Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

[quote=12thMan;789907]I won't go there on the vacation thing, because clearly you're just being silly. Or at least I hope so.

The current mission is outlined by the UN resolution to basically demobilize Quaddafi's military capibility and protect the civilians and rebel forces. This is a coalition effort led by France and Great Britian, so the U.S role, as I understand it, is pretty limited in scope right now. [B]President Obama never said that Khadffy was or wasn't a target. His language is and should be consistent with the UN resolution. That's not weak, that's smart. [/B]

In the coming days, however, he'll have to brief congressional leaders, as he should, on how long and how much we're committed to the no fly zone and what's the end game. With the exception of a few liberal Dems, no one is questioning the 'why' or whether the president is projecting adequate leadership. Besides, how could a guy that just took out your compound where you live possibly be mistaken for weak? It's silly.

But the real reason I keep weighing in is to see how many different ways I can misspell Gadhafy's name.[/quote]

I have heard Obama say that regime change is up to the Libyan people. I take that to mean that the strategy of the coalition is to create the conditions under which a revolt might be successful and then leave it up to Libyans themselves to depose Qaddafy. If so, it is not a bad strategy, in that it looks out for humanitarian issues but it doesn't lead to the inflamed tempers which would result from US ground troops and a US targeted killing.

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

[quote=Lotus;789916]I have heard Obama say that regime change is up to the Libyan people. I take that to mean that the strategy of the coalition is to create the conditions under which a revolt might be successful and then leave it up to Libyans themselves to depose Qaddafy. If so, it is not a bad strategy, in that it looks out for humanitarian issues but it doesn't lead to the inflamed tempers which would result from US ground troops and a US targeted killing.[/quote]

Exactly. And I like how you spelled Q'uadaffi's name.

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

March is almost over! Where is my god damn government shutdown? Where is our revolution?

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

[quote=12thMan;789917]Exactly. And I like how you spelled Q'uadaffi's name.[/quote]

I've just seen it that way in intelligent articles. And I try to stick to it consistently. I can't say it is right, though. Maybe we should just call him "Big Mo."

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

[quote=Lotus;789923]I've just seen it that way in intelligent articles. And I try to stick to it consistently. I can't say it is right, though. Maybe we should just call him "Big Mo."[/quote]

I like "No Mo" better.

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

Its a quagmire!

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I think its Kadafee.

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I just read that Obama gave Haliburton a no bid contract to build new missiles.

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

Quad Offee tried to kill Obama's dad!
Pay back time!

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;790004]Quad Offee tried to kill Obama's dad!
Pay back time![/quote]

Obama is trying to now kill Kadafee because Kadafee located his dad and by locating his dad he knows real place Obama was born.

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/22/libya.robertson.report/index.html?hpt=C2#]CNN correspondent rejects Fox report on human shields - CNN.com[/url]

Fair and balanced

[QUOTE=firstdown;790015]Obama is trying to now kill Kadafee because Kadafee located his dad and by locating his dad he knows real place Obama was born.[/QUOTE]

Wow, facepalm. I cannot believe some people in this country are that delusional.

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[quote=hooskins;790041]Wow, facepalm. I cannot believe some people in this country are that delusional.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure there was a ton of sarcasm involved there.

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[quote=Alvin Walton;790043]I'm pretty sure there was a ton of sarcasm involved there.[/quote]

Definitely

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[quote=hooskins;790041]Wow, facepalm. I cannot believe some people in this country are that delusional.[/quote]

fd has a hard time contributing something of value to this conversation. I've chosen to ignore him until he has something constructive to say.

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[quote=Lotus;790057]fd has a hard time contributing something of value to this conversation. I've chosen to ignore him until he has something constructive to say.[/quote]

You mean that calling this an illegal war is not contributing anything? His own party is saying the same thing.

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

Even Obama said it himself in 2007

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3G_7gpeJQ8&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Rep. Kucinich: Only Congress Has the Power to Take this Nation into War[/ame]

pwned!

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

Oh come on AW your not going to hold them to the same standards that they used. This actually pretty funny except for the fact that people are dying. Hopefully they are bad people but we know innocent people will also die. What the left has bitched about for so long is what their man is now doing and they don't really know how to react.

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I'm sure its just a matter of a few days until we see protest like these going again.

[CENTER][IMG]http://www.ccmep.org/2002_articles/Iraq/031905_sanfran.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

This whole dust up about the war being illegal or legal is nothing more than a few members of Congress not feeling the love from Obama. Truth is, most of them are glad the president didn't "consult" with them as they don't want to be in a pickle come election time for having approved yet another war with an uncertain outcome. I promise you if this thing blows over sooner rather than later and Khadaffy is eventually removed no one will really care and Obama, fairly or not, will look like a hero.

As far as precedent goes, and knowing Obama's style, I'm sure he studied history, among other things, to ensure he was in line with his predecessors. In 1986 Ronald Wilson Reagan bombed this very same country and even took out Khaddfy's home, without the powers of Congress backing him. Similiar ops in Bosnia and Haiti have also occured.

I just hope --really hope-- we can get out of there with no casualties.

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

The President does not need Congressional approval for peace-keeping operations, which is what the Libya action is. The President does need Congressional approval to go to war. There is a difference.

Further, the action in Libya was mandated by the UN, rather than being in violation of UN standards like some other American military actions.

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

first you believe and say ridiculous stuff all the time. Hard to tell when you are joking.

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

[quote=Lotus;790126]The President does not need Congressional approval for peace-keeping operations, which is what the Libya action is. The President does need Congressional approval to go to war. There is a difference.

Further, the action in Libya was mandated by the UN, rather than being in violation of UN standards like some other American military actions.[/quote]

The UN does not have the power to give our president the OK to go to war. Please read your constitution. This is not a piece keeping mission this is a drooping bombs on a sovereign nation which IS THE SAME declaring war. Don you think Obama would do this if it was happening in China? No. Why? Because they can strike back and Lybia can't.

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

[quote=hooskins;790131]first you believe and say ridiculous stuff all the time. Hard to tell when you are joking.[/quote]
So what do I believe?

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[quote=firstdown;790151]The UN does not have the power to give our president the OK to go to war. Please read your constitution. This is not a piece keeping mission this is a drooping bombs on a sovereign nation which IS THE SAME declaring war. Don you think Obama would do this if it was happening in China? No. Why? Because they can strike back and Lybia can't.[/quote]

You are confusing what is legal in Constitutional law with what is legal under international law.

The Libya adventure is being critiqued in Congress in terms of the Constitution.

The Iraq fiasco was critiqued for being illegal in terms of international law.

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[quote=Lotus;790159]You are confusing what is legal in Constitutional law with what is legal under international law.

The Libya adventure is being critiqued in Congress in terms of the Constitution.

The Iraq fiasco was critiqued for being illegal in terms of international law.[/quote]

My first care is that the president follows the constitution which is what he was sworn into to office to do. Then after he meets those guides then we could talk internetional law.

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

What national law did he break?

He did not declare a war and the last time I checked he was Commander in Chief. He can send the military to perform operations anywhere he wants to. He just cannot declare war without congressional approval. He did nothing wrong. Bush got away with far more.

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Yeah, no laws were broken. Just a lot of politicking and postering from some old farts whose asses are on the line in 2012.

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[quote=Angry;790180]What national law did he break?

He did not declare a war and the last time I checked he was Commander in Chief. He can send the military to perform operations anywhere he wants to. He just cannot declare war without congressional approval. He did nothing wrong. Bush got away with far more.[/quote]

You have declared war when you drop bombs on another nation.

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

Peacekeeping mission?
:doh:

We're blowing up his tanks and his trucks and planes and troops and command centers so the rebels will be able to take over the country.
Thats not peacekeeping, that's asskicking.

It's almost like we are hired mercs for the rebels.

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

[quote=firstdown;790188]You have declared war when you drop bombs on another nation.[/quote]

False. A declaration of war, politically and legally, is different from a peace keeping mission. A declaration of war is a formal gesture which has not happened in terms of Libya.

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;790190]Peacekeeping mission?
:doh:

We're blowing up his tanks and his trucks and planes and troops and command centers so the rebels will be able to take over the country.
Thats not peacekeeping, that's asskicking.

It's almost like we are hired mercs for the rebels.[/quote]

I understand your perception. But it is called a peace keeping mission because without it Qaddafy would be slaughtering huge numbers of people.

Perhaps better than "peace keeping" we should call it "massacre inhibiting."

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

[quote=Lotus;790126]Further, the action in Libya was mandated by the UN, rather than being in violation of UN standards like some other American military actions.[/quote]I know Iraq keeps getting thrown around, but let's not forget Bush received authorization for use of force from Congress....with bi-partisan support before the first bomb dropped.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution"]Iraq Resolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/URL]

Between Congress and the UN giving support, I'd rather have Congressional support.

Pres. Obama did not request congressional authorization for this action in Libya (although he's not required to get one). He had UN Security Council authorization, but keep in mind 5 countries abstained from voting, two who could have nixed the authorization (China, Russia). Putin BTW has come out blasting the US since the no-fly zone was imposed.

I would've much rather seen countries from the Arab League and Europe handle this from day one. We could've provided some logistics or intel support, but they should've taken the lead.

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

[quote=Lotus;790192]Perhaps better than "peace keeping" we should call it "massacre inhibiting."[/quote]Couldn't part of what we did in Iraq count as "massacre inhibiting".

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saddam_Hussein's_Iraq]Human rights in Saddam Hussein's Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

A declaration of war is a formal declaration issued by a national government indicating that a state of war exists between that nation and another. For the United States, Article One, Section Eight of the Constitution says "Congress shall have power to ... declare War". The War Powers Resolution of 1973 (50 U.S.C. 1541–1548) was a United States Congress joint resolution providing that the President can send U.S. armed forces into action abroad only by authorization of Congress or if the United States is already under attack or serious threat. The War Powers Resolution requires the president to notify Congress within 48 hours of committing armed forces to military action and forbids armed forces from remaining for more than 60 days, with a further 30 day withdrawal period, without an authorization of the use of military force or a declaration of war. The resolution was passed by two-thirds of Congress, overriding a presidential veto.
With that said the United States has only declared war 5 times in it's entire history. Clinton set the precedent with Operation Desert Fox and his two successors have followed suit.

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

Obama has now fired more cruise missiles than all other Nobel Peace prize winners combined.

:laughing2

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Meanwhile in Yemen...

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[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;790195]I know Iraq keeps getting thrown around, but let's not forget Bush received authorization for use of force from Congress....with bi-partisan support before the first bomb dropped.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution"]Iraq Resolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/URL]

Between Congress and the UN giving support, I'd rather have Congressional support.

Pres. Obama did not request congressional authorization for this action in Libya (although he's not required to get one). He had UN Security Council authorization, but keep in mind 5 countries abstained from voting, two who could have nixed the authorization (China, Russia). Putin BTW has come out blasting the US since the no-fly zone was imposed.

I would've much rather seen countries from the Arab League and Europe handle this from day one. We could've provided some logistics or intel support, but they should've taken the lead.[/quote]

Good points. I just mentioned Iraq because someone else did.

I definitely agree with your argument about the Arab League and Europe. Hopefully it will work out that way in the long term: we make a lot of noise on the first day (can't change that part now) but then drift into the shadows in the weeks ahead.

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;790195]I know Iraq keeps getting thrown around, but let's not forget Bush received authorization for use of force from Congress....with bi-partisan support before the first bomb dropped.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution"]Iraq Resolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/URL]

Between Congress and the UN giving support, I'd rather have Congressional support.

Pres. Obama did not request congressional authorization for this action in Libya (although he's not required to get one). He had UN Security Council authorization, but keep in mind 5 countries abstained from voting, two who could have nixed the authorization (China, Russia). Putin BTW has come out blasting the US since the no-fly zone was imposed.

[B]I would've much rather seen countries from the Arab League and Europe handle this from day one. We could've provided some logistics or intel support, but they should've taken the lead[/B].[/quote]

Essentially this is what's taking place. France dropped the first bomb and while we are launching Tomahawks, we're also providing logistical supand intel support. I think Obama is very eager to hand this Op over to NATO and the Europeans and recede into the background.

The bottom line is this, had President Obama waited longer many on the right would have accused him of being "weak" and "dithering". Their favorite word lately. Congress would still be, at this very moment, deciding whether or not to launch, how much the cost, calling in Generals to testify. All sorts of BS drawing this out even longer. Had he gone in sooner it would have been a unilateral campaign drawing the ire of everyone, except for John McCain and Joe Lieberman. So I think he got it right based on the little Constitutional wiggle room he has as Commander-in-Chief.

Re: Updated Title: World Revolution 2011
 

[quote=12thMan;790208]Essentially this is what's taking place. France dropped the first bomb and while we are launching Tomahawks, we're also providing logistical supand intel support. I think Obama is very eager to hand this Op over to NATO and the Europeans and recede into the background.

The bottom line is this, [B]had President Obama waited longer many on the right would have accused him of being "weak" and "dithering".[/B] Their favorite word lately. Congress would still be, at this very moment, deciding whether or not to launch, how much the cost, calling in Generals to testify. All sorts of BS drawing this out even longer. Had he gone in sooner it would have been a unilateral campaign drawing the ire of everyone, except for John McCain and Joe Lieberman. So I think he got it right based on the little Constitutional wiggle room he has as Commander and Chief.[/quote]

Sarah the Impaler from Alaska accused Obama of just that just hours before the bombs started falling.