Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Chico23231;904688]...considering he's packing a gun like a damn coward.[/quote]

Why would you say using technology is cowardice?

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;904692]Why would you say using technology is cowardice?[/quote]

because he is neighborhood watch. you watch and call police if there is a problem. you dont fight people and shoot them. Zim holds zero authority over anybody

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Chico23231;904689]I can walk the street with a gun harrassing people? Ummm no[/quote]

Define "harrasing":

Asking questions, without showing the gun or indicating you are am armed?

Making accusations about my right to be there without threatening me with physical harm, showing the gun or indicating that you are am armed?

Without showing the weapon or giving me knowledge that you have a weapon, following me at a reasonable distance and not physically interfering with my ability to walk to my intended destination?

Without showing the weapon or giving me knowledge that you have a weapon, following closely and obviously on a public street. Running when I run, walking when I walk but never physically hindering my ability to go where I choose?

As soon as you start waving the gun or incorporating it into the "harrassment", then I would agree you got problems - at that point you are threatening life and limb. Again, [I]there is no evidence that Zimmerman did this.[/I] He may have been an ass to Martin, but, that doesn't entitle Martin to attack him as Zimmerman alleges and for which [I]there is no evidence to contradict.[/I]

You don't like someone verbally harrassing you or following you on public property - call the police and ignore. Short of a credible threat of physical harm, such "harrassment" does not entitle you to use physical force against the harraser.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Joe when im following Zimmerman around with a gun and he tells me to stop, Im just gonna use the "tough shit" defense. Can I retain you?

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

That doesn't answer my question. Why does carrying a gun (using technology) make him (or anyone) a coward?

You'll find Zimmerman [B][U]DID[/U][/B] call 911.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;904702]That doesn't answer my question. Why does carrying a gun (using technology) make him (or anyone) a coward?

You'll find Zimmerman [B][U]DID[/U][/B] call 911.[/quote]

statement applied directly Zim in his situation. Apparently he is a great neighbor where everyone knows him, likes him yada yada. If you are such a person, then why is he so afraid? Because he is a coward. Also a bully, also a criminal with a history of violence...

But Rat, I dont think your a coward if you carry a gun. Its a right by every American, even if you have a criminal, violent past or you have a history of mental illness.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Here is the puzzling thing. If there is a witness that can collaborate that Martin was beating Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk, wouldn't that mean they were also witness to the shooting? Also, did that witness just sit there and do nothing? I'm amazed how so few people can act, yet they cry out if people don't help them out.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Chico23231;904688]Zimmerman was clearly in the wrong and Martin did not deserved to be killed. Gotta be a law that was broken somewhere.[/quote]


You sound like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton back when the Duke LaCrosse players were being accused of rape. They stated similar things and even offered to pay this woman's tuition without knowing the full details. Little did they know, they were all being lied to by the woman they were defending.


You don't know the details, and neither does anybody outside the investigation. I say we let this play out and have all the facts come out before we start proclaiming somebody innocent or guilty.

I'm quite positive we have a "equal force" type of defense laws here in NC. If a person comes at you with bare hands, a gun isn't equal force. However, somebody slamming your head into a sidewalk would be considered deadly force. I'm more interested in hearing the witnesses.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Chico23231;904688]its not emotional but[B] certainly disagrees with interpretation of law[/B]. But by your assessment you support law that say you can kill a child if you fear for his your life after chasing down, after harrassing him. Which is fine. Wasnt Zimmerman told by someone not to go after him...blotchy on that. And i guess people who disagree with that interpretation are a lynch mob, which is common but expected. [/quote]

It also assumes facts not proven, facts in dispute, and facts relating to Zimmerman's and Martin's thought processes. You say things like "chasing him down" as if it undisputed that Zimmerman was trying to catch and tackle the Martin rather than make sure he know where Martin was when the police arrived. Maybe Zimmerman was trying to "chase him down" as you say - I don't think it's shown by the known facts but possible. If true and Zimmerman initiated the physical confrontation, then - yup - he would be liable for murder.

Would your opinion change, however, if Martin saw Zimmerman following him, lay in wait for Zimmerman to pass, then sucker punched Zimmerman first and attempted to bash Zimmerman's skull on the sidewalk? Not saying this happened just asking if, under those facts, you think Zimmerman would be the guilty party.

A dispatcher said, don't follow and Zimmerman did. Bad judgment no doubt, but not illegal. Perhaps, just perhaps Zimmerman had seen one too many break-ins in his neighborhood (there had been eleven in the last month) and too many slow police responses so he just wanted to be sure he know where Martin was going. He was legally allowed to do that as long as he didn't threaten Martin with physical harm.

[quote=Chico23231;904688]Zimmerman is responsible for the child's death. And Martin was harrassed by an unknown person to him not of any authority but some joe on the street. Who knows what Zim said to him, but i guess he can say anything he wants to him considering he's packing a gun like a damn coward.[/quote]

He can "say anything he wants to" so long as he didn't threaten physical harm with the weapon - please show me one piece of evidence that Zimmerman's gun even made an appearance before the gun shot. One statement from any witness that Zimmerman threatened physical harm to Martin. I have not seen it. Please show me something that would indicate it is more than speculation or more emotionally charged rhetoric on your part. Quite simply, it's just as easy to speculate from the facts known or disputed that Martin was responsible for causing the situation to esculate.

Sorry, I just keep coming back to the facts.

[quote=Chico23231;904688]Zimmerman was clearly in the wrong and Martin did not deserved to be killed. Gotta be a law that was broken somewhere.[/quote]

Zimmerman [I]may[/I] have been wrong. Martin did not deserve to die. [I]If[/I] Martin was the initial aggressor, [I]if[/I] Zimmerman was truly acting iin self-defense, and [I]if[/I] Martin was bashing Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk, I simply disagree with your assertion that Zimmerman was at fault.

You assume it was not self-defense based on your personal resolution of facts that I assert are disputed or not proven. Fair enough. I simply say, it may well be as you say, but the facts are in dispute and you are operating on a lot of speculation. I don't want to put [I]anyone[/I] in jail based on speculation.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Chico23231;904700]Joe when im following Zimmerman around with a gun and he tells me to stop, Im just gonna use the "tough shit" defense. Can I retain you?[/quote]

So long as you don't threaten him with physical harm, use the gun as an obvious intimidation factor, physically assault him or otherwise place him in fear of his life or limb. Sure - if he initiates the physical assault and you are injured, I'll take a piece of that action. Hell, I'll sue the crap out of him for you.

Take his picture. Make sure you have a permit, [EDIT: PRIOR TO HIM ASSAULTING YOU,] don't use or otherwise brandish the gun in any way. Also, be sure to document everything because, in MD and VA, unlike Florida, the allegation of self-defense will not prevent you from being arrested.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Chico23231;904709]statement applied directly Zim in his situation. Apparently he is a great neighbor where everyone knows him, likes him yada yada. [B]If you are such a person, then why is he so afraid? Because he is a coward.[/B] Also a bully, also a criminal with a history of violence...[/quote]

and this is not rank speculation in the least.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=NC_Skins;904710]Here is the puzzling thing.[B] If there is a witness that can collaborate that Martin was beating Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk, wouldn't that mean they were also witness to the shooting?[/B] Also, did that witness just sit there and do nothing? I'm amazed how so few people can act, yet they cry out if people don't help them out.[/quote]

Well maybe the guy looked out his window, saw the beating going on, he looks away to find his phone (or perhaps walks/runs to it), and the shot is fired.

It seems to me that lots of different people seeing the altercation at different times from different perspectives. All reasonable reactions - rather than stand and watch, they find their phones and call the police. Once the shot is fired, they stay indoors and keep their heads down. Pretty much what I would do.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Chico23231;904709]Its a right by every American, even if you have a criminal, violent past or you have a history of mental illness.[/quote]

You can't own a firearm if you have a criminal history or a history of mental illness.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

legally speaking?

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=NC_Skins;904710]Here is the puzzling thing. If there is a witness that can collaborate that Martin was beating Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk, wouldn't that mean they were also witness to the shooting? Also, did that witness just sit there and do nothing? I'm amazed how so few people can act, yet they cry out if people don't help them out.[/quote]

The witness after seeing the man on top of Zim. ran in to call 911 and that's when the shot was fired.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;904725]You can't own a firearm if you have a criminal history or a history of mental illness.[/quote]

Tell that to the VT shooter.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

After this I think I'm going to buy a gun. I rather be an alive coward then a dead hero.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;904725]You can't own a firearm if you have a criminal history or a history of mental illness.[/quote]

well there you go...we are safe then *sigh* [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seung-Hui_Cho]Seung-Hui Cho - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Chico23231;904734]well there you go...we are safe then *sigh* [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seung-Hui_Cho"]Seung-Hui Cho - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/URL][/quote]

See my above post we must thank the same.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=RedskinRat;904640]Posted by mlmpetert yesterday at 03-27-2012, 11:35 AM but thanks for the reminder.[/quote]

You can see how much attention I've been paying to this thread

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Chico23231;904734]well there you go...we are safe then *sigh* [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seung-Hui_Cho"]Seung-Hui Cho - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/URL][/quote]

Actually the issue in his case was that his doctor or who ever never reported his case to get him on the list of people who cannot buy guns. When the back ground check was done his name came up clear.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=NC_Skins;904710]Here is the puzzling thing. If there is a witness that can collaborate that Martin was beating Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk, wouldn't that mean they were also witness to the shooting? Also, did that witness just sit there and do nothing? I'm amazed how so few people can act, yet they cry out if people don't help them out.[/quote]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Someone posted or linked something a little back that sounded like one of the witnesses called 911 when hearing/seeing Zimmerman screaming for help. Maybe this witness was a kid, small female, old person, handicapped or just too much of a coward because of all the guns he owns. Maybe he did attempt to help. We just dont know. But like JoeRedskins is saying; based off of the facts we can go by and law this case adheres to, it appears, at this time, Zimmerman did not commit a crime. [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Tragically a happy looking teenager with the rest of his life in front of him was shot and killed right after talking to his girlfriend after picking up some candy and a iced tea from a store during halftime of a b-ball game. Its easy for all of us to identify with this kid, and I can understand why people want vengeance on Zimmerman even if its without justification. [/FONT][/COLOR]

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=firstdown;904732]After this I think I'm going to buy a gun. I rather be an alive coward then a dead hero.[/quote]

well im sure your neighbors will appreciate you roaming the streets of your neighborhood at night with a gun stopping children walking up the street to get a snack. you are a hero

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;904720]and this is not rank speculation in the least.[/quote]

well apparently he needed a gun he was soooo afraid.


"oh these teenagers are so dangerous these days with there skittles, ice teas, cell phones....i better get a gun. Ill piss myself if i have to have a conversation with one"

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Chico23231;904742]well im sure your neighbors will appreciate you roaming the streets of your neighborhood at night with a gun stopping children walking up the street to get a snack. you are a hero[/quote]

<point_laugh>

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=NC_Skins;904712]You sound like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton back when the Duke LaCrosse players were being accused of rape. They stated similar things and even offered to pay this woman's tuition without knowing the full details. Little did they know, they were all being lied to by the woman they were defending.


You don't know the details, and neither does anybody outside the investigation. I say we let this play out and have all the facts come out before we start proclaiming somebody innocent or guilty.

I'm quite positive we have a "equal force" type of defense laws here in NC. If a person comes at you with bare hands, a gun isn't equal force. However, somebody slamming your head into a sidewalk would be considered deadly force. I'm more interested in hearing the witnesses.[/quote]


Duke lacross vs Shooting death of Martin...ummmm not close comparison. Yeah I appreciate the Sharpton, Jackson insult.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Chico23231;904743]well apparently he needed a gun he was soooo afraid.


"oh these teenagers are so dangerous these days with there skittles, ice teas, cell phones....i better get a gun. Ill piss myself if i have to have a conversation with one"[/quote]

So we've abandoned any pretence of logic, reason or rational argument?

Fair enough. <taps out>

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=Chico23231;904742]well im sure your neighbors will appreciate you roaming the streets of your neighborhood at night with a gun stopping children walking up the street to get a snack. you are a hero[/quote]

To be honest if my neighborhood was having crime issues and I was on watch I would def. think of carrying a gun.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

I wonder why Trayvon called his GF and not 911?

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

Hey Mods, we need to go to 5 stars for the rating on this thread, it's the best ever!

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]For those who keep trying to politicalize this (not saying anyone here is), the story keeps getting worse and worse for them. [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Not only does Zimmerman have to be a White-Hispanic, from a multiracial family, with Black family members, but he and his wife also have to tutor 2 young kids that are Black, and he also has a friend who is Black willing to publically support. Now, to make matters even worse, it turns out the SOB is a registered Democrat!!!! The media better think of something quick because they are running out of angles. [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][url=http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/320318/20120327/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-democrat-hispanic-shooting.htm]Voting Form Shows George Zimmerman Is A Registered Democrat, Confounding Message Pushed By Left - International Business Times[/url][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR]

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;904747]So we've abandoned any pretence of logic, reason or rational argument?

Fair enough. <taps out>[/quote]

there is no arguement. You've made your point about the law, I get it. I dont agree with it and understand what your saying. I think laws were broken and lines were crossed. Im not changing my mind. I think there will be charges brought and rightfully so. There is speculation on both sides, sure. Mob mentality sure, cliche as ever. Zimmerman shoulda never messed with the kid period. You can't have people walking around with guns accusing people of wrong doing based on speculation, call the cops. He had no authority to do that.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[QUOTE=Chico23231;904753]there is no arguement. You've made your point about the law, I get it. I dont agree with it and understand what your saying. I think laws were broken and lines were crossed. Im not changing my mind. I think there will be charges brought and rightfully so. There is speculation on both sides, sure. Mob mentality sure, cliche as ever. [B]Zimmerman shoulda never messed with the kid period.[/B] You can't have people walking around with guns accusing people of wrong doing based on speculation, call the cops. He had no authority to do that.[/QUOTE]


But see this is my point... I haven't seen the proof that Zimmerman did anything but follow Martin around. I will tell you, I have done that too in my neighborhood.

The individuals I have followed have, on occasion, asked why I was following them. In those cases I have told them - I don't recognize them and I saw them looking in my neighbors cars and testing doors. I also tell them I have called the police and take their photo. Am I "harrasing" them? Am I "messing with them"? If one of them chooses to assault me or grab my phone is it my fault?

At some point, either Zimmerman or Martin started the verbal confrontation which apparently escalated. You assume it Zimmerman b/c he had a gun and was part of a neighborhood watch. Fair enough. You don't want to change your mind? Fine, not asking you to do so.

Just asking you to open it.

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin;904757]But see this is my point... I haven't seen the proof that Zimmerman did anything but follow Martin around. I will tell you, I have done that too in my neighborhood.

The individuals I have followed have, on occasion, asked why I was following them. In those cases I have told them - I don't recognize them and I saw them looking in my neighbors cars and testing doors. I also tell them I have called the police and take their photo. Am I "harrasing" them? Am I "messing with them"? If one of them chooses to assault me or grab my phone is it my fault?

At some point, either Zimmerman or Martin started the verbal confrontation which apparently escalated. You assume it Zimmerman b/c he had a gun and was part of a neighborhood watch. Fair enough. You don't want to change your mind? Fine, not asking you to do so.

Just asking you to open it.[/QUOTE]

Your lucky You haven't been shot

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;904773]Your lucky You haven't been shot[/quote]

Trust me, I am conscience of that. I have only done this in broad daylight when I know other neighbors are around. I purposely speak very loud, keep my distance, make it clear I am unarmed and am as polite as I can be. I also don't follow guys (yes, it's always guys doing this) wearing clothing that could easily conceal a gun. If someone reaches for something, I am jumping behind the nearest parked car.

At the same time, it's my neighborhood. I will not simply go into hiding and hope others will protect us - that's not the man I am nor the man I want my son to grow into.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;904757]But see this is my point... I haven't seen the proof that Zimmerman did anything but follow Martin around. I will tell you, I have done that too in my neighborhood.

The individuals I have followed have, on occasion, asked why I was following them. In those cases I have told them - I don't recognize them and I saw them looking in my neighbors cars and testing doors. I also tell them I have called the police and take their photo. Am I "harrasing" them? Am I "messing with them"? If one of them chooses to assault me or grab my phone is it my fault?

At some point, either Zimmerman or Martin started the verbal confrontation which apparently escalated. You assume it Zimmerman b/c he had a gun and was part of a neighborhood watch. Fair enough. You don't want to change your mind? Fine, not asking you to do so.

[B]Just asking you to open it[/B].[/quote]

I gotcha, I keep an open mind too. But just do me that solid and wear your hoodie to court or your office this friday. We doing that here.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

I wear my hoodie all the time friend. A black one with the 70th anniversary "Redskins" logo emblazoned across the front.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;904777]Trust me, I am conscience of that. [B]I have only done this in broad daylight when I know other neighbors are around. I purposely speak very loud, keep my distance, make it clear I am unarmed and am as polite as I can be. I also don't follow guys (yes, it's always guys doing this) wearing clothing that could easily conceal a gun. If someone reaches for something, I am jumping behind the nearest parked car. [/B]

At the same time, it's my neighborhood. I will not simply go into hiding and hope others will protect us - that's not the man I am nor the man I want my son to grow into.[/quote]

best comment of the thread imo. if zimmerman would have done any of the things you listed out in your post i would imagine that martin would be alive, and they both would have walked away unscathed. it's things like this that should be drilled into everyone of these retards who think they need to walk around with a gun strapped to their side. instead they take a 2 hour course and are on their way.

it really is scary to think where the majority of our society is headed, common ****ing sense went out the window a long time ago. it's always nice to know there are some people out there that are doing it right, or at least trying to, and i thank you for that.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;904682]It really doesn't matter if it's a child, teenager or senile 80 year old - use whatever emotionally charged adjective you wish. Ultimately, for deadly force to be allowed, you have to be in [I]reasonable[/I] fear of your life. I agree that it would take a lot of extrinsic evidence to show that an 8 year old attacked you and put you in reasonable fear of your life - that would be a hard sell under the best of circumstance. Regardless, if he/she did, then you (in Florida and I would assume elsewhere) can use deadly force.

As witnessed by the neighbor, Martin had Zimmerman on his back and was beating him and attempting to create serious head trauma. Zimmerman had injuries consistent with such a beating. If Zimmerman did something first that left Trayvon [I]no choice but to resort to physical violence [/I](pull the gun out, maybe even flash it and say "I can't wait for you to turn around"), [I]then[/I] Martin is the wronged party and murder is the appropriate charge. That may well have been what happened BUT - and I'll say this yet again - [B]THERE IS NO PROOF THAT THIS HAPPENED[/B].

Otherwise, you don't like me "harrassing" you, you don't like me following you on a public street? Tough shit. If we are in public, and I don't touch or threaten you with imminent physical harm, you aren't allowed to use violence first. This is what Zimmerman alleged happened and - here it is again - [B]THERE IS NO PROOF TO CONTRADICT HIS ALLEGATION[/B].

There is no proof one way or the other of the ultimate determinative fact. It is simply conjecture based on your perceptions of the two parties (Kid, thug, vigilante, family man), the known facts and the disputed facts.

but whatever ... popular opinion and lynchmobs [I]can never[/I] be wrong.[/quote]

I see the point you're making. However, I feel the need to point out that there could at least be a little more dispute about the facts of the case had one of the two parties not committed homicide.

I mean, it sure would be easier to prove that Trayvon threw the first punch if he were around to admit that he did, wouldn't it?

Re: Trayvon Martin Case
 

[quote=jdlea;904814]I see the point you're making. However, I feel the need to point out that there could at least be a little more dispute about the facts of the case had one of the two parties not committed homicide.

[B]I mean, it sure would be easier to prove that Trayvon threw the first punch if he were around to admit that he did, wouldn't it[/B]?[/quote]

Maybe. Or, maybe it's simply a case of two guys saying "He punched me first".

It's a tragedy, plain and simple. Sometimes tragedies occur and their is no good resolution, no story book ending. Sometimes bad things happen and, after all the durm and strang, all your left with is the bad thing. It sucks but it's reality.

Seek truth, accept that you will not always find it.