Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;640195]

As to Cooley being a "team leader," I think you overvalue him a bit there. We, as fans, like Cooley because he makes plays and he's funny. We're amused by the short shorts, crazy hair, his blog entries, and general antics... much the same way we were amused by Portis' alter-egos a couple of years ago. He's a "fan favorite." He's popular in the lockerroom. But don't confuse "popular" and "well-liked" with "Leader." If Cooley were really a "leader," he probably would have been voted a team captain for the offense at the beginning of the season. Instead, Campbell and Samuels were the captains for the offense. If the offense has a leader now, its Jason Campbell. As fans, we don't "identify" with him as much, because he seems to be a fairly private person. but if you pay attention when other players talk, Campbell's THE leader. Sellers is a leader. Fletcher is a leader. Cartwright is a leader... but not Cooley. Sorry.[/quote]

You're right. Well said.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;640214]Shockey was not getting along in NY, and wanted out. Gonzalez is good, but also OLD. Again, if Cooley wanted out, or was causing problems, then yes a 2nd is fair, but he is young, an established probowler who has significant ties to the community and team, brings in a ton of merchandising revenue(yes that should affect the value we get for him, because he will bring that to the new team as well) and is a very good locker room presence. Shockey and Gonzalez didn't meet that criteria, and Gonzalez was franchised last year I believe - I could be wrong, but not this year. It is crazy to think a stand alone 2nd round pick is a fair market value for Cooley.[/quote]

It all depends on what team we trade him to. 1st and a 3rd or 2nd and a whatever are really too vague of terms. For example, I think Cooley is easily worth a the 31st overall pick and the 31st pick in the 3rd round. But the 5th pick in the first round and 5th in the 3rd? Hardly.

But to keep things relatively simple, lets split it up into 3 categories:

1. Receiving Team has a top 10 Pick: We get a 2, a 4 and a 6.
2. Receiving Team has a Round 1 Pick from 11 to 25: We get a 2 and a 3.
3. Receiving Team has a Round 1 Pick from 26-32: We get a 1 and a 3.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;640214]Shockey was not getting along in NY, and wanted out. Gonzalez is good, but also OLD. Again, if Cooley wanted out, or was causing problems, then yes a 2nd is fair, but he is young, an established probowler who has significant ties to the community and team, brings in a ton of merchandising revenue(yes that should affect the value we get for him, because he will bring that to the new team as well) and is a very good locker room presence. Shockey and Gonzalez didn't meet that criteria, and Gonzalez was franchised last year I believe - I could be wrong, but not this year. It is crazy to think a stand alone 2nd round pick is a fair market value for Cooley.[/quote]

Well said. I think every player in his prime that got traded, did not want to be with their current team (i.e. Shockey, Winslow Jr., Braylon Edwards, Gonzalez...well he wasn't in his prime but still a damn good TE). Hell, even trading Richard Seymour backfired on Darth Hoody, because his defense sucks now.

You don't build a good franchise by JUST acquiring a ton of draft picks. You have to be smart about using your picks and the players that you have. Right now the Redskins could be in a good positions for two/three years down the road to trade Cooley if he wants out or if his production is not equal the $$ they are paying him. Right now the Redskins need to figure out a good way to use their two talented tight ends.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

Unless Davis can truly show he is our tight end of the future and can be reliable we need to keep Cooley.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=TheSmurfs22;640362]Unless [B]Davis can truly show he is our tight end of the future[/B] and can be reliable we need to keep Cooley.[/quote]

i think he is... and so is cooley he is only 27!!

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=Landry44;640165]Shockey and Gonzalez went for a second round picks and both are great TEs. Why wouldn't we trade Cooley for a second round pick? I highly doubt anyone would give up a first rounder for a TE. I think a second round pick would be fair.[/quote]

This is a good question, and would have led to a not-ridiculous discussion. Arguments could be made both for and against trading him for a second, and it's likely we could fetch that price. Reading this thread it's clear that Skins fans have a delusional view of Cooley's value. Gates, Daniels, and Whitten wouldn't fetch nearly this price, and Cooley is probably not as good as any of those players.

To put some perspective on it, the Bills didn't even get a first and third for Jason Peters, a stud LT in his prime. As good as Cooley is, he's just a probowl TE. He's not the greatest TE of all time and he's not a stud LT. The only possible thing dumber than someone offering us this deal would be us not taking it.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=TheSmurfs22;640362]Unless Davis can truly show he is our tight end of the future and can be reliable we need to keep Cooley.[/quote]

What does he need to do exactly? He is physically more talented. It seems pretty safe to say that he is more effective in the Red Zone too.

This is going to be a heated position argument but knowing the Redskins,contract size trumps all when it comes to playing time.

The good thing in this case is that it doesn't hurt the team to start Cooley over Davis.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=djnemo65;640369]This is a good question, and would have led to a not-ridiculous discussion. Arguments could be made both for and against trading him for a second, and it's likely we could fetch that price. [B] Reading this thread it's clear that Skins fans have a delusional view of Cooley's value.[/B] Gates, Daniels, and Whitten wouldn't fetch nearly this price, and Cooley is probably not as good as any of those players.

To put some perspective on it, the Bills didn't even get a first and third for Jason Peters, a stud LT in his prime. As good as Cooley is, he's [B]just a probowl TE[/B]. He's not the greatest TE of all time and he's not a stud LT. The only possible thing dumber than someone offering us this deal would be us not taking it.[/quote]

cooley's value goes beyond the feild he is right now the heart and sould of this organization, he is a fan favorite no doubt, but he is our main offensive weapon, he just isn't playing right now.

and you do realize only two guys make it to the pro bowl for te so to say he is [B]"just a pro bowler" [/B]is kind of ridiculious

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=mlmdub130;640372]cooley's value goes beyond the feild he is right now the heart and sould of this organization, he is a fan favorite no doubt, but he is our main offensive weapon, he just isn't playing right now.

and you do realize only two guys make it to the pro bowl for te so to say he is [B]"just a pro bowler" [/B]is kind of ridiculious[/quote]


Portis says Rock is the heart and soul and the offense has gotten better since Cooley got injured.

I definitely agree that a lot of people are significantly overvaluing him. He is a great player but may not even be the best tight end on the team.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

no, we should definitely think about splitting davis out like IND does dallas clark and still keep cooley at TE and as well run twin tights. davis is a playmaker and we need playmakers and coooooooley is just as good. we need to start keeping the playmakers on the field like moss thomas coooooley (when healthy) and davis at all times

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;640375]Portis says Rock is the heart and soul and the offense has gotten better since Cooley got injured.

I definitely agree that a lot of people are significantly overvaluing him. He is a great player but may not even be the best tight end on the team.[/quote]

i'm not taking anythign away from davis he has been fantastic, but do you seriously think cooley couldn't be out there doing the same thing right now, he has his whole career.

again i'm not trying to take anything away from davis he is amazing all i am saying is so is cooley and some people are quick to forget what cooley has done, i'm not one of them and i can't wait to see cooley and davis tear shit up next year on the same field

if we trade cooley away for [B][U]a chance[/U][/B] to pick up some one who [B][U]might be[/U][/B] a benifit to this team let alone a player of pro bowl caliber i think it would be a joke and an example of how f-ed our front office is

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=mlmdub130;640372]cooley's value goes beyond the feild he is right now the heart and sould of this organization, he is a fan favorite no doubt, but he is our main offensive weapon, he just isn't playing right now.

and you do realize only two guys make it to the pro bowl for te so to say he is [B]"just a pro bowler" [/B]is kind of ridiculious[/quote]

I'm not saying it's a cause and effect thing because I love Cooley but when he was our main offensive weapon our offense was just offensive, now the offense is becoming a weapon.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=saden1;639881]No dice for anything less than 1'st round or second and third rounder. Honestly though why would anyone in their right mind want to trade him? If nothing else this season has shown it's worth having two quality TE on your team. I love Yoder but he isn't going to make the big catches down the field and YACs like Davis is now. Great TE aren't a dime a dozen folks and 2 is better than one.[/quote]

I would hate to see him traded, but the only guy who would give up 1 and 3 for a TE, no matter how many Pro Bowls, receptions, and funny blogs, already has a job...with the Redskins.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;640380]I'm not saying it's a cause and effect thing because I love Cooley but when he was our main offensive weapon our offense was just offensive, now the offense is becoming a weapon.[/quote]

i agree but do you not think cooley would benifit from the new play calling?

i just hate how everyone sees davis have 4/5 good games and next thing you hear is trade cooley, and the same people say we need to build a team through the draft and stay young. we drafted him, and he is young wtf?

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;640380]I'm not saying it's a cause and effect thing because I love Cooley but when he was our main offensive weapon our offense was just offensive, now the offense is becoming a weapon.[/quote]


I agree. It seems like Davis is better at finishing drives.

My eye analysis (which probably isn't worth as much as the beer that I drink during the game) is that Davis creates more space than Cooley does. Cooley has the edge on breaking tackles but I think Davis is definitely faster. I think that both have great hands.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=mlmdub130;640372]cooley's value goes beyond the feild he is right now the heart and sould of this organization, he is a fan favorite no doubt, but he is our main offensive weapon, he just isn't playing right now.

[B]and you do realize only two guys make it to the pro bowl for te so to say he is [/B][B]"just a pro bowler" [/B]is kind of ridiculious[/quote]

Last year it was five people, but the point is that none of them would ever be traded for a first and third round pick. Show me some precedent to prove otherwise but absent that you're unlikely to convince me that this is a realistic trade scenario.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

In 7 games played, Cooley had 29 receptions for 332 yards and 2 TD's, in 13 games Davis has 35 receptions for 369 yards and 5 TD's. Davis first good game was the against Philly in Washington when Cooley got hurt. He actually started getting consistently better 3 weeks ago, against Philly again, then NO and Oakland. Isn't that the time our OL started playing better? What makes you guys think that Cooley couldn't have better numbers if he didn't get hurt? Bottom line it would be crazy to trade Cooley or Davis. How about Andre Carter, he's got high value? He's having a pro-bowl season and will be 31 in May, why not trade him now that we got Jarmon. If we draft a LB, Wilson could be moved to DE with Orakpo.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=djnemo65;640389][B]Last year it was five people[/B], but the point is that none of them would ever be traded for a first and third round pick. Show me some precedent to prove otherwise but absent that you're unlikely to convince me that this is a realistic trade scenario.[/quote]

two from the nfc, thats what i was refering to, and don't get me wrong if someone was retarded enough to offer us a first and a third we would be idiots not to take it but realistically with him coming off an injury the best we could hope for is mid 3rd round for him(at best) and that isn't worth it.

my arguement is based off of what kinda of deal we could realistically get and imo those deals aren't worth taking

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

Looking back now, I'm thinking I'm starting to understand why the Redskins said no when the Broncos asked for Davis in any Cutler trade

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;640390]In 7 games played, Cooley had 29 receptions for 332 yards and 2 TD's, in 13 games Davis has 35 receptions for 369 yards and 5 TD's. Davis first good game was the against Philly in Washington when Cooley got hurt. He actually started getting consistently better 3 weeks ago, against Philly again, then NO and Oakland. Isn't that the time our OL started playing better? What makes you guys think that Cooley couldn't have better numbers if he didn't get hurt? Bottom line it would be crazy to trade Cooley or Davis. How about Andre Carter, he's got high value? He's having a pro-bowl season and will be 31 in May, why not trade him now that we got Jarmon. If we draft a LB, Wilson could be moved to DE with Orakpo.[/quote]


See this argument confuses me. Take Davis' numbers from when Cooley got hurt (overlap) and compare. Because I think it makes sense to compare numbers when they were both starting. Looking at that, they are negligable. I think what it proves is that both are starting quality tight ends. In other words, you could trade one of these guys and there isn't much of a dropoff.

Now trading Carter is the same as trading Landry if you ask me. You trade Carter, you have a big hole. Sure you could stick Rak in there but we need him at linebacker right now. Yes we have Jarmon but he has a two year injury to come back from. So in my opinion trading Carter makes the team worse. Just like trading Landry creates a hole and makes the team worse.

I think the basic idea in making a trade is to get something that improves your team and doesn't leave you with a bigger hole than you started with.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;640394]See this argument confuses me. Take Davis' numbers from when Cooley got hurt (overlap) and compare. Because I think it makes sense to compare numbers when they were both starting. Looking at that, they are negligable. I think what it proves is that both are starting quality tight ends. In other words, you could trade one of these guys and there isn't much of a dropoff.

Now trading Carter is the same as trading Landry if you ask me. You trade Carter, you have a big hole. Sure you could stick Rak in there but we need him at linebacker right now. Yes we have Jarmon but he has a two year injury to come back from. So in my opinion trading Carter makes the team worse. Just like trading Landry creates a hole and makes the team worse.

I think the basic idea in making a trade is to get something that improves your team and doesn't leave you with a bigger hole than you started with.[/quote]

You fill the holes with draft picks acquired, Lorenzo Alexander can play DE, give Rob Jackson a chance. I would definitely resign Golston and possibly Montgomery.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;640394]See this argument confuses me. Take Davis' numbers from when Cooley got hurt (overlap) and compare. Because I think it makes sense to compare numbers when they were both starting. Looking at that, they are negligable. [B]I think what it proves is that both are starting quality tight ends[/B]. In other words, you could trade one of these guys and there isn't much of a dropoff.


I think the basic idea in making a trade is to get something that improves your team and [B]doesn't leave you with a bigger hole than you started with[/B].[/quote]


exactly why not have two starting te's no one will know who to cover in a double te set

so we ship off cooley what happens when davis goes down we put in yoder?

everyone keeps saying the word depth, does anyone know what that means????

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;640395]You fill the holes with draft picks acquired, Lorenzo Alexander can play DE, give Rob Jackson a chance. I would definitely resign Golston and possibly Montgomery.[/quote]


But we have other holes to fill (o-line, possibly corner, LB). If you trade a player and create a hole and then use the pick you traded for to fill the hole, I don't see how you are ahead.

It doesn't seem that these talent evaluators can pick a guy outside of the first round who will start immediately. (Rocky, Devin, Fred, Malcolm, Tryon etc) so I can't count on them picking a starter with a 2nd or 3rd round pick.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=mlmdub130;640396]exactly why not have two starting te's no one will know who to cover in a double te set

so we ship off cooley what happens when davis goes down we put in yoder?

everyone keeps saying the word depth, does anyone know what that means????[/quote]

Does anyone run an offense with two productive tight ends? I think that is asking a lot from this offense. We can barely have two productive pass catchers in general on Sundays.

I understand the depth argument. I think the general view is that if you can get a starting o-lineman along with another productive guy by trading one of these tight ends, is it worth it. I would say yes but there are a lot of variables.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;640398]But we have other holes to fill (o-line, possibly corner, LB). If you trade a player and create a hole and then use the pick you traded for to fill the hole, I don't see how you are ahead.

It doesn't seem that these talent evaluators can pick a guy outside of the first round who will start immediately. (Rocky, Devin, Fred, Malcolm, Tryon etc) so I can't count on them picking a starter with a 2nd or 3rd round pick.[/quote]

My point is you can probably get a 2nd rounder for Carter or a 3rd and something else. Carter is no spring chicken and aren't most people saying his stats are a product of Haynesworth? Trade him while he's got value, I think Rob Jackson could be productive if given the chance. The main holes this team has are OL,RB,LB,QB.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;640401]My point is you can probably get a 2nd rounder for Carter or a 3rd and something else. Carter is no spring chicken and aren't most people saying his stats are a product of Haynesworth? Trade him while he's got value, I think Rob Jackson could be productive if given the chance. The main holes this team has are OL,RB,LB,QB.[/quote]

If we could get a 2nd or 3rd for Carter, I would say do it.

I think that is a little unrealistic, though.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

How in the hell is Carter a product of Haynesworth when Haynesworth has been injured so much. I think the Carter is just having a good season.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;640400]Does anyone run an offense with two productive tight ends? I think that is asking a lot from this offense. We can barely have two productive pass catchers in general on Sundays.

I understand the depth argument. [B]I think the general view is that if you can get a starting o-lineman along with another productive guy by trading one of these tight ends, is it worth it. I would say yes but there are a lot of variables[/B].[/quote]

again for a tight end coming off season ending surgery and injury we would at best get a 3rd rounder

you are saying you would take chad fucking rinehart for cooley, in my book thats no dice

and again with the no one runs a two te o, maybe because they don't have two amazing young te's. everyone says it won't work i'm still waiting to hear a real reason why not

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;640403]If we could get a 2nd or 3rd for Carter, I would say do it.

I think that is a little unrealistic, though.[/quote]

very unrealistic, we might be able to get an undrafted free agent for carter :)

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

I think that we could get a 4th, maybe even a third.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=Angry;640413]I think that we could get a 4th, maybe even a third.[/quote]

honestly maybe a mid 5th at best, he is getting up there in age and is pretty inconsistant year to year

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=mlmdub130;640415]honestly maybe a mid 5th at best, he is getting up there in age and is pretty inconsistant year to year[/quote]

How about if he makes the pro bowl?

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=mlmdub130;640396]exactly why not have two starting te's no one will know who to cover in a double te set

so we ship off cooley what happens when davis goes down we put in yoder?

[B]everyone keeps saying the word depth, does anyone know what that means[/B]????[/quote]

Apparently not. Once we start having some actual depth (not someone off the street playing 2nd string), we want to trade the starter. When Davis was drafted all we heard about was 2 TE sets. With the pass receiving skills these two possess I would think it would cause some problems for the opposing defenses. And as you say, does anyone think Yoder would be having this kind of success if Davis went down? Yoder can be decent at times but he's no Cooley or Davis. We're not going to get a 1 and 3 and there's no guarantee we'd even get a starter with the pick we got for Cooley. As far as his popularity, he got that way from his play on the field, the other stuff just increased it. I wouldn't put it pass Vinny to trade Cooley and use the pick for a TE. People are assuming what we'd do with it. I thought we'd draft an o-lineman for sure last year.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=Angry;640405]How in the hell is Carter a product of Haynesworth when Haynesworth has been injured so much. I think the Carter is just having a good season.[/quote]

I guess it's a little far fetched but I think part of Carters success recently without Haynesworth is a product of the confidence he's gotten from playing with him. Another part of that might be that Blache has loosened up scheme wise but in the end I think that Big Al has helped Andre get his swagger back. Either way Andre feels he can get to the QB and that has to count for something.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;640426]I guess it's a little far fetched but I think part of Carters success recently without Haynesworth is a product of the confidence he's gotten from playing with him. Another part of that might be that Blache has loosened up scheme wise but in the end I think that Big Al has helped Andre get his swagger back. Either way Andre feels he can get to the QB and that has to count for something.[/quote]

You could be on to something there Dirtbag, he's definitely playing better this year.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;640384][B]I agree. It seems like Davis is better at finishing drives. [/B]

My eye analysis (which probably isn't worth as much as the beer that I drink during the game) is that Davis creates more space than Cooley does. Cooley has the edge on breaking tackles but I think Davis is definitely faster. I think that both have great hands.[/quote]

If the O-line, running game, and Devin Thomas were all clicking when Cooley was healthy like they are now, he would be putting up some serious numbers like he always does.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;640426]I guess it's a little far fetched but I think part of Carters success recently without Haynesworth is a product of the confidence he's gotten from playing with him. Another part of that might be that Blache has loosened up scheme wise but in the end I think that Big Al has helped Andre get his swagger back. Either way Andre feels he can get to the QB and that has to count for something.[/quote]

Also, having Orakpo start to come on and bring double teams his way opens more options for Carter. Clearly, this is what was hoped when they brought in that guy from Miami after Daniels went down, but he didn't have the gas to make the same impact. DLmen feed off of each other, and the fact that AH, AC, and Orakpo, all are capable of getting to the qb, or taking double teams makes it more difficult to scheme against any one of them on a single play.

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

Why are we talking about trading cooley JUST STOP THIS BS

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

fred davis is ballin...we should dump cooley like a bad habit and get a 3rd or maybe a 2nd...can't really imagine anybody giving us anything like that though...realisitically he is worth a 4th

Re: Chris Cooley for a 1st and a 3rd -- would you do it?
 

[quote=tootergray34;640787]fred davis is ballin...we should dump cooley like a bad habit and get a 3rd or maybe a 2nd...can't really imagine anybody giving us anything like that though...realisitically he is worth a 4th[/quote]

man, this is why people need to stop playing the franchise mode in madden. :doh: