Commanders Post at The Warpath

Commanders Post at The Warpath (http://www.thewarpath.net/forum.php)

- Debating with the enemy (http://www.thewarpath.net/forumdisplay.php?f=75)

- - Obama Care (http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?t=30288)

Terrific the law passed another milestone. It's great to see intimidation does not work. All that barking and no bite!!!!

David Frum [URL="http://www.frumforum.com/waterloo"]said it best[/URL]:

[quote]Conservatives and Republicans today suffered their most crushing legislative defeat since the 1960s.

It’s hard to exaggerate the magnitude of the disaster. Conservatives may cheer themselves that they’ll compensate for today’s expected vote with a big win in the November 2010 elections. But:

(1) It’s a good bet that conservatives are over-optimistic about November – by then the economy will have improved and the immediate goodies in the healthcare bill will be reaching key voting blocs.

(2) So what? Legislative majorities come and go. This healthcare bill is forever. A win in November is very poor compensation for this debacle now.

So far, I think a lot of conservatives will agree with me. Now comes the hard lesson:

A huge part of the blame for today’s disaster attaches to conservatives and Republicans ourselves.

At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obama’s Waterloo – just as healthcare was Clinton’s in 1994.

Only, the hardliners overlooked a few key facts: Obama was elected with 53% of the vote, not Clinton’s 42%. The liberal block within the Democratic congressional caucus is bigger and stronger than it was in 1993-94. And of course the Democrats also remember their history, and also remember the consequences of their 1994 failure.

This time, when we went for all the marbles, we ended with none.

Could a deal have been reached? Who knows? But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994.

Barack Obama badly wanted Republican votes for his plan. Could we have leveraged his desire to align the plan more closely with conservative views? To finance it without redistributive taxes on productive enterprise – without weighing so heavily on small business – without expanding Medicaid? Too late now. They are all the law.

No illusions please: This bill will not be repealed. Even if Republicans scored a 1994 style landslide in November, how many votes could we muster to re-open the “doughnut hole” and charge seniors more for prescription drugs? How many votes to re-allow insurers to rescind policies when they discover a pre-existing condition? How many votes to banish 25 year olds from their parents’ insurance coverage? And even if the votes were there – would President Obama sign such a repeal?

We followed the most radical voices in the party and the movement, and they led us to abject and irreversible defeat.

There were leaders who knew better, who would have liked to deal. But they were trapped. Conservative talkers on Fox and talk radio had whipped the Republican voting base into such a frenzy that deal-making was rendered impossible. How do you negotiate with somebody who wants to murder your grandmother? Or – more exactly – with somebody whom your voters have been persuaded to believe wants to murder their grandmother?

I’ve been on a soapbox for months now about the harm that our overheated talk is doing to us. Yes it mobilizes supporters – but by mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead. The real leaders are on TV and radio, and they have very different imperatives from people in government. Talk radio thrives on confrontation and recrimination. When Rush Limbaugh said that he wanted President Obama to fail, he was intelligently explaining his own interests. What he omitted to say – but what is equally true – is that he also wants Republicans to fail. If Republicans succeed – if they govern successfully in office and negotiate attractive compromises out of office – Rush’s listeners get less angry. And if they are less angry, they listen to the radio less, and hear fewer ads for Sleepnumber beds.

So today’s defeat for free-market economics and Republican values is a huge win for the conservative entertainment industry. Their listeners and viewers will now be even more enraged, even more frustrated, even more disappointed in everybody except the responsibility-free talkers on television and radio. For them, it’s mission accomplished. For the cause they purport to represent, it’s Waterloo all right: ours.[/quote]

[quote=saden1;677173]This is what sadness and bitterness looks like? Fascinating.[/quote]Sadness for my son, your eventual kids, and both our eventual grandkids for having to work through, at a minimum, $ 18T of debt and wrest back individual freedoms from a federal government that has far over-expanded its bounds. Bitterness, maybe a little, because I'll have to strategize better to protect my families income/assets and make sure when my wife and I are gone what we leave to our family is hopefully protected from government confiscation.

Certainly this is not all the Dems or this Administration's fault, this has been brewing for decades. But Obama/Pelosi/Reid have done nothing to stem the tide and turn things around. This Administration and the majority in Congress could've been historic in putting the U.S. financial house in order. My fear is this bill and the current political agenda is the proverbial straw....

As I posted shortly after Obama's election, if he chose to govern from the center (as he campaigned) he could've made his presidency one of the best of the last 100 years. Unfortuntely we're seeing many of the same patterns of the Carter presidency.

A very sober assessment of the current situation. Coming from David Frum, of all people. He's probably one of the more reasonable Republicans that, unfortunately, don't get enough air time.

It will be interesting to see Mitt Romney campaign against this, provided that he or Sarah Palin, will surely get the nomination. This plan really tracks the recommendation of some of the old school Republicans like Bob Dole, yet it's been characterized as a government takeover. Either way November will be very interesting.

If VA doesn't win its lawsuit, I'll not pay my Federal taxes. I've already considered different approaches to this. I know several people who don't pay their Federal, just their state. I can no longer support the US for any reason. VA is my nation, not this POS government. Keep on playing stupid Democrat / Republican games. You'll see. Time is ticking.

[quote=Trample the Elderly;677229]If VA doesn't win its lawsuit, I'll not pay my Federal taxes. I've already considered different approaches to this. I know several people who don't pay their Federal, just their state. I can no longer support the US for any reason. VA is my nation, not this POS government. Keep on playing stupid Democrat / Republican games. You'll see. Time is ticking.[/quote]

The only thing you will accomplish by not paying your Federal Taxes is a prison sentence.

Also, if you want to talk about wasteful spending look at Fairfax County. I know you living in Varina, the virtual mega center of VA, you may not see how wasteful the smaller counties like Fairfax are.

[quote=mredskins;677246]The only thing you will accomplish by not paying your Federal Taxes is a prison sentence.

Also, if you want to talk about wasteful spending look at Fairfax County. I know you living in Varina, [B]the virtual mega center of VA[/B], you may not see how wasteful the smaller counties like Fairfax are.[/quote]

We're not stupid enough to pay 300K for a half an acre of former cow pasture in Varina. We'll sell you one though. You people in NOVA may think you're cosmopolitian because you live in cheap overpriced McMansions. We just think your suckers. I used to build those POS houses for 25K and we'd sell them to Yankees for 350K. Some of them in the West End went for 900k. When the market crashed all of you suckers took a bath. So come on down to Richmond. Oh, and bring your money with you. :laughing-

Perhaps I'll go to jail? That's up to a jury. Many people don't pay Federal.

[quote=Trample the Elderly;677260]We're not stupid enough to pay 300K for a half an acre of former cow pasture in Varina. We'll sell you one though. You people in NOVA may think you're cosmopolitian because you live in cheap overpriced McMansions. We just think your suckers. I used to build those POS houses for 25K and we'd sell them to Yankees for 350K. Some of them in the West End went for 900k. When the market crashed all of you suckers took a bath. So come on down to Richmond. Oh, and bring your money with you. :laughing-

Perhaps I'll go to jail? That's up to a jury. Many people don't pay Federal.[/quote]

No one called you stupid and I don't live in NOVA. Plus, I can also see you are real estate genius. Ever wonder why a studio in New york goes for what it does, it might just might have something to do with it's location.

[quote=Trample the Elderly;677229]If VA doesn't win its lawsuit, I'll not pay my Federal taxes. I've already considered different approaches to this. I know several people who don't pay their Federal, just their state. I can no longer support the US for any reason. VA is my nation, not this POS government. Keep on playing stupid Democrat / Republican games. You'll see. Time is ticking.[/quote]

You talk a tough game but deep down inside you know that we know that you ain't going to do nothing of the sort. Frankly, you're a tough talking pussycat. meowwww.

[quote=mredskins;677262]No one called you stupid and I don't live in NOVA. Plus, I can also see you are real estate genius. Ever wonder why a studio in New york goes for what it does, it might just might have something to do with it's location.[/quote]

My bank will not give people loans for property in New York City. That's like throwing money strait down the toilet. I get their calls every once in awhile. They drop NYC like it's supposed to impress the bumkins. You should hear them when I tell them, "Sorry, - - -Mortgage isn't going to give you a loan in NEW YORK CITY" New York, Hawaii, and California might as well be ocean liners with three fish in em each. They're going down buddy.

How is Fairfax not in Northern Virginia? Genius? You're probably right, I'm not a real estate genius. I can build and draft a house to code though. Can you?

[quote=saden1;677272]You talk a tough game but deep down inside you know that we know that you ain't going to do nothing of the sort. Frankly, you're a tough talking pussycat. meowwww.[/quote]

I'm weighing my options. As soon as the Obama signs that POS, VA, FLA, and a few others are filing suit. We already passed a law saying that no Virginian will have to get health insurance if he doesn't want it.

You of all people should know that a lot of people don't pay Federal taxes. You bill yourself as smarter than the average bear. I'm surprised that you didn't know that?

[quote=Beemnseven;677202]In a way, the Republicans share much of the blame here. Certainly not on this particular vote, as they all voted against it. But think back to when the GOP had control of the House, the Senate and the Presidency. How hard did they fight for Tort Reform? For allowing the purchase of health insurance plans across state lines? For dismantling some of the insane mandates that do nothing but hike the costs?

Nope. The Republicans didn't do any of that -- in fact, they did much worse. They added an unconstitutional, outrageously expensive entitlement of their very own! I'm speaking of the Medicare Prescription Drug Modernization and Improvement Act of 2003.

You have to hand it to the Democrats. When it comes to advancing their agenda, they are much more tenacious than the GOP has ever been. When was the last time the Republicans enacted major legislation that empowers the free market, the individual, that advances capitalism? Apart from some tax cuts here and there, I can't think of any.

As the saying goes, no matter who you vote for, government always gets elected.[/quote]
Nice post . Two parties ... 2 F's ... maybe D* ? As far as capitalism , they have lowered tax rates , income > from 70% to 28 % , cap gains taxes cut in half as well as dividend Taxation .[url=http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005921.html]History of the Income Tax in the United States — Infoplease.com[/url] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dividend_tax]Dividend tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url] . The death Tax ,,,, could hurt millions of small business owners again ....[url=http://wills.about.com/od/understandingestatetaxes/a/futureoftax.htm]What is the Future of the Estate Tax?[/url]. That is the type legilation that screws hard working Americans , so while you made some very good points , some of the Dems agenda costs hard working Americans .... millions .

[quote=Trample the Elderly;677276]I'm weighing my options. As soon as the Obama signs that POS, VA, FLA, and a few others are filing suit. We already passed a law saying that no Virginian will have to get health insurance if he doesn't want it.

You of all people should know that a lot of people don't pay Federal taxes. You bill yourself as smarter than the average bear. I'm surprised that you didn't know that?[/quote]

I'm perfectly fine with States enacting laws to prevent their citizens from having to get healthcare coverage if they don't want to...just don't expect to get that federal cheese. The more southern and mid-western states the better, I'll be happy to keep most of that ~90 billion a year all to ourselves.

TTL, there is quite a difference between people who don't make enough money to pay taxes and people who refuse to pay their taxes because of some gripe with the government. You will pay your taxes, you know it, I know it, and there is nothing you can do about it...even moving out of the country may not set you free from federal taxes. Death and Taxes...life certainties. Good luck with cheating Uncle Sam, you're going to need it.

[quote=saden1;677282]I'm perfectly fine with States enacting laws to prevent their citizens from having to get healthcare coverage if they don't want to...just don't expect to get that federal cheese. The more southern and mid-western states the better, I'll be happy to keep most of that ~90 billion a year all to ourselves.

TTL, there is quite a difference between people who don't make enough money to pay taxes and people who refuse to pay their taxes because of some gripe with the government. You will pay your taxes, you know it, I know it, and there is nothing you can do about it...even moving out of the country may not set you free from federal taxes. Death and Taxes...life certainties. Good luck with cheating Uncle Sam, you're going to need it.[/quote]

Actually no, you're wrong. Yes I will pay taxes, to the Commonwealth. I have no beef paying for roads and police, etc. There are a lot of people who have beaten the US in court and don't pay. There are also a few in prison. We'll see.