Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=skinsfan69;891542]He's saying that cause he has to. He knows he's in hot water and the league's going to over react to something that's been going on since football started. Behind closed doors he's probably saying..." what a bunch of bullshit!"[/quote]


...then he should lose his job.

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

From an objective point of view there should be some punishment for the Redskins. Weather that fines, cap space, or draft picks I don't know. At the very least they're getting caught violating the CBA and you can't just punish the Saints and not punish the Redskins.

I mean the Saints should probably get a heftier fine seeing as how they were investigated and asked to stop but

However saying that it happened 5 years ago as an excuse to escape punishment shouldn't really make a difference. If this had happened during the 80's or early 90's then yeah probably to late to hand out a punishment but 5 years isn't really long enough to declare oneself untouchable.

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;891552]From an objective point of view there should be some punishment for the Redskins. Weather that fines, cap space, or draft picks I don't know. At the very least they're getting caught violating the CBA and you can't just punish the Saints and not punish the Redskins.

I mean the Saints should probably get a heftier fine seeing as how they were investigated and asked to stop but

However saying that it happened 5 years ago as an excuse to escape punishment shouldn't really make a difference. If this had happened during the 80's or early 90's then yeah probably to late to hand out a punishment but 5 years isn't really long enough to declare oneself untouchable.[/quote]

Stature of limitations bro. You can't go to every team he ever coached for and punish them. Because Im sure he may have done it elsewhere. Also the difference between what happened on the Redskins and what happened on the Saints is that the Saint's put this pay on their offical books which makes it taxable bonuses therefor illegal.

It one thing if it's a friendly pool between the players and coaches, it another thing when you take booked fine dollars of the team to put it toward as an incentive pay. Not mention the players and staff that may have participated in this in Washington are not here anymore.

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=skinsfan69;891540]I assume that you understand the culture of football. Right? Late hits happen every game. It's the refs opinion whether it's a flag or not. They went after Farve but I don't remember any hits where I was like.."they did that to take him out." These were not bounties where GW was asking his players to try and break a bone.[/quote]

Late hits happen in the natural course of the game, sure, but if there's extra motivation behind those hits in terms of a cash incentive, that's when there's a problem.

You really don't see what's wrong with this picture? You have no problem with bounties??

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

Buffalo is in hot water!

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk;891558]Late hits happen in the natural course of the game, sure, but if there's extra motivation behind those hits in terms of a cash incentive, that's when there's a problem.



You really don't see what's wrong with this picture? You have no problem with bounties??[/QUOTE]





Bounty is the quilted quicker picker upper!!

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=GMScud;891545]Where do you draw the line? From what I understand, the investigation found that bonuses were higher if you knocked an opponent out for the game. With how fast football moves, how can you differentiate trying to knock someone out for a game, season, or career? What, their LB's say, hey, I'm just gonna sprain his knee a little bit? Please man.[/quote]

I haven't seen any Saints players twisting anyone knees. That's silly. First of all if they're caught the penalty is too severe. The fine from the league would surpass any cash from the team's pot. GW isn't going around telling his guys to intentionally hurt a guy and Sharper backed that up. If you knock someone out of the game then so be it....as long as it's a clean hit.

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=skinsfan69;891578]I haven't seen any Saints players twisting anyone knees. That's silly. First of all if they're caught the penalty is too severe. The fine from the league would surpass any cash from the team's pot. [B]GW isn't going around telling his guys to intentionally hurt a guy and Sharper backed that up. If you knock someone out of the game then so be it....as long as it's a clean hit[/B].[/quote]


Are you serious? GW started a bounty program that gave EXTRA rewards for knocking key players out of the game. Is knocking someone out of a game not hurting them?

As long as it's a clean hit, huh? You're high as a kite if you really think GW said, hey, let's knock Kurt Warner's ass out of this ball game, I'll pay you thousands for, but gosh darn it, it better be clean! LOL. Yeah. Unless it's a random accident like, for example, when a guy's foot gets stuck in the turf and his knee gets all twisted up when tackled, guys typically don't get knocked out of a game on a clean hit or form tackle. What does typically knock guys out of games are head shots, giving QB's that extra drive into the turf on a sack, tackling a guy at his knees, etc etc. And hey, if you did that in GW's defense, you get extra cheddar. It might draw a flag, but that dude's hurt, and you get that bounty. That's all good, right? :doh:

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=skinsfan69;891541][/B]

[B]Yes to inflict pain. That's football. Right? Guys on the Saints were not trying to end anyone's career. [/B][/quote]

and you know this because you talked to them, right? each and every one?

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/gregg-williams-redskins-played-an-ugly-game-with-bounties/2012/03/03/gIQAZ6zZpR_story.html]Gregg Williams, Redskins played an ugly game with bounties - The Washington Post[/url]

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=skinsfan69;891578][B]I haven't seen any Saints players twisting anyone knees. That's silly.[/B] First of all if they're caught the penalty is too severe. The fine from the league would surpass any cash from the team's pot. GW isn't going around telling his guys to intentionally hurt a guy and Sharper backed that up. If you knock someone out of the game then so be it....as long as it's a clean hit.[/quote]

Hmm. Not so silly it seems.

[url=http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82535c4d/article/peterson-is-latest-opponent-to-call-out-saints-for-dirty-play]NFL.com news: Peterson is latest opponent to call out Saints for dirty play[/url]

AP: [I]"Guys are going to try to take their shots when we're on the pile and try to twist it up and things like that.[/I] [I]"I felt like it kind of got overboard. I got up and kind of got in his face. Thank God I was able to keep my composure."[/I]


Maybe Darren Sharper shouldn't be believed:


[I]Peterson's accusations come one week after members of the Titans called Saints safety [URL="http://www.nfl.com/players/romanharper/profile?id=HAR293034"]Roman Harper[/URL] dirty for his play during the [URL="http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011121109/2011/REG14/saints@titans"]New Orleans' 22-17 win[/URL]. The NFL fined Harper $15,000 for roughing the passer on a helmet-to-helmet hit in that game and another $7,500 for unnecessary roughness.[/I]

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

This is getting ugly for Williams

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/03/nfl-will-now-investigate-redskins-bounty-program/]NFL will now investigate Redskins bounty program | ProFootballTalk[/url]

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

i feel there is no way gw was the only guy out there running a program like this. and it's not all that surprising to me that something like this would be going on. i'm sure it has gotten toned down in the past few years but it's time for it to be over with at this point in time. we now know way too much about the effects of the game on these players bodies. if the game has to be tweaked for player safety then so be it. i think the nfl's punishment will be a stiff one and should be. if they want to put a stop to this then do it, don't fine players and then let the coaches and staffs get off light.

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=GMScud;891512]He was using the phrase "kill shots." How anyone can be arguing that this is on the up and up is funny and stupid.

He wanted to knock out the top players on the opponents offense, and likened doing so to cutting off the head of a snake. He wanted the opponents best players out of the game, plain and simple. That doesn't mean he didn't reward good play that wasn't dirty- a la Philip Daniels getting $1500 for 4 sacks- but to encourage "kill shots" is deplorable. You're talking about peoples lives and livelihood. Football is dangerous enough without that kind of thuggery.

I mean, Williams himself apologized for it, called it a mistake, and said he knew it was wrong while he was doing it. Like you said, if the main culprit admitted it and said he was wrong, what else is there to defend?

Those of you excusing any of this should just stop. You're lowering the overall IQ of this message board.[/quote]

Okay I completely agree with you that what is going on is wrong. My point is if it is wrong no matter what, intentional injury or not, and this is going on all over the league for a long time, shouldn't every team in the league involved get in trouble, not just the Saints? That's like jailing the ring leader of a gang of murders and letting the rest go free.

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

Bills might be next. At most the Redskins may face a monetary fine, if that. Saints main issue is they knew, were warned, and didn't stop it. Not the case with the Redskins

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=Mattyk;891618]This is getting ugly for Williams

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/03/nfl-will-now-investigate-redskins-bounty-program/]NFL will now investigate Redskins bounty program | ProFootballTalk[/url][/quote]

i feel for him on some level, but he put himself in this situation, and the leauge has almost forced their hand based on the way they have been fining players.

smootsmack do you have any idea of when a punishment will be dealt? and any more details on what it may be?

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

i never broke anyone's bones on purpose. my intent was to make a tackle, that's all. i can sleep at night

after i've screamed myself to sleep

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=Mattyk;891618]This is getting ugly for Williams

[URL="http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/03/nfl-will-now-investigate-redskins-bounty-program/"]NFL will now investigate Redskins bounty program | ProFootballTalk[/URL][/quote]

Yeah, it's becoming less and less likely that he'll be coaching on the Rams' staff week 1.

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=SkinzWin;891624]Okay I completely agree with you that what is going on is wrong. My point is if it is wrong no matter what, intentional injury or not, and this is going on all over the league for a long time, shouldn't every team in the league involved get in trouble, not just the Saints? That's like jailing the ring leader of a gang of murders and letting the rest go free.[/quote]

The Saints are different from the other murderers because they were warned and kept on going. The other murderers are stealthy.

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=SmootSmack;891626]Bills might be next. At most the Redskins may face a monetary fine, if that. Saints main issue is they knew, were warned, and didn't stop it. Not the case with the Redskins[/quote]

Yep kinda thought they would too.. wonder if the titans and jags are lying and denying anything happened when he was with them.


[url=http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8275de8b/article/williams-reportedly-also-ran-bounty-system-as-bills-head-coach]NFL.com news: Williams reportedly also ran 'bounty' system as Bills' head coach[/url]

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=Darrell_Green_28;891644]Yep kinda thought they would too.. wonder if the titans and jags are lying and denying anything happened when he was with them.


[URL="http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8275de8b/article/williams-reportedly-also-ran-bounty-system-as-bills-head-coach"]NFL.com news: Williams reportedly also ran 'bounty' system as Bills' head coach[/URL][/quote]

Yikes!

I think skinsfan69 can pretty much put his argument to bed at this point.
[I]
[URL="http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8275de8b/article/williams-reportedly-also-ran-bounty-system-as-bills-head-coach"]"There was financial compensation," said Wire, who joined the Bills in 2002 and told the newspaper that an environment of "malicious intent" existed when he arrived.[/URL][/I]

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

I wont condone dirty hits but even at high school level ball... we paid very close attention to injury reports.. and I can't think of a single time when we weren't congratulated for knocking someone out of a game... only dirty hits matter to me.. we didn't/don't care whose heads got knocked off by our players unless it was illegal.. if it is a payer only pool.. it is a lot different than something coach run

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

Remember the Jets strength and conditioning coach that tripped the dolphins player? He instructed players to line up on the sidelines to impede other opposing players. Slapped with a $100,000 fine and basically shamed into resigning.

I feel like GW's situation is way worse than that. How does he even keep a job at this point?

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=SmootSmack;891626]Bills might be next. At most the Redskins may face a monetary fine, if that. Saints main issue is they knew, were warned, and didn't stop it. Not the case with the Redskins[/quote]


SS,how are you so sure ?I ask becuase having been in many a locker room coachs and owners have snitchs,maybe it's an equipment guy or a ball boy or an assistant trying to move up the ladder but min the head coach had to have known.

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

I think that the idea of the bounty program is deplorable and action must be taken to stop this from ever happening again. This starts with punishing the person/organizations involved. I still have this feeling we are on a slippery slope now.

It appears the bounty program got into high gear during the Saints run in the playoffs when people are already playing as hard as they can. That is a point when people are so hyped up they shouldn't have any incentive to hit another player harder than they already do. There is no way that can go unpunished. With that said, I'm trying to get a handle on how bad it really made things in the general course of the regular season (I'm not advocating that it should be allowed then either, just trying to establish the severity of the "crime"). It is coming out that this is a widespread action that happens throughout the NFL and I think there is a tendency when these things happen to adopt a mob mentality and start over vilifying the initially identified perpetrator. I can see how this could be common in defensive locker rooms through the NFL. I can also see how this could have started as something smaller for Williams and then blew up and got out of control with the Saints.

As an example, I always loved the way Sean Taylor went out and hit people. I never really thought of his play as dirty. Heck, I thought of it as the picture of what physical defense should look like... and he, according to other players, was taking home the bounty proceeds most of the time. I know most here on the board have the same opinion of his play (or at least many did back then).

I guess what I'm wondering is if people here on this board thought of the Redskins defense as "dirty" during Williams tenure ? If not, which teams did you/do you think of being dirty and what might you think is their incentive to play that way?

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

ProFootballTalk (@ProFootballTalk)
3/4/12 7:07 AM
Report: Bills had bounty system under Gregg Williams wp.me/p14QSB-1qTg


Sent from my iPad

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

USA TODAY Top News (@USATODAY)
3/4/12 6:02 AM
Report: Saints penalty by March 26 usat.ly/xkzFo9


Sent from my iPad

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=Giantone;891659]SS,how are you so sure ?I ask becuase having been in many a locker room coachs and owners have snitchs,maybe it's an equipment guy or a ball boy or an assistant trying to move up the ladder but min the head coach had to have known.[/quote]

I don't really understand your question

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=SmootSmack;891668]I don't really understand your question[/quote]


Ok, you said that you think it was only Williams in DC and no one else knew about it and while I am an admitted fan of Joe Gibbs I'm just asking why you think that noone else in the Skins organization knew this was going on,maybe not Gibbs then VC did,no way can you keep this quiet on a team with 53+ people.

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=Giantone;891676]Ok, you said that you think it was only Williams in DC and no one else knew about it and while I am an admitted fan of Joe Gibbs I'm just asking why you think that noone else in the Skins organization knew this was going on,maybe not Gibbs then VC did,no way can you keep this quiet on a team with 53+ people.[/quote]

I don't think that's what I said. What I said was Williams kept a lot of things from Gibbs (and they didn't have the best relationship) so it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't know. And it's not hard to keep things quiet. Teams form cliques all the time, offense vs. defense, linemen vs skill players, receivers vs running backs and so on.

There's an email paper trail all the way up to Sean Peyton in New Orleans, no evidence the same exists for the Redskins

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=GMScud;891603]Are you serious? GW started a bounty program that gave EXTRA rewards for knocking key players out of the game. Is knocking someone out of a game not hurting them?

As long as it's a clean hit, huh? You're high as a kite if you really think GW said, hey, let's knock Kurt Warner's ass out of this ball game, I'll pay you thousands for, but gosh darn it, it better be clean! LOL. Yeah. Unless it's a random accident like, for example, when a guy's foot gets stuck in the turf and his knee gets all twisted up when tackled, guys typically don't get knocked out of a game on a clean hit or form tackle. What does typically knock guys out of games are head shots, giving QB's that extra drive into the turf on a sack, tackling a guy at his knees, etc etc. And hey, if you did that in GW's defense, you get extra cheddar. It might draw a flag, but that dude's hurt, and you get that bounty. That's all good, right? :doh:[/quote]

Listen to Sharper's comments. We'll agree to disagree.

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

So the NFL is now opened an investigation into the Skins.


Does the fact that this involves multiple teams, but mostly under the direction of 1 coach mean that the punishment will be more on Williams(fines or suspensions) or still team based(fines and draft picks)?

People are expecting a Spygate-like punishment. If the Skins get fined the 2013 1st round draft pick, you can forget getting RG3. If the Skins quickly make the trade, before the punishment, the NFL may take the 2014 1st round pick. This means no 1st rounder 2 years in a row, plus and more picks we would give to the Rams.

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=Hijinx;891702]So the NFL is now opened an investigation into the Skins.


Does the fact that this involves multiple teams, but mostly under the direction of 1 coach mean that the punishment will be more on Williams(fines or suspensions) or still team based(fines and draft picks)?

People are expecting a Spygate-like punishment. If the Skins get fined the 2013 1st round draft pick, you can forget getting RG3. If the Skins quickly make the trade, before the punishment, the NFL may take the 2014 1st round pick. This means no 1st rounder 2 years in a row, plus and more picks we would give to the Rams.[/quote]

This thing with Gregg Williams operating a bounty mission while in Washington was two head coaches and three defensive coordinators ago. Why would the Redskins, who are now operating from under an entirely different coaching regime be punished now for draft picks? That would unjust for Roger Goddell to hand out such a punishment. Mike Shanahan and Jim Haslett have nothing to do with that because they weren't coaching the Redskins from 2004-2007. If Joe Gibbs was still the coach now, I'd say the NFL commissioner would have reason to discipline the Redskins. Williams most recent team, the New Orleans Saints, may very well receive swift punishment namely because Sean Payton is still their head coach.

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

Skins aren't going to lose a pick, especially not a first rounder. There's no proof that the team knew about this, unlike the Saints.

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;891706]This thing with Gregg Williams operating a bounty mission while in Washington was two head coaches and three defensive coordinators ago. Why would the Redskins, who are now operating from under an entirely different coaching regime be punished now for draft picks? That would unjust for Roger Goddell to hand out such a punishment. Mike Shanahan and Jim Haslett have nothing to do with that because they weren't coaching the Redskins from 2004-2007. If Joe Gibbs was still the coach now, I'd say the NFL commissioner would have reason to discipline the Redskins. Williams most recent team, the New Orleans Saints, may very well receive swift punishment namely because Sean Payton is still their head coach.[/quote]

The most damning thing for Payton and the Saints is they knew this was going on, and covered it up and lied to the league about it.

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

We're not going to lose any draft picks. I expect a fine, somewhere in the 100k-500k range, and that'll be it. How are they going to punish the current modern day Redskins for something that happened 5 years ago? That's why there's a statute of limitations. A fine serves its purpose, we still get punished, but the real punishment will go to the Saints and probably Gregg Williams.

There's a difference between what we did and what they did. Obviously the program was similar, but the difference is our head coach had no knowledge (and there's no evidence that proves that he did know about it) and the fact that Payton and the FO in Naw'leans was warned and still continued it. That and the fact that they are still in Naw'leans is the reason there will be fines, suspensions, and loss of draft picks. I expect Gregg Williams to be suspende and/or banned from the league, I don't believe he's the only defensive coach in the league who was doing this but he's the sacrificial lamb in this case. And so be it.

There's a whole paper trail incriminating guys like Payton and Loomis in NO. Even GW has come out and admitted it. The Bills will likely get fined as well, but again the Bills and Redskins fall into the same category here. The Saints will be the ones that get hit hard. I'm not worried about this affecting our draft at all, tbh.

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=mooby;891726]We're not going to lose any draft picks. I expect a fine, somewhere in the 100k-500k range, and that'll be it. How are they going to punish the current modern day Redskins for something that happened 5 years ago? That's why there's a statute of limitations. A fine serves its purpose, we still get punished, but the real punishment will go to the Saints and probably Gregg Williams.

There's a difference between what we did and what they did. Obviously the program was similar, but the difference is our head coach had no knowledge (and there's no evidence that proves that he did know about it) and the fact that Payton and the FO in Naw'leans was warned and still continued it. That and the fact that they are still in Naw'leans is the reason there will be fines, suspensions, and loss of draft picks. I expect Gregg Williams to be suspende and/or banned from the league, I don't believe he's the only defensive coach in the league who was doing this but he's the sacrificial lamb in this case. And so be it.

There's a whole paper trail incriminating guys like Payton and Loomis in NO. Even GW has come out and admitted it. The Bills will likely get fined as well, but again the Bills and Redskins fall into the same category here. The Saints will be the ones that get hit hard. I'm not worried about this affecting our draft at all, tbh.[/quote]

You honestly think Williams is going to be banned? If he is that's utterly ridiculous. 4 game suspension seems to be fair. I wouldn't expect anything to happen to us or Buffalo.

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=skinsfan69;891690]Listen to Sharper's comments. We'll agree to disagree.[/quote]

Did you bother to read my links about malicious intent? They were flat out trying to hurt guys. So you can disagree with the facts, that's fine.

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=skinsfan69;891727]You honestly think Williams is going to be banned? If he is that's utterly ridiculous. 4 game suspension seems to be fair. I wouldn't expect anything to happen to us or Buffalo.[/quote]

I think a 1 year ban is in order. With everything the NFL preaches these days about player safety, anything less than dropping the hammer on GW/Saints would be so hypocritical.

Re: New Orleans Saints/Washington Redskins: Bounty Hunters
 

[quote=mooby;891726]We're not going to lose any draft picks. I expect a fine, somewhere in the 100k-500k range, and that'll be it. How are they going to punish the current modern day Redskins for something that happened 5 years ago? That's why there's a statute of limitations.
.[/quote]

In the NFL,where does this "statute of Limitations"exist?