Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=Ruhskins;539070]Apparently not, because for Skins fans character issues are only important if it refers to Albert Haynesworth and Deangelo Hall :doh:

Now to be serious, you make a good point and it would majorly suck to be a fan if this were to happen I would bet money that the same people that are calling for Campbell to leave, would be blasting the FO for trading for Cutler if your scenario were to come to fruition.[/quote]

Since you brought up character, again, and this discussion seems to be the more active Cutler/Campbell thread, id like to respond to what you said in the other one...

[quote=Ruhskins;538620]It's also unreasonable to think that

a.) Campbell is the only problem the team has (which ppl arguing for Cutler make it look he is).

b.) Trading for Campbell and bringing Cutler is not going to affect the locker room.

c.) Cutler is going to make an immediate difference when he needs to learn the system, is not accustomed to our WRs, and needs to develop a rapport with Zorn (things that Campbell is expected to accomplish since...wait for it...he's in the SAME offense for the 2nd year in a row!).[/quote]

a) Only a fool would think Campbell is the only problem with this team - i certainly havent been arguing that, but I do think Campbell is A problem and since QB is the most important position on a team, if we have the opportunity for to significantly upgrade the position, we should. If Campbells contract werent up after this season or he were a better fit for the system were in, the story would be different. However, the fact that Campbells contract IS up next year and he isnt where we need him to be, and we're faced with the possibility next year of losing him in free agency without compensation, it makes sense to atleast investigate the QB postion now.

b) That is actually a very good point. Campbell is well-liked and is exactly what you want your QB to be when it comes to attitude and leadership off the field. However, winning chanes everything and if we upgraded the QB position and won more games, the team would be fine with it. On the other hand, if Cutler came here and sucked it up or Campbell went elsewhere and tore it up... things would get real ugly.

c) Those are factors to consider, but you forget that Campbell has been in the same system 2 years in a row before - one that far better suited his skillset - one where he had a far better offensive line and - one that had a much better running game and better performance from Tana - and he still didnt "step up." If he didnt do it then, what makes you think he will do it now?

That last part is a key point for me. [I]Why do so many people expect Campbell to be a much better QB and play much better in his 2nd year under Zorn? [/I]

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;539134]Since you brought up character, again, and this discussion seems to be the more active Cutler/Campbell thread, id like to respond to what you said in the other one...



a) Only a fool would think Campbell is the only problem with this team - i certainly havent been arguing that, but I do think Campbell is A problem and since QB is the most important position on a team, if we have the opportunity for to significantly upgrade the position, we should. If Campbells contract werent up after this season or he were a better fit for the system were in, the story would be different. However, the fact that Campbells contract IS up next year and he isnt where we need him to be, and we're faced with the possibility next year of losing him in free agency without compensation, it makes sense to atleast investigate the QB postion now.

b) That is actually a very good point. Campbell is well-liked and is exactly what you want your QB to be when it comes to attitude and leadership off the field. However, winning chanes everything and if we upgraded the QB position and won more games, the team would be fine with it. On the other hand, if Cutler came here and sucked it up or Campbell went elsewhere and tore it up... things would get real ugly.

c) Those are factors to consider, but you forget that Campbell has been in the same system 2 years in a row before - one that far better suited his skillset - one where he had a far better offensive line and - one that had a much better running game and better performance from Tana - and he still didnt "step up." If he didnt do it then, what makes you think he will do it now?

That last part is a key point for me. [I][B]Why do so many people expect Campbell to be a much better QB and play much better in his 2nd year under Zorn?[/B] [/I][/quote]

I thought [B]I [/B]was obsessive compulsive. I guess the same reason Hassleback sp? got better. I guess the same reason every QB who has played in the same system for more than 1 year gets better. You do realize that every QB that has played in the WCO has said it takes [B]at least[/B] 2 years to become efficient in it right? Do you just dismiss this notion? You do realize the o-line declined in the second half of the season and is expected to be better this year? You understand that by all logic, Thomas and Davis should be better this year right? You understand that Kelly could actually contribute right? You understand that these things are very important to the offense right? I enjoy most of your posts BHA, but you dismiss[B] way[/B] to many factors to make your point.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;539134]Since you brought up character, again, and this discussion seems to be the more active Cutler/Campbell thread, id like to respond to what you said in the other one...



a) Only a fool would think Campbell is the only problem with this team - i certainly havent been arguing that, but I do think Campbell is A problem and since QB is the most important position on a team, if we have the opportunity for to significantly upgrade the position, we should. If Campbells contract werent up after this season or he were a better fit for the system were in, the story would be different. However, the fact that Campbells contract IS up next year and he isnt where we need him to be, and we're faced with the possibility next year of losing him in free agency without compensation, it makes sense to atleast investigate the QB postion now.

b) That is actually a very good point. Campbell is well-liked and is exactly what you want your QB to be when it comes to attitude and leadership off the field. However, winning chanes everything and if we upgraded the QB position and won more games, the team would be fine with it. On the other hand, if Cutler came here and sucked it up or Campbell went elsewhere and tore it up... things would get real ugly.

[b]c) Those are factors to consider, but you forget that Campbell has been in the same system 2 years in a row before - one that far better suited his skillset - one where he had a far better offensive line and - one that had a much better running game and better performance from Tana - and he still didnt "step up." If he didnt do it then, what makes you think he will do it now? [/b]

That last part is a key point for me. [I]Why do so many people expect Campbell to be a much better QB and play much better in his 2nd year under Zorn? [/I][/quote]
I know this isn't my fight, but I've got to interject something here. Everyone (offensive players, coaches, Saunders, Campbell) acknowledged that Saunders was coaching with one hand tied behind his back by Gibbs. It's not fair to put the lack of offensive production in '07 all on Campbell. Gibbs only let Campbell read one side of the field and 2 receivers. Saunders was 'calling the plays' according to what Gibbs allowed him to call. It's not really a true gauge of what Campbell could have done in the system because he was never allowed to truly explore it freely. Now back to your regularly scheduled argument already in progress.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=Paintrain;539145]I know this isn't my fight, but I've got to interject something here. Everyone (offensive players, coaches, Saunders, Campbell) acknowledged that Saunders was coaching with one hand tied behind his back by Gibbs. It's not fair to put the lack of offensive production in '07 all on Campbell. Gibbs only let Campbell read one side of the field and 2 receivers. Saunders was 'calling the plays' according to what Gibbs allowed him to call. It's not really a true gauge of what Campbell could have done in the system because he was never allowed to truly explore it freely. Now back to your regularly scheduled argument already in progress.[/quote]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[quote]
Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat View Post
a) Only a fool would think Campbell is the only problem with this team - i certainly havent been arguing that, [B]but I do think Campbell is A problem and since QB is the most important position on a team, if we have the opportunity for to significantly upgrade the position, we should.[/B] If Campbells contract werent up after this season or he were a better fit for the system were in, the story would be different. However, the fact that Campbells contract IS up next year and he isnt where we need him to be, and we're faced with the possibility next year of losing him in free agency without compensation, it makes sense to at least investigate the QB postion now.[/quote]

Any trade for Jay Cutler would most likely involve either our 1st rounder or any future picks. In a year when we have so many other (more important) needs, and limited resources (cap/draft picks) getting rid of Campbell at the expense of draft picks is a high price to pay. I wouldn't even put QB play as one of the top two issues that we had last year, so risking so much and gamble that a new QB is going to fix everything is not a good idea.

[quote]Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat View Post
b) That is actually a very good point. Campbell is well-liked and is exactly what you want your QB to be when it comes to attitude and leadership off the field. However, winning chanes everything and if we upgraded the QB position and won more games, the team would be fine with it. [B]On the other hand, if Cutler came here and sucked it up[/B] or Campbell went elsewhere and tore it up... things would get real ugly.[/quote]

With the PR nightmare that Cutler has caused, even if he had an average season, there would be issues in the locker room. Cutler would need to lead the team deep into the playoffs in order for morale not to be affected. You mentioned that QB is the most important position in the team, and I agree with you, now are you willing to risk the repercussions of getting rid of a well-liked/respected player in Campbell and replace him with someone like Cutler? I mean look at what the Jets went through with Favre last season (although not necessarily the the same situation, but close).

[quote]Originally Posted by BigHairedAristocrat View Post
c) Those are factors to consider, but you forget that Campbell has been in the same system 2 years in a row before - one that far better suited his skillset - one where he had a far better offensive line and - one that had a much better running game and better performance from Tana - and he still didnt "step up." If he didnt do it then, what makes you think he will do it now?[/quote]

Jason Campbell played not even half a season the year that Saunder was brought in, therefore he didn't practice with the first-team more than half the season and during training camp. I think it's unfair to say that he was in Gibbs/Saunders system for two years in a row, when he wasn't the starter for half the season. Not to mention the whole issues mentioned by Paintrain with the game calling. Last season, Jason Campbell was the starting QB during training camp, the preseason and the regular season, and this would make the first time that he will (hopefully) enter a second year (after a full first year) in the same offense and with the same coach as the starting QB.

I honestly feel Gibbs/Saunders should have thrown him to the fire and make him start his second year. Instead, JC sat on the bench his rookie year and half of his second year, watching Mark Brunell throw 5 yd passes.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;539134]That last part is a key point for me. [I]Why do so many people expect Campbell to be a much better QB and play much better in his 2nd year under Zorn? [/I][/quote]

Is this even a serious question?

I guess experience and familiarity with a system doesn't count for anything in your book?

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=Mattyk72;539175]Is this even a serious question?

I guess experience and familiarity with a system doesn't count for anything in your book?[/quote]

I also don't get why people don't put blame on the line and WRs? ARE and Moss played like crap towards the end of the season dropping all kinds of passes. Also with a new offense the line needs to step up, but injuries really hurt us.

Obviously if this next season looks similar blame can be placed on Zorn/Campbell.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

Clearly like JC or not he has a job to do and that is WIN games PERIOD. If this year he is successful he should be here for a while if not hes gone plain and simple.

And the same applies to Zorn IMO.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=skinsfan_nn;539184]Clearly like JC or not he has a job to do and that is WIN games PERIOD. If this year he is successful he should be here for a while if not hes gone plain and simple.

And the same applies to Zorn IMO.[/quote]

I think everyone understands this, and I don't know why people feel we need to get rid of him this year.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

He will be the starter if he throws more td's than ints, and we have a winning record. If he fails at either of those two, we'll have a new coach and qb in 2010.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=Mattyk72;539175]Is this even a serious question?

I guess experience and familiarity with a system doesn't count for anything in your book?[/quote]

As I said in the sentence immediately before the sentence you quoted from, its a serious question because:

Campbell had experience and familiarity with Saunders system (he was in it two years), and it didnt "count for anything" then. It did not benefit him at all. He took no giant leaps forward. For that reason, i'm asking - if two years in the same system didnt work before, what makes you think it will work now?

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=skinsfan_nn;539184]Clearly like JC or not he has a job to do and that is WIN games PERIOD. If this year he is successful he should be here for a while if not hes gone plain and simple.

And the same applies to Zorn IMO.[/quote]

Thats what I said last year reguarding Campbell. We've been saying "one more year" for him for too long.

[quote=Ruhskins;539170]Couldn't have said it better myself.

Any trade for Jay Cutler would most likely involve either our 1st rounder or any future picks. In a year when we have so many other (more important) needs, and limited resources (cap/draft picks) getting rid of Campbell at the expense of draft picks is a high price to pay. I wouldn't even put QB play as one of the top two issues that we had last year, so risking so much and gamble that a new QB is going to fix everything is not a good idea.




With the PR nightmare that Cutler has caused, even if he had an average season, there would be issues in the locker room. Cutler would need to lead the team deep into the playoffs in order for morale not to be affected. You mentioned that QB is the most important position in the team, and I agree with you, now are you willing to risk the repercussions of getting rid of a well-liked/respected player in Campbell and replace him with someone like Cutler? I mean look at what the Jets went through with Favre last season (although not necessarily the the same situation, but close).

Jason Campbell played not even half a season the year that Saunder was brought in, therefore he didn't practice with the first-team more than half the season and during training camp. I think it's unfair to say that he was in Gibbs/Saunders system for two years in a row, when he wasn't the starter for half the season. Not to mention the whole issues mentioned by Paintrain with the game calling. Last season, Jason Campbell was the starting QB during training camp, the preseason and the regular season, and this would make the first time that he will (hopefully) enter a second year (after a full first year) in the same offense and with the same coach as the starting QB.

I honestly feel Gibbs/Saunders should have thrown him to the fire and make him start his second year. Instead, JC sat on the bench his rookie year and half of his second year, watching Mark Brunell throw 5 yd passes.[/quote]

I guess thats your take on it - my take was its going to take years to fix our o-line and since it cant be done overnight, we're better off having a QB who gets rid of the ball quicker (to copensate for a line that allows the QB less time). I agree fixing the line is a priority - i guess i personally would rather lock the QB position up with a known comodity this year and not have to worry about getting a new QB next year. i think the basic premise i am coming from us just so different from everyone else - i am close to certain Campbell will fail in this system and we will need a new starting QB next year. I dont forsee any good free agent QBs becoming available, so that means drafting a QB, which is a huge gamble. The chances of us getting a good QB in the draft arent necessarily good. We'd probably have to trade up to get one of the big two, which means giving up even more picks. And if we take a QB further down, it likely means letting him sit on the bench a couple years... so that means 2-3 more years without the QB position resolved. QB is the most important position on a team. Having the right QB can compensate for a multitude of weaknesses, so long as they are not too glaring - look at how good Matt Ryan did last year behind a line that was worse than ours.

I also agree we could be in an entirely different situation now if Campbell had been named the starter his second year. Gibbs stuck with Brunell far too long and if Campbell had been the starter going into year 3, everything MIGHT have been clicking well enough that Snyder would have kept Saunders around for a 3rd year and we could have JC entering his 4th year in a system now that fits his skills perfectly. Instead we're stuck with Zorn trying to put a square peg in a round hole and the chances of success are slim to none. At this point, i view it as a near certainty that Zorn is going to be fired, which by default means Campbell is gone too. I mean, do you REALY think Campbell would want to stick around here to learn yet another offense?

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;539217]I guess thats your take on it - my take was its going to take years to fix our o-line and since it cant be done overnight, we're better off having a QB who gets rid of the ball quicker (to copensate for a line that allows the QB less time). I agree fixing the line is a priority - i guess i personally would rather lock the QB position up with a known comodity this year and not have to worry about getting a new QB next year. i think the basic premise i am coming from us just so different from everyone else - [B]i am close to certain Campbell will fail in this system and we will need a new starting QB next year.[/B] I dont forsee any good free agent QBs becoming available, so that means drafting a QB, which is a huge gamble. The chances of us getting a good QB in the draft arent necessarily good. We'd probably have to trade up to get one of the big two, which means giving up even more picks. And if we take a QB further down, it likely means letting him sit on the bench a couple years... so that means 2-3 more years without the QB position resolved. QB is the most important position on a team. Having the right QB can compensate for a multitude of weaknesses, so long as they are not too glaring - look at how good Matt Ryan did last year behind a line that was worse than ours.[/quote]

- If Campbell or whatever other QB fails or even does average (but misses the playoff), Zorn will be fired and the team will and should be blown up. Trading for Cutler would make no sense, b/c you'd be doing what everyone accuses the Redskins FO of doing (drafting away picks, not grooming their own players, etc., etc.). So I don't see the rationale behind trading away Campbell and picks (once again, I believe trading for Cutler will cost us picks)

- I don't think your argument that Campbell will most certainly fail holds up given how well Campbell did during the first 8 games of the season. And no offense, but I have not heard any expert claim this (that Campbell will fail in Zorn's offense). Though many of them do see this upcoming season as do or die.


[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;539217]I also agree we could be in an entirely different situation now if Campbell had been named the starter his second year. [B]Gibbs stuck with Brunell far too long and if Campbell had been the starter going into year 3, everything MIGHT have been clicking well enough that Snyder would have kept Saunders around for a 3rd year and we could have JC entering his 4th year in a system now that fits his skills perfectly.[/B] Instead we're stuck with Zorn trying to put a square peg in a round hole and the chances of success are slim to none. At this point, i view it as a near certainty that Zorn is going to be fired, which by default means Campbell is gone too. I mean, do you REALY think Campbell would want to stick around here to learn yet another offense?[/quote]

- I think this is exactly why JC should be given this upcoming season to see if he succeeds. You argued that Campbell has been in the same system two years in a row before, and I argued against it since it was a season and a half, that doesn't give you the luxury of spending two offseasons/training camps with your coach.

- If JC is such a square peg, why was he successful in the first half of the season? I think the responsibility is on Zorn to make sure that Campbell succeeds in his system, and for 8 games, he did.

- Finally, I don't think anyone is arguing that Campbell should be declare our franchise QB for years to come. He has to prove that next year, if he doesn't, he'll be gone, along with Zorn and like I said the team will need to be blown up. Brining Cutler will cause the team to say that they are reloading, and use it as an excuse to patch things up and try to go with a half-assed team in 2010.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;539216]As I said in the sentence immediately before the sentence you quoted from, its a serious question because:

Campbell had experience and familiarity with Saunders system (he was in it two years), and it didnt "count for anything" then. It did not benefit him at all. He took no giant leaps forward. For that reason, i'm asking - if two years in the same system didnt work before, what makes you think it will work now?[/quote]

Campbell had 20 starts in Saunders offense, not really enough of a body of work to properly judge how he could have done had they left Saunders in place to continue his development. My guess is he would have taken a nice leap forward in year 3. Plus you have to consider he was in just his 2nd and 3rd years under Saunders and was already in offense #2.

His numbers in Zorn year #1 showed improvement. His completion % was up, his INTs and fumbles were way down, and his overall QB rating took a nearly a 7 point jump. I'm pretty secure in saying I think in Zorn year #2 he's going to take another step forward. It's definitely premature to say he can't fit in this offense or be successful. He at least deserves a 2nd year to tell if he can be the guy or not.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;539216]As I said in the sentence immediately before the sentence you quoted from, its a serious question because:

Campbell had experience and familiarity with Saunders system (he was in it two years), and it didnt "count for anything" then. It did not benefit him at all. He took no giant leaps forward. For that reason, i'm asking - if two years in the same system didnt work before, what makes you think it will work now?[/quote]
I've dissected and refuted your arguments on the Campbell thing before (as did GTripp), so I won't rehash. But bottom line (which you never responded to in other threads where we discussed this), how do you explain Campbell's Pro Bowl level numbers in early 2008 as "not being a good fit" for our system?

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=Mattyk72;539221]Campbell had 20 starts in Saunders offense, not really enough of a body of work to properly judge how he could have done had they left Saunders in place to continue his development. [B] My guess is he would have taken a nice leap forward in year 3.[/B] Plus you have to consider he was in just his 2nd and 3rd years under Saunders and was already in offense #2.

His numbers in Zorn year #1 showed improvement. His completion % was up, his INTs and fumbles were way down, and his overall QB rating took a nearly a 7 point jump. I'm pretty secure in saying I think in Zorn year #2 he's going to take another step forward. It's definitely premature to say he can't fit in this offense or be successful. He at least deserves a 2nd year to tell if he can be the guy or not.[/quote]

I'm not so sure I understand exactly what your basing that from? Remember Collins was just coming off a huge ending to that season.

JC in year two of Al's offense was below par IMO to begin with. I think that's when most within the org. really started to question whether this guy could be the next leader of this team.

As you recall when Al's guy Todd Collins got in the game after Cambell went down in week fourteen, someone that knew and understood what Al wanted we got on a roll and peeled of 4 big games straight and he lead us to a playoff birth.

If Joe & Al would have stayed who knows if JC would have seen a year number 3 as a starter, it could have very well been Collins at the helm. In my point of view even remembering Joe's final presser (Pre-Retirement) I gathered there would at least be a competion for the starting QB position for the following season as he would not commit to Cambell and I think that was a smart move on his behalf. Then we all know what happened Joe descided to step down.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=skinsfan_nn;539245]I'm not so sure I understand exactly what your basing that from? Remember Collins was just coming off a huge ending to that season.

JC in year two of Al's offense was below par IMO to begin with. I think that's when most within the org. really started to question whether this guy could be the next leader of this team.

As you recall when Al's guy Todd Collins got in the game after Cambell went down in week fourteen, someone that knew and understood what Al wanted we got on a roll and peeled of 4 big games straight and he lead us to a playoff birth.

If Joe & Al would have stayed who knows if JC would have seen a year number 3 as a starter, it could have very well been Collins at the helm. In my point of view even remembering Joe's final presser (Pre-Retirement) I gathered there would at least be a competion for the starting QB position for the following season as he would not commit to Cambell and I think that was a smart move on his behalf. Then we all know what happened Joe descided to step down.[/quote]

JC would have remained the starter had everyone come back. There's no way they would have pulled the plug on him after his first year as the starter for a 36 year old QB who got hot for 4 games.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;539230]I've dissected and refuted your arguments on the Campbell thing before (as did GTripp), so I won't rehash. But bottom line (which you never responded to in other threads where we discussed this), how do you explain Campbell's Pro Bowl level numbers in early 2008 as "not being a good fit" for our system?[/quote]

Sorry if i missed your responses in the other thread, getting to your bottom line statement -

Campbell was NOT playing at a pro-bowl level early on in the season. All that talk was ridiculous at the time, especially him being talked about as MVP of the league, let alone the team. All campbell did in the first few games was just not throw interceptions... something which was primarily a result Zorn not letting him throw much and really giving him an elementary form of the offense to run. Obviously, when Zorn opened things up some, Campbell was asked to do more... and we all know how the last 8 games went. We did so well in the first half of the season because Campbell wasnt doing much and we were relying on Clinton Portis. As the season wore on, our line declined and so did Clinton. Zorn tried to open things up, he put more on Campbells shoulders, and Campbell couldnt handle it.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=skinsfan_nn;539245][B]JC in year two of Al's offense was below par IMO to begin with. I think that's when most within the org. really started to question whether this guy could be the next leader of this team.[/B]

If Joe & Al would have stayed who knows if JC would have seen a year number 3 as a starter, it could have very well been Collins at the helm. In my point of view even remembering Joe's final presser (Pre-Retirement) I gathered there would at least be a competion for the starting QB position for the following season as he would not commit to Cambell and I think that was a smart move on his behalf. Then we all know what happened Joe descided to step down.[/quote]If, 20 starts into a guys career, despite drafting absolutely zero offensive talent (save Campbell himself) since 2004, ANYONE in the organization is questioning his leadership skills, then that's a problem with the organization, not with Campbell.

And I'll just point this out quickly, Joe Gibbs didn't get where he was as a coach by giving up on a 25 year old promising QB for a 36 year old with fewer good games in 12 years in the league than the 25 year old has in 20 starts.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;539253]Campbell was NOT playing at a pro-bowl level early on in the season. All that talk was ridiculous at the time, especially him being talked about as MVP of the league, let alone the team. All campbell did in the first few games was just not throw interceptions... something which was primarily a result Zorn not letting him throw much and really giving him an elementary form of the offense to run. Obviously, when Zorn opened things up some, Campbell was asked to do more... and we all know how the last 8 games went. We did so well in the first half of the season because Campbell wasnt doing much and we were relying on Clinton Portis. As the season wore on, our line declined and so did Clinton. Zorn tried to open things up, he put more on Campbells shoulders, and Campbell couldnt handle it.[/quote]Your hypothesis here is totally and completely factually incorrect at every corner.

But the funny thing is, it's totally necessary for the rest of the argument you've made in this thread to make sense.

You have to deny, deny, deny what has been accepted by fans and the media as common knowledge, but you can't provide one smidgen of evidence to the contrary. Only, you make a hypothesis that relies on the assumption that Campbell is everything that's wrong with the Skins offense to make sense (which obviously is why it makes sense to you. you believe that unconditionally). Except, that's exactly what you're trying to prove.

[I]"I believe 'X'. Therefore, X is proven by the fact that 'Y', something else I believe, necessarily requires that X is true."[/I]

Circular logic? That's a basic logical fallacy is it not?

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=GTripp0012;539266]Your hypothesis here is totally and completely factually incorrect at every corner.

But the funny thing is, it's totally necessary for the rest of the argument you've made in this thread to make sense.

You have to deny, deny, deny what has been accepted by fans and the media as common knowledge, but you can't provide one smidgen of evidence to the contrary. Only, you make a hypothesis that relies on the assumption that Campbell is everything that's wrong with the Skins offense to make sense (which obviously is why it makes sense to you. you believe that unconditionally). Except, that's exactly what you're trying to prove.

[I]"I believe 'X'. Therefore, X is proven by the fact that X is something I believe."[/I]

Circular logic? That's a basic logical fallacy is it not?[/quote]
I realy hate to put it like this, but Campbell sssucks!!!!

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

Also, Ron Jaworski at the time vs. BHA revisionist history is one battle where Jaws has pretty heavy odds in favor.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=T.O.Killa;539268]I realy hate to put it like this, but Campbell sssucks!!!![/quote]I really don't mind putting it like this, but I know you're wrong.

(I'm going to regret wasting the 10 seconds it took to respond to this later tonight when my term paper is not finished.)

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

On this level I've gotta admit a level of admiration for BHA, he doesn't mind verbally sparring with the bullies who are kicking him senseless while he's already down, metaphorically speaking.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;539253]Sorry if i missed your responses in the other thread, getting to your bottom line statement -

[B]Campbell was NOT playing at a pro-bowl level early on in the season. All that talk was ridiculous at the time, especially him being talked about as MVP of the league, let alone the team.[/B] All campbell did in the first few games was just not throw interceptions... something which was primarily a result Zorn not letting him throw much and really giving him an elementary form of the offense to run. Obviously, when Zorn opened things up some, Campbell was asked to do more... and we all know how the last 8 games went. We did so well in the first half of the season because Campbell wasnt doing much and we were relying on Clinton Portis. As the season wore on, our line declined and so did Clinton. Zorn tried to open things up, he put more on Campbells shoulders, and Campbell couldnt handle it.[/quote]

[URL="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&page=hotread8/clayton"]John Clayton on Jason Campbell (early in the season):[/URL]
[quote]The Redskins, improved because Jason Campbell is having a season similar to David Garrard of the Jaguars last year, have only three home games left, all in the NFC East. Campbell and first-year coach Jim Zorn were a little lost in the regular-season opener against the Giants, a 16-7 loss. If the Zorn-Campbell alliance gets hot against the Giants, the Redskins have a chance to capture the NFC East title.[/quote]

Again, [URL="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=3644419"]Clayton on Campbell[/URL] early in the season....
[quote]Yes, Campbell is the answer. He showed leadership in 2007 in setting up a playoff run. He's matured into an efficient quarterback this season who is only getting better.[/quote]

And of course there's what [URL="http://search.espn.go.com/jason-campbell/audio/7"]Jaworski was saying about him[/URL] early in the season...
[quote]Jaws previews Cowboys-Giants, Colts-Patriots and Titans-Packers and says Jason Campbell is the MVP of the league[/quote]

I think Jaws and Clayton are pretty respected sources.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=GTripp0012;539264]If, 20 starts into a guys career, despite drafting absolutely zero offensive talent (save Campbell himself) since 2004, [B]ANYONE in the organization is questioning his leadership skills, then that's a problem with the organization, not with Campbell[/B].

[B]And I'll just point this out quickly, Joe Gibbs didn't get where he was as a coach by giving up on a 25 year old promising QB for a 36 year old with fewer good games in 12 years in the league than the 25 year old has in 20 starts.[/B][/quote]

Huh..? Now it's the organization's fault for questioning his leadership skills? well if so they do pay the bills and how would you know what they question? Maybe even though your in MI you have some inside track? I don't know who is questioning his leadership skills maybe you do..? But as it appears they are certainly questioning his get it done skills, just like I am. Last year of the contract,right. No extension,right. Usually a pretty good reason for that...right. Coach's and staff for the team know and see what is really going on with a player.

Let me remind you. In case it was before your time. Joe Gibbs WON ALL THREE super bowls Coaching the Washington Redskins with Veteran QB's, all in there 30's. Joe put the best QB in the pocket that he thought would give him the best results. Pretty GREAT results, huh...Hall of Fame. Not bad.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=Ruhskins;539287][URL="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&page=hotread8/clayton"]John Clayton on Jason Campbell (early in the season):[/URL]


Again, [URL="http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=3644419"]Clayton on Campbell[/URL] early in the season....


And of course there's what [URL="http://search.espn.go.com/jason-campbell/audio/7"]Jaworski was saying about him[/URL] early in the season...


I think Jaws and Clayton are pretty respected sources.[/quote]

and they were wrong. Mark Brunell looked like the best QB of all time against Dallas when we had that incredible comeback and during the game against the texans when he set the record for completions... but those were just individual games. You cant judge a QB by one game and you cant judge Campbell by 8. All the Campbell apologists focus on the first 8 games and ignore the last 8...

ask any of those "pretty respected sources" if they still feel "Campbell is the answer" now. I garauntee they would give you a different answer... one that would range anywhere from "undetermined" to "no." If Campbell really was the undisputed answer, then he'd have a new contract already. He doesnt. He was not the MVP of the league. He was not the MVP of the team. He did not go to the pro-bowl. He wasnt an alternate. Hes not on anyones list as one of the top QBs in the league. No respected sources are expecting him to become one this year. Fans HOPE he is... but no one who doest drink burgundy and gold koolaid is expecting it. Everyone else is doubting and watching with curiosity at most. The only real support Campbell gets is from the Washington Post... and I wouldnt be surprised if theyre doing that just to get under Cerratos skin. That should tell us something.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

This thread makes me so pissed I could kick a puppy... to read arguments that JC has an above average line and solid WR corp to work w/ is beyond the pale. He had a very good run-blocking line and a Pro-Bowl RB for 8 games. After that most games looked like the '08 SB... NY's front seven smashing Brady into the turf. The difference... Campbell doesn't complain, but don't be a foolish, the results are nearly the same. QBs who get no time to throw and take a pounding every week (38 sacks on the season and most came in the last 8 games) don't go to the Pro-Bowl.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=skinsfan_nn;539302]Huh..? Now it's the organization's fault for questioning his leadership skills? well if so they do pay the bills and how would you know what they question? Maybe even though your in MI you have some inside track? I don't know who is questioning his leadership skills maybe you do..? But as it appears they are certainly questioning his get it done skills, just like I am. Last year of the contract,right. No extension,right. Usually a pretty good reason for that...right. Coach's and staff for the team know and see what is really going on with a player.

Let me remind you. In case it was before your time. Joe Gibbs WON ALL THREE super bowls Coaching the Washington Redskins with Veteran QB's, all in there 30's. Joe put the best QB in the pocket that he thought would give him the best results. Pretty GREAT results, huh...Hall of Fame. Not bad.[/quote]We have a salary cap this year? It's not like there's a rush or anything. We have a franchise tag.

Sorry to have outed you as a Campbell detractor, though. Since you had a really clever disguise going under neutrality.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=GTripp0012;539274]On this level I've gotta admit a level of admiration for BHA, he doesn't mind verbally sparring with the bullies who are kicking him senseless while he's already down, metaphorically speaking.[/quote]

I dont know what factual evidence i can provide that i havent already. I dont use circular logic. I have an opinion, based on facts. You have an opinion, also based on facts. Which facts we chose to use to support our arguments reinforces our existing beliefs. You reject the arguments I make, exaggerate my position to the extreme to make it look foolish and ive taken similar approaches myself.

I would like nothing more than to be wrong about Campbell, because it would mean:

1) Cerrato and Snyder knew what they were doing when they paired the Square peg and round hole... therefore the franchise is in more capeable hands than we thought.

2) We wont need to go shopping for a QB in 2010 when the market will be thin and we'll be crammed for cap space (Roger Godell thinks the CBA will be extended before 2010).

3) We can probably afford to trade Brennan for picks in 2011.

4) We'll have some freakin' stability at the position for the first time since i cant even remember.

5) Zorn will stay, meaning we wont need to continue the constant merry-go-round coaching turnover that happens every few years... the entire franchise can be stable again.

And all that would be nice... but im just not drinkin the koolaid.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;539303]and they were wrong. Mark Brunell looked like the best QB of all time against Dallas when we had that incredible comeback and during the game against the texans when he set the record for completions... but those were just individual games. You cant judge a QB by one game and you cant judge Campbell by 8. [B]All the Campbell apologists focus on the first 8 games and ignore the last 8...[/B][/quote]UHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH...

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Just give it up. I enjoy back and fourth as much as the next guy, but until you take back statements like Cutler for Campbell + 1st rounder is a steal, the quality of the conversation is just going to devolve.

I may or may not be jumping out of this thread now for good, but it's my personal feeling that the Cutler dialouge has run it's course here. I'd just lock it down/send it to thread hell.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=GTripp0012;539308]We have a salary cap this year? It's not like there's a rush or anything. We have a franchise tag.

Sorry to have outed you as a Campbell detractor, though. Since you had a really clever disguise going under neutrality.[/quote]

Doubt we can afford to use the tag on Campbell next year if he plays well. Goddell thinks the CBA will be extended and Haynesworth contract was written in such a way that we'll be screwed if '10 is capped. If Campbell plays at a pro-bowl level and theres a salary cap, we wont be able to keep him. If he sucks, we wont want to keep him whether theres a cap or not.

Basically, the only way Campbells our starting QB in 2010 is if the salary cap goes away AND Campbell plays at a pro-bowl level. What are the odds that both things happen?

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=GTripp0012;539311]UHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH...

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Just give it up. I enjoy back and fourth as much as the next guy, but until you take back statements like Cutler for Campbell + 1st rounder is a steal, the quality of the conversation is just going to devolve.

I may or may not be jumping out of this thread now for good, but it's my personal feeling that the Cutler dialouge has run it's course here. I'd just lock it down/send it to thread hell.[/quote]


1) I dont see how it wouldnt be a steal

2) Im done with the Cutler talk until/unless it seems Denvers going to trade him and there are legitimate reports we're pursuing him.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;539309]I dont know what factual evidence i can provide that i havent already. I dont use circular logic. I have an opinion, based on facts. You have an opinion, also based on facts. Which facts we chose to use to support our arguments reinforces our existing beliefs. You reject the arguments I make, exaggerate my position to the extreme to make it look foolish and ive taken similar approaches myself.

I would like nothing more than to be wrong about Campbell, because it would mean:

1) Cerrato and Snyder knew what they were doing when they paired the Square peg and round hole... therefore the franchise is in more capeable hands than we thought.

2) We wont need to go shopping for a QB in 2010 when the market will be thin and we'll be crammed for cap space (Roger Godell thinks the CBA will be extended before 2010).

3) We can probably afford to trade Brennan for picks in 2011.

4) We'll have some freakin' stability at the position for the first time since i cant even remember.

5) Zorn will stay, meaning we wont need to continue the constant merry-go-round coaching turnover that happens every few years... the entire franchise can be stable again.

And all that would be nice... but im just not drinkin the koolaid.[/quote]I've never asked you to slurp the Kool-Aid, dude. Just to try to see what you're doing in perspective. My goal certainly wasn't to make you look foolish, but I think that's been a byproduct of the back and forth we've had.

In reality:

1) Jay Cutler isn't getting traded (the reasons for this are economic in principle, not cap-wise, but like bargaining wise) even though the trade rumors will continue throughout the offseason.
2) Jay Cutler will likely have continued success in the Denver offense
3) Jason Campbell will continue to improve here, just as the offense around him does
4) We'll look back on this thread hilariously in a year, and realize that this debate was a waste of time. Unless the search function breaks, then we'll never see this again.
5) Zorn probably will stay through 2010 at least.

It's somewhat demeaning that you still want to think there were facts used to back your position, and that the trade proposal wasn't totally ludicrous, but don't you worry, I'll get over it.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=GTripp0012;539315]I've never asked you to slurp the Kool-Aid, dude. Just to try to see what you're doing in perspective. My goal certainly wasn't to make you look foolish, but I think that's been a byproduct of the back and forth we've had.

In reality:

1) Jay Cutler isn't getting traded (the reasons for this are economic in principle, not cap-wise, but like bargaining wise) even though the trade rumors will continue throughout the offseason.
2) Jay Cutler will likely have continued success in the Denver offense
3) Jason Campbell will continue to improve here, just as the offense around him does
4) We'll look back on this thread hilariously in a year, and realize that this debate was a waste of time. Unless the search function breaks, then we'll never see this again.
5) Zorn probably will stay through 2010 at least.[/quote]

I have a feeling if Campbell succeeds here, i'll be eating alot of crow for a long long time. Then again, what happens if he succeeds here but we cant afford to keep him because the Cap doesnt go bye-bye? Do i still eat crow then too?

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;539303]and they were wrong. Mark Brunell looked like the best QB of all time against Dallas when we had that incredible comeback and during the game against the texans when he set the record for completions... but those were just individual games. You cant judge a QB by one game and you cant judge Campbell by 8. All the Campbell apologists focus on the first 8 games and ignore the last 8...

ask any of those "pretty respected sources" if they still feel "Campbell is the answer" now. I garauntee they would give you a different answer... one that would range anywhere from "undetermined" to "no." If Campbell really was the undisputed answer, then he'd have a new contract already. He doesnt. He was not the MVP of the league. He was not the MVP of the team. He did not go to the pro-bowl. He wasnt an alternate. Hes not on anyones list as one of the top QBs in the league. No respected sources are expecting him to become one this year. Fans HOPE he is... but no one who doest drink burgundy and gold koolaid is expecting it. Everyone else is doubting and watching with curiosity at most. That should tell you something.[/quote]

Dude, I'm tired of you. One thing is to doubt the team you follow and hope they do something [U]you think[/U] is better. But you're just trying to prove that you are right. I mean what type of "fan" writes long threads talking about how their team's QB is going to fail? People keep pointing out some factual errors on your argument, yet you just dismiss them as nothing. Shit, at least admit some of those mistakes.

- You stated that Jason Campbell has been in the same offense two years in a row (2006-2007 seasons). FACT: Jason Campbell started ONLY 6 games in 2006 and the whole season 2007. That is not two whole seasons. And the whole part is important, because we are talking about continuity and familiarity with the subject.

- You stated that Jason Campbell was not playing at the Pro Bowl level during the first half of the season. FACT: He was playing at a Pro Bowl level during the first 8 games. And respected sports journalists said so AT THAT TIME. Yes, he declined during the second half, for many reasons, however you dismiss JC's good play in those first 8 games because they don't fit with your anti-Campbell threads.

- You make arguments based on your opinion and treat them as facts. And make predictions that you are so certain about them, they sound fanatical. FACT: You and I are fans, not football experts. If you are one, please enlighten us then, but as far as what I know about you, you are not one (and neither am I).

- Finally, you DO realize that as fans we're supposed to drink the Kool Aid? Shit, I'm a big Maryland Terrapins fan, and I had them in the Sweet Sixteen in my bracket, not because it makes sense or I studied tape or I'm freaking Andy Katz, I did it because I'm a fan and as a fan I drink the Kool Aid.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;539316]I have a feeling if Campbell succeeds here, i'll be eating alot of crow for a long long time. Then again, what happens if he succeeds here but we cant afford to keep him because the Cap doesnt go bye-bye? Do i still eat crow then too?[/quote]There are only four things that can happen with Campbell's game:

1) Campbell can not improve, in which case we go another direction (the reasons this is almost certain not to happen are numerous, but it requires an accurate understanding of the reason for the statistical decline in Campbell Weeks 10-17 last year)

2) Campbell does improve, but the team is oblivious to this for whatever reason (misses playoffs, etc), and goes another way for bad reasoning (I'm a lot more fearful of this than No. 1)

3) Campbell improves, and we extend or tag him. Basically, if he becomes our franchise QB, we keep him, regardless of the cost to us in 2010. (That cost, unfortunately, might be Rogers, worst case)

4) Campbell gets injured and misses 2009. In this case, all bets are off.

No idea if you'll hang around here long enough to eat crow, or whether I'll even care if you do. Seasons a long time away.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

JC is not going to be renewed in 2010 unless he gets us into the playoffs. I think that should be obvious by now. Guy isn't all that. That being said he isn't a bad QB by a long shot. Actually statwise he is above average, but still in the average range. The guy has problems with his mechanics that haven't been corrected for the most part and to me still hasn't really taken on the leadership position we were expecting him to take(This is Portis' team). On top of that he doesn't have the greatest talent to work with with regards to the WR corp. When your best receiver is your TE, you are hurting. I can't see Danny spending a wad of dough to retain this guy as a backup if he falters this season. I also do not envision Brennan to be our "savior" either. The kid played in a pussy league and when he played a bigtime team he got trounced. THat being said, our scouting personnel better start concentrating on QBs in the '10,'11, or even '12 drafts because we are going to need them badly.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=The Goat;539305]This thread makes me so pissed I could kick a puppy... to read arguments that JC has an above average line and solid WR corp to work w/ is beyond the pale. He had a very good run-blocking line and a Pro-Bowl RB for 8 games. After that most games looked like the '08 SB... NY's front seven smashing Brady into the turf. The difference... Campbell doesn't complain, but don't be a foolish, the results are nearly the same. QBs who get no time to throw and take a pounding every week (38 sacks on the season and most came in the last 8 games) don't go to the Pro-Bowl.[/quote]


JC didn't exactly help himself either Goat. I don't think he should be ragged on super heavily for sure, but he wasn't exactly lighting it up during the 6-2 run. We were winning, but not by much. We made Detroit look decent even. I could have swallowed JC throwing a few picks in return for half a dozen TDs during that 6-2 run. At least we would look like a somewhat efficient offense.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;539322]JC didn't exactly help himself either Goat. I don't think he should be ragged on super heavily for sure, but he wasn't exactly lighting it up during the 6-2 run. We were winning, but not by much. We made Detroit look decent even. I could have swallowed JC throwing a few picks in return for half a dozen TDs during that 6-2 run. At least we would look like a somewhat efficient offense.[/quote]The Moss TD after he shook the unblocked guy was crazy awesome.

And, yeah, it was the Lions, but he did throw for 350 or something that day.

Re: Per Vinny Cerrato, JC is our QB this season!
 

[quote=GTripp0012;539323]The Moss TD after he shook the unblocked guy was crazy awesome.

And, yeah, it was the Lions, but he did throw for 350 or something that day.[/quote]

Stop drinking the Kool Aid maaaan. LOL. :smashfrea