Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;565972]Obama's plan is allready working (well not working that good) in Massachusetts but when I posted this in another thread people who argue for un health care seem to ignore post like this. I guess its hard to argue against facts of how its not working in Massachusetts when the numbers show its actually driving up cost and is now more then private ins. Then you just need to take a look at Ca. and their 26 billion in dept from social programs just like this but why let facts get in the way.

The proponents of the Massachusetts reforms
also promised that those reforms would
reduce health care costs. Governor Romney
said that “the cost of health care would be reduced”
and the plan would make health insurance
“affordable” for every Massachusetts citizen.


27

Supporters suggested that the reforms


would reduce the price of individual insurance

policies by 25–40 percent.



28

In reality, insurance premiums rose by 7.4

percent in 2007, 8–12 percent in 2008, and are
expected to rise 9 percent this year.



29 By comparison,


nationwide insurance costs rose by

6.1 percent in 2007, just 4.7 percent in 2008,
and are projected to increase 6.4 percent this
year.



30 On average, health insurance costs


$16,897 for a family of four in Massachusetts,


compared to $12,700 nationally.

31



Boy that sounds just like what the Dems and Obama are saying right now.
[URL]http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp112.pdf[/URL]

I know this was not the best copy and paste but for the people who feel so strong about goverment run ins. why do you think it will be any different in cost then what happened here. Then just name a large federal programe that is not over budget or running in the negative. I just think we aill have the same results as Massachusetts.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;566277]You know common sense is subjective right?

[LIST=1][*][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_defender#Federal_Public_Defender_systems"]Public defense[/URL] done right [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_defender#Comparison_of_state_and_Federal_PD_systems"]is every bit as good[/URL] as private defense. You knew this, right?[*]My cousin is a nurse at a veteran hospital in Phoenix AZ. She tells me they provide service comparable to that of the private sector and that they are behind none when it comes to bionics research. The most recent Survey of Veterans can be found [URL="http://www1.va.gov/vetdata/page.cfm?pg=5"]here[/URL], my cousin might be full of shit and I'm you'll wade through it and tell me if you find something interesting, right?[*]McDonald's is really a bad example of a private company that sells quality products. They are in the business of cutting corners to maximize profits and their food is not fit to serve a dog. This is common sense and I am sure you understand where I am coming from, right?[/LIST]For a brief moment I thought I knew what you were getting at but then I realized you and I don't think alike.[/quote]

Your link "is every bit as good" is not talking about public defense vs private its talking about state vs federal public defense.

Your other links just talks about a survey with no actual numbers. The only number I saw was how long the survey would take.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GMScud;566375]I'm not sure I understand this post. If you're saying I can give more than a few inches, then you're right. I just don't want to. I'm not heartless. I want to help, but not to the extent that I'm on even par with the folks who are getting their tab picked up by Obama care.[/quote]

I'm saying that you don't want to give a few more inches but you are when you pay your taxes and health insurance premium. Your choice is merely a perceived choice. You also think you're at the front of the line [URL="http://www.cms.hhs.gov/medicaideligibility/02_areyoueligible_.asp"]when you are not[/URL]. People who show-up to the emergency room have to wait whether they have insurance or not and your wait time depends on the severity of your ailment. You will also note that most of the cost in uninsured care is in the emergency room care. If it is not an emergency but life threatening if not dealt with (i.e. a diabetic needing insulin) you still pay for it too.

You are just another number who happens to think he is special and fails to realize he is merely pushing the problem back to the emergency room.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=firstdown;566415]Your link "is every bit as good" is not talking about public defense vs private its talking about state vs federal public defense.

Your other links just talks about a survey with no actual numbers. The only number I saw was how long the survey would take.[/quote]

Try harder.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;566425]I'm saying that you don't want to give a few more inches but you are when you pay your taxes and health insurance premium. Your choice is merely a perceived choice. [B]You also think you're at the front of the line [URL="http://www.cms.hhs.gov/medicaideligibility/02_areyoueligible_.asp"]when you are not[/URL]. People who show-up to the emergency room have to wait whether they have insurance or not and your wait time depends on the severity of your ailment. You will also note that most of the cost in uninsured care is in the emergency room care. If it is not an emergency but life threatening if not dealt with (i.e. a diabetic needing insulin) you still pay for it too.[/B]

You are just another number who happens to think he is special and fails to realize he is merely pushing the problem back to the emergency room.[/quote]

When I said, "cry me a river if you have to wait," I wasn't referring to the line at the ER. I was referring to things like surgeries/procedures/doctor appointments. If I'm insured and I break my arm, I certainly don't expect to get seen in the ER faster than some uninsured guy who just got shot or in a bad car accident.

As far as your comment about me thinking I'm special... Well, I've already broken my own Warpath rules enough by posting on this thread. So I'm not even going to go there with you.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;566426]Try harder.[/quote]
All you have to do is read your link. The only place it talks about private vs public (that I found) was in the criticism section and that is filled with "citation needed" because there is nothing to back up what is said in that section. Like facts. Now please explain to us how Obama's plan will not end up like the one in Massachusetts and actually drive up cost?

Re: Obama Care
 

Firstdown: If we gave up at everything anyone had ever failed at, you would have never lived as long as you have already. Previous failures are not proof of future failures.

Please stop using Canada and Mass. as an example of how Universal Healthcare is impossible. And don't ask for proof of how Federal Healthcare will be different. Why don't you prove how it will be the same?

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;566915]Firstdown: If we gave up at everything anyone had ever failed at, you would have never lived as long as you have already. Previous failures are not proof of future failures.

Please stop using Canada and Mass. as an example of how Universal Healthcare is impossible. And don't ask for proof of how Federal Healthcare will be different. Why don't you prove how it will be the same?[/quote]
OK, just look at any large federal program and then you have your answer. SS running out of money, Medicare/Medicade in trouble, how about the bail out of car companies that still went out of business. We could also look at what has happened to the public school system ever sense the federal goverment got involved. How about the bad bill Bush passed on percription drugs which I believe has doubled in cost v/s what they said it would cost. I don't look at this as a rep v/s dem issue I look it as another thing the goverment is going to screw up. You say don't point to Canada but the Dems point to them when talking about cost and care. You say don't look at Mass. system but it has been said their system is close to Obama's plan and it makes perfect sense to see what's happening with their plan. What else do we have to look at when talking about national heath care? Maybe we should all just turn a blind eye and let them do what ever they want. I don't think Universal Health care will fail I just believe it will drive up cost (see the example in Mass) and the quality of care will go down.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;566915]Firstdown: If we gave up at everything anyone had ever failed at, you would have never lived as long as you have already. Previous failures are not proof of future failures.

Please stop using Canada and Mass. as an example of how Universal Healthcare is impossible.[B] And don't ask for proof of how Federal Healthcare will be different. Why don't you prove how it will be the same?[/B][/quote]

So don't
a) cite the current models as examples,
b) ask how they will prevent it from falling into the same traps that the models that are the basis for it fall into,

and do prove that it will be the same as what they are modeling it after.

Somehow your logic in this post baffles me.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;566940]So don't
a) cite the current models as examples,
b) ask how they will prevent it from falling into the same traps that the models that are the basis for it fall into,

and do prove that it will be the same as what they are modeling it after.

Somehow your logic in this post baffles me.[/quote]

The point I was trying to make:

To say something is impossible, and basically shoot down every point of reason, and pretend we shouldn't even attempt something because of the possibility of failure is a lazy attitude, and one that is not conducive to progress.

For the record, I have no position on this matter, and I generally favor smaller government. I'm just sick of the defeatist attitude.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;566961]The point I was trying to make:

[B]To say something is impossible, and basically shoot down every point of reason, and pretend we shouldn't even attempt something because of the possibility of failure is a lazy attitude, and one that is not conducive to progress.[/B]

For the record, I have no position on this matter, and I generally favor smaller government. I'm just sick of the defeatist attitude.[/quote]

I doubt anyone argues it is impossible for the government to implement universal healthcare, only that it is unreasonable to expect government to handle it efficiently. Further, when things have proven track records, and they generally are bad, it is not "lazy" but prudent to examine the failed attempts very closely and determine why they failed.

When solving problems one does not come to valid solutions without a thorough look at why past attempts have failed. If people aren't willing to do that, then it is typically because they don't have good answers to the problems, and so instead they ignore them in the hopes that this time it will be different. There are fundamental problems with putting the responsibility for individual healthcare on the Federal government's plate and no one has really ever explained how a government that is in Trillion Dollar debt, with a SS retirement plan that is close to insolvent, and a medicare/medicaid program that eats up a significant portion of the budget outlays, can afford to take on such a huge financial burden.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;566961]The point I was trying to make:

To say something is impossible, and basically shoot down every point of reason, and pretend we shouldn't even attempt something because of the possibility of failure is a lazy attitude, and one that is not conducive to progress.

For the record, I have no position on this matter, and I generally favor smaller government. I'm just sick of the defeatist attitude.[/quote]

Its not a defeatist attitude the problem is once it is put into place its here to stay no matter how much it cost. Its not like we are building a rocket that we can test over and over again until you have a completed project. This is something that's put into place and never goes away.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;566965]I doubt anyone argues it is impossible for the government to implement universal healthcare, only that it is unreasonable to expect government to handle it efficiently. Further, when things have proven track records, and they generally are bad, it is not "lazy" but prudent to examine the failed attempts very closely and determine why they failed.

When solving problems one does not come to valid solutions without a thorough look at why past attempts have failed. [B]If people aren't willing to do that, then it is typically because they don't have good answers to the problems[/B], and so instead they ignore them in the hopes that this time it will be different. There are fundamental problems with putting the responsibility for individual healthcare on the Federal government's plate and no one has really ever explained how a government that is in Trillion Dollar debt, with a SS retirement plan that is close to insolvent, and a medicare/medicaid program that eats up a significant portion of the budget outlays, can afford to take on such a huge financial burden.[/quote]Good post, well said.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;566965]I doubt anyone argues it is impossible for the government to implement universal healthcare, only that it is unreasonable to expect government to handle it efficiently. Further, when things have proven track records, and they generally are bad, it is not "lazy" but prudent to examine the failed attempts very closely and determine why they failed.

When solving problems one does not come to valid solutions without a thorough look at why past attempts have failed. If people aren't willing to do that, then it is typically because they don't have good answers to the problems, and so instead they ignore them in the hopes that this time it will be different. There are fundamental problems with putting the responsibility for individual healthcare on the Federal government's plate and no one has really ever explained how a government that is in Trillion Dollar debt, with a SS retirement plan that is close to insolvent, and a medicare/medicaid program that eats up a significant portion of the budget outlays, can afford to take on such a huge financial burden.[/quote]

It's not impossible for the government to implement universal healthcare, but it's unreasonable to expect them to do it right? In other words, there is no way they can do it right. That is defeatist.

I'm not against looking at the failures, but when you never *ever* offer any positive ideas, and just keep saying why it won't work, that is defeatist. Also, it's lazy when you offer the reasons for failure "in the effort of prudence", but you never offer any advice about how it could work. In other words, you just want to examine the failures so you can continue to oppose Universal Healthcare. You don't want to examine to failures so you can correct them. That's lazy.

Why don't you come up with some positive ideas? How do you think it's possible for the government to take on such a huge financial burden? What would need to be sacrificed? I suspect your answers would be: not possible and nothing.

Don't try and disguise your defeatist attitude with this crap. You know yourself that you're not interested in finding ways for it to work.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;567094]It's not impossible for the government to implement universal healthcare, but it's unreasonable to expect them to do it right? In other words, there is no way they can do it right. That is defeatist.

I'm not against looking at the failures, but when you never *ever* offer any positive ideas, and just keep saying why it won't work, that is defeatist. Also, it's lazy when you offer the reasons for failure "in the effort of prudence", but you never offer any advice about how it could work. In other words, you just want to examine the failures so you can continue to oppose Universal Healthcare. You don't want to examine to failures so you can correct them. That's lazy.

Why don't you come up with some positive ideas? [B]How do you think it's possible for the government to take on such a huge financial burden?[/B] What would need to be sacrificed? I suspect your answers would be: not possible and nothing.

Don't try and disguise your defeatist attitude with this crap. [B]You know yourself that you're not interested in finding ways for it to work[/B].[/quote]
You are absolutely correct, I do not want to find a way to allow government to intrude and control the most important part of my life. I have in the past posted my thoughts on government, very clearly I believe. I am for a minimal government, one which secures our freedoms through a strong air force/navy and a standby army. Our Defense spending is as unwise as would be universal health care. We need the people of the US to remember that our history was made not by Government providing for our needs, but by individuals and local citizens working through hardship and toiling to bring the prosperity we enjoy. Government should serve to safeguard the basic principles we all hold dear, freedom of the individual, justice that is blind when it comes to race, creed, wealth. I am not a defeatist because I believe that Government has a limited role and a limited place in determining what is and is not appropriate health care spending. I am not defeatist when I look at the history of the Government and know that there are those who want nothing more than the purse strings to control who has access to the premium healthcare and who is shunted through the mass system (if you argue this point, go ask any congressman/woman what their healthcare package consists of). I simply do not want Government to be involved. I think it is a bad idea at its base. and as for being lazy, those who think the government should provide services instead of individuals being required to put in whatever it takes to provide for themselves and their families, that is lazy. I bust my tail, and i know most of us on here do everyday, and i try my best to provide the healthcare that my family needs. Lets all do that, and not look to big brother to handle it for us.

I don't expect that you would agree with these points, but at least recognize that to want a true limited government is neither lazy nor defeatist, in fact if government is limited that is when the opportunity to work hard, and lift this country out of its current debt is the most possible.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;567102]We need the people of the US to remember that our history was made not by Government providing for our needs, but by individuals and local citizens working through hardship and toiling to bring the prosperity we enjoy. Government should serve to safeguard the basic principles we all hold dear, freedom of the individual, justice that is blind when it comes to race, creed, wealth.[/quote]

What a [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Freedom"]f'ing joke[/URL],

[quote]Crawford was commissioned to design the Statue of Freedom in 1854 and executed the plaster model for the statue in his studio in Rome. The statue was originally topped by a liberty cap but Senator and Secretary of War Jefferson Davis (who would later become the President of the Confederacy) was in charge of the construction and refused to allow the statue to wear the hat. He told Crawford to either remove it or he would give the commission to someone else. (Davis knew that in ancient Rome only freed slaves wore these hats and he didn't want to have a freed slave on top of the Capitol Dome.) So the American eagle helmet replaced the hat when the sculpture was made.[/quote]

[quote]While Freedom was being cast at Mills' foundry the foreman in charge of the casting went on strike. Instead of paying him the higher wages he demanded Mills turned the project over to Philip Reid, one of the slaves working at the facility.[/quote]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;567104]What a [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Freedom"]f'ing joke[/URL],[/quote]

And how did things work out for Jefferson Davis and the confederacy? What's the "f'ing joke?"

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GMScud;567108]And how did things work out for Jefferson Davis and the confederacy? What's the "f'ing joke?"[/quote]


The f'king joke is that America's history began with tragedy wherein men enslaved men while preaching freedom. One must uncomfortably laugh when they hear such talks as "America...history...[blah blah]..freedom."

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;567109]The f'king joke is that America's history began with tragedy wherein men enslaved men while preaching freedom. One must uncomfortably laugh when they hear such talks as "America...history...[blah blah]..freedom."[/quote]

I get it. There's certainly some hypocrisy in our history and how we preach things these days (it makes me physically cringe to say that).

I find a bit of irony in the fact that you seem rather anti-American History (at least the way it's talked about and taught), yet you favor the gigantic government side of the aisle.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;567109]The f'king joke is that America's history began with tragedy wherein men enslaved men while preaching freedom. One must uncomfortably laugh when they hear such talks as "America...history...[blah blah]..freedom."[/quote]

Or one can recognize that it was the ideals of freedom which led to the day when every United States child can believe that he/she can hold the highest elected office, not because of their status or their wealth, but because they live in a land that offers individuals the ability to go where the parents did not. One must uncomfortably cry when the history of the United States is so blatantly perverted to promote the Federal takeover of the healthcare that it's supporters harken back the days of slavery, something long since abolished, denying the very ideals of freedom, and individual responsibility that great men such as Martin Luther King Jr - [URL="http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkihaveadream.htm"]I have a dream[/URL] ... where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. , and John F Kennedy - Ask NOT what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country(don't hear many UHC supporters touting that line!) in US history proclaimed.

It is f'king laughable that you Saden, who cheer so loudly for Obama, demean the ideals of freedom that led us to this momentous period where he has risen to the presidency.

[url=http://www.famousquotes.me.uk/speeches/John_F_Kennedy/5.htm]The Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For You speech by John F. Kennedy[/url]
[quote=JFK speech]And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe - [B]the belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state,[/B] but from the hand of God.
...

To those peoples in the huts and villages across the globe struggling to break the bonds of mass misery, we pledge our best efforts [B]to help them help themselves[/B], for whatever period is required
...
And so, my fellow Americans: [B]ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country[/B].

My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.
[/quote]

Re: Obama Care
 

also let us remember that slavery was a worldwide tragedy and scourge. Romans had slaves during their empire.
[URL="http://web.cocc.edu/cagatucci/classes/hum211/timelines/htimeline3.htm"]Europe took it up before the United States even existed[/URL]
[quote]1562 Britain begins its slave trade in Africa. Slave Trade increases significantly with development of plantation colonies of the Americas, especially in Brazil. Other countries involved in the European slave trade included Spain (from 1479); North America (from 1619); Holland (from 1625); France (from 1642); Sweden (from 1647); and Denmark (from 1697).[/quote]
It was indeed [URL="http://innercity.org/holt/slavechron.html"]worldwide[/URL]:
[IMG]http://innercity.org/holt/diasporo.jpg[/IMG]

This was a tragic time in world history and especially the history of the United States, and I don't know one person that I deal with who thinks otherwise.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;567111][B]Or one can recognize that it was the ideals of freedom which led to the day when every United States child can believe that he/she can hold the highest elected office, not because of their status or their wealth, but because they live in a land that offers individuals the ability to go where the parents did not.[/B] One must uncomfortably cry when the history of the United States is so blatantly perverted to promote the Federal takeover of the healthcare that it's supporters harken back the days of slavery, something long since abolished, denying the very ideals of freedom, and individual responsibility that great men such as Martin Luther King Jr - [URL="http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkihaveadream.htm"]I have a dream[/URL] ... where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. , and John F Kennedy - Ask NOT what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country(don't hear many UHC supporters touting that line!) in US history proclaimed.

It is f'king laughable that you Saden, who cheer so loudly for Obama, demean the ideals of freedom that led us to this momentous period where he has risen to the presidency.

[URL="http://www.famousquotes.me.uk/speeches/John_F_Kennedy/5.htm"]The Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For You speech by John F. Kennedy[/URL][/quote]

One must wonder if [URL="http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Pool-Boots-Kids-Who-Might-Change-the-Complexion.html"]all is well in America[/URL] in light of Obama's election. I say no and that we still have a long way to go.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;567112]also let us remember that slavery was a worldwide tragedy and scourge. Romans had slaves during their empire.
[URL="http://web.cocc.edu/cagatucci/classes/hum211/timelines/htimeline3.htm"]Europe took it up before the United States even existed[/URL]

It was indeed [URL="http://innercity.org/holt/slavechron.html"]worldwide[/URL]:
[IMG]http://innercity.org/holt/diasporo.jpg[/IMG]

This was a tragic time in world history and especially the history of the United States, and I don't know one person that I deal with who thinks otherwise.[/quote]

How does slavery being a world wide practice absolve America of its sins? Don't you realize that when you speak of the founding of this country and the issue of freedom you're are in essence only speaking of freedom for Caucasians? You are making the founding of America something it is not, and that something is inclusive.

That's all I'm trying to say. It's fair assessment, it's an accurate assessment, and it's not meant to demean America; it is simply the truth.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GMScud;567110]I get it. There's certainly some hypocrisy in our history and how we preach things these days (it makes me physically cringe to say that).

I find a bit of irony in the fact that you seem rather anti-American History (at least the way it's talked about and taught), yet you favor the gigantic government side of the aisle.[/quote]

Don't label me. I believe there is more to a government than simply providing a defense department. Providing social services is in the mandate of a government and "rising tides lift all boats" idiom is not limited in scope to to the realm of economics. Because I hold these view it doesn't mean I enjoy seeing my money wasted.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;567114]How does slavery being a world wide practice absolve America of its sins? Don't you realize that when you speak of the founding of this country and the issue of freedom you're are in essence only speaking of freedom for Caucasians? You are making the founding of America something it is not, and that something is inclusive.

That's all I'm trying to say. It's fair assessment, it's an accurate assessment, and it's not meant to demean America; it is simply the truth.[/quote]

I did not say it absolved the US. I specifically said it was tragic ESPECIALLY in the US, because it was in direct opposition to the ideals that were stated in our founding documents. But, with respect to freedom, we have continued to march towards our ideals, not back into the erroneous ways of slavery. But with respect to individual responsibility that goes hand in hand with freedom and liberty, IMO -we are moving back towards the type of Government that enslaves the populace, not the type which empowers individuals.

Further the ideals, while not inclusively practiced at our founding(and I would argue that that was not purely US, but world wide beliefs of the time) it has broadened and grown in a short time (historically speaking) to where it is today.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;567113]One must wonder if [URL="http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Pool-Boots-Kids-Who-Might-Change-the-Complexion.html"]all is well in America[/URL] in light of Obama's election. I say no and that we still have a long way to go.[/quote]
[url=http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Swim-Club-Members-Nothing-to-Do-With-Race.html]Swim Club Members: "Nothing to Do With Race" | NBC Philadelphia[/url]
[quote=the other side of the story] [QUOTE=club statement] The Valley Club is deeply troubled by the recent allegations of racism, which are completely untrue.

We had originally agreed to invite the camps to use our facility, [B]knowing full well that the children from the camps were from multi-ethnic backgrounds. Unfortunately, we quickly learned that we underestimated the capacity of our facilities [/B]and realized that we could not accommodate the number of children from these camps. All funds were returned to the camps and we will re-evaluate the issue at a later date to determine whether it can be feasible in the future.

Our Valley Club deplores discrimination in any form, as is evidenced by our multi-ethnic and diverse membership. Whatever comments may or may not have been made by an individual member is an opinion not shared by The Valley Club Board.[/quote]

Daniel Veres, a 16-year old Hispanic teen who is also a member, says the entire situation is just a misunderstanding. "We're not judgmental, we're just friendly," Veres said of the mostly white club.

For the children involved, the entire situation has left them simply sad and confused.

"I heard one lady saying 'Why's there so many black kids here' cause she said she was afraid that we might do something to her child," recalled camper Dymire Baylor. "How could they say that?"

If given the chance, the campers say they wouldn't step foot in the swim club, but they will be able to swim once again this summer. Girard College, a private Philadelphia boarding school for children who live in low-income and single parent homes, stepped in and offered their pool to Creative Steps.

"We had to help," said Girard College director of Admissions Tamara Leclair. "Every child deserves an incredible summer camp experience."[/QUOTE]

So the kids were given a refund and a different pool stepped up and offered them a place to swim. This is a FAR cry from being abused and sold as slaves or even the seperate but equal fallacy. It sounds like the club royally screwed up and that some, maybe most, members there have personal hangups, but don't make this into some "The US is still racist" jargon.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;567120][URL="http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Swim-Club-Members-Nothing-to-Do-With-Race.html"]Swim Club Members: "Nothing to Do With Race" | NBC Philadelphia[/URL]


So the kids were given a refund and a different pool stepped up and offered them a place to swim. This is a FAR cry from being abused and sold as slaves or even the seperate but equal fallacy. It sounds like the club royally screwed up and that some, maybe most, members there have personal hangups, but don't make this into some "The US is still racist" jargon.[/quote]


If you're talking about equality and freedom their refusal was a big TT FAIL. It doesn't really matter that they were able to get a different pool to host the kids. The president of the club said:

[quote]"There was concern that a lot of kids would change the complexion … and the atmosphere of the club," [URL="http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/topics?topic=John+Duesler"]John Duesler[/URL], President of The Valley Swim Club said in a statement.[/quote]

It doesn't get clearer than that and the fact that they said they couldn't host 65 kids with 8 supervisors is total bs once you see at [URL="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=22+Tomlinson+Rd,+Huntingdon+Vly,+PA%E2%80%8E&sll=40.120694,-75.039566&sspn=0.002418,0.002795&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=17&iwloc=A"]the size of the club[/URL]. [URL="http://web.archive.org/web/20070814083246/http://www.thevalleyclub.com/index.html"]This is the club[/URL].

[IMG]http://web.archive.org/web/20070814083246/http://www.thevalleyclub.com/graphics/valley_club_cover.jpg[/IMG]


It doesn't take a genius to see this for what it is.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;567165]If you're talking about equality and freedom their refusal was a big TT FAIL. [/quote]

I wholeheartedly agree with this part.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;567165]One must wonder if all is well in America in light of Obama's election. I say no and that we still have a long way to go. [/quote]

[quote=saden1;567165]If you're talking about equality and freedom their refusal was a big TT FAIL. [/quote]

And so the unmitigated failure by one elitist club, that has been roundly condemned by every available outlet (show me one item saying that there exclusion of the kids was a good or even acceptable thing), [I]is proof[/I] that the US [I]as a nation[/I] has "a long way to go" towards racial tolerance and equality.

Talk about cherry picking your facts.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;567094]It's not impossible for the government to implement universal healthcare, but it's unreasonable to expect them to do it right? In other words, there is no way they can do it right. That is defeatist.

I'm not against looking at the failures, but when you never *ever* offer any positive ideas, and just keep saying why it won't work, that is defeatist. Also, it's lazy when you offer the reasons for failure "in the effort of prudence", but you never offer any advice about how it could work. In other words, you just want to examine the failures so you can continue to oppose Universal Healthcare. You don't want to examine to failures so you can correct them. That's lazy.

Why don't you come up with some positive ideas? How do you think it's possible for the government to take on such a huge financial burden? What would need to be sacrificed? I suspect your answers would be: What would need to be sacrificed?not possible and nothing.

Don't try and disguise your defeatist attitude with this crap. You know yourself that you're not interested in finding ways for it to work.[/quote]

Why don't you come up with some positive ideas?
I just don't see any positives in this idea.

How do you think it's possible for the government to take on such a huge financial burden? To raise taxes over and over again to pay for a program that will run way over budget.

What would need to be sacrificed?
Higher cost and taxes.

not possible and nothing.
I don't think anyone here who is against the plan thinks its not possible its just that we feel its a bad idea.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;567113]One must wonder if [URL="http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Pool-Boots-Kids-Who-Might-Change-the-Complexion.html"]all is well in America[/URL] in light of Obama's election. I say no and that we still have a long way to go.[/quote]
Your right and it goes both ways.
[url=http://www.ohio.com/news/50172282.html]Ohio.com - Akron police investigate teen mob attack on family[/url]

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;567180]And so the unmitigated failure by one elitist club, that has been roundly condemned by every available outlet (show me one item saying that there exclusion of the kids was a good or even acceptable thing), [I]is proof[/I] that the US [I]as a nation[/I] has "a long way to go" towards racial tolerance and equality.

Talk about cherry picking your facts.[/quote]


I don't have to cherry pick, it happened recently, it happened to kids, it has happened before and it happened in America. It's a perfect example if you ask me, do you want another example that demonstrates the road we must still travel? Or perhaps you're satisfied with "less frequency" of [URL="http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2007/table_01.htm"]cases of racism[/URL] (if only they included the non-direct incidents).

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;567192]I don't have to cherry pick, it happened recently, it happened to kids, it has happened before and it happened in America. It's a perfect example if you ask me, do you want another example that demonstrates the road we must still travel? Or perhaps you're satisfied with "less frequency" of [URL="http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2007/table_01.htm"]cases of racism[/URL] (if only they included the non-direct incidents).[/quote]

Choosing one recent incident out of the millions of interactions that occur each day is cherry picking. I can cherry pick similar examples to show how far we have come in a very short time. [url=http://dailynightly.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/07/03/1985817.aspx]A new day in Mississippi - The Daily Nightly - msnbc.com[/url]

Do racists still exist in America, absolutely. Are you seriously trying to tell me that racism is as prevalent as it was even one generation ago? Are you seriously trying to assert that large strides haven't been made when, during the course of my lifetime, it has gone from being legally acceptable to discriminate on the basis of race to being prohibited (and in some cases criminal)? Further, not only is it illegal, overt racism is condemned by the vast majority of Americans - as evidenced by the media coverage of this particular event. When racists are exposed, their actions are condemned. This is a far cry from even 30 years ago.

Using the stats given by you and raise them by a factor of 100 to relate unreported incidents of racial discrimination, we are still left with less than a a million "incidents" and "offenses" of racial bias in a population of over 306 million. Even if it we raise them by a factor of 1000, it still shows an effect on less than 2.8% of the population. Is it wrong for even one person to be the victim of racial prejudice? absolutely. Does the fact that it occurs mean we have "a long way to go", no.

We could debate how far we've come and how far we have to go on that particular topic all day but I don't think this is the thread for that.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;567202]Choosing one recent incident out of the millions of interactions that occur each day is cherry picking. I can cherry pick similar examples to show how far we have come in a very short time. [URL="http://dailynightly.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/07/03/1985817.aspx"]A new day in Mississippi - The Daily Nightly - msnbc.com[/URL]

Do racists still exist in America, absolutely. Are you seriously trying to tell me that racism is as prevalent as it was even one generation ago? Are you seriously trying to assert that large strides haven't been made when, during the course of my lifetime, it has gone from being legally acceptable to discriminate on the basis of race to being prohibited (and in some cases criminal)? Further, not only is it illegal, overt racism is condemned by the vast majority of Americans - as evidenced by the media coverage of this particular event. When racists are exposed, their actions are condemned. This is a far cry from even 30 years ago.

Using the stats given by you and raise them by a factor of 100 to relate unreported incidents of racial discrimination, we are still left with less than a a million "incidents" and "offenses" of racial bias in a population of over 306 million. Even if it we raise them by a factor of 1000, it still shows an effect on less than 2.8% of the population. Is it wrong for even one person to be the victim of racial prejudice? absolutely. Does the fact that it occurs mean we have "a long way to go", no.

We could debate how far we've come and how far we have to go on that particular topic all day but I don't think this is the thread for that.[/quote]

Saying "we still have a long way to go" is fair and accurate. I don't know why saying so is problematic for you and I am not even sure what your exception is.

All is better than it use to be is not the same as all is well.

Re: Obama Care
 

So let me get this right here are some quotes:
[quote]"This has nothing to do with race," member Lori Slowinski said. "I paid my money for a [b]private[/b] swim club…if they're gonna have it out to camps, then I want my money back."

Jim Flynn went right to the club president after the kids took the plunge into the 110,000 gallon pool. "I was the first person to talk to the president, because the pool was overcrowded," said Flynn. "As members we have nothing to hide. There's good people here."[/quote]

So it's a PRIVATE club, yes? The PRIVATE club knew that club coming in was ethnically diverse, yes? But they still were going to allow them in, yes? The link shows this quote as well:
[quote]Our Valley Club deplores discrimination in any form, as is evidenced by our multi-ethnic and diverse membership. Whatever comments may or may not have been made by an individual member is an opinion not shared by The Valley Club Board. [/quote]
So it's not condoning some comments made by parents (which seems like only 1 was of the racist nature according to the link, but I'm sure there could be more)
Even a 16 year old [b]minority MEMBER[/b] had this to say: [quote]Daniel Veres, a 16-year old Hispanic teen who is also a member, says the entire situation is just a misunderstanding. "We're not judgmental, we're just friendly,"[/quote]
So do I blame parents for getting upset that nonmembers crowded their pool? Absolutely not. If you pay good money to belong to an (what they deem to be an) exclusive club thinking it was a part of a MEMBERSHIP, why should they not be upset when any group, no matter what the racial background, be brought in? Keep in mind the group brought in wasn't [b]all[/b] black either.
Did some parents get racist, I don't know for sure, but I would certainly bet yes. Does this mean the Valley Swim Club deserves all this crap? ABSOLUTELY NOT! They tried to help out these kids, and when it realized what a problem their decision made, they corrected it. I do not believe it was racially driven as much as it was member driven. It was an unfortunate incident. But to say this is evidence of racism in america, really...this is your arguement? If it is, I am quite happy with the road abolishing racism has taken us. This seems more of something just to complain about than actual pure racism. The club itself is not 100% white, just because it is mainly white, doesn't make it purely white. There is a huge difference. If you can name me a black person that was turned away for MEMBERSHIP, then I will call this club racist. Until then, this is nothing more than a mix up.
It's amazing how we are soooo quick to play the racism card in every situation when it involves african americans. It doesn't matter that the group had other ethnic backgrounds. So what do those kids say? (from a white kid, or latino kid in the camp) "Mom, all these kids care about is the black kids going to swim...so not only am I not allowed to swim, I'm now being pushed aside of the camp I belong to...where do I fit in?"
I will point out something, this comes from the front page of the most racist orginization on the planet...the NAACP (
[quote]The NAACP deplores the recent incident of racial discrimination at the Valley Swim Club in Philadelphia, in which a group of black day-camp children were told to leave a pool because they “changed the complexion and atmosphere” of the facility.

Is this the year 2009, or 1959?

This egregious episode casts us back in time, to the long, shameful era of Jim Crow segregation in America.[/quote]

Does this FUEL the fire, or tell a story? It takes 1 blip from the comments and runs with it while there is a whole story to tell. This my friends is racist. It fuels racism in america. Instead of trying to educate of what actually happened, it only posts what it deemed relevant pointing out the incident what it believes to be racist.
Don't think the NAACP is racist? It's in their name. National Association for the [b]ADVANCEMENT[/b] of [/b]Colored People[/b]. Not equality of colored people (which I would understand), not equality for all either. They don't even care about the equality of other "colored" people such as Latino's, or middle eastern people, or indian. No one finds that odd? Of course not, because we have been conditioned that racism is PURELY white on black. It couldn't possibly exist another way. Racism is racism. It's disgusting in every form. Latino to blacks, blacks to whites, indians to europeans...it's all the same. Racism is racism, and all of it needs to go away.
Please don't misconstrue what I am saying, I am not saying some of those parents that were making racial remarks are right, what I am saying is, the club should not be punished for the idiocracy of a few. And YES, MEMBERS should have the right to be picky about the public allowed in their pool no matter the ethnicity. If this was a group of predominantly white kids, and they were booted out, this wouldn't even make ANY type of news. Possibly wouldn't even make the news if they were mainly Latinos. Shame on us for making this such a national deal. That only fuels racism, not abolishes it.

Re: Obama Care
 

I have seen many a cluster-f*ck of a post in this forum but ^^^ takes the cake. Absolute trash.

Re: Obama Care
 

Are the people at that club complaining racist? Probably. Maybe some did have a concern with the crowding issue but if this was a bunch of white kids I'm not so sure they would have raised any concerns. This is also a good time for them to teach those kids that in life there will be people like this and how to deal with these issues. They are also better off spending their money at a pool that will treat them the way they should be treated.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;567219]I have seen many a cluster-f*ck of a post in this forum but ^^^ takes the cake. Absolute trash.[/quote]

And yet another closed minded individual speaks. Bravo.
Nice way to debate where I was wrong. Not all of us need to share your skewed opinion.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=jsarno;567225]And yet another closed minded individual speaks. Bravo.
Nice way to debate where I was wrong. Not all of us need to share your skewed opinion.[/quote]


Worst Post Ever! Ever! It doesn't deserve to be debated!

I think I'm going to put a link to it on my message wall.

Re: Obama Care
 

[quote=saden1;567227]Worst Post Ever! Ever! It doesn't deserve to be debated!

I think I'm going to put a link to it on my message wall.[/quote]

LOL...great idea.