Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=Mattyk72;523015]Yes for one season he was clearly the one calling the shots. In the past it was never clear if it was him, Snyder, Gibbs, Snyder's father, the janitor, etc.[/quote]

I bet those 20 people that were fired by the Skins were calling the shots. That's most likely the reason they were let go.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

I still don't know why y'all are bashin' the FO for drafting 3 pass catchers in the 2nd round. I don't completely agree with the Fred Davis, but i guess the thought of running a WCO wit 2 passing catching TEs made them drool....but they also picked 2 WRs to A. hopefully have a Fitz/Boldin type tandum, and 2. they figured only one would be a gem, and the other would be a bust, so they were playing the numbers game.

And to the dumbass that said we passed on Avery and Jackson and look what they did, THEY ARE BOTH UNDER 6'0"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! we already have 2 receivers like that, we needed TALL receivers. so shut that shit up about passing on Jackson. y'all would've been screaming if we drafted a short receiver last year

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

the real problem w/ the FO is our scouts/talent evaluators.....that or our coaches can't coach...like what one person said about our WR coach....think he should be looked at and fired if he doesn't make progress by mid-way point this season

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=Mattyk72;523016]No it didn't cleanse him, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is we now know who to blame. It's all on him now. In the past that wasn't clear.[/quote]

I didn't mean you in particular said it cleansed him...it's just the general feeling I get that somehow becasue he was given that promotion that it re-starts the clock and he has several years to prove himself from here. I just don't see it that way. The way I see it is if he's had 10% influence or 90% influence in the direcetion of the team he was still a part of it. I know we beat the vinny topic to death on here...the bottom line is that all I want to know is that if he fails he will be fired...and the last 10+ years is evidence that he won't be. So that's frustrating to me and many others...

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

It's hard to blame the last 10 years on him when we don't even know the extent of his involvement in personnel decisions. Only Snyder really knows that. To me beginning last year was day 1 of the Vinny era and it's only fair to judge him from then forward.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=Mattyk72;523015]Yes for one season he was clearly the one calling the shots. In the past it was never clear if it was him, Snyder, Gibbs, Snyder's father, the janitor, etc.[/quote]

I don't see how there can be any doubt about what Cerrato's role is with the Redskins no matter what job title he's had. Between 2004-2007, when Joe Gibbs was Team President, the man most directly responsible for players added to the roster was Vinny Cerrato. How do we know this? Because Vinny has always dealt with the personnel aspect of football. Joe Gibbs knew Vinny's background, and decided to keep him in the front office.

If nothing else, Gibbs was a delegator. He knew what his own strengths and weaknesses were. I just don't see why it is such a mystery as to what the roles were in the area of player-personnel. Clearly, Vinny's job -- as it always has been -- was to assemble the film of all prospects, college or pro, grade each player, and come to Gibbs with a list of what he felt were the best players. Gibbs simply selected from that list. Yes, Gibbs had the ultimate say about which players to select. But, and this is key -- who supplied him the list?

Before Gibbs, during the Spurrier era, Vinny had the same role with even more authority. Prior to Spurrier, it was clear that Lil' Danny had his wish list. So in that instance, Vinny likely had no say one way or the other.

So again, I don't understand why some people find this situation so murky. When you look at the main components of a football organization, there's coaching, there's cap management, there's ownership/administrative duties, and then there's the player-personnel department. Apart from 2001 when Marty Schottenheimer fired Cerrato, no one during Lil' Danny's ownership of the team had more input in the realm of player-personnel than Vinny Cerrato.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=Mattyk72;523066]It's hard to blame the last 10 years on him when we don't even know the extent of his involvement in personnel decisions. Only Snyder really knows that. To me beginning last year was day 1 of the Vinny era and it's only fair to judge him from then forward.[/quote]

Well, for one VC has admitted he made a mistake w/ the whole AA saga and some of the other poor FA pickups. A huge mistake. He should be fired just for that decision.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=redsk1;523071]Well, for one VC has admitted he made a mistake w/ the whole AA saga and some of the other poor FA pickups. A huge mistake. He should be fired just for that decision.[/quote]

Exactly -- how nice would it have been to have LaRon Landry and Ryan Clark in the safety spots?

But no. We chose Adam Archuleta over Ryan Clark. If you had to rank all of the boneheaded moves by our front orifice, that's got to be #1.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=Beemnseven;523070]If nothing else, Gibbs was a delegator. He knew what his own strengths and weaknesses were. I just don't see why it is such a mystery as to what the roles were in the area of player-personnel. Clearly, Vinny's job -- as it always has been -- was to assemble the film of all prospects, college or pro, grade each player, and come to Gibbs with a list of what he felt were the best players. Gibbs simply selected from that list. Yes, Gibbs had the ultimate say about which players to select. But, and this is key -- who supplied him the list?[/quote]

Where did you hear that?

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=Beemnseven;523070]I don't see how there can be any doubt about what Cerrato's role is with the Redskins no matter what job title he's had. Between 2004-2007, when Joe Gibbs was Team President, the man most directly responsible for players added to the roster was Vinny Cerrato. How do we know this? Because Vinny has always dealt with the personnel aspect of football. Joe Gibbs knew Vinny's background, and decided to keep him in the front office.

If nothing else, Gibbs was a delegator. He knew what his own strengths and weaknesses were. I just don't see why it is such a mystery as to what the roles were in the area of player-personnel. Clearly, Vinny's job -- as it always has been -- was to assemble the film of all prospects, college or pro, grade each player, and come to Gibbs with a list of what he felt were the best players. Gibbs simply selected from that list. Yes, Gibbs had the ultimate say about which players to select. But, and this is key -- who supplied him the list?

Before Gibbs, during the Spurrier era, Vinny had the same role with even more authority. Prior to Spurrier, it was clear that Lil' Danny had his wish list. So in that instance, Vinny likely had no say one way or the other.

So again, I don't understand why some people find this situation so murky. When you look at the main components of a football organization, there's coaching, there's cap management, there's ownership/administrative duties, and then there's the player-personnel department. Apart from 2001 when Marty Schottenheimer fired Cerrato, no one during Lil' Danny's ownership of the team had more input in the realm of player-personnel than Vinny Cerrato.[/quote]

Based on what I know Vinny didn't make 100% of the personnel decisions prior to last year, not even close in fact. There's always been a committee approach involved and Snyder was always the tie breaker. The level of Vinny's input varied from decision to decision, but I'm glad your crystal ball is so clear.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=Beemnseven;523070]I don't see how there can be any doubt about what Cerrato's role is with the Redskins no matter what job title he's had. Between 2004-2007, when Joe Gibbs was Team President, the man most directly responsible for players added to the roster was Vinny Cerrato. How do we know this? Because Vinny has always dealt with the personnel aspect of football. Joe Gibbs knew Vinny's background, and decided to keep him in the front office.

If nothing else, Gibbs was a delegator. He knew what his own strengths and weaknesses were. I just don't see why it is such a mystery as to what the roles were in the area of player-personnel. Clearly, Vinny's job -- as it always has been -- was to assemble the film of all prospects, college or pro, grade each player, and come to Gibbs with a list of what he felt were the best players. Gibbs simply selected from that list. Yes, Gibbs had the ultimate say about which players to select. But, and this is key -- who supplied him the list?

Before Gibbs, during the Spurrier era, Vinny had the same role with even more authority. Prior to Spurrier, it was clear that Lil' Danny had his wish list. So in that instance, Vinny likely had no say one way or the other.

So again, I don't understand why some people find this situation so murky. When you look at the main components of a football organization, there's coaching, there's cap management, there's ownership/administrative duties, and then there's the player-personnel department. Apart from 2001 when Marty Schottenheimer fired Cerrato, no one during Lil' Danny's ownership of the team had more input in the realm of player-personnel than Vinny Cerrato.[/quote]

I agree 100%. I have nothing against Vinny personally, but as I said before I just don't believe he has been held to the same results oriented standards that everyone else in the Redskins organization has been for the last 10+ years. And if I really believed that this is year 2 of a 4 year window that he had to produce or else I would probably be more patient. However, history says that is not the case and if they don't win he will just be repackaged in a new role alongside another high profile coach. Basically, I will believe that Vinny is accountable when I see Snyder stand up like a man and fire him...

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=Mattyk72;523075]Based on what I know Vinny didn't make 100% of the personnel decisions prior to last year, not even close in fact. There's always been a committee approach involved and Snyder was always the tie breaker. The level of Vinny's input varied from decision to decision, but I'm glad your crystal ball is so clear.[/quote]

My interpritation of Beems post was that even though Vinny did not have final call on players, he prepared the reports and grades on many of the players that Gibbs or Snyder chose between. Gibbs and Spurrier were coaches not scouts...they had to rely on someone to compile the lists of possible targets. I don't think the Redskins even deny that Vinny had a key role in that process. Gibbs credited Vinny often when talking about a player they aquired. I don't blame vinny for every bad decison of the last 10 years, but I do believe he has played a significant role in the redskins personel decisions since Snyder purchase the team, so in my eyes we can never have a clean start as long as he is a part of it.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=celts32;523082]My interpritation of Beems post was that even though Vinny did not have final call on players, he prepared the reports and grades on many of the players that Gibbs or Snyder chose between. Gibbs and Spurrier were coaches not scouts...they had to rely on someone to compile the lists of possible targets. I don't think the Redskins even deny that Vinny had a key role in that process. Gibbs credited Vinny often when talking about a player they aquired. I don't blame vinny for every bad decison of the last 10 years, but I do believe he has played a significant role in the redskins personel decisions since Snyder purchase the team, so in my eyes we can never have a clean start as long as he is a part of it.[/quote]

Ok I can see what you're saying

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

[quote=celts32;523082]My interpritation of Beems post was that even though Vinny did not have final call on players, he prepared the reports and grades on many of the players that Gibbs or Snyder chose between. Gibbs and Spurrier were coaches not scouts...they had to rely on someone to compile the lists of possible targets. I don't think the Redskins even deny that Vinny had a key role in that process. Gibbs credited Vinny often when talking about a player they aquired. I don't blame vinny for every bad decison of the last 10 years, but I do believe he has played a significant role in the redskins personel decisions since Snyder purchase the team, so in my eyes we can never have a clean start as long as he is a part of it.[/quote]

Very good point. However we'll likely never know how many times Vinny provided a good recommendation that they declined to follow up on. Wilbon has always said that the team would be better off if it had listened to him more over the years. Don't know if he has any specific references to back that up though.

Re: Cerrato wants more draft picks
 

The issue with the redskins is not Vinny Cerrato - it's a lack of real leadership. Right now, snyder wings it too much with important decisions. He's a spur-of-the-moment type of guy and doesn't plan enough. This is fine as an owner, but not good with the type of involvement he has with the organization. And he definitely cannot lead this organization with his type of attitude. Cerrato is fine for what does, but there needs to be someone there that has a plan and stays committed to and confident in that plan. A plan that the leader believes in. How can the players and anyone in the redskins organization believe in the team, if there isn't anyone there that can lead them with a plan and direction that they believe in?

Snyder for all of his passion and energy he has for the team, cannot be the ONE. He needs someone else to do this and just let himself be Dan Snyder.

The problem is two-fold and also a double-edged sword.
1. Major issues with the team are handled and decided in certain ways and policies, decided by Snyder. And after a small amount of time, when these ways or policies don't seem to be working - then a major change of direction is decided on by Snyder because the old ways don't seem to be working.
2. The players and individuals in the redskins organization cannot believe or stay committed to a way of doing things because a change of direction always seems to be right around the corner. And this lack of commitment makes everything that is attempted - to not work.