Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;665363]Are you talking to me or BHA? I mean I know I sort of endorsed BHA's 3rd round proposal but I had a different scenario. [B]Ironically though I believe the QB's that fetch second round picks are either truly seasoned veterans (who usually get traded away for much higher a la Jay Cutler), smart teams dealing with dumb teams (Eagles getting AJ Feely for a 2nd round pick from Miami), or guys that have shown flashes (Matt Schuab and Matt Cassel).[/B]

Cassel was part of an 11-5 Patriots team (11-4 in games Cassel started) and that was pretty much his only year playing. Matt Schuab lit teams up in the preseason and then played well when given a chance during the regular season. However at the same time there was a sort of mystery. It's the same reason why guys that are valued as top picks (like Matt Leinart and Jakim Noah in the NBA) then go on to drop a few spots the following year.

It's sad but the more time scouts have to dissect a player the lower their value, well more so when they're initially valued high. Obviously we have guys every year that are valued as 3rd or 4th round picks during preseason only to end up as 1st round picks by the time the draft roles around.

Could JC fetch a 2nd round pick? Possibly but I really think teams are scared by the fact that he has a relatively large body of work and only so much to show for it. But hey you never know. [B]All we need is to get a call from Al Davis or Ralph Wilson and we're raking in the picks.[/B]

On second thought if we can convince Jason to change his first name to Matt then I think we could grantee a second round pick for Campbell. In short Matt Campbell is worth more then Jason Campbell.[/quote]

1) JC is a "truly seasoned veteran." And he has "shown flashes." Sooner or later there will be a personnel guy out there who thinks that JC unfairly has been mismanaged and/or has underachieved due to his offensive line.

2) Your example of Feely is a good one. He attracted a #2 pick. Hold out long enough and someone will offer that for JC (someone like Al Davis or Ralph Wilson, as you mention).

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;665363]Are you talking to me or BHA? I mean I know I sort of endorsed BHA's 3rd round proposal but I had a different scenario. Ironically though I believe the QB's that fetch second round picks are either truly seasoned veterans (who usually get traded away for much higher a la Jay Cutler), smart teams dealing with dumb teams (Eagles getting AJ Feely for a 2nd round pick from Miami), or guys that have shown flashes (Matt Schuab and Matt Cassel).

Cassel was part of an 11-5 Patriots team (11-4 in games Cassel started) and that was pretty much his only year playing. Matt Schuab lit teams up in the preseason and then played well when given a chance during the regular season. However at the same time there was a sort of mystery. It's the same reason why guys that are valued as top picks (like Matt Leinart and Jakim Noah in the NBA) then go on to drop a few spots the following year.

It's sad but the more time scouts have to dissect a player the lower their value, well more so when they're initially valued high. Obviously we have guys every year that are valued as 3rd or 4th round picks during preseason only to end up as 1st round picks by the time the draft roles around.

Could JC fetch a 2nd round pick? [B]Possibly but I really think teams are scared by the fact that he has a relatively large body of work and only so much to show for it.[/B] But hey you never know. All we need is to get a call from Al Davis or Ralph Wilson and we're raking in the picks.

On second thought if we can convince Jason to change his first name to Matt then I think we could grantee a second round pick for Campbell. In short Matt Campbell is worth more then Jason Campbell.[/quote]
I will be interested to see what the market bears out for JC, if we ever do. I understand the points you make, and generally agree that the book on JC has basically been written, but I can't help but think there is a team out there, who will look at him, look at the mess that has been the Redskins, and decide to give this guy a shot. I don't think a 2nd round pick for a solid starter is that over the top.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=tryfuhl;665362]That's why we were able to trade him away last year for a 2nd right?[/quote]

Even if that rumor about a number 2 pick were true, remember who was shopping for the Redskins groceries then. Other GM's may have perceived Vinny as "fleece-able."

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

I just don't see anyone trying to give a straight up 2nd for JC. Once you start mixing in other players/picks maybe you could work them a bit in that direction, but that's about it.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=Lotus;665360]^^ I'm not the world's greatest JC fan. But you guys are seriously undervaluing JC with your trade proposals. A 3rd rounder for a QB with a lifetime passer rating in the 80's and with significant starting experience? Some other team will value him eventually. We should hang on to him until we get that high value.[/quote]

Lotus I think JC's value has been way higher within the franchise than elsewhere in the league. Hard to tell if that's the case now w/ Shanahan/Allen in the driver's seat. But I doubt very much they expect a valuable trade for Jason alone...whenever the franchise shopped him in the past in basically amounted to zero interest for him. In fact I think the only way he gets traded is part of a larger deal.

Also man look at where Jason could have "connections?" Zorn is working w/ a well established QB/offense. Gibbs only connection is to DC. Where is Saunders? Jason just doesn't have a lot of leads to look for.

I said it a couple weeks ago and think about it more and more...I could see JC out of the league completely soon if Shanny dumps him. Jason sees himself far better than basically everyone else does (who matters in the NFL...sorry GTripp :)).

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

^ Well, fair enough guys. Like I said, I am not JC's greatest supporter, so I'm not going to push the argument too far. Let's see what happens.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

i could see campbell netting us a 2nd rounder in some type of package deal. maybe with the bills.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=Lotus;665415]^ Well, fair enough guys. Like I said, I am not JC's greatest supporter, so I'm not going to push the argument too far. Let's see what happens.[/quote]

And to be fair I have been a huge supporter. I also still know the best scenario for everyone is JC becomes ProBowl QB in the B & G this year.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=The Goat;665412]Lotus I think JC's value has been way higher within the franchise than elsewhere in the league. Hard to tell if that's the case now w/ Shanahan/Allen in the driver's seat. But I doubt very much they expect a valuable trade for Jason alone...whenever the franchise shopped him in the past in basically amounted to zero interest for him. In fact I think the only way he gets traded is part of a larger deal.

Also man look at where Jason could have "connections?" Zorn is working w/ a well established QB/offense. Gibbs only connection is to DC. Where is Saunders? Jason just doesn't have a lot of leads to look for.

I said it a couple weeks ago and think about it more and more...I could see JC out of the league completely soon if Shanny dumps him. Jason sees himself far better than basically everyone else does (who matters in the NFL...sorry GTripp :)).[/quote]
pretty much any team would be thrilled to have JC as a backup, he won't be out of the league unless he demands to start and holds out otherwise

there are spots for him even if teams aren't clawing at the gates to get to him, including starting spots

you can't expect jc to say "well it's up to coach to decide if i'm good enough to start" .. mentioning potential incompetence is career suicide

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=The Goat;665424]And to be fair I have been a huge supporter. I also still know the best scenario for everyone is JC becomes ProBowl QB in the B & G this year.[/quote]

Personally I can't decide if Campbell is going to be David Garrard or Matt Schuab. Depends on what day you ask me.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

How about Jason Campbell and the 4th overall pick to San Franciso for their 13th and 18th overall picks?

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=Son Of Man;665442]How about Jason Campbell and the 4th overall pick to San Franciso for their 13th and 18th overall picks?[/quote]

Not to far fetched but the thing is

1) The 4th pick should cost two first round picks on it's own

2) If you drop down that far and trade your QB then you have not only lost a starter but you've severely limited your chances of getting Bradford or Clausen to replace him. Your best hope is that one of them drops which is not something I would bank on in this situation.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;665444]Not to far fetched but the thing is

1) [B]The 4th pick should cost two first round picks on it's own [/B]

2) If you drop down that far and trade your QB then you have not only lost a starter but you've severely limited your chances of getting Bradford or Clausen to replace him. Your best hope is that one of them drops which is not something I would bank on in this situation.[/quote]

I think this would be a very good scenario if we can pick up one of the top three tackles at #13 or #18, and whether we could pick up a first-round QB. Although, after Bradford and Clausen, are any of the other QBs worth of picking up in the first round?

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

I don't think anybody's going to be trading a 13 and an 18 for 4, but who knows

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

I'd also like to point out though that theres no one the 49ers would really want at 4 unless they want to get a QB. Other then that I don't really see it. Maybe if Berry was there but I doubt that will happen either.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;665481]I'd also like to point out though that theres no one the 49ers would really want at 4 unless they want to get a QB. Other then that I don't really see it. Maybe if Berry was there but I doubt that will happen either.[/quote]

They want OT help in the worst way

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=SmootSmack;665487]They want OT help in the worst way[/quote]

Really? What happened to Joe Staley, or is it the right side they want to shore up?

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

I don't know, just that they want to shore up their line

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=SmootSmack;665494]I don't know, just that they want to shore up their line[/quote]

Damnit Smootsmack, why you be misleading people. At least the 49ers have a high quality tackle. We have a guy who used to be a high quality tackle, another guy who can't bend his knees, and God knows who else. We're the worst kind of way not them.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;665525]Damnit Smootsmack, why you be misleading people. At least the 49ers have a high quality tackle. We have a guy who used to be a high quality tackle, another guy who can't bend his knees, and God knows who else. We're the worst kind of way not them.[/quote]
Isn't that why they're not worried about Pashos? Because they want someone younger in there? I don't really know so that's an actual question

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

The 49ers have Staley, but they are just as weak on the interior OL as they are at OT. Whereas with us, our interior OL woes were in many ways self inflicted (merry-go round at RG and inexcusable loyalty to Rabach), the Niners simply don't appear to have anyone who can play the position. Chilo Rachal sucks, Adam Snyder might be the worst lineman in the league, and Barry Sims hasn't been promising in about ten years.

You could imagine why they would be hot on OL help. Like with us, there are simply no internal solutions there.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=tryfuhl;665362]That's why we were able to trade him away last year for a 2nd right?[/quote]

That was last year before he had another year of making the same old mistakes he always makes and didnt really develop. I think the SKins would be very lucky to get a team to take JC off their hands and give them something of value in return.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

I was thinking (watch out) Why would the Redskins want Jason to mentor a young rookie QB? They have been trying to get him out of town for the last couple of years. If you think the guy is that bad, why the hell have him teach/mentor a rookie. Only time you do that is when the VET QB is on his way out of the league, and is pretty good. Personally, I think Jason can win in the league if given an offensive line that isn't a swinging gate on both ends, and a running game that isn't 3 yards and a cloud of dust.

I just thought that was funny, saying they wanted Campbell around to help the young QB....Isn't Campbell still considered young at 25 or 26??

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=#56fanatic;665619]I was thinking (watch out) Why would the Redskins want Jason to mentor a young rookie QB? They have been trying to get him out of town for the last couple of years. If you think the guy is that bad, why the hell have him teach/mentor a rookie. Only time you do that is when the VET QB is on his way out of the league, and is pretty good. Personally, I think Jason can win in the league if given an offensive line that isn't a swinging gate on both ends, and a running game that isn't 3 yards and a cloud of dust.

I just thought that was funny, saying they wanted Campbell around to help the young QB....Isn't Campbell still considered young at 25 or 26??[/quote]

I couldnt agree more. You dont let JC get anywhere near your young 1st round pick QB.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=#56fanatic;665619]I was thinking (watch out) Why would the Redskins want Jason to mentor a young rookie QB? They have been trying to get him out of town for the last couple of years. If you think the guy is that bad, why the hell have him teach/mentor a rookie. Only time you do that is when the VET QB is on his way out of the league, and is pretty good. Personally, I think Jason can win in the league if given an offensive line that isn't a swinging gate on both ends, and a running game that isn't 3 yards and a cloud of dust.

I just thought that was funny, saying they wanted Campbell around to help the young QB....Isn't Campbell still considered young at 25 or 26??[/quote]

Jason is 29 years old unless i am mistaken, because he will turn 30 during the season this year....

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=SolidSnake84;665625]Jason is 29 years old unless i am mistaken, because he will turn 30 during the season this year....[/quote]

He's actually 28, he'll be 29 at the end of the year (Dec 31st).

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=irish;665623]I couldnt agree more. You dont let JC get anywhere near your young 1st round pick QB.[/quote]

I'm with you there. Jason's got enough problems of his own, he's not the type of guy I would want mentoring anyone. For that reason, I think we either keep Campbell and develop him OR we draft a 1st round QB. We don't do both. If we are planning on drafting a first round QB, we need to move Campbell and then pickup Jake Plummer to start in 2010 and mentor the young guy.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;665706]I'm with you there. Jason's got enough problems of his own, he's not the type of guy I would want mentoring anyone. For that reason, I think we either keep Campbell and develop him OR we draft a 1st round QB. We don't do both. If we are planning on drafting a first round QB, we need to move Campbell and then pickup Jake Plummer to start in 2010 and mentor the young guy.[/quote]

Say what? Pickup Jake Plummer as a mentor?

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

Jake Plummer hasnt been in the league in 2 years, maybe 3. And He just had an interview where he didnt have nice things to say about Shanahan. Thats a reach.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;665706]I'm with you there. Jason's got enough problems of his own, he's not the type of guy I would want mentoring anyone. For that reason, I think we either keep Campbell and develop him OR we draft a 1st round QB. We don't do both. If we are planning on drafting a first round QB, we need to move Campbell and then pickup Jake Plummer to start in 2010 and mentor the young guy.[/quote]

The young guy comes in and starts the 1st game this fall. Other rookies have done it and so can he.

This idea of sitting around and watching just doesnt work. Either Gibbs saw right away that JC didnt have it and made excuses for sitting him or was truthful and sat him to develop. Either way I dont think all that sitting around did JC any good.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

Jake Plummer?? Really? The same guy that has been out of the league for a few years now and seems to be harboring some bitterness towards Shanahan? This is the guy we want as a mentor?

Why are some down on JC being a mentor? The guy has handled himself with nothing but class through some very trying times. From all accounts he's a good teammate with a solid work ethic and some are acting as if he's some sort of a-hole? I really don't understand where people are coming from sometimes.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

I feel like Gibbs knew that Ramsey wasn't the answer, and at that point Mark Brunell was just a backup, so he felt that they needed a QB for the future. In 2005, obviously Brunell was rejuvinated, and Campbell stayed on the bench.

If 2006 hadn't went so poor, i'm sure Campbell would still be on the bench, but Brunell was benched in 2006 for the young guy, just because they needed to have somebody to blame. I mean we all know the deal with Al Saunders...he wasnt the solution. If they just kept the Gibbs offense in 2006, we probably would have won 10 or 11 games that year.....

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=Mattyk;665737]Jake Plummer?? Really? The same guy that has been out of the league for a few years now and seems to be harboring some bitterness towards Shanahan? This is the guy we want as a mentor?

[B]Why are some down on JC being a mentor? The guy has handled himself with nothing but class through some very trying times. From all accounts he's a good teammate with a solid work ethic[/B] and some are acting as if he's some sort of a-hole? I really don't understand where people are coming from sometimes.[/quote]

Exactly. A mentor doesn't have to have that "IT" that JC may be missing, he needs to understand, and be able to share what he has learned and guide a rook through the transition from college to the pros. I believe JC would be perfect in the role, if he is called upon to do it.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=Mattyk;665737]Jake Plummer?? Really? The same guy that has been out of the league for a few years now and seems to be harboring some bitterness towards Shanahan? This is the guy we want as a mentor?

Why are some down on JC being a mentor? The guy has handled himself with nothing but class through some very trying times. From all accounts he's a good teammate with a solid work ethic and some are acting as if he's some sort of a-hole? I really don't understand where people are coming from sometimes.[/quote]

I dont know about the others but I dont think I was implying JC was an a-hole and that's why I wouldnt want him as a mentor. I would let JC tell a young QB how to handle the media or behave in the locker room but as for anything having to do with playing the QB position, no way. He has no feel for the position, has weak fundamentals and continues to make the same mistakes he always has and I dont want that near my new young QB.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

You have QB coaches out there that didn't play the position as well as the guy that they're teaching, but they still know the proper mechanics and fundamentals. JC could be a good personal mentor and probably knows his position very well, it's just can he take that and help someone else get better with it. So not being able to teach someone because you weren't the best would eliminate the need for that position coach.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

If there's a vet who could be brought in to truly mentor the future QB of the franchise I would at a "healthy" Chad Pennington first. When healthy he's the best QB on the market this year. I have no idea what his plans are.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

last i heard is that Pennington is supposed to go back to the NYJ to back up Sanchez....he would also be a good one if Sanchez's struggles get worse next year....

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[quote=tryfuhl;665748]You have QB coaches out there that didn't play the position as well as the guy that they're teaching, but they still know the proper mechanics and fundamentals. JC could be a good personal mentor and probably knows his position very well, it's just can he take that and help someone else get better with it. So not being able to teach someone because you weren't the best would eliminate the need for that position coach.[/quote]

True but currently JC isnt a coach, he's a QB, and the new QB is the guy trying to take his job. Its a totally different dynamic.

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

irish, just a week ago you said this:

[url]http://www.thewarpath.net/664393-post110.html[/url]

What changed your mind?

Re: ESPN: Clayton Expects Skins to Tender Campbell for a 1st and 3rd
 

[QUOTE="tryfuhl"]You have QB coaches out there that didn't play the position as well as the guy that they're teaching, but they still know the proper mechanics and fundamentals. JC could be a good personal mentor and probably knows his position very well, it's just can he take that and help someone else get better with it. So not being able to teach someone because you weren't the best would eliminate the need for that position coach.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Playing the game and teaching it are two completely different things.

When I think of a mentor I'm thinking of a guy that takes someone under his wing and helps the young guy learn how to prepare themselves for the next level. Whether it's in the classroom, the weight room, or a 2nd set of eyes on the field.