Commanders Post at The Warpath - Arizona's New Immigration Law

Commanders Post at The Warpath (http://www.thewarpath.net/forum.php)

- Debating with the enemy (http://www.thewarpath.net/forumdisplay.php?f=75)

- - Arizona's New Immigration Law (http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?t=36388)

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=joethiesmanfan;698022]Thank you, and this immirgration bill grows government and gives police more powers. Police/millitary contractors are all big goverment getting bigger. Just called by a different name. In this country we don't single out groups. Trying to criminalize an ethnic group is reprehensible. Everyone wants to avoid liability. We want to hold them accountable for crossing the border. They will be only ones held accountable everyone else will say not my fault.[/quote]Again, pesky facts:

- The AZ immigration statute does not "grow government". It provides no funding sources and does not create new agencies.
- It only provides for enforcement of existing state of AZ & Federal law.
- This law does not criminalize an ethnic group, it only provides for enforcement against illegal activity.

Read the actual text of the statute.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=dmek25;698054]first, are you always so bitter?[/quote]

Actually I'm not bitter at all I just get ticked now and then with how people think its Ok to throw around our tax money. I work hard for my money and when I work 3 months of the year to pay taxes just to read some of the crap I see here ticks me a little. You call me bitter but you read right over their post and what they have said and don't see any thing that sounds bitter. Ok

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=Rainy Parade;697989]fair enough... but the "IF"s in this thread... and the fact that "smaller govt" (ie less/no regulation) is part of what let these clowns run amok semi-legally. i dont claim to know the ins/outs of bank fraud laws and credit default swaps and all that other toxic shit that brought on the economic collapse... and i bet there's not a simple "crime" on the books to be pointed to, but there was a tremendous transfer of wealth from us (the lower and middle class taxpayers) to them (the ultra rich elite) and when the whole thing blew up, our govt (us/taxpayers, etc) gave them another 700 million and counting...... and, as we know, it was Bush AND Obama, a "bipartisan" effort to hand these assholes hundreds of millions of dollars AFTER they'd robbed us all blind. so, it's just a bit odd to see complaints about "the amount of drain that our social welfare structure exerts on the whole economy" as if some poor bastard getting $482/month from the government is the big problem in this country.

another one ripped from the headlines would be the oil spill in the gulf. the Wall St Journal reported that the oil well didn't have a remote-controlled emergency "off switch." i guess no one wanted "big govt" to get involved with telling businesses how to operate so Dick Cheney's energy task force figured $500,000 switches were too expensive to force BP to buy/install. $500,000 is NOTHING to a big oil company... and how much of a drain on our economy will result from that spill?

i realize this is/was an immigration thread and some of you might say these are all separate topics, but my point is that "social welfare" is not near the top of the list of things draining our economy. this myth that poor minorities are handed everything and/or that we're all working our asses off (or posting on WP while at work) so these poor folks can live it up is a bit ridiculous.[/quote]
I guess nothing in this post sounds bitter

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=firstdown;698045]I'm held accountable each month when I have to send a fat check to the federal goverment and one to the state. You know you can sponsor a family and bring them here anytime you want so go ahead.[/quote]

Can I do that with Dominicans too?

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=Rainy Parade;698014]agree, they are all in it together. wallstreet owns the govt., the govt lets wallstreet rob us cuz wallstreet lobbyists give the politicians their cut, then the govt "bails out" wallstreet and they all keep robbing us. pretty sure most/all of us will agree on that.

and hopefully we all recognize that BOTH parties do this, albeit with different spin/packaging. but Bush was BIG GOVT. this didn't just magically start with Obama. the Military/Pentagon and defense contracting is HUGE govt. [B]this stuff dwarfs "social welfare" to the point that it's silly.[/B] funny we dont hear as much outrage over "corporate welfare."

of course both sides of our govt certainly prefer that we argue about mexicans, and blacks vs. whites, conservatives vs liberals, gay marriage, flag burning, etc etc....
and all this Red vs. Blue Dems vs Repubs is just coke/pepsi bullshit, the illusion of choice.[/quote]Good post, the only issue is that the "social welfare" stuff is what's bankrupting the country. The unfunded liabilities of SS, Medicare, and other social programs is what's pushing us to the brink of insolvency. We're spending more than we're taking in, it's basic math and it's unsustainable. Defense contracts can be terminiated and are only a portion of the defense budget. The biggest expediture is for manpower, and services to support the manpower.

Continuing to allowing millions of illegals into the country who will access, or evenually access, social services and vote for politicians who provide more gov't services and push us further towards European socialism is not what we need. Do you want to pay an additional 18% + tax on everything you buy....on top of your Fed and state taxes.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=firstdown;698043]Come on you liberals put your money where your mouth is. None of you will because you won't spend your money you want to spend my fucking money.[/quote]

first, you dont know me or what i spend my money on. conservatives "spend my fucking money" on wasteful military spending that i dont agree with. they line the pockets of Halliburton....

do you think you are the only one who pays taxes and/or disagrees with how much of it is spent? get the fuck over yourself acting like us "liberals" are somehow "stealing" your money and "giving" it to the poor. funny how you're all pissed off claiming that "we" wont spend our money and that the illegals use services w/o paying taxes and yet you're sitting there saying YOU dont want to pay taxes either. you know, you have the option of leaving as well...

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=Rainy Parade;698102]first, you dont know me or what i spend my money on. conservatives "spend my fucking money" on wasteful military spending that i dont agree with. they line the pockets of Halliburton....

do you think you are the only one who pays taxes and/or disagrees with how much of it is spent? get the fuck over yourself acting like us "liberals" are somehow "stealing" your money and "giving" it to the poor. funny how you're all pissed off claiming that "we" wont spend our money and that the illegals use services w/o paying taxes and yet you're sitting there saying YOU dont want to pay taxes either. you know, you have the option of leaving as well...[/quote]

Dude, since you are new I will throw you a bone.

Firstdown is here for comic relief at best. Many times over his ideas and view points have been proven wrong on this web site. Take every thing he says with a grain of salt. Others will rush to his side to defend him but they too are just as confused.

It is like pissing into the wind when talking about politics on this site. Basically a waste of time and you go home wet and unhappy.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=Rainy Parade;698102]first, you dont know me or what i spend my money on. conservatives "spend my fucking money" on wasteful military spending that i dont agree with. they line the pockets of Halliburton....
[/quote]

:doh:

There we go...the Halliburton argument. :Flush:

Do you realize Clinton gave contracts to them also, or that they are one of 2 or 3 companies in the world that do certain types of work that was required in Iraq?

Of course not...the facts will make you regret your t-shirt and bumper sticker purchases. :laughing2

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=mredskins;698105]Dude, since you are new I will throw you a bone.

Firstdown is here for comic relief at best. Many times over his ideas and view points have been proven wrong on this web site. Take every thing he says with a grain of salt. Others will rush to his side to defend him but they too are just as confused.

It is like pissing into the wind when talking about politics on this site. Basically a waste of time and you go home wet and unhappy.[/quote]

ha, yes, i realize that (in general, about political arguments on the internet... this aint my first rodeo).

you're right, i shouldn't waste my time, as none of us are gonna magically change anyone's mind.

wait, but where's the comedy?

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=Rainy Parade;698110]ha, yes, i realize that (in general, about political arguments on the internet... this aint my first rodeo).

you're right, i shouldn't waste my time, as none of us are gonna magically change anyone's mind.

wait, but where's the comedy?[/quote]

On any other subject firstdown and crowd are very enjoyable folks, I too sometimes get dragged into these threads out of boredom at work.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=Buster;698109]:doh:

There we go...the Halliburton argument. :Flush:

Do you realize Clinton gave contracts to them also, or that they are one of 2 or 3 companies in the world that do certain types of work that was required in Iraq?

Of course not...the facts will make you regret your t-shirt and bumper sticker purchases. :laughing2[/quote]

yes, i DO know all of that. as i've said, govt waste and excessive military spending is a problem no matter who is in the whitehouse. but i appreciate your condescending attempt at humor with the t-shirt talk. good effort.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;698065]Good post, the only issue is that the "social welfare" stuff is what's bankrupting the country. The unfunded liabilities of SS, Medicare, and other social programs is what's pushing us to the brink of insolvency. We're spending more than we're taking in, it's basic math and it's unsustainable. Defense contracts can be terminiated and are only a portion of the defense budget. The biggest expediture is for manpower, and services to support the manpower.

Continuing to allowing millions of illegals into the country who will access, or evenually access, social services and vote for politicians who provide more gov't services and push us further towards European socialism is not what we need. Do you want to pay an additional 18% + tax on everything you buy....on top of your Fed and state taxes.[/quote]

Once again they try to frame the argument that this is their money. Free handouts. Etc. Etc. Yuo speak as if you are basing your arguments on facts. It's only your opinion and tired philosophy of freee marketism which has become a religion. Free marketism failed miserably. Bush had to ask for 786 billion dollars. Our economy is a system there are no islands of money. I'm pissed 10 generations of free labor and these idiots have squandered it already.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;698065] vote for politicians who provide more gov't services and push us further towards European socialism is not what we need. [/quote]

oooh, the Socialist card!! nice.
yea, i'm not an expert on European socio-political economics, and i didn't even stay in a Holiday Inn last night.... but i'm pretty sure that handing hundreds of billions of dollars to the rich elite on Wall Street is NOT socialism.

but since all the poor bastards sucking up the govt cheese on your dime have it so good, i'm sure you'd love to switch places with them.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=Rainy Parade;698102]first, you dont know me or what i spend my money on. conservatives "spend my fucking money" on wasteful military spending that i dont agree with. they line the pockets of Halliburton....

do you think you are the only one who pays taxes and/or disagrees with how much of it is spent? get the fuck over yourself acting like us "liberals" are somehow "stealing" your money and "giving" it to the poor. funny how you're all pissed off claiming that "we" wont spend our money and that the illegals use services w/o paying taxes and yet you're sitting there saying YOU dont want to pay taxes either. [B]you know, you have the option of leaving as well...[/B][/quote]

Actually, we don't. Take a look at the immigration laws in just about any country you would want to live in (Western Europe...) and you'll see that "leaving" is not much of an option, save for those with corporate sponsorship. Also, as someone who has spent a significant portion of my adult life living overseas, it's far from a bad option. I know it's a little off topic and not specific to your post, but it always gets me when people act as if living outside of the US is akin to residing in a leper colony...

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=BleedBurgundy;698131]Actually, we don't. Take a look at the immigration laws in just about any country you would want to live in (Western Europe...) and you'll see that "leaving" is not much of an option, save for those with corporate sponsorship. Also, as someone who has spent a significant portion of my adult life living overseas, it's far from a bad option. I know it's a little off topic and not specific to your post, but it always gets me when people act as if living outside of the US is akin to residing in a leper colony...[/quote]

actually, i was kinda kidding. a play on if/when anyone complained under Bush the phoney cowboys and dittoheads will tell people to "love it or leave it" or "STFU and love your country" or "if you dont like it you can leave."

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=Rainy Parade;698124]oooh, the Socialist card!! nice.
yea, i'm not an expert on European socio-political economics, and i didn't even stay in a Holiday Inn last night.... but i'm pretty sure that handing hundreds of billions of dollars to the rich elite on Wall Street is NOT socialism.

but since all the poor bastards sucking up the govt cheese on your dime have it so good, i'm sure you'd love to switch places with them.[/quote]
The Wall Street banks are all paying back the TARP funds to get out from gov't oversight placed on them for taking the funds.....so the Fed didn't just "hand" billions to the banks without strict conditions and oversights.

[URL="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704869304574595600479204352.html"]Citi, Wells Fargo to Repay Bailout Funds - WSJ.com[/URL]

I don't care to have my family's future dependent on a gov't program or have my needs met by a gov't provided social service. I've seen firsthand how the private sector performs vs. gov't. But your wisecrack still doesn't address the facts I stated in my previous post or provide any solutions.....no surprise though.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=joethiesmanfan;698116]Once again they try to frame the argument that this is their money. Free handouts. Etc. Etc. Yuo speak as if you are basing your arguments on facts. It's only your opinion and tired philosophy of freee marketism which has become a religion. [B]Free marketism failed miserably. [/B]Bush had to ask for 786 billion dollars. Our economy is a system there are no islands of money. I'm pissed 10 generations of free labor and these idiots have squandered it already.[/quote]

Problem is, we don't really have a 'free market'. We haven't had anything of the sort for quite awhile. Government-dictated wages in the form of minimum wage laws and the Federal Reserve dictating interest rates are examples of just the opposite. Now we're hearing the idea promoted of 'maximum wages' -- the President just recently [URL="http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/04/28/obama_to_wall_street_i_do_think_at_a_certain_point_youve_made_enough_money.html"]said[/URL] that some of us have made "enough money."

So as you can see, it's not entirely accurate to say that "free marketism failed miserably" when we have really tried it, and in fact, things appear to be moving in precisely the other direction.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=Beemnseven;698155]Problem is, we don't really have a 'free market'. We haven't had anything of the sort for quite awhile. Government-dictated wages in the form of minimum wage laws and the Federal Reserve dictating interest rates are examples of just the opposite. Now we're hearing the idea promoted of 'maximum wages' -- the President just recently [URL="http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/04/28/obama_to_wall_street_i_do_think_at_a_certain_point_youve_made_enough_money.html"]said[/URL] that some of us have made "enough money."

So as you can see, it's not entirely accurate to say that "free marketism failed miserably" when we have really tried it, and in fact, things appear to be moving in precisely the other direction.[/quote]

Look at it from this angle, I see your angle. America is in decline because of socialist programs. Well I have a serious alternative view. Some say the dependence on finance as an industry is a sign of decline. The British and Dutch empires who I think are good examples evolved to this state before the big diet. Germany produces cars, the rest of Europe produces bazaar trinkets and war machines. when war is not on the table europeans don't eat. It does not matter if they are socialist or capialtist or communist. Greece produces nothing, Spain produces nothing, Portugal produces nothing. There is a reason Euope was the poorest continent before colonization. This is the reason most of europe is returning to their natural state. Goldman Sachs from what I've read don't produce products or create jobs, they set people up to fall and then laugh all the way to teh bank. It's not illegal but it is a sign of Amercian decadence. America is different we produce we have production capacity they could only dream of. Europeans need to get a job. WWIII is about to start and it has nothing to do with religion. Europeans have to eat. Got my popcorn ready. See the US is realigning our allegiances. We need beneficial partners wiht strong productive populations. Europe lacks the diversity to compete. I say stop all European immigration. Atleast latin America is worth more than a hill of beans and few tactical nukes. It's ironic how most latin american currenices are worth more than euros.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=joethiesmanfan;698165]Look at it from this angle, I see your angle. America is in decline because of socialist programs. Well I have a serious alternative view. Some say the dependence on finance as an industry is a sign of decline. The British and Dutch empires who I think are good examples evolved to this state before the big diet. Germany produces cars, the rest of Europe produces bazaar trinkets and war machines. when war is not on the table europeans don't eat. It does not matter if they are socialist or capialtist or communist. Greece produces nothing, Spain produces nothing, Portugal produces nothing. There is a reason Euope was the poorest continent before colonization. This is the reason most of europe is returning to their natural state. Goldman Sachs from what I've read don't produce products or create jobs, they set people up to fall and then laugh all the way to teh bank. It's not illegal but it is a sign of Amercian decadence. America is different we produce we have production capacity they could only dream of. Europeans need to get a job. WWIII is about to start and it has nothing to do with religion. Europeans have to eat. Got my popcorn ready. See the US is realigning our allegiances. We need beneficial partners wiht strong productive populations. Europe lacks the diversity to compete. I say stop all European immigration. Atleast latin America is worth more than a hill of beans and few tactical nukes. It's ironic how most latin american currenices are worth more than euros.[/quote]

Do you really believe any of this?

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;698161]Beem brings up another great point, speaking of gov't invention, the mortgage securities and housing crash were the catalyst to knock our economy down. Many of the mortgages that were made, were done so under gov't pressure/programs. These risky mortgages wouldn't normally have been taken on by the banks with normal lending/qualification criteria in place.[/quote]

That my friend is the result of democracy. There are alot more middle income and poor people than rich. So when they elect representatives, they are going to look out for the people who elect them.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=CRedskinsRule;698167]Do you really believe any of this?[/quote]

Have you studied the decline of the British and Dutch empires?

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=CRedskinsRule;698167]Do you really believe any of this?[/quote]
[URL="http://www.makeuseof.com/tech-fun/beware-of-the-internet-trolls/"]Internet Bridge Troll | MakeUseOf.com[/URL]

[URL="http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Internet_troll_personality_disorder"]Internet troll personality disorder - Encyclopedia Dramatica[/URL]

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=joethiesmanfan;698168]That my friend is the result of democracy. There are alot more middle income and poor people than rich. So when they elect representatives, they are going to look out for the people who elect them.[/quote]So you believe that the poor and middle class, by virtue of having greater voting numbers, have the right to have their reps enact legislation to take private wealth/property from the "rich"?

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

Yes on the British, no on the Dutch. However, your whole statement of Europe (generally) being a non-productive continent is ridiculous. I just compared the exchange rates of the Mexican, Chilean Peso, and Brazil Real to both the Euro and the US $, and I don't see the correlation that says they are worth more than either the $ or Euro. So other than a general statement as to the cause of the decline of British and Dutch Empires, the rest of your soliloquy is really not grounded in any type of reality.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29"]top 12 GDP(in Millions of USD [/URL]
1 United States 14,256,275
2 Japan 5,068,059
3 People's Republic of China 4,908,9822
4 Germany 3,352,742
5 France 2,675,951
6 United Kingdom 2,183,607
7 Italy 2,118,264
8 Brazil 1,574,039
9 Spain 1,464,040
10 Canada 1,336,427
11 India 1,235,975
12 Russia 1,229,227

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;698175][URL="http://www.makeuseof.com/tech-fun/beware-of-the-internet-trolls/"]Internet Bridge Troll | MakeUseOf.com[/URL]

[URL="http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Internet_troll_personality_disorder"]Internet troll personality disorder - Encyclopedia Dramatica[/URL][/quote]

:rofl: outstanding

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;698177]So you believe that the poor and middle class, by virtue of having greater voting numbers, have the right to have their reps enact legislation to take private wealth/property from the "rich"?[/quote]

Where they do that at?

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=mredskins;698105]Dude, since you are new I will throw you a bone.

Firstdown is here for comic relief at best. Many times over his ideas and view points have been proven wrong on this web site. Take every thing he says with a grain of salt. Others will rush to his side to defend him but they too are just as confused.

It is like pissing into the wind when talking about politics on this site. Basically a waste of time and you go home wet and unhappy.[/quote]

Funny you make this post but don't post any of the stuff I have post that is always proven wrong. I'm sure you can find some post because of all the post I have made but your the king of shit here.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=firstdown;698417]Funny you make this post but don't post any of the stuff I have post that is always proven wrong. I'm sure you can find some post because of all the post I have made but your the king of shit here.[/quote]

Good Morning! Check out the sleeping thread more people loving you in that thread.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=mredskins;698111]On any other subject firstdown and crowd are very enjoyable folks, I too sometimes get dragged into these threads out of boredom at work.[/quote]

First guess you miss this post? Thanks for the personal attack (king of shit) this morning. I might just start lumping you in TTE data file.

What is getting really old fast on this site is there is a handful of folks on here that take every parking lot thread and turn it into a political discussion. Yes I might not agree with everything everyone has to say but I don't need to be en-dated with a billion "facts" about the Regan years every time someone opens a new thread in the parking lot.

Take GMScud for the most part I would say we don't see eye to eye on political matters but he presents his opinion in real terms, discussing the issue and his feelings and [I][B]listening [/B][/I]to others opinion. The handful I am speaking of comes in here and rattle off all this stupid post that are like 1000 words and they refuse to listen to anyone's opinion, they just keep [I][B]post vomiting[/B][/I] their "pesky facts".

Seriously how many thousand word post do you have to have on the Regan campaign before you realize no one is listening to you anymore?

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=SmootSmack;698424]Are you missing some words here?[/quote]

Well Mredskin is complaining about long post so I was trying to cut down some.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=CRedskinsRule;698179]Yes on the British, no on the Dutch. However, your whole statement of Europe (generally) being a non-productive continent is ridiculous. I just compared the exchange rates of the Mexican, Chilean Peso, and Brazil Real to both the Euro and the US $, and I don't see the correlation that says they are worth more than either the $ or Euro. So other than a general statement as to the cause of the decline of British and Dutch Empires, the rest of your soliloquy is really not grounded in any type of reality.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29"]top 12 GDP(in Millions of USD [/URL]
1 United States 14,256,275
2 Japan 5,068,059
3 People's Republic of China 4,908,9822
4 Germany 3,352,742
5 France 2,675,951
6 United Kingdom 2,183,607
7 Italy 2,118,264
8 Brazil 1,574,039
9 Spain 1,464,040
10 Canada 1,336,427
11 India 1,235,975
12 Russia 1,229,227[/quote]

Wow we are more than double our next closest competitor and this is not even counting the dope trade. Holy cow.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;698161]Beem brings up another great point, speaking of gov't invention, the mortgage securities and housing crash were the catalyst to knock our economy down. Many of the mortgages that were made, were done so under gov't pressure/programs. These risky mortgages wouldn't normally have been taken on by the banks with normal lending/qualification criteria in place.[/quote]

LOL...this post is full lies and not backed up by reality. The gov never ever told or foced the banks to give LIAR Loans.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=saden1;698490]LOL...this post is full lies and not backed up reality. The gov never ever told or foced the banks to give LIAR Loans.[/quote]

well, one small part of the housing boom/bust was certainly people getting into mortgages they might not have previously qualified for... BUT, there's been a lot exaggeration and mythology that it was "the minorities being given loans" that brought down our economy. uh, not quite. like i said, that was a small part of the housing problem (but plenty of whites got into loans they should have). but Tyrone's and Julio's mortgages aren't to blame for wallstreet peddling toxic shit like Credit Default Swaps.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[URL="http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/03/mexicos-illegals-laws-tougher-than-arizonas/"]Mexico's illegals laws tougher than Arizona's - Washington Times[/URL]

????Que?????

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

[quote=saden1;698490]LOL...this post is full lies and not backed up by reality. The gov never ever told or foced the banks to give LIAR Loans.[/quote]Wrong. from wiki

Government policies
Main article: [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/Government_policies_and_the_subprime_mortgage_crisis"][COLOR=#002bb8]Government policies and the subprime mortgage crisis[/COLOR][/URL]
[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/File:U.S._Home_Ownership_and_Subprime_Origination_Share.png"][COLOR=#002bb8][IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ef/U.S._Home_Ownership_and_Subprime_Origination_Share.png/220px-U.S._Home_Ownership_and_Subprime_Origination_Share.png[/IMG][/COLOR][/URL] [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/File:U.S._Home_Ownership_and_Subprime_Origination_Share.png"][IMG]http://bits.wikimedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png[/IMG][/URL]
U.S. Subprime lending expanded dramatically 2004-2006

Both government failed regulation and deregulation contributed to the crisis. In testimony before Congress both the [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/Securities_and_Exchange_Commission"][COLOR=#002bb8]Securities and Exchange Commission[/COLOR][/URL] (SEC) and [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/Alan_Greenspan"][COLOR=#002bb8]Alan Greenspan[/COLOR][/URL] conceded failure in allowing the self-regulation of investment banks.[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-102"][COLOR=#002bb8][103][/COLOR][/URL][URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-103"][COLOR=#002bb8][104][/COLOR][/URL]
Increasing home ownership has been the goal of several presidents including Roosevelt, Reagan, Clinton and G.W.Bush. In 1982, Congress passed the Alternative Mortgage Transactions Parity Act (AMTPA), which allowed non-federally chartered housing creditors to write adjustable-rate mortgages. Among the new mortgage loan types created and gaining in popularity in the early 1980s were adjustable-rate, option adjustable-rate, balloon-payment and interest-only mortgages. These new loan types are credited with replacing the long standing practice of banks making conventional fixed-rate, amortizing mortgages. Among the criticisms of banking industry deregulation that contributed to the [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis"][COLOR=#002bb8]savings and loan crisis[/COLOR][/URL] was that Congress failed to enact regulations that would have prevented exploitations by these loan types. Subsequent widespread abuses of predatory lending occurred with the use of adjustable-rate mortgages.[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-DODD-1"][COLOR=#002bb8][2][/COLOR][/URL][URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-The_downturn_in_facts_and_figures-36"][COLOR=#002bb8][37][/COLOR][/URL][URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-104"][COLOR=#002bb8][105][/COLOR][/URL] Approximately 80% of subprime mortgages are adjustable-rate mortgages.[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-DODD-1"][COLOR=#002bb8][2][/COLOR][/URL]
In 1995, the GSEs like Fannie Mae began receiving government tax incentives for purchasing mortgage backed securities which included loans to low income borrowers. Thus began the involvement of the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac with the subprime market.[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-Leonnig-105"][COLOR=#002bb8][106][/COLOR][/URL] In 1996, [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/HUD_(housing)"][COLOR=#002bb8]HUD[/COLOR][/URL] set a goal for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that at least 42% of the mortgages they purchase be issued to borrowers whose household income was below the median in their area. This target was increased to 50% in 2000 and 52% in 2005.[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-106"][COLOR=#002bb8][107][/COLOR][/URL] From 2002 to 2006, as the U.S. subprime market grew 292% over previous years, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac combined purchases of subprime securities rose from $38 billion to around $175 billion per year before dropping to $90 billion per year, which included $350 billion of [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/Alt-A"][COLOR=#002bb8]Alt-A[/COLOR][/URL] securities. Fannie Mae had stopped buying Alt-A products in the early 1990s because of the high risk of default. [B]By 2008, the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac owned, either directly or through mortgage pools they sponsored, $5.1 trillion in residential mortgages, about half the total U.S. mortgage market.[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-107"][COLOR=#002bb8][108][/COLOR][/URL][/B] The GSE have always been highly leveraged, their net worth as of 30 June 2008 being a mere US$114 billion.[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-108"][COLOR=#002bb8][109][/COLOR][/URL] When concerns arose in September 2008 regarding the ability of the GSE to make good on their guarantees, the Federal government was forced to place the companies into a conservatorship, effectively nationalizing them at the taxpayers' expense.[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-publications1-109"][COLOR=#002bb8][110][/COLOR][/URL][URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-110"][COLOR=#002bb8][111][/COLOR][/URL]
The [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/Glass-Steagall_Act"][COLOR=#002bb8]Glass-Steagall Act[/COLOR][/URL] was enacted after the [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/Great_Depression"][COLOR=#002bb8]Great Depression[/COLOR][/URL]. It separated [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/Commercial_bank"][COLOR=#002bb8]commercial banks[/COLOR][/URL] and [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/Investment_bank"][COLOR=#002bb8]investment banks[/COLOR][/URL], in part to avoid potential conflicts of interest between the lending activities of the former and rating activities of the latter. Economist [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/Joseph_Stiglitz"][COLOR=#002bb8]Joseph Stiglitz[/COLOR][/URL] criticized the repeal of the Act. He called its repeal the "culmination of a $300 million lobbying effort by the banking and financial services industries...spearheaded in Congress by Senator [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/Phil_Gramm"][COLOR=#002bb8]Phil Gramm[/COLOR][/URL]." He believes it contributed to this crisis because the risk-taking culture of investment banking dominated the more conservative commercial banking culture, leading to increased levels of risk-taking and leverage during the boom period.[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-vanityfair.com-111"][COLOR=#002bb8][112][/COLOR][/URL] The Federal government bailout of [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/Savings_and_loan_association"][COLOR=#002bb8]thrifts[/COLOR][/URL] during the [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/Savings_and_loan_crisis"][COLOR=#002bb8]savings and loan crisis[/COLOR][/URL] of the late 1980s may have encouraged other lenders to make risky loans, and thus given rise to [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/Moral_hazard"][COLOR=#002bb8]moral hazard[/COLOR][/URL].[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-brown1-37"][COLOR=#002bb8][38][/COLOR][/URL][URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-112"][COLOR=#002bb8][113][/COLOR][/URL]
Conservatives and Libertarians have also debated the possible effects of the [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act"][COLOR=#002bb8]Community Reinvestment Act[/COLOR][/URL] (CRA), with detractors claiming that the Act encouraged lending to uncreditworthy borrowers,[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-113"][COLOR=#002bb8][114][/COLOR][/URL][URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-114"][COLOR=#002bb8][115][/COLOR][/URL][URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-DiLorenzo-115"][COLOR=#002bb8][116][/COLOR][/URL][URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-116"][COLOR=#002bb8][117][/COLOR][/URL] and defenders claiming a thirty year history of lending without increased risk.[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-117"][COLOR=#002bb8][118][/COLOR][/URL][URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-118"][COLOR=#002bb8][119][/COLOR][/URL][URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-119"][COLOR=#002bb8][120][/COLOR][/URL][URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-Ellis-120"][COLOR=#002bb8][121][/COLOR][/URL] Detractors also claim that amendments to the CRA in the mid-1990s, raised the amount of mortgages issued to otherwise unqualified low-income borrowers, and allowed the securitization of CRA-regulated mortgages, even though a fair number of them were subprime.[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-121"][COLOR=#002bb8][122][/COLOR][/URL][URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-122"][COLOR=#002bb8][123][/COLOR][/URL]
Both Federal Reserve Governor [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/Randall_Kroszner"][COLOR=#002bb8]Randall Kroszner[/COLOR][/URL] and [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/FDIC"][COLOR=#002bb8]FDIC[/COLOR][/URL] Chairman Sheila Bair have stated their belief that the CRA was not to blame for the crisis.[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-123"][COLOR=#002bb8][124][/COLOR][/URL]
[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-124"][COLOR=#002bb8][125][/COLOR][/URL]
Economist [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/Paul_Krugman"][COLOR=#002bb8]Paul Krugman[/COLOR][/URL] argued in January 2010 that the simultaneous growth of the residential and commercial real estate pricing bubbles undermines the case made by those who argue that [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/Fannie_Mae"][COLOR=#002bb8]Fannie Mae[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/wiki/Freddie_Mac"][COLOR=#002bb8]Freddie Mac[/COLOR][/URL], CRA or predatory lending were primary causes of the crisis. In other words, bubbles in both markets developed even though only the residential market was affected by these potential causes.[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/#cite_note-125"][COLOR=#002bb8][126][/COLOR][/URL]

I never said "forced", but there were definitely programs/pressure. I never said this was the "single" reason for the economic crash. I also never blamed a specific politcal party or mentioned race.

Re: Arizona's New Immigration Law

SS33, read your post, read mine and then read the first paragraph of the article you posted.

[quote]Government deregulation and failed regulation of the commercial and investment banking industries were important contributors to the subprime mortgage crisis. These included allowing the self-regulation of Wall Street's investment banks and the failed regulation of Wall Street rating agencies, which were responsible for incorrectly rating some $3.2 trillion dollars of subprime mortgage-backed securities.[1][2] The introduction of new mortgage products by the Alternative Mortgage Transactions Parity Act (AMTPA), passed by Congress in 1982, ended the long standing practice of limiting banks to making conventional fixed-rate mortgages.[3] Approximately 80% of U.S. mortgages issued in recent years to subprime borrowers were adjustable-rate mortgages.[4] Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac also carry blame. The two GSEs purchased over $500 billion dollars in high risk Alt-A mortgage products, which they had previously classified as too risky for purchase in the 1990s.[5] Both Alan Greenspan and the SEC testified before Congress that the shadow banking system was not effectively regulated, even though it had become nearly as important as the regulated depository banking system in providing credit.[/quote]

You can bash the gov for the lack of regulation and oversight and I won't defend that but I can not accept "pressure/programs" line. Never!