Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

[quote=MTK;1180673]Continuity just for the sake of it is worthless, so you have to ask if Gruden is the main thing holding us back. Personally I don’t believe so.[/quote]

Very good point! I have always believed in team chemistry,some teams might not have the very best but somehow they make it work and that to me is chemistry.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

Out of all the variables that can actually change (Smithers gets to stay forever), I think Gruden is the one holding us back the most.

Getting outplayed 9 out of every 10 2nd and 4th quarters is inexcusable and that falls on the HC.

The end of both halfs yesterday is par for the course with Gruden.

Yesterday was the straw that broke this camels back. I don't think we'll ever win anything with him. He is an 8-8 kind of guy.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

I agree 100% with Schneed and others who have pointed out that Gruden isn't necessarily holding us back, but he isn't exactly moving forward either.

he really is just an 8-8 kind of coach. He might get hot at the right time and you go 10-6, but i think he is absolutely middle of the road. He will never take the team and make it better, just sort of maintain the natural 8-8 equilibrium. Question is, does Snyder let him finish out his extension going 7-9, 8-8, 6-10, etc....

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

I would put in a claim for him now to replace Thompson:

[url]https://247sports.com/nfl/washington-redskins/Bolt/Cardinals-release-RB-Andre-Ellington-110814166[/url]

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1180609]Thanks NFL, this makes it ALLLL better -
[URL="http://www.nbcsports.com/washington/redskins/report-league-admits-getting-kirk-cousins-intentional-grounding-call-wrong"]Per report, league admits to getting Kirk Cousins' intentional grounding call wrong | NBC Sports Washington[/URL][/quote]

Lol. This is the equivalent of you bringing the lube into the room after you just raw dogged your girl. Too little, too late.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

[quote=MTK;1180673]Continuity just for the sake of it is worthless, so you have to ask if Gruden is the main thing holding us back. Personally I don’t believe so.[/quote]

Agreed.
Continuity isn’t working for the Bengals.

Gruden appears to be nothing more than norv turner.
He is too soft with players and and coaches.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

Hall is on the field cause our 2nd rounder from last year quit. And Nicholson can not even stay on the field for an entire game cause he keeps getting hurt. Not even sure what's going on with Everett.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

Problem is if you fire Gruden who do they hire? You can not get an elite or upcoming coach to come here. Anyone associated w/ the Pats like Vrabel or McDaniels would never come here. Harbaugh would lol if Allen called him. It would have be someone who's crossed paths w/ Allen. Basically another Tampa reject or perhaps Callahan.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1180722]Hall is on the field cause our 2nd rounder from last year quit. And Nicholson can not even stay on the field for an entire game cause he keeps getting hurt. Not even sure what's going on with Everett.[/quote]

Like someone else mentioned, cut Hall and promote Fish Smithson from the PS, can’t be any worse.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

[QUOTE=skinsfaninok;1180688][url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/11/20/terrelle-pryor-having-ankle-surgery/]Terrelle Pryor having ankle surgery – ProFootballTalk[/url]



shocker[/QUOTE]



I actually forgot about Pryor. Didn’t cross my mind once yesterday. Guess he has not made a lasting impression on me.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

[QUOTE=SolidSnake84;1180709]I agree 100% with Schneed and others who have pointed out that Gruden isn't necessarily holding us back, but he isn't exactly moving forward either.



he really is just an 8-8 kind of coach. He might get hot at the right time and you go 10-6, but i think he is absolutely middle of the road. He will never take the team and make it better, just sort of maintain the natural 8-8 equilibrium. Question is, does Snyder let him finish out his extension going 7-9, 8-8, 6-10, etc....[/QUOTE]



I dont think he is even middle of the road. If, for example, Gruden and every other coach in the league had the same exact team playing each other so it all came down to coaching that he would get schooled every day and twice on Sunday. He doesn’t have the chops. Time to move on.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1180723]Problem is if you fire Gruden who do they hire? You can not get an elite or upcoming coach to come here. Anyone associated w/ the Pats like Vrabel or McDaniels would never come here. Harbaugh would lol if Allen called him. It would have be someone who's crossed paths w/ Allen. Basically another Tampa reject or perhaps Callahan.[/quote]

There are only 32 HC jobs in the league, if someone wants to be a HC, I don't see too many people turning down the job, especially since we are starting to accumulate some real talent. Talent wise, this will easily be one of the better jobs if Gruden is canned.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1180723]Problem is if you fire Gruden who do they hire? You can not get an elite or upcoming coach to come here. Anyone associated w/ the Pats like Vrabel or McDaniels would never come here. Harbaugh would lol if Allen called him. It would have be someone who's crossed paths w/ Allen. Basically another Tampa reject or perhaps Callahan.[/quote]

I'll take Gruden, in a NY min!

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;1180724]Like someone else mentioned, cut Hall and promote Fish Smithson from the PS, can’t be any worse.[/quote]

who the hell is he? another guy off the street??

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1180723]Problem is if you fire Gruden who do they hire? You can not get an elite or upcoming coach to come here. Anyone associated w/ the Pats like Vrabel or McDaniels would never come here. Harbaugh would lol if Allen called him. It would have be someone who's crossed paths w/ Allen. Basically another Tampa reject or perhaps Callahan.[/quote]

Yep. This is what people are failing to understand. Who the hell wants to come to Washington when they know they're on a short leash? Look, like it or not, the Redskins franchise has a bit of a reputation for not being the best organization to work for. Whether if that is the case or not, that's the reputation. The sports media pushes that idea, and I'm sure there are groups within the NFL who push that idea. So having said that, if you stick with the same formula of letting a coach go after three or four seasons, just like all the others, then in the eyes of the sports media, in the eyes of other coaches in the league, they see Washington as a place with the least amount of job security. They see Washington as a franchise with a meddlesome owner and a dysfunctional front office. They see it as a place where coaches are always on the hot seat, and coaches are never successful.

Looking at the Eagles, the Chiefs (who are struggling right now by the way), the Rams, and the Vikings, none of those teams have the reputation like the Redskins. Any issues they may have had with the front office were isolated issues that have been corrected. And that correction hasn't just been, simply, the coach. The Redskins continue to have issues and have so since 2001. Simply put, this organization has long past the glory years, and you can't go back and cling to those years and say this is still one of the best franchises to work for, because that is simply not true. It hasn't been true since Jack Kent Cooke died. If, honestly, it was all about going out and getting the best coaching staff for this organization, we would have already done that by now. There's a lot more to the story than simply the coaches. It's all connected. A coach can't become a great coach with a shitty front office. The front office looks horrible with a poorly coached team. The whole organization looks horrible when the ownership is horrible. In my opinion, fixing the front office (like we thought we had done with Scot McCloughan) goes a very long way. If you have the right GM in there that loads your team up with talent, and your coach is only good for 9 wins a season, then it's the coach. But you cannot say this team was loaded with talent. It has a lot of talent on the team, but no depth. The offense is a shell of what it was last year. The defense shows promise but still has a lot of holes to be filled. There's no depth on this team. Those are all front office issues.

If you want a savior coach to come in and bring championships to this club, you've gotta make it an attractive place for him to come and coach. That starts with showing the current guy that you're giving him every chance in the book to prove himself. Right now, the current guy has 6 more games left in his 4th year. Things might be a lot more rosey by the end of the season.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

[QUOTE=Giantone;1180728]I'll take Gruden, in a NY min![/QUOTE]



Why? What is it about him that is appealing to you? His last name? Lol. U can have him.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

As JR said last week the power rankings are fool's gold and click bait, and to prove it they continually say stupid things. for example here is this week's blurb:

15. Washington Redskins (4-6, LW: 14)
What a crushing loss. Blowing a 15-point lead with less than six minutes left is really hard to do, and the Redskins also lost running back Chris Thompson to a leg injury. At least Samaje Perine had a breakthrough game. Now that the season is practically over, the focus turns to Kirk Cousins and what happens with his impending free agency.

___


6 weeks left, and the focus turns to impending FA. UGH

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1180729]who the hell is he? another guy off the street??[/quote]

Someone that can be faster than Hall

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

[QUOTE=SFREDSKIN;1180735]Someone that can be faster than Hall[/QUOTE]



Oh why didn’t you say so. I nominate Edna Fisher. My 90 year old neighbor. She just got a new hip and is ready to go!

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

The Skins are a prime coaching job. Most coaches have enough of an ego to think that they can come in and make a winner whereever they go. And people who say that Snyder has coaches on a short leash is living in the 2000-2010 world. Since 2004 we have had 4 coaches: JG who retired(64 games), Zorn who demolished the team JG built (32 games), Shanahan(64 games), Gruden (48 games). Zorn was an obvious fire, Shanahan obviously blew up on both sides, and now Gruden.

Further, other than the pick of Doctson, I think that Gruden would say that the FO has given him any player he wanted, except maybe for the handwringing around RGIII.

I am not a proponent of firing JGruden after 3 positive seasons, but if and when we move on from him, there will be good candidates getting their resumes in.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1180723]Problem is if you fire Gruden who do they hire? You can not get an elite or upcoming coach to come here. Anyone associated w/ the Pats like Vrabel or McDaniels would never come here. Harbaugh would lol if Allen called him. It would have be someone who's crossed paths w/ Allen. Basically another Tampa reject or perhaps Callahan.[/quote]

Yeah this makes absolutely no sense. Sorry.

Any offensive-minded head coach would jump at the opportunity to work with Cousins and an offensive line that features Scherff, Trent, and Morgan Moses.

They look at their chances of being successful before they consider the problems that their bosses would present.

Josh McDaniels had Kyle Orton and Tim Tebow in Denver. You don't think he'd love a shot to work with a proven quarterback? If Hue Jackson gets let go from Cleveland, you don't think he'd jump at a shot to work with Cousins after having to put up with dreck in Cleveland?

But the one part of your point I'll concede is that a major reason not to move on from Gruden is that Bruce will be in charge of the hire, which means he'll most likely focus too narrowly and consider only candidates with whom he's had previous experience.

But that's another reason (of many) to fire Allen, it's not a reason to throw up your hands and say well the average Jay Gruden is the best we're going to do.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

If we were to fire Gruden, and we manage to get Cousins on a long term contract, I think we'll be the best available job in the NFL, by far.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

Who says Cousins would want to stay here with another HC? I think this talk of canning Gruden is way too premature. I don’t see him going anywhere.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

Maybe firing him isnt the best option but the guy, for me at least, needs to give up the play calling duties. Theres no way we should have lost that game on Sunday and no one way 9ers should have even had a chance as well.. He's crossed the line IMO.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

People had very similar complaints about McVay the last few years as a play caller. To me it’s a seriously overrated complaint. If guys make their blocks we convert that 4th down. If the call was a QB sneak or an up the gut run that got stuffed people would be complaining about that call too. Players have to execute and they simply did not. I’d have to double check but I think it was Paul that blew his assignment on the play.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

[quote=MTK;1180743]People had very similar complaints about McVay the last few years as a play caller. To me it’s a seriously overrated complaint. If guys make their blocks we convert that 4th down. If the call was a QB sneak or an up the gut run that got stuffed people would be complaining about that call too. Players have to execute and they simply did not. I’d have to double check but I think it was Paul that blew his assignment on the play.[/quote]

I agree with the execution issue with this team. Too many damn plays left on the field. Vernon Davis multiple drops, mis-tackles by the defense in the last 6 mins of game, fuckin Crowder not getting the bubble screen audible, Cousins not seeing the blitzer last play in reg....just too many mistakes.

Way to early to fire Jay...


In regards to McVay, he did abandon the run too much. Now he has Gurley and runs it well. Probably more of a talent thing...but still

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

[quote=MTK;1180743]People had very similar complaints about McVay the last few years as a play caller. To me it’s a seriously overrated complaint. If guys make their blocks we convert that 4th down. If the call was a QB sneak or an up the gut run that got stuffed people would be complaining about that call too. Players have to execute and they simply did not. I’d have to double check but I think it was Paul that blew his assignment on the play.[/quote]

Agreed. The penalty on the FG, KC's intentional grounding (even it wasn't), all those things are on the players. But at the same token, some coaches struggle more with game management than others, and Gruden will always be one who does. I don't understand wanting him to give up play calling, I mean we put up solid points against top defenses all year long. The question I have is why do the Skins go into brain freeze at the end of half's and games. I just don't understand that at all.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

Actually playcalling is the one area where I think Gruden is quite a bit above average.

On Cousins, you're right, you have to get him under contract before you can make a move on the coach. Can't fire Gruden and expect Cousins to think signing long term is his best option.

Can't move on from Gruden until we know what our future is with Kirk. So from that perspective I agree it's premature to make a move now. You wait until the QB situation resolves.

But let's put it this way - I feel like I've seen all there is to see with Jay. I'd be extremely surprised if I feel differently in March. We're headed for 8-8 or 9-7, yet again, and it's just not good enough for me.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

the lack of killer instinct in his play calling - though i loved the crazy fake punt - the 3 straight runs that didn;t work against SF and almost lossed us that game, didn;t work again and i feel like he has no balls when the shit is about to hit the fan..... it's just discouraging ... get kirk out of the pocket he is capable of picking up 1 yard or tossing a quick pass.... smh all ya needed was a first down man..... thats it.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1180746]Agreed. The penalty on the FG, KC's intentional grounding (even it wasn't), all those things are on the players. But at the same token, some coaches struggle more with game management than others, and Gruden will always be one who does. I don't understand wanting him to give up play calling, I mean we put up solid points against top defenses all year long. The question I have is why do the Skins go into brain freeze at the end of half's and games. I just don't understand that at all.[/quote]

I think McVay was the one who brought an awful lot of organization and structure to the organization. That's not Jay's strength. So in those two minute situations, the contingency plans aren't clear.

The fact that Cousins had to look to the sideline to get a hand signal from Gruden to ditch the ball against 8 in the box is a sign that they haven't coached Cousins well enough. He's smart enough and experienced enough to handle something like Jay telling him at practice - hey in a two minute situation if you see 8 in the box against this play, find a way to check out of it or ditch the ball.

It didn't happen, and Kirk is getting hand signals from the sideline pre-snap telling him what to do. That's not a good sign, it shows the QB isn't prepared for those contingencies. Nevermind the fact that the grounding was the wrong call by the refs there, I'm just bothered by Cousins having to pick up a signal from the sideline at all. I don't think Jay sees two or three steps ahead, that's his limitation.

If I'm a boxer I want to have a counter move and a counter-counter move for everything my opponent throws at me. The chaos in the last two minutes tells me that both Gruden and Manusky have limitations with seeing a few steps ahead.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

yea i really would like cousins having much more freedom at the line pre snap in general, and that hand signal shit during a 2 minute is nothing but a hinderance.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

Another sign of that limitation - Jay doesn't set teams up in the red zone as a playcaller. Some playcallers, if they have 1st and goal from the 5, will use a certain personnel group and formation for all three plays, and the first two plays if they don't work are intended to, on the third play, get the defense to bite on a fake.

Sean Payton did this on the game-tying two point conversion on Sunday, they had been running right quite a bit so they faked it having the line block to the right and then Kamara countered left as Brees pitched to him. It got one blocker against Preston Smith and all Kamara had to do was outrace D Hall to the corner.

They had been setting that up with tendencies. Gruden's play calling is much more well let's see if this works, OK now let's try this, now let's try this. He's done well with zone read fakes by running Cousins at the goalline but to me that's about the extent of his efforts to set a team up with a strategic sequence.

I think he reacts to what he sees, he doesn't anticipate what he's likely to see and devise a strategy to beat it. He's average.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

[quote=Schneed10;1180739]Yeah this makes absolutely no sense. Sorry.

Any offensive-minded head coach would jump at the opportunity to work with Cousins and an offensive line that features Scherff, Trent, and Morgan Moses.

They look at their chances of being successful before they consider the problems that their bosses would present.

Josh McDaniels had Kyle Orton and Tim Tebow in Denver. You don't think he'd love a shot to work with a proven quarterback? If Hue Jackson gets let go from Cleveland, you don't think he'd jump at a shot to work with Cousins after having to put up with dreck in Cleveland?

But the one part of your point I'll concede is that a major reason not to move on from Gruden is that Bruce will be in charge of the hire, which means he'll most likely focus too narrowly and consider only candidates with whom he's had previous experience.

But that's another reason (of many) to fire Allen, it's not a reason to throw up your hands and say well the average Jay Gruden is the best we're going to do.[/quote]

McDaniels would never come here, I just don't see that. Sorry but Denver at that time had/has a much more reputable reputation around the league than the Redskins. Jackson would come here, I'll give you that.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

Why do people assume the status of the head coach has absolutely no barring on contract negotiations with the quarterback? I believe it absolutely does in this situation. If Cousins re-signs with Washington, what will make it attractive is the fact that he stays within the offense that he has excelled in, and sticks with the head coach who has put trust and faith in him to lead the team. Why is that so hard to understand? Before the season, Cousins was linked to either the LA Rams (McVay), or San Fran (Shanahan.) Why? Because he knows those coaches and knows the system. That would likely be the reason (other than the monetary reason) he stays in Washington. And I would not be surprised in the least that the status of the head coach for future seasons plays a role in contract negotiations with Kirk Cousins. If Cousins thinks Gruden might get canned, he's likely to jump ship.

Personally, I think all of this talk about canning Gruden is nuts. Back when this team was a 5 win team on a regular basis, we dreamed of having a team that could at least be over .500. Now, we want to fire a head coach who still has a chance to lead the team to a third straight winning season, albeit absent of a playoff berth, in spite of the fact that we've lost so many playmakers to IR and playmakers to free agency. To be OK with firing Gruden and not give any shade to Bruce Allen is just mind-boggling to me. Allen fires the best guy we've had at player personnel acquisition over a "personal" thing. Allen screwed up contract negotiations with Kirk Cousins. Allen lets two 1000 yard receivers walk in free agency. Allen doesn't know squat when it comes to player personnel, but wants final say in something he doesn't know. And yet, we all talk about firing the head coach and thinking we'll get the cream of the crop to come in next year and lead this team to the Super Bowl! Madness guys! Madness! Please pass what your puffing!

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

Only way Cousins signs if is Allen is fired

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

I'd can Gruden as soon as the season ends and get new HC hired asap. Then Cousins can meet with new HC and his OC. Then if he doesn't want to sign, put the transition tag on him. Then we either get 2 1st round picks, or Cousins gets 1 more year here to see if he likes new situation or he signs a massive extension.

Where is it said that Cousins is married to Gruden? Even if he is, you can't keep a mediocre coach to please a player. Mr. 8-8 just doesn't have "it" as a coach. We completely shit the bed Sunday. That was pathetic. Usually by now, I'm over losses, but I'm still damn pissed off about this one.

Either way, I'll have a huge cauldron of kool-aid made going into the 2018 season. 2018 SB champs!

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

[quote=MTK;1180743]People had very similar complaints about McVay the last few years as a play caller. To me it’s a seriously overrated complaint. If guys make their blocks we convert that 4th down. If the call was a QB sneak or an up the gut run that got stuffed people would be complaining about that call too. Players have to execute and they simply did not. I’d have to double check but I think it was Paul that blew his assignment on the play.[/quote]

Paul missed the block. Which brings me to this question. Why is he playing fullback anyway and why isn't there a true fullback on the roster? Which would tell me trying to push guys off the line on a 3rd and short isn't what we do well. Especially when guys are playing hurt. It was just a dumb ass call, there's no defending it. It wasn't even full yard, it was half a yard.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1180762]I'd can Gruden as soon as the season ends and get new HC hired asap. Then Cousins can meet with new HC and his OC. Then if he doesn't want to sign him, put the transition tag on him. Then we either get 2 1st round picks, or Cousins gets 1 more year here to see if he likes new situation or he signs a massive extension.

Where is it said that Cousins is married to Gruden? Even if he is, you can't keep a mediocre coach to please a player. Mr. 8-8 just doesn't have "it" as a coach. We completely shit the bed Sunday. That was pathetic. Usually by now, I'm over losses, but I'm still damn pissed off about this one.

Either way, I'll have a huge cauldron of kool-aid made going into the 2018 season. 2018 SB champs![/quote]

Coaching changes happen all the time in this league. Cousins would have to get over it like every other QB has had to. It's part of the business.

It's a big 6 games for Gruden. The team has to get better at the last few minutes of each half. This high school nonsense has to stop or he deserves to get fired. Just think how close we were to losing to the 49ers at home and it was really a so so call that helped us win that one.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1180746]Agreed. The penalty on the FG, KC's intentional grounding (even it wasn't), all those things are on the players. But at the same token, some coaches struggle more with game management than others, and[B] Gruden will always be one who does[/B]. I don't understand wanting him to give up play calling, I mean we put up solid points against top defenses all year long. The question I have is why do the Skins go into brain freeze at the end of half's and games. I just don't understand that at all.[/quote]

Exactly. He's had 4 years to fix it and he's still screwing it up. It ain't that hard. He has multiple coaches helping, they practice it, he has a vet QB and they still struggle with it.

Re: Heartbreak City: Redskins-Saints Postgame Thread
 

Paul is more than capable of making that block. Fullback in general has been phased out around the league not just here.