Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

[QUOTE=RiggoRules;216883]Up until kick off last night, I was pretty public in defending #8.

Based on the performance against Minny, I didn't think the bench Brunnell crowd had much credibility.

Now, in the COMPLETE CONTEXT OF BOTH GAMES, I'm coming down on the other side. We need to bring in JC now.

JC can't possibly do worse than what we've seen from #8.

The Cowboys are not a good team. In some ways, it may be better that we lost. It is easier to learn from mistakes and make changes after a major loss than a win.

And oh btw, CowboyKiller, please leave the politics and death out of this discussion.

I want to say this firmly and with as little anger as possible.

Enough people on this board have been touched directly and given a great deal to their country in the war. It isn't some abstract analogy for many. Such a comparison is most highly disrespectful and is an amazing display of ignorance. It trivializes something that is probably just another story on the evening news to you.

Having differing views on the war are an American right. But please show some respect and have some sympathy for those who serve and sacrafice -- especially those who give the most -- the families.[/QUOTE]

Very nice post. I don't entirely agree with the first part. I think Campbell can do worse, but well handled on the second part

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

Start the future, now!

Anyone else notice the frustration on Moss when Brunell failed to see him open?

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

[quote=RiggoRules;216883]Up until kick off last night, I was pretty public in defending #8.

Based on the performance against Minny, I didn't think the bench Brunnell crowd had much credibility.

Now, in the COMPLETE CONTEXT OF BOTH GAMES, I'm coming down on the other side. We need to bring in JC now.

JC can't possibly do worse than what we've seen from #8.

The Cowboys are not a good team. In some ways, it may be better that we lost. It is easier to learn from mistakes and make changes after a major loss than a win.

And oh btw, CowboyKiller, please leave the politics and death out of this discussion.

I want to say this firmly and with as little anger as possible.

Enough people on this board have been touched directly and given a great deal to their country in the war. It isn't some abstract analogy for many. Such a comparison is most highly disrespectful and is an amazing display of ignorance. It trivializes something that is probably just another story on the evening news to you.

Having differing views on the war are an American right. But please show some respect and have some sympathy for those who serve and sacrafice -- especially those who give the most -- the families.[/quote] Politics and death? C'mon man, lighten up. I mean, was this statement really necessary? You know my friend, the only ignorance being displayed here is your "ASS"umption that I am not being directly affected by this war! You know nothing about me!!! You should learn to speak for yourself in situations like this, not for all the people you "ASS"ume feel the same as you!!!

Re: Brunell Solely Responsible for Loss?
 

i wonder how many completely shitty offensive performances its going to take before gibbs calls the shots again!!

Re: Brunell Solely Responsible for Loss?
 

[quote=hurrykaine;216895]Let's forgive this loss. Did anyone honestly believe we could beat Dallas without Portis playing? Did you think Ladell "I'll go down at the slightest trip" Betts was going to run riot over the Cowboy defense?

If Brunell stinks it up against Houston like he did in the Cleveland game of 2004, then there is a legitimate case to bench him.

I see no reason to give up on the season until about week 7, if at which point we're 2-5 or worse, then its over.[/quote]

5-6.......10-6..........never give up!!!

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

Ok, let's not get into a pissing match with each other here.

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

PLEASE for god sakes START CAMPBELL.. If any of you for one moment think MB would do anything more than sub par performances with the MOST ELITE OLine in the league you are kidding yourselves. MB IS AND WILL ALWAYS BE A SUB PAR QB. Not only can he not throw long ball anymore without floating it 80% of the time. He can barely make short passes without throwing them to HIGH or way to LOW.

His arm is spent and he looks like he has absolutely NO confidence in throwing the ball at all. There is NO threat in our passing game with MB under center. EVEN with one of the faster and better wide reciever groups in the NFL atm.

The BIGGEST shit kicker is if we do not bench MB right now than we will be stuck with him for at least 3 more games. He WILL have a decent game against a bottom of the barrel team like Houston. But if we are smart we will go ahead and put Campbell in now and let him get in there to build his confidence and make teams FEAR some kind of passing attack. WHICH THEY DO NOT FEAR ATM.

If you think benching MB atm would be ending our season early YOU are DEAD wrong. I truely believe if we get start Campbell now we will be MUCH better off not only this year but many years to come. And if i am wrong than may GOD somehow help us because we will be in for a long and dissapointing few years to come.

AND if someone hear has Campbell's phone# please tell him to go to church this week with Gibbs and praise the lord with him.

Re: Brunell Solely Responsible for Loss?
 

The time to go with Campbell is the point on which you give up on the season. You want to give him ample chance to succeed, and if the expectations are Super Bowl, he will likely fail. If it's about winning games, he has a better chance to succeed.

As long as we are playing for the playoffs, I want no. 8 back there.

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

[quote=TAFKAS;216920]Ok, let's not get into a pissing match with each other here.[/quote]

I agree, this is about football. No harm intended.

Re: Brunell Solely Responsible for Loss?
 

I know it's not as cut and dry as this but:

Two HUGE problems on offense were poor O-line performance and poor QB performance.

Jason Campbell is more mobile and probably a better Quarterback physically then Brunell... and that's the problem. Brunells balls quack... they no longer get there. I can also remember several times when Brunell decided not to step in the pocket and instead half-ass scramble and fall down. Physically Brunell cannot play in the NFL anymore. I'm sorry.

If we put in a more mobile Quarterback who can get the Ball downfield... [B]WE CAN LET OUR PLAYERS MAKE PLAYS.[/B] Santana Moss had what 1 catch in the first three quarters? In-excusable... I think Saunders is afraid of utilizing Brunell to go downfield.. and it looks sloppy.

Campbell may not be the Cure-all, but he probably is an improvement.

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

[quote=Big C;216893]give brunell one game with a healthy portis and see what happens, if he still sucks then bench him[/quote]

Brunell sucked for the last half of last season, but it was masked by Portis carrying the offense. I don't think whatever success Portis has should be carried over to Mark Brunell.

And for the people claiming that the entire offense is out of sync, I don't disagree with that statement, but poor blocking and rushing have nothing to do with Brunell throwing balls three yards short of wide open receivers. Let's see how happy the hundred million dollar trio of receivers is, when they have a combined 700 yards and two touchdowns between them, by week eight.

Re: Bench Brunell
 

[quote=pdid5000;216381]I'm almost there with ya, I'll give him one more week against the texans, if he they lose to David Carr, I'd say try Campbell.[/quote]

I don't agree. I think there was a lot going on out there in Dallas and Mark was trying hard to protect the football and not make it worse than it was. He was playing conservative, which obviously did NOT help us, but who's calling the plays here. From where I was sitting it was run, run, run.. and third and eight and we can't make the completion. Why were we running on the first three downs if it wasn't working? We did it all night long. To me, that is a coaching issue and it isn't just Mark's problem. This is a team and everyone has to trust each other. Right now, it's looking like the players have very little trust in the play calls. I think THAT is the problem.

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

For those who think staying with MB is the right move I have a question for you:

When is the right time for the switch? It has been said that it could take up to 2 full seasons to learn this offense. Why are we wasting time with a qb that probably wont even be in the league in 2 years? If its gonna take that long dont you think we should go with JC now?

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

[quote=gibbsisgod;216932]For those who think staying with MB is the right move I have a question for you:

When is the right time for the switch? It has been said that it could take up to 2 full seasons to learn this offense. Why are we wasting time with a qb that probably wont even be in the league in 2 years? If its gonna take that long dont you think we should go with JC now?[/quote]

If we go with JC now you can kiss the SB goodbye for this year, and maybe next. Our team needs to regroup and start clicking. I don't see this as just a QB problem at all. There is a lot more going on here, and changing the QB isn't going to fix it.

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

[quote=hesscl34;216939]If we go with JC now you can kiss the SB goodbye for this year, and maybe next. Our team needs to regroup and start clicking. I don't see this as just a QB problem at all. There is a lot more going on here, and changing the QB isn't going to fix it.[/quote]

No it's not just a QB problem, but that's the most glaring one at the moment. Many, not all, but many of our offensive woes can be directly traced back to Mark Brunell. And if we keep Brunell in there, you can say with 100% certainty we can kiss the Super Bowl goodbye.

At least with Campbell he's an unknown commodity at this point. Which honestly isn't a bad thing.

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

[quote=RedskinRat;216905]Start the future, now!

Anyone else notice the frustration on Moss when Brunell failed to see him open?[/quote]

That was ONE play and we were losing bad at the point.

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

[quote=12thMan;216942]No it's not just a QB problem, but that's the most glaring one at the moment. Many, not all, but many of our offensive woes can be directly traced back to Mark Brunell. And if we keep Brunell in there, you can say with 100% certainty we can kiss the Super Bowl goodbye.

At least with Campbell he's an unknown commodity at this point. Which honestly isn't a bad thing.[/quote]
[COLOR=black] [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]NO QB can survive with that kind of penalty calling. We lost 100 yards alone in penalties. F$#ing holding calls and interference calls, same shit that got us in the pre-season... COME ON!!! This isn't highshcool! The TEAM lost this game - period. [/COLOR]

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

[QUOTE=Southpaw;216927][B]Brunell sucked for the last half of last season, but it was masked by Portis carrying the offense[/B]. I don't think whatever success Portis has should be carried over to Mark Brunell.
[/QUOTE]

Bingo. The problems we see now did not start this past August, folks. It goes back to around mid season last year. By week 17 against the Eagles, Brunell's problems were in plain sight. From that game forward, Brunell has been bad for the past nine games that he's been in uniform.

Portis, the D, and an extremely athletic receiver in Santana Moss -- who adjusted to several poorly underthrown passes -- glossed over what were obvious glitches in quarterback play that was overlooked by jaded fans who were lost in the glory of the playoff run.

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

The fact is Brunell has been subpar for 2 games this season and at least the final 2 games of last season.

Coming from an objective voice, Madden, stated it best, its the personell. More specifically, the QB position. Now, that's not to say that it's all his fault. It's not. Don't you think other teams know that he can't move, run, throw like he used to. That's why teams blitz us. We don't have a playmaker at the qb position to beat it.

For those who blame Saunders, look at his resume. It's pretty good. Maybe we don't have the QB. His system works.

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

Gotta put him on the bench and go with Campbell. What did we waste a #1 pick for if we are never going to use him? Now's a good time as any. I can't take another week of watching MB patt the ball 4 times and throw a 4yd pass or toss it out of bounds.

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

[quote=hesscl34;216939]If we go with JC now you can kiss the SB goodbye for this year, and maybe next. Our team needs to regroup and start clicking. I don't see this as just a QB problem at all. There is a lot more going on here, and changing the QB isn't going to fix it.[/quote] OH come on now, get effen real. Do you really believe that MB is going to win a SB? Did you watch the same game as I did last night cause Brunell cant stretch a defense and the Cowboys played 8 in the box all night because Brunell CANT beat a team deep. Portis will have a horrible season if brunell stays in at QB. teams will still play 8 in the box and dare MB to beat us. We will be 2-5 before we know it if we stay with MB. And then what, try to get Campbell to save our season? Why not give the guy a shot? This is A perfect time to see what JC has got. We should beat this team with one arm tied behind our back. I'll bet JC can throw the ball more than 30 yards.

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

Brunell rolled into a sack at least a couple of times. Instead of stepping up in the pocket.

I don't know if we should bench Brunell. I can say that Campbell should be ready. I don't know if he is, but he is a first round pick and we gave up a LOT to get him.

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

I think the fact that we play Houston and then Tennessee at home makes it an ideal time to get Campbell in there. Two defenses that he should be able to beat, with the first being on the road so he won't have the pressure of disappointing home fans. The timing couldn't be any better for Campbell and Brunell looks cooked.
After last night's performance I'm willing to rethink my stance on trying to trade for Favre.

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

[QUOTE=hesscl34;216939]If we go with JC now you can kiss the SB goodbye for this year, and maybe next. Our team needs to regroup and start clicking. I don't see this as just a QB problem at all. There is a lot more going on here, and changing the QB isn't going to fix it.[/QUOTE]

The sad truth is, the Super Bowl was never in reach for this team.

A quarterback who can make defenses pay for blitzing every single down changes the complexion of the game immensely. Yeah, Campbell will throw more picks than Brunell. But right now, defenses know exactly what we're going to do, when we're going to do it. They know we can't pass if you blitz so much as ONE player at Brunell -- and they'll not suffer on iota in secondary coverage. Sooo, every D-coordinator who watches tape of the Skins offense instantly knows that they can put 7 or 8 in the box to send Brunell into sheer panic, stuff whatever semblance of a running game there is, and none of their receivers will catch a pass.

There are many cracks in this foundation it's not even funny.

Sometimes it's just that simple. Find a quarterback who can make defenses pay.

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

I'm quite the Brunell supporter and still believe that our problems are far beyond the QB position, but I do also understand that last night really made the naysayers appear to be right about Mark Brunell. Let's face it, a loss against any other team would not be as bad as it is against Dallas. Do I think Brunell is playing Super Bowl caliber football? Not in the least! Neither is the offensive line, defensive line, or the secondary. I believe Portis means alot more to our team than what was previously thought. I believe Springs is also extremely important, but I also am starting to see that some of the guys we lost on our D this year were better than what maybe we had given them credit for.

Do I believe starting another QB over Brunell is going to be the key? Not unless we get better pass protection. Then..if our pass protection improves, then why take Brunell out unless he completely stinks it up with having loads of time to pass.

I don't believe changing the QB is going to give this team that much of a spark and if we do, it's going to be Collins that comes in anyway....I'm not really looking forward to that!!

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

[quote=hesscl34;216947]
[COLOR=black]NO QB can survive with that kind of penalty calling. We lost 100 yards alone in penalties. F$#ing holding calls and interference calls, same shit that got us in the pre-season... COME ON!!! This isn't highshcool! The TEAM lost this game - period. [/COLOR][/quote]

No one is arguing that the entire team(at least the entire offense) played like ass last night, but to think that Brunell will somehow magically start playing better isn't very likely. He's not a young quarterback taking his lumps and learning the game. He's an old quarterback, whose skills are deteriorating because of several past injuries and age.

I'd much rather watch Campbell take his lumps and learn the system, with the possibility of developing into a great quarterback, than watch Brunell run scared for probably the last season of his career.

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

[quote=Southpaw;216968]No one is arguing that the entire team(at least the entire offense) played like ass last night, but to think that Brunell will somehow magically start playing better isn't very likely. He's not a young quarterback taking his lumps and learning the game. He's an old quarterback, whose skills are deteriorating because of several past injuries and age.

I'd much rather watch Campbell take his lumps and learn the system, with the possibility of developing into a great quarterback, than watch Brunell run scared for probably the last season of his career.[/quote]

I just can't believe the hate for MB. It is silly. I really think he was doing exactly what was expected of him - by the coaches.

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

All this coaching power and NO GAME PLAN!

If this season is a PUNT, then put Campbell in!

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

I'm having a hard time saying the offensive struggles are ALL Brunnell's fault. The Offensive line looks horrible, way too many penalties, no Portis, new play book.

I dont think anybody thought we would come into this season hitting full stride offensively with the entire offensive roster learning a new complicated play book....and they haven't. I also thought they'd look better than this. I figured we'd atleast be able to run the football, get Moss involved and play great defense...we've done none of that.

That said...if we're going to struggle offensively why not struggle with your future QB not your past one? How much worse can it really be?

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

[quote=Sammy Baugh Fan;216366]I don't care what his fan's say
He SUCKS!

Put Campbell in. What's to lose?[/quote]

What's to lose?
- Football games
- A promising young QB (a la the Patrick Ramsey treatment)
- Team confidence (change players every time the team plays poorly)
- Our faith in our team
- Our sense of judgement between Reality football and Fantasy football (dealing with people instead of statistics)

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

I think we all know why we are playing so bad: he mocked the thread by Gibbssbbig, and now all the powers of the universe are against us. We're all sinners and this is our punishment. REPENT and we might end up with a sure-thing pick in the 2007 draft.

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

[quote=hesscl34;216970]I just can't believe the hate for MB. It is silly. I really think he was doing exactly what was expected of him - by the coaches.[/quote]

I'm 1000% sure the coaches, especially Al Saunders were not expecting 197 yards(80 of which came in the last 4 minutes when Dallas was playing prevent defense) 0 TD's, 1 Int, 59.8 QB rating, and 2 for 14 on third down.

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

[quote=Dogtag;216973]What's to lose?
- Football games
- A promising young QB (a la the Patrick Ramsey treatment)
- Team confidence (change players every time the team plays poorly)
- Our faith in our team
- Our sense of judgement between Reality football and Fantasy football (dealing with people instead of statistics)[/quote]

Ummm..
- They're already losing football games, and they'll lose many more if Brunell continues to play.
- When is the proper time to start a young quarterback? He's already sat for a year.
- I think the offense is already losing confidence in Brunell.(my opinion, but watch the Moss play)
- Campbell would restore my faith, maybe not for this season, but at least for the future.
- Look at Brunell's statistics for the last two games...

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

Look, its only two games in to the season. Luckily for us, everyone is 1-1. We have two very important people to our team on the sideline. Springs is one of the big leaders of this defense. We are just not the same with out him. Portis, has become a very vocal leader and motivator of this team. and not having him on the field hurts us tremedously, mentally and physically. I do think Brunell is playing awful, let me get that out of the way. But, I want to hold my judgement as far as benching him until Portis is on the field. If we continue with 3 and outs it creates issues on both sides of the ball. We can get no rhythm on offense and saunders offense and his calling is all about that. plus our D is on the field A LOT!! which wears them down. Our offense needs Portis to be effective. Look, we won 5 straight - 6 counting the playoff win - at the end of the season. And, everyone thought we would go 6-10, not 10-6. We still have the chances to play everyone in our division twice. (except the Boys) I get just as pissed off watching the games as the next guy, and the play calling and blah blah blah.... But we have to remember, Portis was our motivation for our team last year. He put us (ironically) on his shoulders and carried us to the playoffs. I believe our team will make huge leaps once our two leaders get back on the field. Brunell will have more time in the pocket, and will make the throws needed.

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

This sounds funny saying this but I hope we lose badly to the Texans. I just can't bear the thought of Brunell's last stand anymore. I want him to play so bad that Gibbs has no choice to sit him for fear of losing the team. The problem is that we will probably barely win and Brunell will struggle on and remain the starter for several more games. We fans deserve better than to have to watch Brunell learn the system well enough just to barely keep his job. He is done. Saunders put it best when he said Kurt Warner won the Super Bowl his first year in this system. Mark Brunell please go away.

Re: Time to bench Brunell?
 

[quote=Hog1;216692]Well, Many people said the same thing about Brunell last season. You don't have to throw 80 yards to win the SB in this league. Regarding winning seasons, he gives us our ONLY shot this year. If we change QB's now, we are done. Like it or not, with Brunell, we have our best chance. He must have some protection. He (like most QB's) have little chance when running all over the field to evade tacklers. He didn't cause a dozen penalties. He didn't fail to control, the Cowboys O in critical situations. To state that nobody respects Brunell is ridiculous, and the season is lost????? Come on, it's two games. Terrible start, but hardly a season. If you blame him for this.......situation, then it is only fair to praise him for his direction of the team to a 10-6 last year. Don't be confused that I advocate Brunell as a..........closet Montana. he is what we got until JC comes of age. As many have already stated, we don't need to make him a David Carr behind our NO-line. I, like the rest in Skins land am a pissed off SOB, but to make a foolish, emotional snap decision makes a potential losing season into a guarantee. We don't want to kill JC bringing him in now. Todd ain't it. WE don't want to do the Spurrier rotating QB either[/quote]

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

why did we go through the enormous effort of teaching this old dog new tricks?

this applies to the whole offense of course, but it applies most directly to Brunell himself. all the practice and game time spent on a 36 yr old QB should have been used on Campbell who is young enough to grow into the offense along with the team.

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

[quote=Southpaw;216983]Ummm..
- They're already losing football games, and they'll lose many more if Brunell continues to play.
- When is the proper time to start a young quarterback? He's already sat for a year.
- I think the offense is already losing confidence in Brunell.(my opinion, but watch the Moss play)
- Campbell would restore my faith, maybe not for this season, but at least for the future.
- Look at Brunell's statistics for the last two games...[/quote]

I'll concede to put JC Campbell in if you can guarantee that JC will not lose any games.

That appears to be your reason to pull MB ... he will lose games in the future.

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

this may be ridiculous but isnt the main focus of our O sitting on the sidelines because he made a play after a lofted pass to the other team by our aging pathetic scared QB? By the way it sucks having to work with a bunch of cowboys fans.

Re: Time to bench Brunell? (Mega-merge)
 

[quote=wilsowilso;216987]This sounds funny saying this but I hope we lose badly to the Texans. I just can't bear the thought of Brunell's last stand anymore. I want him to play so bad that Gibbs has no choice to sit him for fear of losing the team. The problem is that we will probably barely win and Brunell will struggle on and remain the starter for several more games. We fans deserve better than to have to watch Brunell learn the system well enough just to barely keep his job. He is done. Saunders put it best when he said Kurt Warner won the Super Bowl his first year in this system. Mark Brunell please go away.[/quote] Actually, this may sound ridiculous, but I was hoping the Cowboys would hit Brunell hard enough to get him outta the game for a few weeks; I mean, that's our only chance of gettin' campbell in the game.