Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=30gut;914096]I'm not sure what they said on ESPN but I disagree that Cousin provides more insight on pass progressions he hasn't even run compared to Rex who's been in the is offense for 3 years. (this is coming from someone that loathes Wrecks mind you)
Also, Griffin is the QB leader of this team.
I'm not saying Cousins isn't a leader but his leadership only matters when he's undercenter, the 3rd string QB isn't a leader.

And again, I was refering to actual on the field contributions.[/quote]

Trent Dilfer said that what Cousins does better than RGIII right now is go through progressions. That right now Cousins is probably a better red zone QB than RGIII for that reason.

Rex wasn't mentioned

I would like to take this discussion in a slightly different direction.

First of all, I liked Kirk Cousins as a QB at Mich State. I thought he would go earlier in the draft than the 4th round. So, that is sort of a "value pick" for the Skins.

Second, there are more than a few examples of recent NFL teams who have needed a competent back-up Qb to make it thru the season. QBs get injured; RG3 is a mobile QB so he is likely to be hit more often than some other QBs; [I]ergo[/I]... Cousins may not be a competent back-up by the first week of October in 2012, but if the Skins are looking for a back-up to take the field that early, there are far bigger problems facing this team.

From a "football perspective", I like the pick.

Here is my concern.

The Redskins now have two young QBs both of whom have always been "the man" on their teams. Cousins knows - - because the Shanahans have told him - - that he is going to be the backup and RG3 knows - - because the Shanahans have told him - - that he will be the franchise QB. That's fine and dandy - - unless - -
[INDENT]RG3 obviously struggles with the offense and Cousins has to come into a game in the 3rd or 4th quarter because RG3 is just not playing well.[/INDENT]
I don't care about the fan reaction in the circumstance; what I would fear would be the way the Shanahans will deal with the two young QBs in that circumstance. Remember how deftly and smoothly they handled benching Donovan McNabb in Detroit. Remember how skillfully they pulled Rex for Beck last year - - asserting that Beck was the best QB to come out of college in his year - - only to have to go back to Rex in another smooth tranistion a few games later.

The coaches did not handle either situation well. And a few of the QB jugglings in Denver were not handled perfectly either...

My concern is that the Shanahans might - - I said MIGHT - - not be well-equipped to deal with an on-the-field problem of that nature.

Hopefully it will not come to that. If it does, hopefully the Shanahans will handle it just a tad better than they did the McNabb/Grossman fandango.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;914111]I would like to take this discussion in a slightly different direction.

First of all, I liked Kirk Cousins as a QB at Mich State. I thought he would go earlier in the draft than the 4th round. So, that is sort of a "value pick" for the Skins.

Second, there are more than a few examples of recent NFL teams who have needed a competent back-up Qb to make it thru the season. QBs get injured; RG3 is a mobile QB so he is likely to be hit more often than some other QBs; [I]ergo[/I]... Cousins may not be a competent back-up by the first week of October in 2012, but if the Skins are looking for a back-up to take the field that early, there are far bigger problems facing this team.

From a "football perspective", I like the pick.

Here is my concern.

The Redskins now have two young QBs both of whom have always been "the man" on their teams. Cousins knows - - because the Shanahans have told him - - that he is going to be the backup and RG3 knows - - because the Shanahans have told him - - that he will be the franchise QB. That's fine and dandy - - unless - - [INDENT]RG3 obviously struggles with the offense and Cousins has to come into a game in the 3rd or 4th quarter because RG3 is just not playing well.
[/INDENT]I don't care about the fan reaction in the circumstance; what I would fear would be the way the Shanahans will deal with the two young QBs in that circumstance. Remember how deftly and smoothly they handled benching Donovan McNabb in Detroit. Remember how skillfully they pulled Rex for Beck last year - - asserting that Beck was the best QB to come out of college in his year - - only to have to go back to Rex in another smooth tranistion a few games later.

The coaches did not handle either situation well. And a few of the QB jugglings in Denver were not handled perfectly either...

My concern is that the Shanahans might - - I said MIGHT - - not be well-equipped to deal with an on-the-field problem of that nature.

Hopefully it will not come to that. If it does, hopefully the Shanahans will handle it just a tad better than they did the McNabb/Grossman fandango.[/quote]

That would be my fear too because if it came down to that this season, it would Redskins Armagedon.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

While I don't [I]love[/I] the pick, (1) I get it - a QB the FO really likes, who is projected as an eventual starter in the league and who provides much better depth going forward then Grossman; (2) I like the pick a lot - now [I]is[/I] the time to develop the young guy behind the annointed franchise, this is a guy who wasn't going to start for anybody this year but might do so in a year or two. We had 9 picks this draft and, to me, it was a clearly a depth depth depth draft - including at the game's most important position where we are now set.

All these talking heads hating the pick - okay, we had needs, but do you recognize the value of this pick both from a draft position and the improvement of the position for the Skins? Most of these same guys were saying how RGIII is more likely to have immediate success than Luck b/c the Skins are the more complete team.

So spending a value pick on a solid player who - hopefully - secures the QB position for several years on a team that, while faulty, is not abysmal is confusing to you? Can I have your job 'cause it seems pretty straight forward to me.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

When Kirk Cousins is being talked about more than your 1st pick, your starting QB, Robert Griffin, then thats never a good thing to have, especially for a rookie.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;914121]When Kirk Cousins is being talked about more than your 1st pick, your starting QB, Robert Griffin, then thats never a good thing to have, especially for a rookie.[/quote]

I don't know. I think Cousins is more relevant and being talked about more BECAUSE of Griffin first and foremost. Griffin is also discussed outside of the Cousins draft discussion.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

As to the concerns that the Shannies might not handle the QB position well if a transition is needed or occurs, both RGIII and Cousins are big time character guys. From everything I have read on both, they get it. When adversity hits, they work harder.

These aren't guys who need pampers a' la Donovan "I don't wear a wristband b/c I'm a HOF QB" McNabb. They are "Yes coach", "No coach" guys. You know what happens the first time RGIII gets pulled from a game? He locks himself in the film room for a couple days and then gets one or two of the WR's to work overtime with him. As to Cousins, I am betting he busts his ass so, when the time comes, he gets the gold ring endorsement from Shanahan who - regardless of his failings - is still seen as a QB guru by the league elites. If Shanny likes him, he will be able to write his own ticket and I'm betting Cousins knows this or will soon enough.

The more I think about it, the more I like it. Barring an epic fail by both these guys, we are set at the QB position for the foreseeable future and can really focus on building from the center out (i.e. - filling in lineman, finding a playmaker or two) in the upcoming years.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;914121]When Kirk Cousins is being talked about more than your 1st pick, your starting QB, Robert Griffin, then thats never a good thing to have, especially for a rookie.[/quote]

The only reason he is getting more press [I]now[/I] is b/c of the first pick. If we had [I]just[/I] gotten Cousins - and not done the trade for RGIII, Cousins would not be getting the press he is now. It's "reflected press" if you will.

The news on RGIII was reaching a saturation point - this just gives the press a new way to talk about him.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;914121]When Kirk Cousins is being talked about more than your 1st pick, your starting QB, Robert Griffin, then thats never a good thing to have, especially for a rookie.[/quote]

We've been talking about RG3 for months now.

The Cousins talk will die down soon enough. There's no stopping the RG3 hype machine.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=Mattyk;914137]We've been talking about RG3 for months now.

The Cousins talk will die down soon enough. There's no stopping the RG3 hype machine.[/quote]

I'm sure as soon as Griffin does his trading card shoot he'll be popular again..should be doing that sometime within the next month.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=warriorzpath;914103]Oh my... I don't think I can discuss this with you anymore with what you just said about Rex and his pass progressions being better - even with his familiarity within this offense, but manages to automatically throw 2 interceptions per game. His pass progressions are the worst of any veteran in the league. He's good Rex bad Rex for a reason - if the play goes as expected it's good Rex, if something doesn't go well on a particular play - it's bad Rex.[/quote]Okay. Then don't discuss it with me.
But when you're not discussing with me do me this favor don't change my statements around about 'Rex and his pass progressions being better'
I responded and disagreed with your statement that Cousins provided more 'insight' on the progressions then Rex.
Rex knows the progressions in this offense he's just not a good QB.

[quote=SmootSmack;914110]Trent Dilfer said that what Cousins does better than RGIII right now is go through progressions. That right now Cousins is probably a better red zone QB than RGIII for that reason.

Rex wasn't mentioned[/quote]That makes a lot more sense.
Cousins comes from a pro-style offense and has more experience with a rhythm passing offense where the drop back footwork is linked to progression reads.

The RZ stuff makes me go hhmmmnnn because Griff adds a whole different element in that area that could help generate TDs.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;914111]My concern is that the Shanahans might - - I said MIGHT - - not be well-equipped to deal with an on-the-field problem of that nature.............Hopefully it will not come to that.[/quote]I actually share that concern a little but then I remember watching the Baylor games.
And my most scientific analytical opinion overwhelms me again: Griffin is a stud.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=30gut;914147]Okay. Then don't discuss it with me.
But when you're not discussing with me do me this favor don't change my statements around about 'Rex and his pass progressions being better'
[B]I responded and disagreed with your statement that Cousins provided more 'insight' on the progressions then Rex.[/B]
[B]Rex knows the progressions in this offense he's just not a good QB.[/B]

[/quote]

Anybody that has familiarity of the playbook will KNOW the progressions of a pass play. It's the approach of handling and executing through the pass progressions - that's what appears to give Cousins the advantage and better insight of "pass progessions" over Grossman.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

... like I said - Grossman's pass progressions are the worst by a veteran in the league. Whatever you want to call it - insight, approach, execution. He just doesn't do it well, whether or not he knows them are irrelevant -- apparently -- by his results on the field.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=warriorzpath;914152]... like I said - Grossman's pass progressions are the worst in the league. Whatever you want to call it - insight, approach, execution. He just doesn't do it well, whether or not he knows them are irrelevant -- apparently -- by his results on the field.[/quote]

I heard them compare RG3 to Cousins in terms of progressions but when did they talk about Grossman's progressions?

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=SmootSmack;914153]I heard them compare RG3 to Cousins in terms of progressions but when did they talk about Grossman's progressions?[/quote]

It's my opinion. That's what I'm discussing: my opinion.

If you want to get in on this discussion, then you are welcome to.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[url=http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=7872352]Cousins Pick A Mistake For Redskins? - ESPN Video - ESPN[/url]


I thought Skip Bayless had reached the pinnacle of stupidity, but I was wrong after viewing this segment. Guy simply needs to be fired. Bringing up race? Really? He's pretty much calling the Redskins fans racists(and Shanahan).

I used to think that the media only gave us shit because we were horrible, so now that we've changed everything, they are still on our nuts. At this point, it won't matter if we start winning Super Bowls because they are going to continue hatting.

It's sad Eric Mangini has to put him in place. /facepalm

I now remember why I don't watch those dumbass shows.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=NC_Skins;914155][url=http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=7872352]Cousins Pick A Mistake For Redskins? - ESPN Video - ESPN[/url]


I thought Skip Bayless had reached the pinnacle of stupidity, but I was wrong after viewing this segment. Guy simply needs to be fired. Bringing up race? Really? He's pretty much calling the Redskins fans racists(and Shanahan).

I used to think that the media only gave us shit because we were horrible, so now that we've changed everything, they are still on our nuts. At this point, it won't matter if we start winning Super Bowls because they are going to continue hatting.

It's sad Eric Mangini has to put him in place. /facepalm

I now remember why I don't watch those dumbass shows.[/quote]

Ugh, what a douche. This crap is just painful. Skip is the king of tinfoil hats.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

I admittedly was stunned at how "normal Eric Mangini is. I hated, hated, hated, when ESPN hired him. But he's arguably been one of the better additions in a while, in my opinion.

Skip's argument was ridiculous

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=warriorzpath;914154]It's my opinion. That's what I'm discussing: my opinion.

If you want to get in on this discussion, then you are welcome to.[/quote]

Maybe I read this wrong then, but it seemed like you said it's what the experts are saying

[url]http://www.thewarpath.net/nfl-draft-central/47605-kirk-cousins-pick-4-7-a-2.html#post914088[/url]

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

human race

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

^ this

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

We have been talking RG III since the end of last season, so why not a little break about our future backup or even potential starter if something bad happens to Robert? RG III has been talked about for months, and the talk is quite old til we see him suit up and practice. Virtually every facet of us getting him and his abilities, etc has been talked about pretty much. The draft hype will die down hopefully in 2-3 weeks. The NFL draft has to be one of the most overhyped events in the history of sports. Only a fraction of these guys will be starters, much less make the 53 man roster, but they manage to lay it out over an entire weekend..

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=SmootSmack;914160]Maybe I read this wrong then, but it seemed like you said it's what the experts are saying

[URL]http://www.thewarpath.net/nfl-draft-central/47605-kirk-cousins-pick-4-7-a-2.html#post914088[/URL][/quote]

Yeah, you are reading it wrong. I'm using what the experts said (Cousins' strength:pass progressions, a safe assumption I hope) to back up my opinion.

Man, I hope I worded THAT right. What are you actually discussing with me? ... Semantics?

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=warriorzpath;914167]Yeah, you are reading it wrong. I'm using what the experts said (Cousins' strength:pass progressions, a safe assumption I hope) to back up my opinion.

Man, I hope I worded THAT right. What are you actually discussing with me? ... Semantics?[/quote]

Not discussing anything with you. Just asking where you heard the comparison between Cousins and Grossman, because I thought that's what you had said

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=SmootSmack;914158]I admittedly was stunned at how "normal Eric Mangini is. I hated, hated, hated, when ESPN hired him. But he's arguably been one of the better additions in a while, in my opinion.

Skip's argument was ridiculous[/quote]

Mangini is surprisingly good on the air.

I can't believe ESPN has this video posted on the main NFL page, as if it's a legit debate. Skip's take is borderline irresponsible. He's nuts.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=Mattyk;914174]Mangini is surprisingly good on the air.

I can't believe ESPN has this video posted on the main NFL page, as if it's a legit debate. Skip's take is borderline irresponsible. He's nuts.[/quote]

I should go say hello.
[YT]dWoNauDxGqc[/YT]

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=warriorzpath;914152]... like I said - Grossman's pass progressions are the worst by a veteran in the league. Whatever you want to call it - insight, approach, execution. He just doesn't do it well, whether or not he knows them are irrelevant -- apparently -- by his results on the field.[/quote]insight, approach and execution are all different
In the post I responded to you said [I][B]insight[/B][/I] its not irrelevant when that was your intial statement if you want to change the words [I][B]you[/B][/I] chose then you're changing the discussion

[quote][quote=warriorzpath;914067]he immediately brings in some [B][I][U][COLOR="DarkRed"]insight[/COLOR][/U][/I][/B] that Rex Grossman and John Beck couldn't provide at the qb position.[/quote][quote=30gut;914076]I'm not sure what you mean by insight, but Grossman undoubtedly knows the offense better then Cousins.
And maybe Cousins does bring more confidence, I'm hoping he can win the back-up spot outright and become the back-up as a rookie like Tyrod Taylor did last year.

But, I'm refering to actual on the field contributions either through offense, defense or special teams as a rotational or depth player.[/quote][quote=warriorzpath;914088]Going by the analysis by the ESPN experts, one insight that he provides that Grossman doesn't is progressions.[/quote][/QUOTE]

Skip is a tool

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=NC_Skins;914155][url=http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=7872352]Cousins Pick A Mistake For Redskins? - ESPN Video - ESPN[/url]


I thought Skip Bayless had reached the pinnacle of stupidity, but I was wrong after viewing this segment. Guy simply needs to be fired. Bringing up race? Really? He's pretty much calling the Redskins fans racists(and Shanahan).

I used to think that the media only gave us shit because we were horrible, so now that we've changed everything, they are still on our nuts. At this point, it won't matter if we start winning Super Bowls because they are going to continue hatting.

It's sad Eric Mangini has to put him in place. /facepalm

I now remember why I don't watch those dumbass shows.[/quote]


First off, this show is a f*cking joke. For Skip to imply the race thing when DC PROUDLY had the first black superbowl winning QB and imply DC will not accept RG3 and then implicates Shanny with the same logic is simply repulsive. Im personally offended by Skip, its another low. I wish to god ESPN would yank the entire show, its really tiring to watch.

Mangini too classy and reasonable for that show. He, of course, is the only one making sense. Skip and "However" are just jokes

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=Chico23231;914183]Mangini too classy and reasonable for that show. He, of course, is the only one making sense. Skip and "However" are just jokes[/quote]

The look on Mangini's face that time with Skip talking was priceless. You know he wanted to call him a idiot.

This is a media driven story, I highly doubt this is a big concern amongst the fans. The only people trying to keep this story going work in Bristol and other similar places.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;914181]Skip is a tool[/quote]

I 2nd that statement.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

first, if some people are arguing that cousins was a mistake cause he's too good... wtf? if we want a better football team, we need better players everywhere.

I understand if someone thinks we should have taken a massie or whoever there, but it's hard to argue that cousins is a bad value.

second, i don't think you ever draft anyone just to trade them. that's just a stupid idea and a great way to waste a pick. they got him because he was the BPA and a near term upgrade to grossman (with a little luck)... and how many teams have ended up using 2 QBs in a season? an awful lot of them, and it'd be better if our backup QB didn't stink.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

In his retraction perhaps Skip can claim someone......roofied his Ensure.
Good on Mangini.....

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=That Guy;914187]first, if some people are arguing that cousins was a mistake cause he's too good... wtf? if we want a better football team, we need better players everywhere.

I understand if someone thinks we should have taken a massie or whoever there, but it's hard to argue that cousins is a bad value.

second, i don't think you ever draft anyone just to trade them. that's just a stupid idea and a great way to waste a pick. they got him because he was the BPA and a near term upgrade to grossman (with a little luck)... and how many teams have ended up using 2 QBs in a season? an awful lot of them, and it'd be better if our backup QB didn't stink.[/quote]

Well, in this case, Cousins doing well is a prerequisite to him being traded for big dough, because he sure ain't gonna get traded for big dough without showing some smexy mojo.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

Skip Bayless is a joke, and has no clue; to subliminally take a racial shot at the fan base/season ticket holders and Shanahan, is out of bounds. We drafted Cousins [B]A)[/B] to replace Rex as a backup in 2013 [B]B)[/B] To develop him enough to trade him in 2-3 years for a high pick; and [B]C)[/B] As insurance and depth for RG3; God forbid RG3 gets seriously hurt and may never play again, we'll (hopefully) have a viable starter in Cousins... You need capable backups that can come in as starters in case one of the 22 gets injured. This is kind of comparing apples to oranges, but who would've thought this time 5 years ago Sean Taylor would be killed 7 months later? Quality talent and depth after your starter, is vital because you just don't know what can happen in the future. QB and S are different in positions and importance, but we still, 5 years later after Taylor, are looking for a starting FS. [B]IF[/B] something happens to RG3, we'll have at least have Cousins.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=mredskins;914002]My sincere apologies if this has been posted all ready but Gruden's camp on Cousins is pretty good probably better then RGIII's.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmxSow6A9R0]Gruden's QB Camp: Kirk Cousins (FULL)- HD - YouTube[/url][/quote]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't agree at all. Gruden's tape was pretty unflattering as I see it. Gruden showed Cousins was a very poised and eloquent QB, who has potential to be a great leader. BUT, Gruden seemed to highlight all of his mistakes:
(1) fumbling snaps (?probs w wet ball)
(2) trying to force the ball twice into bad reads leading to two interceptions
(3) problems throwing fade routes -> another interception
(4) losing control/spiking the ball -> 15 yard penalty in redzone

Cousins even says, "I'm not RG3".. Watching the Georgia game, Cousins was good - but 90% of his throws were within 10-15 yards, had two picks and one safety from a bubble screen at the 1 yard line. In contrast, I've watched some of RG3's games and they were among the some of the best games I've seen - immaculate deep ball, great accuracy, great confidence, and amazing plays with the game on the line on the national spotlight -- truly an elite athelete *having fun*.

I don't think there's ANY competition for starting QB. But we do have a backup with good potential down the road, which is a great thing. With some development with Shanahan, I do think there's potential to sell high & recoup picks.

[QUOTE=ethat001;914199]Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't agree at all. Gruden's tape was pretty unflattering as I see it. Gruden showed Cousins was a very poised and eloquent QB, who has potential to be a great leader. BUT, Gruden seemed to highlight all of his mistakes:
(1) fumbling snaps (?probs w wet ball)
(2) trying to force the ball twice into bad reads leading to two interceptions
(3) problems throwing fade routes -> another interception
(4) losing control/spiking the ball -> 15 yard penalty in redzone

Cousins even says, "I'm not RG3".. Watching the Georgia game, Cousins was good - but 90% of his throws were within 10-15 yards, had two picks and one safety from a bubble screen at the 1 yard line. In contrast, I've watched some of RG3's games and they were among the some of the best games I've seen - immaculate deep ball, great accuracy, great confidence, and amazing plays with the game on the line on the national spotlight -- truly an elite athelete *having fun*.

I don't think there's ANY competition for starting QB. But we do have a backup with good potential down the road, which is a great thing. With some development with Shanahan, I do think there's potential to sell high & recoup picks.[/QUOTE]

I just meant the episode was better it focused more cousins abilities versus RGIII video which focused more on his personality. No way was I trying to cousins was better then RGIII.

Re: Kirk Cousins pick 4.7
 

[quote=30gut;914178]insight, approach and execution are all different
In the post I responded to you said [I][B]insight[/B][/I] its not irrelevant when that was your intial statement if you want to change the words [I][B]you[/B][/I] chose then you're changing the discussion[/quote]


All the of it is the same -- given the strengths of Cousins in the words of some of the NFL experts, he should contribute in making the redskins better than it has been whether it is in the meetings or backing up RGIII. Cousins should be able to contribute to the Redskins in ways that Rex Grossman can never do; let's just say I hope Cousins will be able to or he was a mistake to draft.

Try twisting the words in those last 2 sentences.