Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;1275428]Watch the video.[/quote]

I'm 10 minutes in, is there a specific part you'd like me to watch?

It sounds like he thought it was a collaborative effort with Ron, maybe it wasn't? Maybe Ron told him to fall in line? Idk. It doesn't rule out the scenario I laid out though, if they had philosophical differences in how to build the team it wouldn't be a surprise that Kyle is out.

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

[quote=mooby;1275430]I'm 10 minutes in, is there a specific part you'd like me to watch?

It sounds like he thought it was a collaborative effort with Ron, maybe it wasn't? Maybe Ron told him to fall in line? Idk. It doesn't rule out the scenario I laid out though, if they had philosophical differences in how to build the team it wouldn't be a surprise that Kyle is out.[/quote]

Sounded like they had a good working relationship, with Ron telling he’s doing a good job, basically blowing sunshine up his ass. So then what happened there if things were so good?

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

[quote=SunnySide;1275284]Reading articles and the Lions fan forum ... expectation is it will take a 1st plus something else. Colts, 9ers are the most talked about likely partners.

Our 1st plus a 3rd or so might do it.

im fine either way. But I would like to know what the Watson demand is so we could compare.

Stafford - 1st and 3rd?
Watson - two 1sts and a 3rd?

I think Watson fits our scheme more than Stafford. Plus age. Plus ability to extend broken plays.[/quote]

No retreads. In the last two drafts we have found solid long term starters at RB and WR with 3rd round pick. We should be able to find our long term shutdown corner or LT (or MLB or FS) with a 1st in this year's draft. We are NOT close to being a contender. We have a great DL and little else. We need a LOT of players. I love Stafford, but wouldn't trade for him, and certainly not a 1st round pick. Long term, you should hit on every first round pick and have 7-8 1st round starters on your team at any given time.

You have to do it the right way, find a long-term answer through the draft. A young guy that can lead your franchise for a decade or longer. You don't have to draft a top-10 QB to find a franchise QB, but it is harder.

Running QBs don't last. Eventually in the NFL the 250# monsters will catch you and break you. Look at this year's playoffs. The running QBs are hurt. The pocket passers have been playing since the Roman Empire collapsed. You're going to find your franchise QB, pay him $40M+ a year, and then let him take potshots from 300# linemen and bone-crushing LBs? And then lose him regularly to injuries? Sheer madness.

Trading for Stafford is horrible. We can get multiple players in prime on rookie deals that fill needs for what it would take to get him.

Watson can whine all he wants, he isn't getting traded, this is just the media running with a story so they have something to talk about. He is under contract, he is going to be told he isn't getting traded, but for now the GM will just let him run his mouth and wind himself down. Watson should have pondered longevity of coaching before signing $150M+ extension. What a crazy idea, that he actually honor that contract. He isn't going ANYWHERE. He wants to threaten to sit, they'll call his bluff, and go after his signing bonus. Push comes to shove, he'll play rather than surrender $35M+ a year.
Teams that believe they have their franchise QB won't trade him for ANYTHING, and the cap hit for cutting trading has to be something like $20M-$50M for Texans. Thus, even if wowed with 3 #1s, which is madness, trading not possible. Would you trade a franchise QB in his prime, suffer a $50M cap hit over two years (depending how much you defer to the following year), so you then have void at QB and have decimated your cap. Nope. Watson is NOT being traded unless it is an absolute King's Ransom and probably not even then. So everybody please just stop it.

Have to draft a long-term answer, not pursue the fool's gold of trading precious draft capital for guys on the backside of their career. If you are going to surrender draft picks, which we shouldn't, then you would trade up for a young QB you want to draft. You get him on rookie deal, and you have him for a decade or more. But I don't favor selling the farm to trade up either, modest trade up fine maybe. Smith. McNabb. RGIII. How many times do we have to make the mistake of retreads or mortgaging the future until the arm-chair Cerratos learn?

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;1275431]Sounded like they had a good working relationship, with Ron telling he’s doing a good job, basically blowing sunshine up his ass. So then what happened there if things were so good?[/quote]

Look at the history of THE DAN. By year 2 or 3, he ALWAYS meddles. ALWAYS. You think Riviera didn't call the Shanny Clan and others and get the real story and learn what a turd THE DAN is? Its always all hugs and kisses year one or two, and then THE DAN meddles. ALWAYS. Don't believe the BS that this has somehow magically changed. RR has to be sure he has someone he can trust, not Snyder yes men, so he has intel from someone he has known forever and can trust when the meddling begins. How does he know if THE DAN goes to some scout and says give PLAYER X a good scouting report and champion him to RR or you are fired? Ron's only protection against THE DAN is to bring his own guys in. There is some desire to do this anyway, but this propensity becomes a need with THE DAN. RR is not dumb and has no illusions that THE DAN will not revert to his long-term behavior trends once the honeymoon is over. Every human being does.

THE DAN tax, on franchise success, is never ending. We are tossing out a brilliant young GM in the making, and probably the bulk of his scouting staff, for two retreads. Cam Newton has been a failure, especially when it comes to character. He takes all the glory when things are good, and blames everyone else like a ten-year old when things are bad. Locker Room cancer. He was also never very accurate and lacked the humility to work to become a more accurate passer. So we now have the regime that whiffed on Newton picking our next QB. Smith isn't the only talented GM or scout in the league, but I would argue a great GM is more important than a great coach. A great coach can't win without talent the GM provides, but a good coach can win with a lot of talent. So we again have it backwards. Letting the coach buy the groceries, directly or indirectly, doesn't work in most cases. You can't have a GM that is the lackey of the coach. He has to be the equal of the coach, or the boss of the coach. Mayhew and Hurney are average at best in terms of their personnel track records. They are not horrific hires, but neither are they brilliant hires, and the best teams, especially those good year in and out, have brilliant GMs. We are letting a potentially brilliant GM go to bring in two mediocre GMs who are retreads and nothing more.

What you would expect is another great draft this year because Smith has largely run it and done the scouting, though he may be overruled by RR and Co., him to leave for somewhere else later in year or year after latest, and then draft prowess to drop appreciably after. I could be wrong, but that is what you would expect. Smith may be too young to be GM, but he should have at minimum been promoted to assistant GM and given huge pay raise to keep him here. We have no idea what is happening behind scenes, whether divergent philosophies, but a huge portion of it has to be setting up a rampart against meddling by THE DAN.

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

[quote=Scalper;1275433]Look at the history of THE DAN. By year 2 or 3, he ALWAYS meddles. ALWAYS. You think Riviera didn't call the Shanny Clan and others and get the real story and learn what a turd THE DAN is? Its always all hugs and kisses year one or two, and then THE DAN meddles. ALWAYS. Don't believe the BS that this has somehow magically changed. RR has to be sure he has someone he can trust, not Snyder yes men, so he has intel from someone he has known forever and can trust when the meddling begins. How does he know if THE DAN goes to some scout and says give PLAYER X a good scouting report and champion him to RR or you are fired? Ron's only protection against THE DAN is to bring his own guys in. There is some desire to do this anyway, but this propensity becomes a need with THE DAN. RR is not dumb and has no illusions that THE DAN will not revert to his long-term behavior trends once the honeymoon is over. Every human being does.

THE DAN tax, on franchise success, is never ending. We are tossing out a brilliant young GM in the making, and probably the bulk of his scouting staff, for two retreads. Cam Newton has been a failure, especially when it comes to character. He takes all the glory when things are good, and blames everyone else like a ten-year old when things are bad. Locker Room cancer. He was also never very accurate and lacked the humility to work to become a more accurate passer. So we now have the regime that whiffed on Newton picking our next QB. Smith isn't the only talented GM or scout in the league, but I would argue a great GM is more important than a great coach. A great coach can't win without talent the GM provides, but a good coach can win with a lot of talent. So we again have it backwards. Letting the coach buy the groceries, directly or indirectly, doesn't work in most cases. You can't have a GM that is the lackey of the coach. He has to be the equal of the coach, or the boss of the coach. Mayhew and Hurney are average at best in terms of their personnel track records. They are not horrific hires, but neither are they brilliant hires, and the best teams, especially those good year in and out, have brilliant GMs. We are letting a potentially brilliant GM go to bring in two mediocre GMs who are retreads and nothing more.

What you would expect is another great draft this year because Smith has largely run it and done the scouting, though he may be overruled by RR and Co., him to leave for somewhere else later in year or year after latest, and then draft prowess to drop appreciably after. I could be wrong, but that is what you would expect. Smith may be too young to be GM, but he should have at minimum been promoted to assistant GM and given huge pay raise to keep him here. We have no idea what is happening behind scenes, whether divergent philosophies, but a huge portion of it has to be setting up a rampart against meddling by THE DAN.[/quote]

Actually Danny knew what he had in Smith and liked him, I think Ron forced his hand on this one.

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

[QUOTE=SFREDSKIN;1275405]1st and Landon Collins, throw in Apke.[/QUOTE]


I cannot imagine Detroit wanting either of them. Apke should not even be in the league.

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

Well don't tell them that, just talk up the fact that he was the starting safety on one of the best defences in the league and avoid the part where he was most effective when getting 0 snaps

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;1275434]Actually Danny knew what he had in Smith and liked him, I think Ron forced his hand on this one.[/quote]

That's the whole point.

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

[quote=mooby;1275427]I'm starting to believe they had a philosophical difference on how to build the team. Guessing Kyle was the more pragmatic, slow and steady type, and Ron thinks we have an opportunity to win now and he wants to seize it. If that is the case, the marriage was doomed as soon as our "window" opened during the season last year.[/quote]

Coaches are generally always going to take the shorter view, especially versus a stable FO. That is why the FO should be above the coach, not vice versa, in most but not all cases. Smith almost certainly wants to keep up the program that is bringing in talent, three more years of drafting this well, we'd be styling, but we won't see the course through probably. The smart course is to identify a QB you like out of 1st round (assuming top 4 go off board early) and draft him and perhaps one other. I suspect we'll sign a big FA or trade for one.

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

[quote=Scalper;1275441]That's the whole point.[/quote]

So what was he supposed to do? Say, “hey Ron we are keeping Kyle”. He wouldn’t dare question Ron.

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

My bottom line on the whole FO question is this. RR took the keys to the kingdom away from Dan. He has the right to set it up the way he thinks it will work best. As a fan of the team first, being a fan of any coach/player/owner/staffer comes in a distance second to seeing this team become a functional, competitive pro football team.

So for everyone who is wringing their hands because RR hired x or fired y or didn't do z, what is your priority, and if you know better how to handle the whole of an NFL team, please, submit your application to RR.

Not meaning to stifle legit discussion, but some of the angst and doom is just over the top for the level of past performance these men have brought to various clubs.

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

Landon Collins fills a need and is a good in box safety. His contract dictates that he is not going anywhere this offseason and will be a starter. Curl and collins can be on the field at the same time. Especially if Curl becomes CB3 in nickel packages which we run a lot.

Coveted safeties are becoming multiple position players it seems. Curl has the chance to be that.

Collins has a place on this team and is a positive.

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

[quote=Scalper;1275442]Coaches are generally always going to take the shorter view, especially versus a stable FO. That is why the FO should be above the coach, not vice versa, in most but not all cases. Smith almost certainly wants to keep up the program that is bringing in talent, three more years of drafting this well, we'd be styling, but we won't see the course through probably. The [B]smart[/B] course is to identify a QB you like out of 1st round (assuming top 4 go off board early) and draft him and perhaps one other. I suspect we'll sign a big FA or trade for one.[/quote]

By "smart" you apparently mean "in accordance with my opinion." LOL

Your "smart" way has worked real well over the past 20 years, hasn't it? LOL

Sorry, but continuing with the guaranteed mediocrity is not "smart." Recognizing the reality of the window created by the rookie contracts of an excellent group of young players and striking before they become too expensive to keep them all is, indeed, "smart." RR's methodology looks much better to me than yours - and it is not a close call.

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

[quote=SunnySide;1275466]Landon Collins fills a need and is a good in box safety. His contract dictates that he is not going anywhere this offseason and will be a starter. Curl and collins can be on the field at the same time. Especially if Curl becomes CB3 in nickel packages which we run a lot.

Coveted safeties are becoming multiple position players it seems. Curl has the chance to be that.

Collins has a place on this team and is a positive.[/quote]

You could save $8m by making Collins a post June 1st cut I think , $19m saving if you do the same for Alex...... shifts cap hit to next year when maybe the cap is much bigger

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

[quote=SunnySide;1275466]Landon Collins fills a need and is a good in box safety. His contract dictates that he is not going anywhere this offseason and will be a starter. Curl and collins can be on the field at the same time. Especially if Curl becomes CB3 in nickel packages which we run a lot.

Coveted safeties are becoming multiple position players it seems. Curl has the chance to be that.

[B]Collins has a place on this team and is a positive.[/B][/quote]

[IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/l0MYDPoYmha3jOGxq/giphy.gif[/IMG]

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

[quote=SunnySide;1275466]Landon Collins fills a need and is a good in box safety. His contract dictates that he is not going anywhere this offseason and will be a starter. Curl and collins can be on the field at the same time. Especially if Curl becomes CB3 in nickel packages which we run a lot.

Coveted safeties are becoming multiple position players it seems. Curl has the chance to be that.

Collins has a place on this team and is a positive.[/quote]

Collins is not worth his contract and already has a younger, cheaper, and equally productive (if not more so) player at his position. Not sure if there's money to be saved letting Collins go but if there is do it. Trade him if possible first.

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

For whatever reason im questioning whether im reading this right.

2021 cap hit - whopping eye opening piss you off 17.2M
2021 dead cap if dropped - 13.8M

You drop him, you save 3.4M for 2021.

Id rather have Landon Collins for 3.4M vs having an addl 3.4M in cap .... especially considering we probably will have 10M or so in unused cap for 2021 anyway. Landon Collins is not a negative on the field and seems to be a good locker room leader in a young secondary.

He is not worth the 17.2M cap hit but he does bring value on and off the field.

besides I am not 100% convinced Curl will be a long term starter plus player we are just assuming he will be. I think we artificially elevate low draft young players a bit when they surpass our low expectations of them.

If Curl was a 2nd or 3rd rounder ... I think more people would be medium on him. But since we all love the underdog, diamond in the rough story ... we crown him. I like Curl dont get me wrong and do think he has a better chance of making an impact vs a bacari rambo or philip thomas .. but im not crowning Curl as a top 30 safety. Not yet.

[IMG]https://syracusefan.com/proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fmostlyalwayshome.files.wordpress.com%2F2018%2F11%2Fdennis-green.jpg%3Fw%3D351%26h%3D263&hash=45683802c961bb50d80b3f35b2d5f175[/IMG]

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

[quote=Chico23231;1275494][IMG]https://media.giphy.com/media/l0MYDPoYmha3jOGxq/giphy.gif[/IMG][/quote]

I am cleaning up diet soda off my desk now because of laughter.

That was awesome GIF

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

[quote=SunnySide;1275502]For whatever reason im questioning whether im reading this right.

2021 cap hit - whopping eye opening piss you off 17.2M
2021 dead cap if dropped - 13.8M

You drop him, you save 3.4M for 2021.

Id rather have Landon Collins for 3.4M vs having an addl 3.4M in cap .... especially considering we probably will have 10M or so in unused cap for 2021 anyway. Landon Collins is not a negative on the field and seems to be a good locker room leader in a young secondary.

He is not worth the 17.2M cap hit but he does bring value on and off the field.

[B]besides I am not 100% convinced Curl will be a long term starter plus player we are just assuming he will be. I think we artificially elevate low draft young players a bit when they surpass our low expectations of them. [/B]

[B]If Curl was a 2nd or 3rd rounder ... I think more people would be medium on him. But since we all love the underdog, diamond in the rough story ... we crown him. I like Curl dont get me wrong and do think he has a better chance of making an impact vs a bacari rambo or philip thomas .. but im not crowning Curl as a top 30 safety. Not yet.[/B][/quote]

[IMG]https://media.tenor.com/images/f8f4a8b37e8f99e4658fa3f4397c97c5/tenor.gif[/IMG]

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

The contract is what it is. I still like the player well enough though, Collins isn't going anywhere.

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

He is overpaid. He won't be moved this year. But I like the man himself. Good teammate and locerkroom guy. Hopefully he can contribute this year.

Please add a FS.

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

[quote=Number44;1275476]By "smart" you apparently mean "in accordance with my opinion." LOL

Your "smart" way has worked real well over the past 20 years, hasn't it? LOL

Sorry, but continuing with the guaranteed mediocrity is not "smart." Recognizing the reality of the window created by the rookie contracts of an excellent group of young players and striking before they become too expensive to keep them all is, indeed, "smart." RR's methodology looks much better to me than yours - and it is not a close call.[/quote]

No, it is not. We have a good DL and that is about it. We are nowhere near being a contender. And this miscalculation that we are "close" is in fact the mistake of the last decade or more, the inability to stay the long course because we never have a true GM taking the long view (or the owner plays GM), and are always deluded into thinking we are 1-2 players away. A GM that is the lackey of the coach doesn't solve this problem.

You won't find me loving the past regime, but trading for a retread QB is the mistake of old. McNabb, Smith, etc. It might win us a few more games, but won't get us anywhere near the mountaintop.

What has guaranteed mediocrity is owner meddling and not sticking to a long term plan of draft and develop. We won't have nearly as much talent coming in with two retread GMs and Smith on the way out.

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;1275448]So what was he supposed to do? Say, “hey Ron we are keeping Kyle”. He wouldn’t dare question Ron.[/quote]

THE DAN had no choice but to cede a very good but not great coach more power than he should have because this is the only way he would take the job. This is because THE DAN has such a bad reputation for obvious reasons we need not revisit. Short version, THE DAN ALWAYS meddles, so no good coach will take job without such power, especially after way Shanny was cornholed. Shanny was same problem as RR, a talented coach given too much FO and personnel power, and then meddled when it didn't produce the results. We are thus hostage to the meddling of THE DAN even now.

The point is, there has to be someone in the organization questioning the head coach, as even very good coaches usually are not personnel gurus and often become emotional about personnel decisions, making poor decisions out of a well-intended desire to win and the belief that they can coach guys up. You need a GM above the coach with the power to enforce the long view--like saying no to mortgaging the future yet again. With the talent Smith has acquired, and his pedigree, there should have been someone saying keep him over Hurney and Mayhew. I would much rather have Smith making long-term personnel decisions than RR, Hurney, and Mayhew. Organizations usually segregate these two roles and place the GM above the coach for very good reason, though in the best organizations the GM and coach work together without the GM being the bitch of the coach.

Saying that something is an improvement over past, as bad as this organization has been, does not mean it gets us where we need to be.

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

[quote=SunnySide;1275502]For whatever reason im questioning whether im reading this right.

2021 cap hit - whopping eye opening piss you off 17.2M
2021 dead cap if dropped - 13.8M

You drop him, you save 3.4M for 2021.

Id rather have Landon Collins for 3.4M vs having an addl 3.4M in cap .... especially considering we probably will have 10M or so in unused cap for 2021 anyway. Landon Collins is not a negative on the field and seems to be a good locker room leader in a young secondary.

He is not worth the 17.2M cap hit but he does bring value on and off the field.

besides I am not 100% convinced Curl will be a long term starter plus player we are just assuming he will be. I think we artificially elevate low draft young players a bit when they surpass our low expectations of them.

If Curl was a 2nd or 3rd rounder ... I think more people would be medium on him. But since we all love the underdog, diamond in the rough story ... we crown him. I like Curl dont get me wrong and do think he has a better chance of making an impact vs a bacari rambo or philip thomas .. but im not crowning Curl as a top 30 safety. Not yet.

[IMG]https://syracusefan.com/proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fmostlyalwayshome.files.wordpress.com%2F2018%2F11%2Fdennis-green.jpg%3Fw%3D351%26h%3D263&hash=45683802c961bb50d80b3f35b2d5f175[/IMG][/quote]

Another horrible decision by old FO. Collins gives everything he has, but he is the kind of safety that is less and less ideal in today's NFL, an in-the-box liability. We have a roster that is built the wrong may in many respects. You want your best OL to be LT and C, not RG, LOL. You want your best DBs to be a shutdown corner and roving FS, not a SS that can't cover or ever be left alone in coverage.

The question is what do you do? You can't go back in time. You cut Collins, you still need depth behind him, and we already need 15+ guys. See Curl thrive one more year before cutting Collins, especially with cap hit.

Same thing Scherff. How is our best OL a right G? We know how, but man. We have no MLB, no franchise LT, no shutdown corner, and we're paying a RG 15 milion+? But if you don't, just another hole.

I see Scherff get absolutely blown out in pass coverage too much to pay him that kind of money. But you can't let your only All Pro walk?

The previous mismanagement of this team still defies comprehension. We need to keep building primarily through the draft, and that means not surrendering draft picks for trade-ups or retreads. You have to eat it and sign Scherff, but make sure our high-contract guys are also at high-leverage positions going forward. When two of your biggest contracts are for a RG that can't pass block consistently, and a SS that can't cover, I mean man.

Re: Marty Hurney Thread
 

[quote=Scalper;1275515]
I see Scherff get absolutely blown out in pass coverage too much to pay him that kind of money. But you can't let your only All Pro walk?

The previous mismanagement of this team still defies comprehension. We need to keep building primarily through the draft, and that means not surrendering draft picks for trade-ups or retreads. You have to eat it and sign Scherff, but make sure our high-contract guys are also at high-leverage positions going forward. When two of your biggest contracts are for a RG that can't pass block consistently, and a SS that can't cover, I mean man.[/quote]

Preaching to the choir about vastly overpaying for dime a dozen in box safety and spending a No. 5 overall pick on a guard who you then have to pay 14M AAV when you can pay a Schweitzer 3M for slightly less production.

But what do you do, like you said. Create another hole/need? Not retain a top 10 guard? Collins is staying for 2021 due to contract so theres no decision there. If we retain Scherff, okay thats fine. If we dont and keep our 14M plus a comp pick, okay thats fine. There both not great options imo.