Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

People have been posting things about OLineman back on pages 12 & 13.
I personally think that we should draft Bradford, then with our 2nd rounder get Vlad Duccasse from UMass, he's great for a zone blocking scheme, and can play RT or G already. I feel like in the later rounds we could get Jason Fox from Miami who is coming off ankle surgery I believe and get him in like the 5th round, he can be groomed in at LT in the future, you re-sign Levi Jones and sign Tony Pashos, then our shaky tackle situation all the sudden looks a whole lot better to me. If we draft Matt Tennant the center from BC who some say looks like Tom Nalen the former Denver bronco all pro center, and sign Kris Kuper and Hamilton as backups/starters at guard and center, our OL looks again, a lot better to me than it did last year. we already have Edwin Williams and Kory Lichtenstreiger who look like they could be pretty good in the zone blocking scheme.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=WaldSkins;662367][YT][url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ckSY_-cg5E&feature=PlayList&p=C2009D38B64C47B0&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=12]YouTube - Sean Taylor - Bone Thug[/url][/YT]
taylor mays is no sean taylor.[/quote]

you will never see me complsining about a sean taylor video i can assure you of that

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

I didnt say Taylor Mays was Sean Taylor. I'm simply saying that he has the measurables to be the next feared big hitting safety in the NFL. There are alot of good DB and S coaches out there that can fix his coverage skills that he lacked this year. I'm just sayin, the joy i get from watching Sean Taylor knock dudes out, no eagle or cowboy fan should ever get to experience. HAIL!

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=PHazard;662374]I didnt say Taylor Mays was Sean Taylor. I'm simply saying that he has the measurables to be the next feared big hitting safety in the NFL.[B] There are alot of good DB and S coaches out there that can fix his coverage skills that he lacked this year[/B]. I'm just sayin, the joy i get from watching Sean Taylor knock dudes out, no eagle or cowboy fan should ever get to experience. HAIL![/quote]

Well if our safety coach can't turn a top 5 pick into a decent safety what makes you think he can do it with Taylor Mays??

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

I didnt necessarily say OUR DB and S coaches inparticular. But if Shanahan kept them he must see sumthing in them that we dont. As far as Landry, he is playin OUT of position. You have completely different responsibilities between a FS and a SS. You can teach a player technique but its much harder to change a players instincts. Their instincts are a big part of what got them to the NFL. He's not used to being the last line of defense. he's used to being close to the line of scrimmage and mixin it up wit da big boys, n not playin center field. Everyone was praising Landry when he was playing next to ST n was helpin stuff the run.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=PHazard;662380]I didnt necessarily say OUR DB and S coaches inparticular. But if Shanahan kept them he must see sumthing in them that we dont. As far as Landry, he is playin OUT of position. You have completely different responsibilities between a FS and a SS. You can teach a player technique but its much harder to change a players instincts. Their instincts are a big part of what got them to the NFL. He's not used to being the last line of defense. he's used to being close to the line of scrimmage and mixin it up wit da big boys, n not playin center field. [B]Everyone was praising Landry when he was playing next to ST n was helpin stuff the run.[/B][/quote]

Yea he is out of position but that still doesn't explain his poor tackling technique.

I dont think Laron has been the same since he was trucked by Brandon Jacobs at the beginning of the 2008 season.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=WaldSkins;662381]Yea he is out of position but that still doesn't explain his poor tackling technique.

I dont think Laron has been the same since he was trucked by Brandon Jacobs at the beginning of the 2008 season.[/quote]

Well @ SS his poor tackling technique was much easier to overlook for a couple of reasons. He was closer to the line of scrimmage so it was harder for a rb or wr to see it coming so they couldnt move out of the way in time and on top of that, bein that close to the line, when he hit ppl it was hard enough to knock them back, so that LBs were in the area as well as DL comin from behind to clean up Landrys work. Now you move Landry to FS and put him 15-20 yards off the ball, now a RB breaks thru the 1st line and LB's and what do you have? Landry is a SS who is physical and VERY aggresive (hence biting on double moves) Cuz he sees sumthin and ATTACKS....just like a SS should. SO what you have is a RB in open space against Landry who of course is running full speed forward cuz of his aggression and the NFL of course is made up of athletes so its not hard to juke (not applying to jacobs lol) and make landry look stupid tryin to tackle. When Brandon Jacobs trucked him over, that was his FIRST game @ FS. Wouldnt have happened if he was @ SS cuz he woulda been closer to the line so jacobs wouldnt have gotten so much speed. but @ FS, wit 20 yards seperating the two of them, both getting running starts @ fulll speed, i dont care who you are 265lbs. is gon run over 205lbs damn near every time.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

Todd McShays new mock has us taking Anthony Davis, that's what I would love to see happen!

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=LandrySlice;662385]Todd McShays new mock has us taking Anthony Davis, that's what I would love to see happen![/quote]

Finally, someone has us taking a freaking tackle. Although McShay has Okung falling to #5, I just don't see us passing up on him.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=LandrySlice;662385]Todd McShays new mock has us taking Anthony Davis, that's what I would love to see happen![/quote]

Have you watched any of the Anthony Davis highlights that people have been posting in this thread?

He sucks.

This leads me to believe that Todd McShay is an ass clown.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

Its a tough choice but both can be an franchise QB for us. It all comes down to the combine.....I can see Bradford pulling it. But Clausen is the more upside guy, he's seen pressure, a 3 year WCO QB, and has good mobility in and out of the pocket.


These two are the best QB's since the great Cutler draft that had alot of hype. Actully this is better than that, Matt Leinhart and VY where to become busts. Cutler was never considered one.
But we can compare to both of them but Clausen is special.....he's the more accurate , less armed Cutler in this draft.
Any idiot would be dumb to think Candle could do any wonders for us.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

Oh need to correct myself, we def. do not have the same DB coach still in Jerry Grey. it was highly publicized about everything that went down with him and now he is with the seahawks. I meant we still have the same Safeties coach.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

I looked at some footage on Davis, and didin't see how he specifically sucked? Can someone fill me in please?

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

Davis is arguably the most talented LT in this draft...but he's not really a ZBS guy. But even that's not such a huge deal, neither was Ryan Clady I don't think.

The bigger concern is his attitude and work ethic. Late for practices, skips meetings, shows up overweight. Doesn't always put in the effort to match his talent

But that kind of question mark is just the type of guy that Shanahan likes

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=LandrySlice;662396]I looked at some footage on Davis, and didin't see how he specifically sucked? Can someone fill me in please?[/quote]

Gives up on blocks, doesn't move his feet at times, bends at the waist at times. It's all in that video. Besides it's not that he sucks, it's that he's not top 10 material.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

^^^ i think, atleast what we have read on shanny, is that he likes those top talent guys that drop to the 3rd round or later. (clarrett, b marshall had off field 'tude)

i dont see davis dropping past the mid part of round 1.

when a guy has weight and work ethic problems, i would stay away from them in the first couple rounds imo. this davis reminds me of the OT davis last year that the bengals took. the bengals davis held out for a long time, then when he finally took the practice field for the very first time he injured himself for the year.

granted this davis hasnt left the combine early yet or has footage of his man boobs bouncing around but no way do i take a big overweight guy with dedication problems in the first 2 rounds.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=over the mountain;662473]^^^ i think, atleast what we have read on shanny, is that he likes those top talent guys that drop to the 3rd round or later. (clarrett, b marshall had off field 'tude)

i dont see davis dropping past the mid part of round 1.

when a guy has weight and work ethic problems, i would stay away from them in the first couple rounds imo. this davis reminds me of the OT davis last year that the bengals took. the bengals davis held out for a long time, then when he finally took the practice field for the very first time he injured himself for the year.

granted this davis hasnt left the combine early yet or [B]has footage of his man boobs bouncing around[/B] but no way do i take a big overweight guy with dedication problems in the first 2 rounds.[/quote]

I think Gerald McCoy did the man boobs gig this year.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/malcolm-kelly-gives-his-though.html#more]Redskins Insider - Malcolm Kelly gives his thoughts on Sam Bradford[/url]

Malcolm Kelly's take on Sam Bradford.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

The more I watch tapes of Bradford, hear him talk, and talk to people about him. I think he's worth whatever risk his shoulder might bring.

I'll admit though to perhaps being overly enamored with his intangibles

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=SmootSmack;662575]The more I watch tapes of Bradford, hear him talk, and talk to people about him. I think he's worth whatever risk his shoulder might bring.

I'll admit though to perhaps being overly enamored with his intangibles[/quote]

Bradford is really the only guy that keeps throwing a wrench into my "O-Line first" thought process. We can win with JC with a good o-line, I really believe that, but Bradford for some reason does appear to be "special." He seems to have the accuracy, the smarts, and the demeanor to be an outstanding QB. I can't wait for the combine.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=53Fan;662595]Bradford is really the only guy that keeps throwing a wrench into my "O-Line first" thought process. We can win with JC with a good o-line, I really believe that, but Bradford for some reason does appear to be "special." He seems to have the accuracy, the smarts, and the demeanor to be an outstanding QB. I can't wait for the combine.[/quote]

Bradfor minus his injury plus him actually playing in his last season would change my "O-line first' attitude." It just that with our luck, I could see Bradford getting injured during pre-season. I guess that I should give Shanny's ability to build an offensive line more of a chance, but I just feel that a first-round tackle would be a good way to rebuild our worst unit from last season.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

But we shouldn't take a tackle at #4 just to say we took a tackle.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=SmootSmack;662612]But we shouldn't take a tackle at #4 just to say we took a tackle.[/quote]

Come SS, you know I'm not that simple minded. I think the best situation is to trade down and get more picks. I just don't like the whole risking it all in a QB at #4, especially if the best tackle in the draft is available.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

Let's just trade for Billy Volek and be done with it.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[QUOTE=Ruhskins;662609]Bradfor minus his injury plus him actually playing in his last season would change my "O-line first' attitude." It just that with our luck, I could see Bradford getting injured during pre-season. I guess that I should give Shanny's ability to build an offensive line more of a chance,[B] but I just feel that a first-round tackle would be a good way to rebuild our worst unit from last season.[/[/B]QUOTE]

It's hard to argue with that Ruh, therein lies my mental conflict.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=SmootSmack;662612]But we shouldn't take a tackle at #4 just to say we took a tackle.[/quote]We should take one though if we have access to the top one on our board. If we don't, then, that's another story.

Then we're left between picking between our top quarterback and our top defensive player.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

I wish we had the 14th pick instead of the 4th where a guy like Best or McLain is more easily justified

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=SmootSmack;662666]I wish we had the 14th pick instead of the 4th where a guy like Best or McLain is more easily justified[/quote]Agreed.

We just have to find the player who can best help us build a team that can beat the Chargers backups.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=GTripp0012;662667]Agreed.

We just have to find the player who can best help us build a team that can beat the Chargers backups.[/quote]

Why do you think I want to trade for Billy Volek?

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=WaldSkins;662668]Why do you think I want to trade for Billy Volek?[/quote]Something about birds and stones?

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=GTripp0012;662670]Something about birds and stones?[/quote]

Something like that

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

Never mind Billy Volek. Two words Charlie Whitehurst

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=SmootSmack;662677]Never mind Billy Volek. Two words Charlie Whitehurst[/quote]

He threw less interceptions then JC last year so that is a plus.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=SmootSmack;662666]I wish we had the 14th pick instead of the 4th where a guy like Best or McLain is more easily justified[/quote]

Last position I want to see this team draft for the next 2 years before round 3 is running back. I know we need one but Shanahan is very good at finding the guys late, not to mention the irony that his last second round running back (Tatum Bell) didn't do so well.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=SmootSmack;662677]Never mind Billy Volek. Two words Charlie Whitehurst[/quote]

Former High School teammate of mine. I'm actually kind of surprised that they haven't bumped him up ahead of Volek yet but the fact that he's stayed in the league as long as he has must mean they see something in him.

I also got a chance to play with his cousin who was ironically a lineman. He has a little brother named Kane who's also a pretty good QB at my old high school, but he doesn't have the same height that Charlie has, so I'm not sure how aggressively he's going to get recruited.

But yeah, I'd love to see him get a shot at starting somewhere. I remember on draft day a few of the gurus felt he could easily develop into a starter one day. Still not a bad life. Making over $300,000 a year while living in San Diego playing football.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

Thought this was interesting. Per Mel Kiper:
[quote]Q: How much does the way Jimmy Clausen play remind you of Brady Quinn? I'm only wondering because Quinn slipped in the draft and hasn't made an impact in the NFL yet.

-- Jordan (Melrose, Mass.)


A: They're two completely different guys, the biggest (and closest) similarity being that both were coached by Charlie Weis. In the case of Quinn, let's at least point out that the jury is still out on how this guy will be perceived as an NFL quarterback. He still has a chance, bottom line, and that's up to Mike Holmgren and Eric Mangini. But to compare, start with style. Clausen, despite really gaudy TD-INT numbers, has a bit of riverboat gambler in him, and until this year, his surrounding team and blocking were bad. Quinn played with much better talent and didn't have to gamble as much. Clausen played for a team where the defense wasn't stopping people, and it became clear he felt he had to score. That he took his shots and still didn't make mistakes says a lot. Clausen is also a more accurate thrower. Their arm strength is similar -- neither guy is remarkable there, but both can get it done. Neither is a scrambler, but they can both maneuver decently around the pocket.

One thing I'll say about Clausen: He's tough, and when I talk to people who know, his marks as a competitor are simply off the charts. Former Notre Dame defensive coordinator Jon Tenuta told me that if everyone played with Clausen's competitiveness, everyone on the previous coaching staff would still have their jobs. Golden Tate said he can't remember throws that were off the mark, and Tate, as good as he is, doesn't get much separation as a receiver. Clausen had to put it on him. I know Clausen could drop, and I'm higher on him than a lot of people, but this kid's done well and played hurt, and he's done it under center, which means a lot. He could even go higher than Bradford when it's all said and done.[/quote]

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

I think Kiper's really underselling the quality of the Notre Dame offense. Yeah, that 2007 season offered nothing in terms of skilled players or line protectoin, and Clausens overall numbers are somewhat weighed down by that season, but he had two years of a strong pass protecting OL, and with the exception of some injuries to players in 2008, it's hard to argue that the skill position players weren't better than what Quinn had (which, admittedly, was also a very strong offensive unit, independent of the quarterback).

If nothing else though, you don't have a toughness issue in Clausen. In Bradford...who knows, really?

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

This is a good article from Rich Tandler:

Redskins Draft Order Dilemma: QB Or OL At Number 4?


Recommend Comment(26) Email Print Sharing RSS Thursday, February 11, 2010, 8:45 PM

By Rich Tandler
Redskins Correspondent
CSNwashington.com

The NFL draft is over two months away, and Free Agency, The Combine, and Pro Day workouts have yet to take place. However premature, there is a lot of speculation as to the route the Washington Redskins will take on the first day of the draft, which occurs on prime time TV on Thursday, April 22.

The Redskins have the fourth and 36th overall picks (number 4 in round 2). The team is under extreme pressure to get these picks right. If they use them well, they will have two players who will be able to step in as starters right away and contribute. If they blow one of them, it will be a major setback.

One possible scenario that has been discussed by fans and the media would have the Redskins taking an offensive lineman with one of those top picks, and a quarterback with the other. That is logical speculation given that the O-line is in major need of rebuilding and that starting quarterback Jason Campbell will be an unrestricted free agent next year.

What is up for debate is the order in which the team should take the quarterback and lineman, probably an offensive tackle. There are those who want them to take an offensive tackle, such as Russell Okung or Anthony Davis, at the top of the draft, and then get the best available quarterback with that 36th pick. Others favor taking the quarterback first, landing someone like Sam Bradford or Jimmy Clausen, and start the offensive line rebuilding in the second round with the best lineman on the board.

In choosing between these two possibilities (and a myriad of others), one thing that Mike Shanahan must assess is the risk-reward equation. The Redskins need to avoid having one of these picks turn out to be a bust much more than they need to send both of them to the Pro Bowl.

And a look a recent draft history indicates that, if they want to go OL-QB in some order with their first two picks, they should take the quarterback early and the lineman in the second round.

We reached this conclusion by doing a study to measure the bust potential for quarterbacks and linemen selected in the first and second rounds of the draft. We used a simple measuring stick: how many games the player actually has started compared to how many games he possibly could have started. This method is far from comprehensive, but it’s a good, basic indication of whether or not a given player is a bust, or if a group of players has succeeded or failed. After all, if a first or second round player isn’t starting after a short period of time, that’s an indication that something isn’t right.

Players selected in the 2009 draft could have started 16 games; those picked on 2008 have 32 possible starts, and so on. By adding up the players’ possible starts and comparing them to their actual starts, we are able to see how much impact they had as a group, again on a very basic level.

From 2004 through 2009, 17 quarterbacks were taken in the first round. Of a possible combined 1,024 starts, the players in this group actually have started 638, or 62 percent.

In that same period of time, 27 offensive linemen were taken in the first round, and they have started 1,093 games out of a possible 1,328. That comes out to 82 percent.

Comparing first-round quarterbacks to first-round linemen, then, it would appear that if the goal is to avoid a bust, taking a lineman first is the way to go.

But let’s take a look at selections in the second round. The 29 linemen selected have started 1,077 of a possible 1,648 games, or 65 percent.

The eight second-round quarterbacks have started 49 out of 352 games. That’s a paltry 14 percent. Just looking at that number, one would have to say that the potential for a second-round quarterback being a bust is alarmingly high.

Let’s look at those second-round quarterbacks individually:


Year Team Quarterback Starts:
Actual/Possible
Percentage
2006 NYJ Kellen Clemens
9/64 14%
2006 MIN Tavaris Jackson
19/64 30%
2007 PHI Kevin Kolb
2/48 4%
2007 MIA John Beck
4/48 8%
2007 DET Drew Stanton
1/48 2%
2008 GB Brian Brohm
1/32 3%
2008 MIA Chad Henne
13/32 41%
2009 MIA Pat White
0/16 0%


No quarterbacks were drafted in the second round in 2004 or 2005.

Out of the eight names, you can indentify two who most think could end up being unquestioned starters, Kolb and Henne. If Henne can take control in Miami, White may change positions. It may be premature to write off Clemens and Jackson although neither has take possession of the job when given the opportunity to do so. It is not premature to affix the “bust” label to Beck, Stanton, and Brohm.

Just to take a peek a little further in the past, we looked back at the second-round quarterbacks in the 2000-2003 drafts. It turns out that only two quarterbacks were taken in the second round of those four drafts. Both were selected in 2001. One, Drew Brees, certainly is one quarterback who is the exception to the rule. Although he didn’t start until his second season, and was just OK that year and in 2003, he broke out in 2004 and has been a stud ever since.

The other 2001 second-rounder was Quincy Carter, drafted by the Cowboys. He did start 31 games in three seasons there, but he never developed into a solid starter, and he was out of the league after starting three games for the Giants in 2004.

One can only theorize as to why so few second-round quarterbacks work out. One possibility may be that since quarterbacks are so highly valued, teams may reach to take them. You can see some quarterbacks who may have had second-round talent--players such as J. P. Losman, Jason Campbell and Brady Quinn--being snatched up in the first round because teams are so anxious to get their signal caller. That leaves lesser talent available in the second round.

That also might account for why about half as many quarterbacks were taken in the second round (8) as in the first round (17). With the quarterback talent so depleted by the time the second round arrives, most teams may decide to address other needs there and take a flyer on a developmental quarterback later in the draft. The numbers of offensive linemen drafted early were almost evenly split between the first round (27) and the second (29).

Certainly, there is more risk taking a first-round quarterback than there is in selecting a first-round offensive lineman. But you are taking much, much less of a chance if you take an O-lineman in the second round than if you take the quarterback.

Drafting a quarterback this year is not the only option the Redskins have to address the position. But on the list of possibilities, it appears that drafting one in the second round may be the least desirable.

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

^ So the absolute best way to go would be to draft o-line with the first 2 picks. :) I'll take R. Okung and C. Brown...T. Williams...B. Buluga. Whichever is still there in the second. I mean the odds are in our favor we'd get 2 young starters for the o-line right?

Re: Bradford/Clausen now split among Mock Drafts
 

[quote=53Fan;662881]^ So the absolute best way to go would be to draft o-line with the first 2 picks. :) I'll take R. Okung and C. Brown...T. Williams...B. Buluga. Whichever is still there in the second. I mean the odds are in our favor we'd get 2 young starters for the o-line right?[/quote]

I sure won't be complaining if they do this.

Doubt it happens though.

I am really starting to get the feeling that we are going to draft Sam Bradford.