Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=SmootSmack;873920][B]He's had some gaffes for sure, but that comes with being in the game so long.[/B] But is he really terrible? Broncos had a lot of 4th-7th round picks that had/have successful careers.[/quote]

I have absolutely, or rather exactly, no idea what this means? Are you saying Mike was a lousy sideline manager (clock, timeouts, challenges, offensive tempo, scheme, and general leadership) over the last two seasons because he has so much experience?

Or are we still (trying) to debate whether Mike has any business whatsoever acting as a "co-general manager" and play a significant role in personnel?

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

The latter

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=The Goat;874122]I have absolutely, or rather exactly, no idea what this means? Are you saying Mike was a lousy sideline manager (clock, timeouts, challenges, offensive tempo, scheme, and general leadership) over the last two seasons because he has so much experience?

Or are we still (trying) to debate whether Mike has any business whatsoever acting as a "co-general manager" and play a significant role in personnel?[/quote]

He's talking about his draft record.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=celts32;873984][url=http://washingtonexaminer.com/sports/nfl/2010/12/thom-loverro-shanahan-no-rough-draft]Thom Loverro: For Shanahan, no rough draft | Thom Loverro | NFL | Washington Examiner[/url]

Shanny not being able to draft is a complete myth that people who don't like Shanny cling to...[/quote]


I've always known the guy could draft and is one of the best in the league at doing so. A couple years back, this dude over on ES broke down picks between Shanahan and Bellicheck over the past decade. Shanahan came away with a better record in terms of landing success. However, when you hear people talk, Bellicheck is the master at personnel while Shanahan makes a bad GM.

Just like some of the guys up here. Bitching about Mike Williams, Willie Parker, Larry Johnson, etc... What they don't do is stop and think about the people available at the time with the market being restricted the way it was. Everybody was hemmed up on the restricted free agent tags assigned by their teams in the uncapped year that they had nothing really available. People want him to turn something out of nothing. Become the modern day Jesus. The guy can only do so much and of course he's going to make personnel mistakes, they all do.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=NC_Skins;874128]I've always known the guy could draft and is one of the best in the league at doing so. A couple years back, this dude over on ES broke down picks between Shanahan and Bellicheck over the past decade. Shanahan came away with a better record in terms of landing success. However, when you hear people talk, Bellicheck is the master at personnel while Shanahan makes a bad GM.

Just like some of the guys up here. Bitching about Mike Williams, Willie Parker, Larry Johnson, etc... What they don't do is stop and think about the people available at the time with the market being restricted the way it was. Everybody was hemmed up on the restricted free agent tags assigned by their teams in the uncapped year that they had nothing really available. People want him to turn something out of nothing. Become the modern day Jesus. The guy can only do so much and of course he's going to make personnel mistakes, they all do.[/quote]

Yep let's try and let the cake bake for once

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=NC_Skins;874128]I've always known the guy could draft and is one of the best in the league at doing so. A couple years back, this dude over on ES broke down picks between Shanahan and Bellicheck over the past decade. Shanahan came away with a better record in terms of landing success. However, when you hear people talk, Bellicheck is the master at personnel while Shanahan makes a bad GM.

Just like some of the guys up here. Bitching about Mike Williams, Willie Parker, Larry Johnson, etc... What they don't do is stop and think about the people available at the time with the market being restricted the way it was. Everybody was hemmed up on the restricted free agent tags assigned by their teams in the uncapped year that they had nothing really available. People want him to turn something out of nothing. Become the modern day Jesus. The guy can only do so much and of course he's going to make personnel mistakes, they all do.[/quote]There's a difference between saying that a guy is competent in the draft and saying he's one of the best drafters in the league. In Shanahan's case, only one is true.

If we want to get technical, Vinny Cerrato was a pretty good drafter as well. Couldn't build a team without trading picks for frivolous parts, but I have no real issue with his draft work.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=GTripp0012;874143]There's a difference between saying that a guy is competent in the draft and saying he's one of the best drafters in the league. In Shanahan's case, only one is true.

[B]If we want to get technical, Vinny Cerrato was a pretty good drafter as well. [/B]Couldn't build a team without trading picks for frivolous parts, but I have no real issue with his draft work.[/quote]


Without doing a lot of research, I just cannot agree with a statement which asserts that Vinnie Boombatz was a good drafter.
[INDENT]Devin Thomas and Malcom Kelly

Patrick Ramsey - - in conjunction with Danny Boy to be sure because Danny Boy "discovered" Ramsey[/INDENT]
Those misses - - with high picks in the draft - - were so egregious that you have to wonder if the Skins were using a Magic-8 Ball to make the final decisions on whom to select.

Dick Vermeil once said that unless a team's first round pick made it to the Pro Bowl in the first three or four years of his career, then the pick was not the right one. I think that is an overstatement but it does provide a rather severe measurement tool for draft picks. I don't think Cerrato's picks measure up.

Oh, and if he is a "good drafter" how come he remains unemployed by any NFL teams...?

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=GTripp0012;874143]There's a difference between saying that a guy is competent in the draft and saying he's one of the best drafters in the league. In Shanahan's case, only one is true.

[B]If we want to get technical, Vinny Cerrato was a pretty good drafter as well. Couldn't build a team without trading picks for frivolous parts, but I have no real issue with his draft work.[/B][/quote]

Wait, what?!? You're not serious I hope.

2000 draft-8 picks, 2 starters (Arrington, Samuels), 6 remaining players made no NFL impact and are out of the league.
2002 draft-10 picks, 3 role players/backups (Ramsey, Betts, Cartwright), 7 players no NFL impact/out of NFL.
2003 draft-3 picks, 1 starter/role player (Dockery), 2 no impact/out of NFL.
2004 draft-4 picks, 2 starters (Taylor, Cooley) 2 no impact/out of NFL.
2005 draft-6 picks, 2 starters (Campbell, Rogers), 4 no impact/out of NFL.
2006 draft-6 picks, 3 role players/backups (McIntosh, Doughty, Golston), 3 no impact/out of NFL.
2007 draft-6 picks, 1 starter (Landry), 5 no impact/out of NFL.
2008 draft-10 picks, 0 starters, 1 performer (Davis), 3 role players (Thomas, Rinehart, Jackson), 8 no impact/out of NFL.
2009 draft-6 picks, 1 starter (Orakpo), 1 backup (Barnes), 4 no impact/out of NFL.
2010 draft-1 pick (2009 supplemental), out of NFL.

So by my rudimentary math, that's 54 picks, 9 starters (10 if you want to include Davis), 11 backups and [B]34[/B] players that made no NFL impact and were out of the league within 3 years of being drafted.

I'd love to read how you spin this to 'a pretty good drafter' and 'no problems with his draft work'.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

Nice work Pain, no real way to refute any of that.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

isnt Vinny still collecting unemployment? doesnt speak too well of the job he did

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

The big problem with Vinny was how he didn't value picks and traded them away like nothing.

He had less picks to deal with, so that makes the mistakes stand out even more.

Seems like he was good for 1-2 quality players per draft (usually from the top rounds), but otherwise I thought his drafts were pretty bad.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Mattyk;874269]The big problem with Vinny was how he didn't value picks and traded them away like nothing.

He had less picks to deal with, so that makes the mistakes stand out even more.

Seems like he was good for 1-2 quality players per draft (usually from the top rounds), but otherwise I thought his drafts were pretty bad.[/quote]

Averaging 1 starter and 1 backup per draft over his tenure is pretty awful.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Mattyk;874269][B]The big problem with Vinny was how he didn't value picks and traded them away like nothing.[/B]

He had less picks to deal with, so that makes the mistakes stand out even more.


Seems like he was good for 1-2 quality players per draft (usually from the top rounds), but otherwise I thought his drafts were pretty bad.[/quote][FONT=Arial]I totally disagee - the only years that Vinny had [/FONT][FONT=Arial]sole responsibility for the draft was 2008 and 2009. He used plenty of picks in '08, but had numerous busts, including Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly. Our cavalier attitude toward draft picks hit its high water mark during Gibbs 2.0, when Joe Gibbs had final say on all football/personnel matters. To review, under Gibbs we traded the following picks that I'm aware of:[/FONT][LIST][*][FONT=Arial]A future 2nd rounder for a 3rd rounder that ended up being Chris Cooley (good trade)[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 2nd rounder tossed in as part of the Champ Bailey for Clinton Portis trade (Denver should have given us the extra pick!)[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 3rd rounder for Mark Brunell, when he was days from being released by the Jaguars[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A future 1st and a 3rd to move into #25 slot to select Jason Campbell[/FONT]
[*][FONT=Arial]Two 2nd rounders and a 6th to move into position to draft Rocky McIntosh early in the 2nd round[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 3rd and a 4th for Brandon Lloyd (compounding that, Gibbs ripped up the last year of his contract and gave Lloyd an extension before he ever played a down here)[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 3rd and a 4th for T.J. Duckett (for a 3rd string back!!!!)[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 5th for Pete Kendall (good trade)[/FONT][/LIST][FONT=Arial]That is A LOT of traded picks. I'm probably missing others, but you get my drift - Gibbs deserves a huge amount of blame for tossing away draft picks, and we are still paying for that to this day.[/FONT]

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=SouperMeister;874290][FONT=Arial]I totally disagee - the only years that Vinny had [/FONT][FONT=Arial]sole responsibility for the draft was 2008 and 2009. He used plenty of picks in '08, but had numerous busts, including Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly. Our cavalier attitude toward draft picks hit its high water mark during Gibbs 2.0, when Joe Gibbs had final say on all football/personnel matters. To review, under Gibbs we traded the following picks that I'm aware of:[/FONT][LIST][*][FONT=Arial]A future 2nd rounder for a 3rd rounder that ended up being Chris Cooley (good trade)[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 2nd rounder tossed in as part of the Champ Bailey for Clinton Portis trade (Denver should have given us the extra pick!)[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 3rd rounder for Mark Brunell, when he was days from being released by the Jaguars[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A future 1st and a 3rd to move into #25 slot to select Jason Campbell[/FONT]
[*][FONT=Arial]Two 2nd rounders and a 6th to move into position to draft Rocky McIntosh early in the 2nd round[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 3rd and a 4th for Brandon Lloyd (compounding that, Gibbs ripped up the last year of his contract and gave Lloyd an extension before he ever played a down here)[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 3rd and a 4th for T.J. Duckett (for a 3rd string back!!!!)[/FONT][*][FONT=Arial]A 5th for Pete Kendall (good trade)[/FONT][/LIST][FONT=Arial]That is A LOT of traded picks. I'm probably missing others, but you get my drift - Gibbs deserves a huge amount of blame for tossing away draft picks, and we are still paying for that to this day.[/FONT][/quote]

I was trashed here when I said it at the time and still stand behind it, the Joe Gibbs 2.0 years set this franchise back 5-10 years. Vinny was a part of it but he did the franchise no favors long term with his decisions.

Re: Roster transition in the Shanny era
 

[quote=Paintrain;874311]I was trashed here when I said it at the time and still stand behind it, the Joe Gibbs 2.0 years set this franchise back 5-10 years. Vinny was a part of it but he did the franchise no favors long term with his decisions.[/quote]

If I'm not mistaken, Vinny dealt more with the contracts, right? I just seem to remember him giving people ridiculous contracts, even when Gibbs called the shots in regards to personnel.