Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Mattyk72;326455]I actually think it's sad that you don't seem to have much pity for those that are less fortunate, and you assume that people that are homeless are homeless because of personal choice, they're dumbasses, and don't give a shit.

Sad.[/quote]

You might be surprised to find out how many homeless people are there by personal choice or because of personal choices. I would think that drugs and alcohol are responsible for about 75% of homeless cases. The remainder being largely mentally ill (you can't force people to stay in mental hospitals since the 1970's, which is oddly when homelessness emerged). There are very few people in this country who are sane, willing to work and who don't have a place to live. It's very rare. Think about it. You would have to lose your job, have no family, have no friends, have no church, and on and on and on.

You can feel pity for someone and understand that it's their own fault at the same time. The two are not really related.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=BigSKINBauer;326716]MOore went off on CNN
[URL="http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Michael_Moore_shames_CNN_Blitzer_on_0709.html"]The Raw Story | Michael Moore slams CNN, Wolf Blitzer on live TV[/URL]

[URL="http://www.breitbart.tv/html/2823.html"]Breitbart.tv » Michael Moore Mocks Indian Anchor’s Name During On-Air Tirade Against CNN[/URL]

I can't watch the video but tell me if it is any good.[/quote]

He's probably drinking again. He's a well known juicer.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=70Chip;326745]You might be surprised to find out how many homeless people are there by personal choice or because of personal choices. I would think that drugs and alcohol are responsible for about 75% of homeless cases. The remainder being largely mentally ill (you can't force people to stay in mental hospitals since the 1970's, which is oddly when homelessness emerged). There are very few people in this country who are sane, willing to work and who don't have a place to live. It's very rare. Think about it. You would have to lose your job, have no family, have no friends, have no church, and on and on and on.

You can feel pity for someone and understand that it's their own fault at the same time. The two are not really related.[/quote]

Regardless of how or why it happens, do they still not deserve a helping hand? I guess the prevailing opinion would be they don't, considering how we treat our sick, elderly, mentally ill, and homeless in this country.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Mattyk72;326744]Honestly I'm not sure what the ultimate answer should be. Should health care be run by the gov't only, or should it be run by private industry and the gov't, or a does private industry just need more oversight by the gov't?

I really don't know, all I know is the system needs fixing.[/quote]
The federal goverment is already involved in the health care industry with expensive mandates that we have to pay for weather we need the coverage or not. A good example is mandated drug adiction coverage which I myself do not need but have to pay for every single month.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Mattyk72;326747]Regardless of how or why it happens, do they still not deserve a helping hand? I guess the prevailing opinion would be they don't, considering how we treat our sick, elderly, mentally ill, and homeless in this country.[/quote]
I would say that most people are willing to give a helping hand to people willing to help themself. I have belong to several organizations which help in the comunity and I see so many people who are willing to receive help but are totaly unwilling to help themself. The group I belong to now has a very,very tough time finding people who are not just looking for a hand out rather than a helping hand.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Mattyk72;326747]Regardless of how or why it happens, do they still not deserve a helping hand? I guess the prevailing opinion would be they don't, considering how we treat our sick, elderly, mentally ill, and homeless in this country.[/quote]

The point is that they have already gotten what they deserve. The question is, should we help them even though they don't deserve it? I'm inclined to answer yes, BTW.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

Is there a post on this thread that summarizes "Sicko"? What reforms can be made without giving it over to government control?

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=saden1;326689]I don't mean fortune as in luck but rather circumstance, opportunity, and environment. One of your assumptions is that everyone has a chance to succeed. I'm glad you got where you are by working hard but I bet you if you think for a moment you can name 3 crucial events or opportunities in your life you can attribute your success to. To say you're where you are today ALL because of your hard work would be disingenuous.

I mean, compare yourself to people from Sudan. How do you think your life stacks up against theirs? Are they poor because they didn't work hard or because they aren't smart? The world isn't black and white like you make it out to be. It's many shades of gray filled with spots and [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHoDcj6wwMw"]squiggly[/URL] lines.[/QUOTE]

I'm not trying to compare apples to oranges...so I apologize for not being specific, although I did already mention I am referring to American's only. I have never lived in another country, so I do not know what it takes to be successful there. However, even in those countries, if you follow my basic principles, you can be more successful than the person next you even in those countries. You are not doomed by circumstance.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

Thought this might be relevant to the discussion.

Richard Carmona - Bush’s first Surgeon General.
[YT]C43uqebvycY[/YT]

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=dmek25;326692]jsarno, while i feel I'm in the same boat as you, when it comes to hard work and basically over achieving, you fail to remember one thing. everyone cant be the chief. you need some Indians, also. that janitor making 12.00 an hour, we need him as much as the boss raking in six figures[/QUOTE]

Just remember...EVERYTHING you do has a consequence. You don't always know what it is. But when you make poor choices, then your opportunity for success becomes less. When you think negatively, your opportunity for success dramatically decreases. In fact, I would wager that anyone that believes they can't be successful is right. Negativity is a cancer. It's also something that a lot of people here keep spewing. All the "can't" comments are astounding, and they don't even realize it.
dmek, I never said we don't need him, I think you are assuming I think he is a "useless" person. He is not. He didn't have initiative, and didn't want to be something more. Those kinds of people become complacent. The majority of the country is that way, and it doesn't make them bad people, or dumbasses...it just means they don't aspire for more. That's their CHOICE. They could also die completely happy that way. More power to them. But I have a desire for more, and I will work to get it. I do not apoligize for being successful, nor should anyone begrudge me for it. Those that complain about "the rich" most of the time, are jealous that things didn't fall into their laps. Nothing comes to you, you HAVE to go get it.

ps- everyone is an Indian in some way...even CEO's report to board members. Even the general of the army has to report to the president. While I have been management for years, I have ALWAYS had a boss. It has to do with making wise decisions, being accountable for your actions and working hard enough to reach for the brass ring.
Our society has become accepting of failure. A lot of comments here prove it. I'm not accepting of it. I am successful, but I will be a lot more successful because I will never quit.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=saden1;326689] I'm glad you got where you are by working hard but I bet you if you think for a moment you can name 3 crucial events or opportunities in your life you can attribute your success to. [/quote]

While I can easily name 3 "forks in the road", I can name more than that too. However, each time I didn't always know it was a fork. I relied on my wisdom and sometimes prayer, and intelligence, and knowledge of the bible to guide me to the right side of the fork. Also, if you make the wrong decision, then go back. It's VERY rare that a decision you make is soooo bad that it ruins your life and you can't go back. There are some like murder etc, but those are so obviously bad that you're not very smart. I have made just as many good choices as bad choices, but the key is, I rectify the poor choices. I don't dwell on them, I change them. (through hard work and dedication)
On the flip side, you can give me ANY scenario (as long as I can ask questions about it) and I can tell you where they failed along the way. I know that sounds arrogant, but we have become a country so focused on the negatives, you then use your negativity to make decisions. It's like when you jump in the water and you see a shark, the first thing you will do is tense up and not move. That's what people do when they make a poor decision in life. They freeze, then they never get mobile again cause they are too worried about making another choice. (thus negativity takes over)
Every person that is homeless, or in the gutter made some poor choices that led to that. Every person in jail made poor choices that led to that as well. Every person that is dirt poor made very poor decisions to be that way.
Now I'm not saying that an unfortunate event couldn't happen out of the blue...they happen. But how do you handle it?
Do I feel bad when a tornado takes out a trailer park in Oklahoma? Not really. They knew the risks of living there...it was their choice. If you noticed when someone asked me why I wanted to move to Denver, I made many reasons, but one of them is "no natural disasters happen there". Those that make conscious decisions to reduce risk and maximize opportunity become successful. Again I feel compelled to say that bad things can and do happen. A tornado could hit Aurora,CO right now...would I feel for the people there...YES. That would be an anomoly. Do I feel bad for the people that perished in the 9/11 attacks...absolutely. They went to work one day trying to get ahead in life, or survive in life and they had no way of knowing that crazy people would fly into them and kill them. Had they known and stayed, then they would be stupid. You are who you are and you're at where you're at in life 100% because of your choices. Sorry I believe that whole heartedly.
I do recommend you read or watch "the secret". They actually say the same thing. I had already believed it before I read it, but it solidified my belief. Stop focusing on what has happened to you, and start focusing on what you want to happen to you.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;326752]I would say that most people are willing to give a helping hand to people willing to help themself. I have belong to several organizations which help in the comunity and I see so many people who are willing to receive help but are totaly unwilling to help themself. The group I belong to now has a very,very tough time finding people who are not just looking for a hand out rather than a helping hand.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely agree with that!

originally quoted by matty:
[quote]Regardless of how or why it happens, do they still not deserve a helping hand? I guess the prevailing opinion would be they don't, considering how we treat our sick, elderly, mentally ill, and homeless in this country.[/quote]
I'm going to break this down cause you mentioned a lot of different scenarios.
1- "the sick". Depends on how they got sick. Did they get sick because they were having unprotected sex and didn't care? If so, then tough crap. If they got sick from just living life, then yes, I care.
2- "the Elderly." You probably wouldn't expect this from me cause you guys don't understand where I'm coming from, but you can't help but get old, and I firmly believe that the money we waste on the unwed mothers plopping out babies should go to the elderly that really can't help themselves. I donate, and offer my time to the local nursing home...shock eh? Because they actually can't help themselves when they are that old.
3- "The mentally ill". See above.
4- "The homeless". I can not think of a scenario where a homeless person didn't do that to themselves by making piss poor decisions, then getting a "poor me" attitude. They are there because of them, no one else. Self responsibility people.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

Did anyone else catch his debate with Sanjay Gupta on Larry King Live tonight?

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;326925]Did anyone else catch his debate with Sanjay Gupta on Larry King Live tonight?[/quote]

No, how did it go?

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;326849]
4- "The homeless". I can not think of a scenario where a homeless person didn't do that to themselves by making piss poor decisions, then getting a "poor me" attitude. They are there because of them, no one else. Self responsibility people.[/QUOTE]

The only scenario about "the homeless" that I can think of is the veitnam vets that got messed up in the head over in veitnam and then came home and our goverment pretty much turned its back on them...

But other wise I agree, most homeless people either had piss poor upbringing or made piss poor choices in life...

I remember my only trip to New York city, there were people getting on the subway's begging for money. I would not give them nothing and this one homeless guy started to harrass me about it. He was saying stuff like "What? You think your better than me? Why can't you give me any money? You're no better than me..." I didn't give him any money but that was pretty damn arrogant for him or any homeless person just to expect people to give them money...

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;326935]No, how did it go?[/QUOTE]

I only saw the last few seconds and am hoping someone else can fill me in.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=Redskins8588;326959]The only scenario about "the homeless" that I can think of is the veitnam vets that got messed up in the head over in veitnam and then came home and our goverment pretty much turned its back on them... [/quote]

Well, while I would like to initially agree, I have a couple comments to ponder. 1- Are they mentally ill now? If so, they need to go into another catagory, and like I already said, I agree with helping them. 2- Why is it the soilders from WW1 and WW2 didn't have the same issues, yet they saw some pretty graphic images? WHat made 1 generation be able to take it (or surpress it) and the other generation got all messed up?

[quote]But other wise I agree, most homeless people either had piss poor upbringing or made piss poor choices in life... [/quote]

Thanks man...I feel like I'm on an island out here.

[quote]I remember my only trip to New York city, there were people getting on the subway's begging for money. I would not give them nothing and this one homeless guy started to harrass me about it. He was saying stuff like "What? You think your better than me? Why can't you give me any money? You're no better than me..." I didn't give him any money but that was pretty damn arrogant for him or any homeless person just to expect people to give them money...[/QUOTE]

You can thank all those idiots that give to them regularly. It's like if you feed a stray dog on your front porch, he will continue to come back, and if you continue to feed him, he will expect it.

I have a story that just happened about 1 month ago. My wife was coming out of wal mart, and a homeless person was on the corner with a sign that said "will work for food". She rolled down the window and said "my lawn needs to be mowed if your interested", (I am very allergic to something in the grass here) he actually said F.U. to her. When I got word of this, I was livid, I drove down there and saw that he had a dog too. I went into wal mart and bought a small bag of dog food. I went up to the homeless person and gave it to him. He asked "what the hell is this"? I said "it's food for your dog, and since you're not willing to work, you can share it with him too." He muttered something, and I said, "maybe next time you should actually do what your sign says and mow a lawn." I drove away to him giving me the finger. But at least the dog won't go hungry.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/Movies/07/10/gupta.sicko/index.html]Michael Moore, Dr. Gupta square off over 'Sicko' - CNN.com[/url]

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;326992][url=http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/Movies/07/10/gupta.sicko/index.html]Michael Moore, Dr. Gupta square off over 'Sicko' - CNN.com[/url][/QUOTE]

Thanks SS.

On a related note, does anyone know how many people work in the health care insurance industry? I'm just curious because I wonder what sort of economic ramifications a universal health care system would have on the overall economy.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;326990]Well, while I would like to initially agree, I have a couple comments to ponder. 1- Are they mentally ill now? If so, they need to go into another catagory, and like I already said, I agree with helping them. 2- Why is it the soilders from WW1 and WW2 didn't have the same issues, yet they saw some pretty graphic images? WHat made 1 generation be able to take it (or surpress it) and the other generation got all messed up?
[/QUOTE]

To answer your second question, I think that WWI and WWII were totally different types of wars compared to the Vietnam "Conflict". When our troops came home from WWI and WWII they were reguarded as HERO's. And as you know, in WWII we were attacked so that war meant alittle more to the people and troops than the Vietnam war/"conflict." When our troops came home from Vietnam they were spit on, protested against, and labled "baby killers." To me that is night and day when you are talking about the attidude that the troops had to come home too.

Also, alot of the Vietnam troops got "boned" by our goverment when they tried to get "war time" benifits. They were told that they were not in a war, but that they were in a "conflict." I am sure that had to weigh heavy on some of the men's minds. On top of all of this, the day after the US leaves Vietnam, North Vietnam takes over anyhow. So the whole thing was done for nothing, atleast I am sure that is what some of the men felt like, they didn't win.

In conclusion, WWI and WWII troops came home to parade, a socity with its arms opened, and were called HERO's. When Vietnam vets came home they came home to a COUNTRY that turned its back on them, people protesting against them, and being called baby killers. There are some that over came that adversity but that is a lot to over come for the most part. Think about it for a minute, think what it must have ben like to be 18, a US soldier, and be stuck in Vietnam. On top of that if you got to go to a Vietnam town, you never knew truely who the enemy was. It could be the guy next to you at the bar, it could be a little boy on the corner shinning shoes, or even woman walking down the street. I am sure that the men of WWI and WWII saw horrific imagies, but atleat they knew who the enemy was and why they were fighting, not so much can be said for our Vietnam troops...

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=jsarno;326990]Well, while I would like to initially agree, I have a couple comments to ponder. 1- Are they mentally ill now? If so, they need to go into another catagory, and like I already said, I agree with helping them. 2- Why is it the soilders from WW1 and WW2 didn't have the same issues, yet they saw some pretty graphic images? WHat made 1 generation be able to take it (or surpress it) and the other generation got all messed up?[/quote]

To add to what 8588 said. You also have to think of the era. Durin the time periods of WWI and WWII it was not "manly to talk about stuff like that" Not that they didnt have the same issues, but just like a boy thinks that it is not ok to cry, it wasnt ok to address mental issues. Add to that the fact that the military started experimenting all sorts of different drugs on US soldiers during Vietnam, Desert Storm and Enduring @ Iraqi Freedom. Also from a medical standpoint pshchology was not as practiced then as it is now.

To sum it up, all war Vets experienced it in every war. Light just wasnt always shed on the matter.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;327000]Thanks SS.

On a related note, does anyone know how many people work in the health care insurance industry? I'm just curious because I wonder what sort of economic ramifications a universal health care system would have on the overall economy.[/QUOTE]
Well healthcare spedning accounts for 1/9 of our national GDP I believe. So anything that effects that machinations of it could dramatically change our economy. For the good or bad. We're talking serious economy changes.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=jsarno;326990]I have a story that just happened about 1 month ago. My wife was coming out of wal mart, and a homeless person was on the corner with a sign that said "will work for food". She rolled down the window and said "my lawn needs to be mowed if your interested", (I am very allergic to something in the grass here) he actually said F.U. to her. When I got word of this, I was livid, I drove down there and saw that he had a dog too. I went into wal mart and bought a small bag of dog food. I went up to the homeless person and gave it to him. He asked "what the hell is this"? I said "it's food for your dog, and since you're not willing to work, you can share it with him too." He muttered something, and I said, "maybe next time you should actually do what your sign says and mow a lawn." I drove away to him giving me the finger. But at least the dog won't go hungry.[/quote]

Damn... that's a dick-move.

I'm not saying what he did was right, but to go to that length to retaliate is pretty childish if you ask me.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;327029]Damn... that's a dick-move.

I'm not saying what he did was right, but to go to that length to retaliate is pretty childish if you ask me.[/QUOTE]

Well I wouldn't have done it but I am struck by the fact that some think we are supposed to care enough to help these type of people unconditionally but we are not supposed care enough to do anything when they act like this.

It seems like it is saying "This guy deserves our help but don't dare judge him on any actions he takes. It's not your place."

I am not saying that you are saying that Matty but it seems like a lot of people want everyone to help without question or even active participation unless it is to only bring sunshine and blow smoke.

That guy needs more people to tell him off. Maybe if enough people put him in his place rather than give him handouts he'll figure out how to get his life on track.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

Don't help the guy...hell don't even give him the time of day. But I fail to see what a childish retaliation like that accomplishes. Somehow I don't think tough love is going to change most people like that.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;327033]Don't help the guy...hell don't even give him the time of day. But I fail to see what a childish retaliation like that accomplishes. Somehow I don't think tough love is going to change most people like that.[/QUOTE]

I tend to agree...I certainly wouldn't have wasted my time by getting in my car and driving back over there. But if he had done that to me he'd have caught quite a reaction in the moment.

I would say that if they get enough dressing-downs that a lot of people might finally get a clue. Not all or even most...but then those who don't we can know simply don't deserve help. I honesetly feel that if you are not willing to help yourself then you don't deserve help from anyone. Not if you aren't ABLE to help yourself but if you don't WANT to. If you aren't willing to help yourself then you can bend over and kiss your own ass for all I care. There are too many people who need help and will do wahetever they can to get it for me to worry about those who just want handouts.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=angryssg;327010]To add to what 8588 said. You also have to think of the era. Durin the time periods of WWI and WWII it was not "manly to talk about stuff like that" Not that they didnt have the same issues, but just like a boy thinks that it is not ok to cry, it wasnt ok to address mental issues. Add to that the fact that the military started experimenting all sorts of different drugs on US soldiers during Vietnam, Desert Storm and Enduring @ Iraqi Freedom. Also from a medical standpoint pshchology was not as practiced then as it is now.

To sum it up, all war Vets experienced it in every war. Light just wasnt always shed on the matter.[/QUOTE]

Also, consider the growing media impact. Vietnam was the first war to really be "televised." Then you had 24 hour news channels with "Desert Storm," and now you have the Internet. There's no longer a filter to the realities and brutalities of war.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

I will never forget about a somewhat simialr instance that happened to my father one day. After leaving the grocery store, we pulled up to a stop light and there was a homeless guy there. He starts begging my dad for some money through the window. My dad told him to get into the bed of the truck and we would take him to McDonalds and get him whatever meal he wanted. He basically told my dad to Eff off. Told my dad he didn't like McDonalds and asked if he could just have the money so he could eat somewhere else.

This is why I don't even give these people the time of day. I donate to charities and churches but I will never give money to somebody who stands on the side of the road asking for a handout.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=FRPLG;327031]Well I wouldn't have done it but I am struck by the fact that some think we are supposed to care enough to help these type of people unconditionally but we are not supposed care enough to do anything when they act like this.

It seems like it is saying "This guy deserves our help but don't dare judge him on any actions he takes. It's not your place."

I am not saying that you are saying that Matty but it seems like a lot of people want everyone to help without question or even active participation unless it is to only bring sunshine and blow smoke.

That guy needs more people to tell him off. Maybe if enough people put him in his place rather than give him handouts he'll figure out how to get his life on track.[/quote]

I've had this happen to me too many times here in D.C.

But if you think about it, no really ends up homeless overnight. I mean, sure there could have been some life changing event(s) that took place, but if you've ever talked to some of these people, they did receive help or had people reach out to them many times, but somewhere down the line they just got "tired of holding on" and just let go; It became easier to just let things run it's course rather than continually fight uphill. And then on the other hand, some had no one to turn to at all.

I'm not supporting this or making excuses, I'm just saying this is the mindset behind how many people end up in these situations. Many of them suffer from chronic depression and other mental illnesses that are either debilitaing or, quite frankly, make them difficult to employ, and they simply can't afford to treat these issues because of a lack of healthcare.

Some are angry and bitter about what life has dealt to them, but you know what, so are gainfully employed people that enjoy the everyday luxuries of life we do. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say in all of this, but the old "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" saying just doesn't cut it for me.

I think the vast majority of homeless people need some degree of compassion and for someone to lift them up, so to speak. And for those who don't want to be lifted out of despair, fine, but I think it's right to help those who need it and want it, and not be discouraged by the few bad apples in the barrel.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=12thMan;327041]I think the vast majority of homeless people need some degree of compassion and for someone to lift them up, so to speak. And for those who don't want to be lifted out of despair, fine, but I think it's right to help those who need it and want it, and not be discouraged by the few bad apples in the barrel.[/quote]

Well stated.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=12thMan;327041]I've had this happen to me too many times here in D.C.

[B][I] But if you think about it, no really ends up homeless overnight. I mean, sure there could have been some life changing event(s) that took place, but if you've ever talked to some of these people, they did receive help or had people reach out to them many times, but somewhere down the line they just got "tired of holding on" and just let go; It became easier to just let things run it's course rather than continually fight uphill. And then on the other hand, some had no one to turn to at all.[/I][/B]

I'm not supporting this or making excuses, I'm just saying this is the mindset behind how many people end up in these situations. Many of them suffer from chronic depression and other mental illnesses that are either debilitaing or, quite frankly, make them difficult to employ, and they simply can't afford to treat these issues because of a lack of healthcare.

Some are angry and bitter about what life has dealt to them, but you know what, so are gainfully employed people that enjoy the everyday luxuries of life we do. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say in all of this, but the old "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" saying just doesn't cut it for me.

I think the vast majority of homeless people need some degree of compassion and for someone to lift them up, so to speak. And for those who don't want to be lifted out of despair, fine, but I think it's right to help those who need it and want it, and not be discouraged by the few bad apples in the barrel.[/quote]

See, while I agree with everything else you said, aren't the ones standing on the side of the road with their hands out the same ones who basically are trying the easy way out? You'd think that welfare is basically the same thing except instead you're standing inside your own home. I always wonder why they don't just go through the proper channels for help.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[QUOTE=12thMan;327041]I've had this happen to me too many times here in D.C.

But if you think about it, no really ends up homeless overnight. I mean, sure there could have been some life changing event(s) that took place, but if you've ever talked to some of these people, they did receive help or had people reach out to them many times, but somewhere down the line they just got "tired of holding on" and just let go; It became easier to just let things run it's course rather than continually fight uphill. And then on the other hand, some had no one to turn to at all.

I'm not supporting this or making excuses, I'm just saying this is the mindset behind how many people end up in these situations. Many of them suffer from chronic depression and other mental illnesses that are either debilitaing or, quite frankly, make them difficult to employ, and they simply can't afford to treat these issues because of a lack of healthcare.

Some are angry and bitter about what life has dealt to them, but you know what, so are gainfully employed people that enjoy the everyday luxuries of life we do. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say in all of this, but the old "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" saying just doesn't cut it for me.

I think the vast majority of homeless people need some degree of compassion and for someone to lift them up, so to speak. And for those who don't want to be lifted out of despair, fine, but I think it's right to help those who need it and want it, and not be discouraged by the few bad apples in the barrel.[/QUOTE]

I've heard this argument before and I can understand it. Having never been homeless or anywhere near it I can admit my perspective is certainly dubious but then again so is everyone's here. I will add that many/most people in the worls making these arguments have just as dubious a perspective as the rest of us. With that said I:

I am pretty tired of hearing this argument. Yes, many homeless people have mental issues. How many have self inflicted mental issues though? I don't know but I think I am smart enough to know that it isn't an insignificant portion. Not sure of the number but I do know an astoundingly high amount of homeless people are alcoholics/drgu addicts and many attribute their place in life to alcoholism. No matter what some would have you believe alcohol is a choice. No one makes you drink to the point of self-destruct. As for drugs well they were a stupid decision when you started and if you can't bring yourself to do what is necessary to kick them then why should I?

My problem is with the portion of the homless that simply are looking for handouts, not helping hands. This is not a small portion. Ther are plenty of homeless that deserve help but to get help you need to show that you are going to use it for the better. You are going to advance your place in life. Otherwise it is simpy a drain.

I agree the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" doesn't get it done most of the time. I want everyone to help them "pull themselves up" But they need to be pulling too. If they aren't then they don't deserve help.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;327045]See, while I agree with everything else you said, aren't the ones standing on the side of the road with their hands out the same ones who basically are trying the easy way out? You'd think that welfare is basically the same thing except instead you're standing inside your own home. I always wonder why they don't just go through the proper channels for help.[/quote]


To that I don't have an answer; And yes, I've seen them with their hand out on the side of the road.

But my guess is, we tend to scrutinize their actions a little more, rightfully or wrongfully I don't know, because they are indeed homeless and we want to know "why and how".

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

I'd like to see some studies or research on this issue. I see a lot of strong assumptions being made and frankly I think people are quite biased in thinking that most homeless people are just lazy drunks or drug addicts looking for handouts.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

I see plenty of homeless people with the signs on the side of the road but, really, that's a bare fraction of the entire homeless population and some of those lazy assess aren't even homeless. Using the "roadside guys" as general example of homeless people is Michael Moore-ish (misleading). I volunteer on occasion at a soup kitchen. Seeing a mother and father with 2 kids in tow looking like at any moment they could just burst into tears will alter your way of thinking. Some people go through a run of bad circumstances that takes the will to fight right out of you. Try doing anything when you truly feel it won't make a bit of difference because so far nothing has. I challenge anyone to go homeless for 3 months and then try to get back on your feet with no help from mommy and daddy or whoever you might have as a benefactor.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=FRPLG;327046]I've heard this argument before and I can understand it. Having never been homeless or anywhere near it I can admit my perspective is certainly dubious but then again so is everyone's here. I will add that many/most people in the worls making these arguments have just as dubious a perspective as the rest of us. With that said I:

I am pretty tired of hearing this argument. Yes, many homeless people have mental issues. How many have self inflicted mental issues though? I don't know but I think I am smart enough to know that it isn't an insignificant portion. Not sure of the number but I do know an astoundingly high amount of homeless people are alcoholics/drgu addicts and many attribute their place in life to alcoholism. No matter what some would have you believe alcohol is a choice. No one makes you drink to the point of self-destruct. As for drugs well they were a stupid decision when you started and if you can't bring yourself to do what is necessary to kick them then why should I?

My problem is with the portion of the homless that simply are looking for handouts, not helping hands. This is not a small portion. Ther are plenty of homeless that deserve help but to get help you need to show that you are going to use it for the better. You are going to advance your place in life. Otherwise it is simpy a drain.

I agree the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" doesn't get it done most of the time. I want everyone to help them "pull themselves up" But they need to be pulling too. If they aren't then they don't deserve help.[/quote]

I agree here too. But the fact is, many Americans are probably one or two paychecks away from being pretty darn close to homeless. I think what separates them from the homeless guy or woman, in some cases at least, is they actually have either the sheer tenacity or the resourses to actually keep them off the streets.

I guess my position on this really stems from two things: My belief in the scriptures that adheres to the idea that we should feed the hungry, provide shelter for the homeless, and cloth the naked. To me that's not just a Christian tenet, but a human tenet as well. I also think there is something very American about taking care of those less fortunate. Of course, all things must be done in balance and not put too much of a strain on those that keep the ecomony churning, but I think you guys get the spirit of what I saying here.

And let me say this one last thing too - I don't think the question of whether or not many are deserving should enter into the equation. Because I've received a lot of shit over the course of my life that I didn't deserve, and yet here I am.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

i agree with 12th. all of us, with one wrong decision( or unlucky break) could end up like this. i came up thru the ranks, living like i never thought i could. maybe the same can be said for them

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=Mattyk72;327050]I'd like to see some studies or research on this issue. I see a lot of strong assumptions being made and frankly I think people are quite biased in thinking that most homeless people are just lazy drunks or drug addicts looking for handouts.[/quote]

Even the most bleeding heart liberal on the planet will admit that drugs/alcohol are nearly inseperable from the problem of homelessness. Someone mentioned the Vietnam Vets earlier. Even for them the trauma of combat was probably not enough to make them dysfunctional. You add alcohol or opiates, though, and they go downhill very quickly.

And it's not just homelessness. If you were to remove drug and alcohol abuse (and I mean the severe cases, not the borderline ones on their way to being severe, hmmm, hmmm), you could watch all manner of social ills disappear like that proverbial fart in the wind. Joseph Califano who worked for LBJ and is a Democrat is very strong on this issue. If you are interested in some statistics that will knock your socks off, you might search on him.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

[quote=12thMan;327053]I agree here too. But the fact is, many Americans are probably one or two paychecks away from being pretty darn close to homeless. I think what separates them from the homeless guy or woman, in some cases at least, is they actually have either the sheer tenacity or the resourses to actually keep them off the streets.

I guess my position on this really stems from two things: My belief in the scriptures that adheres to the idea that we should feed the hungry, provide shelter for the homeless, and cloth the naked. To me that's not just a Christian tenet, but a human tenet as well. I also think there is something very American about taking care of those less fortunate. Of course, all things must be done in balance and not put too much of a strain on those that keep the ecomony churning, but I think you guys get the spirit of what I saying here.

And let me say this one last thing too - I don't think the question of whether or not many are deserving should enter into the equation. Because I've received a lot of shit over the course of my life that I didn't deserve, and yet here I am.[/quote]
That is one of the problems is that Americans do not save and spend more than they should. If I lost my job today I could go maybe 8 to 10 years without a pay check. Now, it would drain my savings, stocks, retirement, etc but I could do it if I had to. The rule of thumb is 6 months and I say most people could not live 6 months without their income.

Re: Michael Moore's Latest Target: Your HMO
 

I wanted to post this last night, but the site went down as I was typing:

This concerned me, speaking about France and Canada’s healthcare:

[i]While patients may not pay for services at the doctor's office, they do pay high taxes to fund such a system, something Gupta said he was concerned that "Sicko" audiences might not realize.



Moore responded by saying Americans pay more in copays, deductibles and insurance premiums. "We [America] have a system built on profit," the moviemaker said.[/i]





No "WE" don't. I have a friend that lives in Saskatoon, and she said that they pay over 50% of their salary to taxes for that health care, and if it's life threatening (ie: need surgery NOW), they get put on at least a 6 month waiting list and try to come to America for the surgery instead cause they will die with the healthcare they have up there.

Fact is, there is no perfect health care system anywhere in the world.



I don't know how feasible this is, but if the government does take over, why not circumvent the insurance companies. Really, it's not greedy doctors, or frivolous lawsuits (although that does exist), it's the insurance companies raping the consumers. They are, in affect, a middle man that isn't needed.