Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=ArtMonkDrillz;255356]We're 20-28 since Gibbs came back. Currently we have the same record as Green Bay, Houston, and Cleveland and only Oakland, Detroit, Tampa (who beat us), and Arizona have a worse record than us. Only 9 teams score fewer points than we do and only 6 teams allow more points than we do. We commit too many penalties and we give up too many big plays. I barely trust whatever kicker we happen to be starting on a given week to make an extra point, much less a 35+ yarder. This team seems to have no direction from week to week in terms of how it wants to play offense. We've run the same reverse play from the same spot on the field 3 weeks in a row. The entire defense spends every timeout and commercial break dancing around to the same the same 2 songs that they play over and over at FedEx rather than discussing what play they should run. And yesterday on [B]4th down and goal [/B]with time running out Gibbs was motioning to Campbell to [I]spike the ball[/I] because we had jsut ran on 3rd and got stuffed (I don't know if they showed that on TV but we could see it from the stands).

I said it earlier in the season: we need to forget about what Joe Gibbs did for us in the 80's because it's almost 2007 and this team looks like it's going nowhere. I'm not saying he needs to get fired, but he needs to tighten up and we all need to stop giving him a free pass from everyone here for what he did last century.

and that's my rant[/QUOTE]

well said!

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[quote=paulskinsfan;255353]Ohh so now Ive gone from a lone voice to representing 40% of all Skins fans? Wow! Put an unbiased poll up as to who is to blame for the current state of the Skins and we'll see what happens.[/quote]

I meant lone dissenting voice sarcastically, sorry it doesn't translate well.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[quote=paulskinsfan;255353]Ohh so now Ive gone from a lone voice to representing 40% of all Skins fans? Wow! Put an unbiased poll up as to who is to blame for the current state of the Skins and we'll see what happens.[/quote]

The poll is going to be very simple, should Gibbs be fired yes or no. That's what our disagreement is about, correct?

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan;255345]You honestly think you are in the majority of Skins fans? HA! Several people have piped up support, the others don't wanna endure an attack the way I have. And when I said "Im done" it meant I was done supporting Joe Gibbs and a system that DOES NOT WORK! Everytime someone questions the decisions of this inept coaching staff Matt and Company come riding to the defense and try to bully them off the board. Im in the minority? Right.[/QUOTE]

So which is though? Are you done supporting Gibbs because his system doesn't work. Or are you done supporting him because his system worked last year and now he's switched to a system that doesn't work? I don't understand what you (and many others) are really complaining about

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;255367]The poll is going to be very simple, should Gibbs be fired yes or no. That's what our disagreement is about, correct?[/QUOTE]
I don't think it's that simple. I honestly think that this team is in such a deep hole that we're pretty much screwed either way.
I'm starting to wonder how much respect the players have for Gibbs anymore (remember, they probably weren't Skins fans in the 80s) because of all the double crossing and shadiness that this team has had over the last few seasons. The players just don't really seem to care all that much and losing seems okay to them.
At the same time, I don't think that a complete change would be a good thing, especially on offense. Jason Campbell needs to be in Saunder's system next year so his head doesn't explose. Likewise, if this system really does take a full year to master then next year should be a lot more fun to watch. Maybe a change of defense would be okay since those usually seem a lot smoother.

So basically I don't even think the glass is half empty anymore; I think it's spoiled and rotten and if you drink the little bit that's left you'll get the runs. But, I'll keep going to games at home and I'll keep watching them on TV and I'll ask for overprices Skins crap for X-mas. This team is like my crack addiction.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[quote=ArtMonkDrillz;255377]I don't think it's that simple. I honestly think that this team is in such a deep hole that we're pretty much screwed either way.
I'm starting to wonder how much respect the players have for Gibbs anymore (remember, they probably weren't Skins fans in the 80s) because of all the double crossing and shadiness that this team has had over the last few seasons. The players just don't really seem to care all that much and losing seems okay to them.
At the same time, I don't think that a complete change would be a good thing, especially on offense. Jason Campbell needs to be in Saunder's system next year so his head doesn't explose. Likewise, if this system really does take a full year to master then next year should be a lot more fun to watch. Maybe a change of defense would be okay since those usually seem a lot smoother.

So basically I don't even think the glass is half empty anymore; I think it's spoiled and rotten and if you drink the little bit that's left you'll get the runs. But, I'll keep going to games at home and I'll keep watching them on TV and I'll ask for overprices Skins crap for X-mas. This team is like my crack addiction.[/quote]

Let's not complicate things, for the purposes of this thread it is that simple.

I've said that I agree with Paul that Gibbs is not getting the job done. However, he wants Gibbs gone and I disagree.

That's the point I am arguing over, very simple. Though I'm not sure if Paul is on the same plain here, as he seems to keep tossing other things into the mix.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;255379]I've said that I agree with Paul that Gibbs is not getting the job done. However, he wants Gibbs gone and I disagree.[/QUOTE]

That's what all of this Gibbs talk comes down to. It's hard to argue that Gibbs is doing well. But, how do people think a first year coach will do? It's amazing to think that these people haven't learned from our past coaching blunders. Don't you guys remember, we had Marvin Lewis (among many other capable coaches through the years)! We let him go. Want to do it again? Where's the logic? :banghead:

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=GhettoDogAllStars;255380]That's what all of this Gibbs talk comes down to. It's hard to argue that Gibbs is doing well. But, how do people think a first year coach will do? It's amazing to think that these people haven't learned from our past coaching blunders. Don't you guys remember, we had Marvin Lewis (among many other capable coaches through the years)! We let him go. Want to do it again? Where's the logic? :banghead:[/QUOTE]

the logic is that the NFL is a lot different than it was 20 years ago. times have changed. so should we... gibbs doesn't know how to coach in the "new" NFL.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=mason4415;255382]gibbs doesn't know how to coach in the "new" NFL.[/QUOTE]

I reject that argument categorically.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;255343]Ahh the salary cap hell take. Haven't heard that one in a while.

Let's hear your analysis of why we are in cap hell and how far in cap hell we are, backed up by the numbers not just your opinion of the matter from what you've heard through the ignorant media who thinks we are always in cap hell or headed towards it.[/QUOTE]

with the current roster (which is a whopping 4-8) minus the free agents we lose, we are sitting at $105 million for 2007... granted, we may be able to cut a player or two, but we also need to fill a full roster (which, at minumum salaries will cost us anywhere from $7mm - $8mm).

by saying that we're in cap hell, all i'm saying is that we have absolute ZERO flexibility. and that what you see on the field is what we're going to get for at least another year!

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

The blame has to be put on Snyder and Gibbs this year because they are the decision makers, and everything starts with them. But, just because we lost this year does not mean that Gibbs can't make it right, next year is another year, and as long as we don't overhaul the offense, things should improve. Gibb's is a proven winner and there is no reason to replace him just because we lost. Sometimes you gotta work with what you got, and Gibbs is who we got, for hopefully a long time.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=mason4415;255382]the logic is that the NFL is a lot different than it was 20 years ago. times have changed. so should we... gibbs doesn't know how to coach in the "new" NFL.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean the "new" NFL? He did make the playoffs in the new NFL didn't he? The Steelers, a team whose offense basically stems from the Gibbs philosophy did win the Super Bowl in the new NFL, didn't they?

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=GhettoDogAllStars;255383]I reject that argument categorically.[/QUOTE]

even last year, when we made the playoffs... it was like pulling teeth. he (and brunell) were both bailed out by the unbelievable play of the defense!

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS;255341]I don't think he thought he was rebuilding the O by bringing in Saunders. I think he thought he was just modernizing and enhancing it.[/QUOTE]

I see your point but I'm sure Gibbs knew what AS was going to do with the O (700 page playbook) and had to realize it was going to be more of a rebuild than a modernization.

That leads me to another question, why did he think the O needed modernized when what they were doing was good enough to get them to the playoffs? It would have only gotten better with more time & practice during the offseason. I think Gibbs was confused thinking the problem was with the scheme instead of a QB that was way past his prime.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[quote=mason4415;255384]with the current roster (which is a whopping 4-8) minus the free agents we lose, we are sitting at $105 million for 2007... granted, we may be able to cut a player or two, but we also need to fill a full roster (which, at minumum salaries will cost us anywhere from $7mm - $8mm).

by saying that we're in cap hell, all i'm saying is that we have absolute ZERO flexibility. and that what you see on the field is what we're going to get for at least another year![/quote]

With cuts and renegotiated contracts we'll be fine, always are.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=mason4415;255387]even last year, when we made the playoffs... it was like pulling teeth. he (and brunell) were both bailed out by the unbelievable play of the defense![/QUOTE]

Good point. I forgot that our running game did absolutely nothing down the stretch. If only Gibbs had gotten involved with that

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[quote=TAFKAS;255390]Good point. I forgot that our running game did absolutely nothing down the stretch. If only Gibbs had gotten involved with that[/quote]

Right, an offense that ranked 11th overall in yardage and 13th overall in points had nothing to do with anything.

Didn't you see the playoff game against TB? The season should be judged on that one game you know.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=irish;255388]I see your point but I'm sure Gibbs knew what AS was going to do with the O (700 page playbook) and had to realize it was going to be more of a rebuild than a modernization.

That leads me to another question, why did he think the O needed modernized when what they were doing was good enough to get them to the playoffs? It would have only gotten better with more time & practice during the offseason. I think Gibbs was confused thinking the problem was with the scheme instead of a QB that was way past his prime.[/QUOTE]

Well honestly I think he was trying to transition to a post-Gibbs era. Bring Saunders in now, then in a year or two the players (most importantly Campbell) would ideally have the offense mastered. I wish it was someone like Byner who could work his way up the ranks and succeed Gibbs as the offensive mastermind, or even better have Grimm back. But Gibbs thought Saunders was the guy.

I think Saunders is, to steal a word, "supersmart" and the offenses can do great things under his watch. But sometimes, he needs to remember Occam's Razor.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[quote=mason4415;255382]the logic is that the NFL is a lot different than it was 20 years ago. times have changed. so should we... gibbs doesn't know how to coach in the "new" NFL.[/quote]

What's so new about the NFL? Power running and stopping the run are still staples of a successful NFL team. He's adjusting to the salary cap (slowly) and knows that he can no longer hide players on IR or wherever. I think the play clock is shorter now by a few seconds, but I'm not positive.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[quote=Mattyk72;255392]Right, an offense that ranked 11th overall in yardage and 13th overall in points had nothing to do with anything.

Didn't you see the playoff game against TB? The season should be judged on that one game you know.[/quote]

The offense was not a superbowl offense last year, if it was better, we would have won the superbowl cause we HAD a superbowl defense. Despite what people say, we were far from winning a superbowl last year, far from it. Upgrading the offense was an ok decision, but maybe saunders was the wrong guy. The offense looks OK right now, we could have won yesterday with the 2005 defense, you know that. Both the tampa and Seattle games yielded pathetic offensive performances last year.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[quote=#56fanatic;255315]This Joe must go crap has to stop. The only fault I can see in the man is his loyalty to people. He was loyal to Brunell too long, and gave Saunders way to many games to get his offense working. Sauderns should have his ass chewed out big time today for allowing the momentum to turn early in the game when we could have ripped Atlanta's heart out. Saunders tries those stupid ass plays, when all we needed to do, was run right down their throats and go up 21-0 or at worst 17-0. but instead he brings out those reverse's , toss's and crap. Thats who needs to go. He does not fit in Washington!![/quote]

in short we had what we love working for us in the first quarter,redskins football.why change AL. and along with giving up 200+ yards rushing on defense aint all that impressive either....

i agree 56 fanatic.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[quote=The Zimmermans;255397]The offense was not a superbowl offense last year, if it was better, we would have won the superbowl cause we HAD a superbowl defense. Despite what people say, we were far from winning a superbowl last year, far from it. Upgrading the offense was an ok decision, but maybe saunders was the wrong guy. The offense looks OK right now, we could have won yesterday with the 2005 defense, you know that. Both the tampa and Seattle games yielded pathetic offensive performances last year.[/quote]

The offense stumbled late with Portis and MB being banged up. I really think we could have beat Seattle if those guys were healthy and playing well.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[quote=ArtMonkDrillz;255356]We're 20-28 since Gibbs came back. Currently we have the same record as Green Bay, Houston, and Cleveland and only Oakland, Detroit, Tampa (who beat us), and Arizona have a worse record than us. Only 9 teams score fewer points than we do and only 6 teams allow more points than we do. We commit too many penalties and we give up too many big plays. I barely trust whatever kicker we happen to be starting on a given week to make an extra point, much less a 35+ yarder. This team seems to have no direction from week to week in terms of how it wants to play offense. We've run the same reverse play from the same spot on the field 3 weeks in a row. The entire defense spends every timeout and commercial break dancing around to the same the same 2 songs that they play over and over at FedEx rather than discussing what play they should run. And yesterday on [B]4th down and goal [/B]with time running out Gibbs was motioning to Campbell to [I]spike the ball[/I] because we had jsut ran on 3rd and got stuffed (I don't know if they showed that on TV but we could see it from the stands).

I said it earlier in the season: we need to forget about what Joe Gibbs did for us in the 80's because it's almost 2007 and this team looks like it's going nowhere. I'm not saying he needs to get fired, but he needs to tighten up and we all need to stop giving him a free pass for what he did last century.

and that's my rant[/quote]

I agree w/ alot of your post. Just for clarification though, Gibbs was motioning Campbell to pass on that 4th down.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

Saunders offense is obviously a very fine offense. It takes awhile for football players, especially an offensive line, to change their mentality from "power run" to "finesse and misdirection". Both systems have shown to work just fine once all of the players adjust.

Key word of the day folks: [B]adjust.[/B] The adjustment period is going a little slower than I think anyone expected. I wish they would keep plugging away with Saunders system rather than go back to Gibbs'. If you find yourself lacking patience as a fan, you're not alone but I don't want hiccup team that barely gets to the playoffs one year and then slips back down to mediocrity. We need continuity at every level for at 2, preferrably 3 years. This year was basically year 1 again since we brought in a new OC whose system was radically different from the preceding year.

As far as Defense goes, I say give everyone a year to regroup and let the coaches sit down and talk about communication. The secondary needs help. The d-line needs to work on pressure. The linebackers have got to be everywhere in the right postion.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[quote=The Zimmermans;255397]The offense was not a superbowl offense last year, if it was better, we would have won the superbowl cause we HAD a superbowl defense. Despite what people say, we were far from winning a superbowl last year, far from it. Upgrading the offense was an ok decision, but maybe saunders was the wrong guy. The offense looks OK right now, we could have won yesterday with the 2005 defense, you know that. Both the tampa and Seattle games yielded pathetic offensive performances last year.[/quote]

I posted earlier that i don't think Gibbs should go but I've started questioning alot of his moves. We had a super bowl defense last year, and w/ a different qb we could have gone further. What Gibbs sees...saw in Brunell no one knows. Everybody else in the nfl world-fan world could see this was an aging backup at best. Had we brought in an above average-good qb who knows.

I want to see another year and if we don't see some improvement I think some wholesale changes need to be made. Either in the skins front office philosophy, coaching, and or personell.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

We gotta stop relying so much on Sean "I'm injured more than healthy" springs. We also desperately need a runstopping linebacker and DT.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

HEY!!!!!!!!!!
STOP THE FIGHTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Redskins are officialling in a rebuilding mode. Stop trying to pass around blame for the situation they are in. The question that needs to be asked, "Do you feel that the present organization is capable of turning around the team with the present personel?" If you feel this organization cannot right the ship, then some personel changes need to be made. Either fire some coaches or players or both. I caution going after the quick fix. I think the reason the Redskins are in the situation they are in now is because for the past 10 years, they have been seeking the quick fix. I think the Skins need to stick with one system for a while and let it work its way out. Stop changing. Be patient. Give Gibbs and company the benefit of the doubt and let them do there jobs and get this team back into playoff contention.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=redsk1;255401]I agree w/ alot of your post. Just for clarification though, Gibbs was motioning Campbell to pass on that 4th down.[/QUOTE]
That would make more sense; from the upper deck we thought he was trying to tell him to kill the clock and Campbell just looked confused. Either way though, with the exception of the timely blocked punt (how the hell did the punter make the damn tackle!) the last 6 minutes of the game were down right embarassing. The team looked like a bunch of Pop Warner kids trying to run a 2 minute drill. Hopefully Campbell will vastly improve on that based on how bad the game ended, hopefully he learns from his failures.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS;255386]What do you mean the "new" NFL? He did make the playoffs in the new NFL didn't he? The Steelers, a team whose offense basically stems from the Gibbs philosophy did win the Super Bowl in the new NFL, didn't they?[/QUOTE]

first of all, i wish i knew what the "Gibbs philosophy" was! second, saying the 2005 steelers offense is based on anything the redskins do is absurd. i am a redskins fan living in pittsburgh. i don't see any similarities from what Gibbs philosophy is (whatever that may be) and the 2005 pittsburgh steelers! and if you want to try, we can argue this one all day long!

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=724Skinsfan;255395]What's so new about the NFL? Power running and stopping the run are still staples of a successful NFL team. He's adjusting to the salary cap (slowly) and knows that he can no longer hide players on IR or wherever. I think the play clock is shorter now by a few seconds, but I'm not positive.[/QUOTE]

wow... any knowledgable NFL person knows that if you can't throw the ball, you aren't going to win consistently. you have to be able to throw the ball in today's NFL to be able to win. we aren't in the 1980's anymore!

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

Keys to winning in the NFL:
1. Stop the run
2. Run the ball
3. Don't turn the ball over
4. Force turnovers

That isn't anything new. That philosophy has and will work forever. Sure, the NFL has changed but the keys to winning haven't.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=GhettoDogAllStars;255420]Keys to winning in the NFL:
1. Stop the run
2. Run the ball
3. Don't turn the ball over
4. Force turnovers

That isn't anything new. That philosophy has and will work forever. Sure, the NFL has changed but the keys to winning haven't.[/QUOTE]
But John Madden would remind you that the real key to winning a game is outscoring your opponent.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

Yesterday we ran the crap outta the ball............We lost by 10 points. There are many more factors than people believe. Chiefs always run for over 150 yards but they have 5 losses........anyone noticing these things?

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=GhettoDogAllStars;255420]Keys to winning in the NFL:
1. Stop the run
2. Run the ball
3. Don't turn the ball over
4. Force turnovers

That isn't anything new. That philosophy has and will work forever. Sure, the NFL has changed but the keys to winning haven't.[/QUOTE]

Keys to winning in the NFL:

1. DEFENSE
2. QB play
3. Offensive Line play

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[quote=mason4415;255419]wow... any knowledgable NFL person knows that if you can't throw the ball, you aren't going to win consistently. you have to be able to throw the ball in today's NFL to be able to win. we aren't in the 1980's anymore![/quote]

Didn't you just post that you were from Pittsburg? And you still say that if you can't throw you aren't going to win? Any "knowledgeable fan" knows that a strong running game sets up the passing game. Reel them in and let it fly. There are a few systems that emphasize passing to setup the run but I can only think of Detroit, Philly and I guess the Patriots right now.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=GhettoDogAllStars;255420]Keys to winning in the NFL:
1. Stop the run
2. Run the ball
3. Don't turn the ball over
4. Force turnovers

That isn't anything new. That philosophy has and will work forever. Sure, the NFL has changed but the keys to winning haven't.[/QUOTE]

this post makes me angry and is exactly why the redskins are where they are!

true, T/O ratio is one of the most important keys to winning. but running the ball certain is not! being balanced enough to take advantage of opponents weaknesses is a must in today's NFL, i.e. the New England Patriots. It's not about establishing "Redskins" smash mouth football. See last year's Steelers. They made it to the Super Bowl by THROWING THE FOOTBALL and taking what was given to them.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=724Skinsfan;255429]Didn't you just post that you were from Pittsburg? And you still say that if you can't throw you aren't going to win? Any "knowledgeable fan" knows that a strong running game sets up the passing game. Reel them in and let it fly. There are a few systems that emphasize passing to setup the run but I can only think of Detroit, Philly and I guess the Patriots right now.[/QUOTE]

New England wins consistently because they attack the weaknesses of their opponent. They do not pass to setup the run. They are just WELL-MANAGED and WELL-COACHED.

I am from Virginia. I moved to Pittsburgh exactly 1 year ago today. And if you knew anything about the NFL, you would know that the Steelers were not a "running team" last year! All 3 AFC playoff games were won with the passing game... not set up by the run, but by adjusting to the other team's defense. The NFL is more of a chess match today than ever! When you play chess, you don't blindly make moves without trying to figure out your opponent... unless you're the redskins. You could get away with that in the 80's and early 90's. TV, computers, technology, NFL popularity, smarter coaches, smarter players, etc have all made the game different from what it used to be.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[quote=mason4415;255430]this post makes me angry and is exactly why the redskins are where they are!

true, T/O ratio is one of the most important keys to winning. but running the ball certain is not! being balanced enough to take advantage of opponents weaknesses is a must in today's NFL, i.e. the New England Patriots. It's not about establishing "Redskins" smash mouth football. See last year's Steelers. They made it to the Super Bowl by THROWING THE FOOTBALL and taking what was given to them.[/quote]

Umm..errr...The Steelers had 549 rushing plays versus 379 passing plays. Big Ben didn't break 2,500 yards passing. These stats were brought to you by [url=http://www.nfl.com]NFL.com - Official Site of the National Football League[/url].

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

You don't need to have any sort of running game to win, IMO, assuming you can throw the ball to any part of the field. If you can't use the entire field in the passing game, then you need the compliment run game.

A running game makes the passers' job much easier...but ultimately you have to make the throws or you lose.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[quote=mason4415;255419]wow... any knowledgable NFL person knows that if you can't throw the ball, you aren't going to win consistently. you have to be able to throw the ball in today's NFL to be able to win. we aren't in the 1980's anymore![/quote]

I agree you have to be able to throw to win in todays nfl. Yes, Pittsburgh has a running physical style of play but many occasions they will come out throwing to set up the run (last year). If you only run the ball defenses are going to stack the line against you (see last year).