr, this year 3-13, either another 3-13 or worse which I'd guess would give the Skins another top 5 pick for whoever DS desides to bring in as HC and giving said HC an opportunity to draft his QB for his system.

The good point in all this..... we either start getting better next year or MS is fired and we end up with 2 young hopefully talented QB's to develope for the future.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;859540]I think the only difference between you and I is that I think the 2012 draft is too critical to leave to an administration that is just going to get whacked at midseason next year for lack of results. If a change is needed, we should make it with the intention of getting the right people in here to draft the next QB. I can't justify letting the Shanahan's pick a quarterback in the first round in a desperate attempt to salvage the mess they created.[/quote]

Interesting perspective and probably...highly accurate.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SBXVII;859573]The good point in all this..... we either start getting better next year or MS is fired and we end up with 2 young hopefully talented QB's to develope for the future.[/quote]Outside of Gibbs, we've been in this crappy position twice within the last 10 yrs.(the ol ball coach and Zorn). F-ing enough is enough already.

p.s. As someone else mentioned about Zorn, his 2 yr. record was 12-20, same as the ol' ball coach. Unless MS can rally the team and win 3 more games this year.....he is who his record says he is. This abysmal performance, and worst of all no upward trend, is all on him.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SouperMeister;859561]Yes, I believe that starting in 2011, more emphasis is being placed on the draft. In 2010, we had fewer choices, which limited how much could be accomplished after trading the 2nd round pick for McNabb. As for the Haynesworth mess, Snyder and Cerrato tried to get cute with the cap by pushing Al's huge $20M bonus to the uncapped 2010 year. I sense that Shanny tried to make it work by communicating with Haynesworth before that bonus was paid. In hindsight, Shanny probably should have cut Al sooner when it was apparent that he wasn't getting with the program. Regarding the DBs, Snyder and Cerrato tied Shanny's hands by giving Hall a big contract after less than half a season here. Rogers is clearly the better cover corner, and is finally holding onto the ball in SF, the change of scenery has been good for him. Landry should be re-signed, but not for Ed Reed money. We have decent tools defensively, but the offense is bereft, starting with the O-line and QB. It's time to stop neglecting those positions, and I believe they will be addressed early in the draft.[/quote]I'm not going to disagree with you, rather, I'm going to write the opposite narrative.

The 2011 draft was a diversion from the norm because the Redskins had a strategy going into draft day, and it got blown up when Jake Locker got taken 8th overall by the Titans and then Robert Quinn got taken two picks ahead of where the Redskins traded down to, leaving Kerrigan as the best of the rest. The only pick they made who they had targeted was Jenkins. Hankerson fell, so they took a flyer on him even though they were lukewarm on him. The trade up for Helu made more sense because of the weakness at RB rather than because of their grade on a player.

The Redskins are always looking to put the best possible team on the field every week. That's why they re-signed Moss, upgraded the DL even though there weren't ideal options available, tried to fix that secondary with a vet like Atogwe. They've failed at winning because they struggle to evaluate talent.

The 2010 offseason was a good example of what the Redskins' top execs wanted to accomplish here. They didn't stick to it too long when it obviously wasn't working, but McNabb was supposed to be a savior, the defense was supposed to be better than this, particularly in the secondary, and they've never been hesitant to scapegoat players unceremoniously when their best laid plans don't work. In 2011, the Redskins tried something else because they had beaten themselves the prior year, not because they really believed in those methods.

****

I don't believe everything I just wrote, but I thought it would be good to see the perspective that there is no trend towards rebuilding.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

No to Quinn and Clausen

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;859554]I think I considered that at the time of the hire, and, well, I didn't think that was realistic then and I don't think it's realistic now.

But I think even if that was the original plan, I don't see how that's different from any other type of 5 year contract for the head coach. Sure, the original expectation is that you have a long term solution, but if you don't, then you go in another direction when the current one isn't feasible anymore.

I think if it was going to happen here for Mike or Kyle, we'd have some sort of positive identity 25 games in. [B]Because the only identity that Mike has left is baffling press conferences[/B], I think the premise that the clock is ticking is inevitable.

It wouldn't be the worst thing to give a third year to this group, but I don't know why you would if the feeling is that we're just delaying the ultimate failure of this group. There has to be feelings of optimism to justify continuing on this path. Right now? The optimism is coming from the fact that the QB class is so strong in next years draft. That doesn't change if Mike Shanahan resigns. Nothing gets worse.[/quote]

I'm left scratching my head but my best guess as to why this is happening is because MS is doing is best to emulate Belichick. He doesn't want to give too much information about players, is aloof about who's starting, calls players out in an attempt to not call players out, is very vague about injuries in order to keep other teams guessing. But I don't think MS is as good as Belichick.

The only other option is to think MS is really not a good speaker, and has lost his mind and possibly doesn't know what he's doing. Unless he's got alzheimers which would answer why his statement are different form his sons at times and why he says some of the things he does then I have to go with the fact he's trying to with hold, hide, or keep from being made public information that we fans and the opponant really don't need to know.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SBXVII;859573]The good point in all this..... we either start getting better next year or MS is fired and we end up with 2 young hopefully talented QB's to develope for the future.[/quote]And if the new hire doesn't like one of the QBs and thinks of the other as a good backup?

Then...it's 2013 and the Redskins are starting from scratch on a six year playoff drought. And probably a year or two to get back to the playoffs, and that assumes the new hire is a rarely competent one.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SBXVII;859581]I'm left scratching my head but my best guess as to why this is happening is because MS is doing is best to emulate Belichick.[/quote]I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's not it.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;859578]Outside of Gibbs, we've been in this crappy position twice within the last 10 yrs.(the ol ball coach and Zorn). F-ing enough is enough already.

p.s. As someone else mentioned about Zorn, his 2 yr. record was 12-20, same as the ol' ball coach. Unless MS can rally the team and win 3 more games this year.....he is who his record says he is. This abysmal performance, and worst of all no upward trend, is all on him.[/quote]

I don't know what to say....

It's blatently obvious DS won't be able to please all fans at all times. But I was pretty sure most fans after the Zorn failure pretty much wanted a proven HC (and MS is) and wanted "consistancy". Simply throwing everything away yet again after 2yrs (this offseason) or after 3yrs is not, I would guess to be, "consistancy." We need to keep a coaching staff longer then 2-3 yrs, allow them to get the types of players for their system on the team, and keep a QB in the same scheme longer then 2 yrs. Why is P.Manning, E.Manning, Breese, Brady, etc. etc. so succesfull? because they stayed in the same system for more then 2 yrs.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SBXVII;859586]I don't know what to say....

It's blatently obvious DS won't be able to please all fans at all times. But I was pretty sure most fans after the Zorn failure pretty much wanted a proven HC (and MS is) and wanted "consistancy". Simply throwing everything away yet again after 2yrs (this offseason) or after 3yrs is not, I would guess to be, "consistancy." We need to keep a coaching staff longer then 2-3 yrs, allow them to get the types of players for their system on the team, and keep a QB in the same scheme longer then 2 yrs. Why is P.Manning, E.Manning, Breese, Brady, etc. etc. so succesfull? because they stayed in the same system for more then 2 yrs.[/quote]I agreed with the MS hire. I'm not calling for his head....yet. If we're in the same boat this time next year and no significant philisophical changes are made then yes I'll be screaming for him to be gone too.

Agree we need consistency, but we don't need to be consistently bad. The reason the QBs you mention above are successful is because they're damn good QBs, not because of their "systems". The HC's of their teams have been intelligent in the way they scheme around their talents. Any of these guys would be successful in any system. We don't have a franchise QB and there's no guarantee we'll get one this off-season.

If you've got a fridge full of chicken and a pantry full of noodles, you don't make steak & potatoes....you make chicken soup.

Edit: I'll add this, I love my son with all my heart, I've coached him since he was young. I'd love nothing better than for him to be an OC while I was HC and leave a HC position and legacy for him to step into/continue....however parental feelings can cloud judgement. I wouldn't put him & I in the situation that MS & KS are in here, because when things weren't going right and changes needed to be made it would be ugly for us both.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;859555]I sorta understand what you are trying to say, but the flaw in it is the fact that shanahan isn't a lame duck coach. Fact is these two drafts appear to have as many players of promise as all of VCs combined.

You have to give Shanahan the opportunity to bring a young QB in for the purpose of this effort. Short of picking a major bust, our draft position and the quality of qbs coming out ought to be enough to give the next coach (ugh) a start if the worst case happens and the shanahans are gone after year 3.

I doubt they will be though.[/quote]The 2011 draft looks particularly good right now, and did at the time, but VC had a couple of good drafts that he either led or was heavily involved in: 2004, 2005, and I thought 2009 was pretty good at the time, though if Barnes continues to fail, only Orakpo is left from that class.

I can't agree that we have to make a questionable long term decision out of a sense of loyalty to a poor contract signed in 2010. If Shanahan is going to coach this team in 2012, he needs to be the best guy for the rebuilding process. I can't see how this is the conclusion after the last offseason and what it has turned into. Again, that last part is just my opinion, but I don't feel like I'm stretching to get there.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SBXVII;859581]I'm left scratching my head but my best guess as to why this is happening is because MS is doing is best to emulate Belichick. He doesn't want to give too much information about players, is aloof about who's starting, calls players out in an attempt to not call players out, is very vague about injuries in order to keep other teams guessing. But I don't think MS is as good as Belichick.

The only other option is to think MS is really not a good speaker, and has lost his mind and possibly doesn't know what he's doing. Unless he's got alzheimers which would answer why his statement are different form his sons at times and why he says some of the things he does then I have to go with the fact he's trying to with hold, hide, or keep from being made public information that we fans and the opponant really don't need to know.[/quote]Every coach says coachspeak. Mike Shanahan sometimes cannot help himself "revealing" something, like that whole cardiovascular endurance quote.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;859583]And if the new hire doesn't like one of the QBs and thinks of the other as a good backup?

Then...it's 2013 and the Redskins are starting from scratch on a six year playoff drought. And probably a year or two to get back to the playoffs, and that assumes the new hire is a rarely competent one.[/quote]

I'm not sure how old you are or how long you've been a fan, I'm not questioning your fandom, all I'm saying is "WE" all have been through the Norv years of getting close and yet.... just not making it, Robiski, Schottenheimer (whom should have been given longer then 1 yr), Spurrier's short service, Gibbs2, Zorn, and now Shanahan. Basically the last 12 yrs being the worst as far as ups and downs, high expectations crushed...... Cerrato,.... so after all this BS WE all have been through is it really hard to just give the same HC longer then 2 yrs?

don't bring up Gibbs2 cause I totally believe Cerrato soured, sabotaged ...whatever the hole coaching staff and made it difficult to accomplish anything. Zorn is a prime example.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

I've gathered from this crowdsourcing exercise that the prevailing opinion on Shanahan is that two years of failure isn't enough evidence to overturn the decision to bring him on as head coach + personnel guy.

I haven't heard anyone defend the Redskins as being on the right track.

So basically this is the coaching equivalent of the minutes during a challenge in the NFL where everyone is pretty certain the call on the field wasn't right, but we have to determine whether or not the visual evidence is indisputable. I propose that indisputable evidence is not necessary to make the best possible decision for the game going forward. I also realize I am the minority opinion on that one.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SBXVII;859593]I'm not sure how old you are or how long you've been a fan, I'm not questioning your fandom, all I'm saying is "WE" all have been through the Norv years of getting close and yet.... just not making it, Robiski, Schottenheimer (whom should have been given longer then 1 yr), Spurrier's short service, Gibbs2, Zorn, and now Shanahan. Basically the last 12 yrs being the worst as far as ups and downs, high expectations crushed...... Cerrato,.... so after all this BS WE all have been through is it really hard to just give the same HC longer then 2 yrs?

don't bring up Gibbs2 cause I totally believe Cerrato soured, sabotaged ...whatever the hole coaching staff and made it difficult to accomplish anything. Zorn is a prime example.[/quote]I wouldn't say I've "been through Norv" because I was more apathetic to the Redskins than die-hard in that era.

I'm going to ignore your pleas and bring up Gibbs 2.0 anyway.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;859595]I wouldn't say I've "been through Norv" because I was more apathetic to the Redskins than die-hard in that era.

I'm going to ignore your pleas and bring up Gibbs 2.0 anyway.[/quote]

In all fairness Tripp, you weren't apathetic, you were a toddler. I was is in high school at the time. A mess indeed.

EDIT: by "a mess indeed" I meant the Norv era, not me, lol. Although comparatively, Norv looks pretty darn good compared to the last several years.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=GMScud;859596]In all fairness Tripp, you weren't apathetic, you were a toddler. I was is in high school at the time. A mess indeed.[/quote]I was both.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;859587]I agreed with the MS hire. I'm not calling for his head....yet. If we're in the same boat this time next year and no significant philisophical changes are made then yes I'll be screaming for him to be gone too.

Agree we need consistency, but we don't need to be consistently bad. The reason the QBs you mention above are successful is because they're damn good QBs, not because of their "systems". The HC's of their teams have been intelligent in the way they scheme around their talents. Any of these guys would be successful in any system. We don't have a franchise QB and there's no guarantee we'll get one this off-season.

If you've got a fridge full of chicken and a pantry full of noodles, you don't make steak & potatoes....you make chicken soup.[/quote]

Totally agree with you. But let me aske you then will any talented QB like Luck if the team was able to even reach to get him play well in this system next year or is there more fundamental changes across the board needed? or will MS/KS have to look for a cookie cutter QB for their system because not just any QB will work in their system? Clearly they can't just plug in any QB as we've seen Grossman and Beck are not working out and McNabb failed in the system also. You could argue that Grossman/Beck are just bad QB's, and McNabb was unwilling to change, but is it something else? I think you eluded to it... the coaching staff is not designing plays around the talents of the QB under center. I think we all know this.

So what has to change if we are in the same position next year at this time? KS fired? MS fired?

Listening to the radio today an ex player for Seattle was asked if this is the same system he played against when he played MS's Bronco's and the ex player said no. Basically he said the players are not playing like a MS team, mentioned the OL not blocking well and not seeing much cut blocking that MS likes to use. Which made me wonder..... is the OL coach not coaching like the OL coach did while MS was in Denver? If I recall our OL coach was not doing very well in San Fran either.... he probably was going to get fired.

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;859594]I've gathered from this crowdsourcing exercise that the prevailing opinion on Shanahan is that two years of failure isn't enough evidence to overturn the decision to bring him on as head coach + personnel guy.

I haven't heard anyone defend the Redskins as being on the right track.

So basically this is the coaching equivalent of the minutes during a challenge in the NFL where everyone is pretty certain the call on the field wasn't right, but we have to determine whether or not the visual evidence is indisputable. I propose that indisputable evidence is not necessary to make the best possible decision for the game going forward. I also realize I am the minority opinion on that one.[/QUOTE]

I'm not going to lie, I'm not going to make the argument because debating you can be quite frankly exhausting and a fruitless exercise. You can make strong points, but I'm just not interested, not now at least, in the next 10 pages here being a 15 paragraph per post back and forth between two people. I'd rather just wait and see what happens.

All that said, I don't think you let Shanahan go but I could see other coaching moves, including Kyle. What happens now in Houston could have a major impact on our staff next year

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;859602]I'm not going to lie, I'm not going to make the argument because debating you can be quite frankly exhausting and a fruitless exercise. You can make strong points, but I'm just not interested, not now at least, in the next 10 pages here being a 15 paragraph per post back and forth between two people. I'd rather just wait and see what happens.

All that said, I don't think you let Shanahan go but I could see other coaching moves, including Kyle. What happens now in Houston could have a major impact on our staff next year[/quote]Yeah, I can be an ass like that. Though, I like to flatter myself and think that the reason I can write so much is because at rare times, I can be right and you can be wrong.

I'm still looking forward to next year, all things considered.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;859594]I've gathered from this crowdsourcing exercise that the prevailing opinion on Shanahan is that two years of failure isn't enough evidence to overturn the decision to bring him on as head coach + personnel guy.

[B]I haven't heard anyone defend the Redskins as being on the right track.[/B]

So basically this is the coaching equivalent of the minutes during a challenge in the NFL where everyone is pretty certain the call on the field wasn't right, but we have to determine whether or not the visual evidence is indisputable. I propose that indisputable evidence is not necessary to make the best possible decision for the game going forward. I also realize I am the minority opinion on that one.[/quote]

Well its kinda difficult to do, but it can be done. They now have several RB's who should be able to get the job done as long as they can stay healthy, A LT who is doing a pretty good job in only is 2nd year, Hankerson seems promising, the DL is a lot better then last yr, we actually have a pass rush now, the LB core seems a lot better. Now injuries aside we definitly need quality backups, beef up our DB/CB position, definitly need a FS, and a QB.

It's hard to notice any improvement when most of your starters are injured. The bigger question is why the injuries? everyone trying to do too much? freak accidents? lack of prepardness? because we just can't expect all these injures every year.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SBXVII;859599]Totally agree with you. But let me aske you then will any talented QB like Luck if the team was able to even reach to get him play well in this system next year or is there more fundamental changes across the board needed? [/quote]I think Luck & RG3 would succeed. I haven't done a bunch of checking into the other QBs coming out so I can't give an informed opinion on them. I don't like the KS system, just take a look at his time in HOU vs. what they're doing now offensively, due to a committment to the run game. Keep in mind A. Johnson has been injured this year too. As others have mentioned, KS can draw up route combos etc., but his playcalling, team specific gameplanning, and certainly emphasis on the run are questionable at best.

[quote]So what has to change if we are in the same position next year at this time? KS fired? MS fired?[/quote]Whole staff gone. Bring in SS33 as team president, I'll save Snyder a ton of money and wouldn't do any worse for sure.

[quote]Listening to the radio today an ex player for Seattle was asked if this is the same system he played against when he played MS's Bronco's and the ex player said no. Basically he said the players are not playing like a MS team, mentioned the OL not blocking well and not seeing much cut blocking that MS likes to use. Which made me wonder..... is the OL coach not coaching like the OL coach did while MS was in Denver? If I recall our OL coach was not doing very well in San Fran either.... he probably was going to get fired.[/quote]Exactly right, we aren't running MS's system, KS is in control of the offense, just look at our run/pass numbers. I saw a couple of cuts early in the season and Bowen mentioned that cutting was a big part of the scheme....but I haven't seen much cutting which is a staple of the ZBS. Again this all falls on MS, if the system isn't effective or being run the way he wants, it's his responsibility to "coach up" the coaches or make changes.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=GMScud;859596]In all fairness Tripp, you weren't apathetic, you were a toddler. I was is in high school at the time. A mess indeed.

EDIT: by "a mess indeed" I meant the Norv era, not me, lol. Although comparatively, Norv looks pretty darn good compared to the last several years.[/quote]

LOL, how I remember fans calling for Norv's head. He just couldn't get over the hump. Still can't but at this point I'd take a HC that can get my team into the play offs on a regular basis vs. not making the play offs because atleast the team has a winning record. lol. but I do remember hating Norv. and it seemed he called the same damn play over and over.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;859594]I've gathered from this crowdsourcing exercise that the prevailing opinion on Shanahan is that two years of failure isn't enough evidence to overturn the decision to bring him on as head coach + personnel guy.

I haven't heard anyone defend the Redskins as being on the right track.

So basically this is the coaching equivalent of the minutes during a challenge in the NFL where everyone is pretty certain the call on the field wasn't right, but we have to determine whether or not the visual evidence is indisputable. I propose that indisputable evidence is not necessary to make the best possible decision for the game going forward. I also realize I am the minority opinion on that one.[/quote]
Yes, it is inconclusive about what the next year of Shanahan is going to be like.
But your analogy does not hold. Look at Oakland in 2009. They were horrible. Bad QB, lack of talent everywhere. But the reputed nut Al Davis pulled that team out of being complete ass the next year. Until we see what happens next season, no one knows.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;859602]
All that said, I don't think you let Shanahan go but I could see other coaching moves, including Kyle. [B]What happens now in Houston could have a major impact on our staff next year[/B][/quote]

Why do you say this? are you refering to coaches that might be available? or players that might be available? I guess your refering to the HC getting canned and MS trying to bring him here? but Houston is doing so well.... aren't they?

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SBXVII;859614]Why do you say this? are you refering to coaches that might be available? or players that might be available? I guess your refering to the HC getting canned and MS trying to bring him here? but Houston is doing so well.... aren't they?[/quote]I probably shouldn't speak for SS, but I think he's referring to Houston's success on offense with a committment to the run game being a potential indicment of KS's system/abilities.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;859608]
Exactly right, we aren't running MS's system, KS is in control of the offense, just look at our run/pass numbers. I saw a couple of cuts early in the season and Bowen mentioned that cutting was a big part of the scheme....but I haven't seen much cutting which is a staple of the ZBS. Again this all falls on MS, if the system isn't effective or being run the way he wants, it's his responsibility to "coach up" the coaches or make changes.[/quote]

I just don't think MS is doing much coaching period. Which is why we are not seeing the MS offensive staple. He might have wanted some run scheme's thrown into the mix but I'm guessing it's all KS.

I understand there needs to be a commitment to the run but really are the numbers really all that off? I think whats best is 50/50 run/pass but we tend to be around 60/40 pass/run which I don't think is really all that bad either. I think KS's issue with getting away from the run is it doesn't work once and he shifts to passes. Gibbs was run, run, pass, punt, then come back out and do it again because sooner or later the defense will tire out and by the 4th quarter big runs will be available. KS seems to get frustrated when the OL does not block for the run so he turns to the pass.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

I'm not a fan of KS at all in fact I wish he would be gone asap but that's not happening

[QUOTE=SBXVII;859614]Why do you say this? are you refering to coaches that might be available? or players that might be available? I guess your refering to the HC getting canned and MS trying to bring him here? but Houston is doing so well.... aren't they?[/QUOTE]

Well let me preface by saying I'm not a huge Schaub fan, but if the Texans now falter with him out and miss the playoffs then Kubiak and co are likely gone. So yeah you're going to have coaches available that could shake up this staff. Not least of which is Rick Dennison.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

So I guess we should hope for the Texans to start losing in order to get some position coaches here replaced. Lol.

My main concern is OL coach and MS getting the right coach in for his system. I really wish their old OL coach From Denver who went to the Texans could be healthy and work out their differences and be brought in.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SBXVII;859633]So I guess we should hope for the Texans to start losing in order to get some position coaches here replaced. Lol.

My main concern is OL coach and MS getting the right coach in for his system. I really wish their old OL coach From Denver who went to the Texans could be healthy and work out their differences and be brought in.[/quote]

I think you're thinking of Alex Gibbs, but in the early 2000s Rick Dennison was the OL coach under Mike Shanahan in Denver.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=SBXVII;859586]I don't know what to say....

It's blatently obvious DS won't be able to please all fans at all times. But I was pretty sure most fans after the Zorn failure pretty much wanted a proven HC (and MS is) and wanted "consistancy". Simply throwing everything away yet again after 2yrs (this offseason) or after 3yrs is not, I would guess to be, "consistancy." We need to keep a coaching staff longer then 2-3 yrs, allow them to get the types of players for their system on the team, and keep a QB in the same scheme longer then 2 yrs. Why is P.Manning, E.Manning, Breese, Brady, etc. etc. so succesfull? because they stayed in the same system for more then 2 yrs.[/quote]

Brady won the Super Bowl in his first year as a starter, and Brees was awesome in his first year in New Orleans. Those guys are so successful, because they're really good.

But the Giants were smart for sticking with Coughlin through some tough years (he can thank the Skins for that). It paid off with a Super Bowl. We should ride it out and let this staff play out their contract.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;859539]This is a textbook exercise in excuse making.

When the Lions were 2-10 last year, I don't think a whole lot of people thought that the Lions weren't on the right track. I think Schwartz was starting to get some heat for short term results, but people knew the team was better and they knew that even with the QB out, the Lions were still making positive strides week to week.

I don't know if the Lions are going to make the playoffs in year three, but they already have results. Mike Shanahan has accomplished nothing here in a year and a half. And the idea that Detroit was in better shape three years ago than the Redskins were two years ago is just not accurate.

I think most NFL coaches would be doing a better job here. When you consider just how far the Redskins have fallen short of expectations, I think that's pretty difficult to argue against.[/quote]

And you cannot deny that Schwartz has had more to work with in the form of a top-five, elite WR who was in place before he got there -- Shanahan didn't. Schwartz has more drafts and more high draft picks -- Shanahan hasn't. Schwartz has had three years to re-build his team -- Shanahan has had one and a half years. It's a complete fallacy to say that Shanahan has had the same tools and the same time that Jim Schwartz has had to rebuild their respective teams.

It is not difficult in the least to make the case that Detroit was on the right track with an emphasis on the draft, a competent general manager who manuevered to get high selections in the drafts to give Jim Schwartz a chance. Shanahan inherited a team that was built with aging, expensive free agents or outright castoffs that other teams had set out on the street corner.

You call it excuse-making, I call it laying out the facts.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;859594]I've gathered from this crowdsourcing exercise that the prevailing opinion on Shanahan is that two years of failure isn't enough evidence to overturn the decision to bring him on as head coach + personnel guy.

I haven't heard anyone defend the Redskins as being on the right track.

So basically this is the coaching equivalent of the minutes during a challenge in the NFL where everyone is pretty certain the call on the field wasn't right, but we have to determine whether or not the visual evidence is indisputable. I propose that indisputable evidence is not necessary to make the best possible decision for the game going forward. I also realize I am the minority opinion on that one.[/quote]

Tripp, I think that your analogy to a challenge is a good one.

But I can't go to your dark side. Although I opposed the MS hire, I think we patiently have to let its process run its course. I can't say that your argument against this strategy is wrong. But it might be and I think we already bought a ticket to see it through to even an ugly end.

If you are right, we need to start a new coach search now, and this also scares me. I don't know that I trust Snyder to hire the right guy. So please tell me: who would Snyder hire as a coach to replace MS and turn things around?

Please notice that the question is not which coach you want. The question is which coach would Snyder realistically hire.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Dolphins)
 

The major mistake that Shanny & Allen made was the McNabb trade. I can't help but think that move was made in part to show the owner that they were trying to win asap (not saying Snyder was "meddling" by any means).

Aside from that move, I give high marks to the personel moves of this regime. We can all point out the many names that came to camp, e.g. W. Parker, L. Johnson, D. Stallworth, but before you criticize those moves, realize they were low cost, low risk. I wanted a QB in last year's draft, but this year's class is looking good & I respect that Shanny didn't like any of the prospects from last draft.

That 3-1 start at the least showed that the team could win when healthy, albeit v. lesser teams for the most part. It raised expectations, but injuries reveal depth or lack thereof. This team is so far away from having quality depth. I don't think you can criticize them too much for that. It will take time, but we've already seen a commitment to the draft, something lacking for years here.