Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=The Goat;870369]Lots of information about Griffin there. Makes him sound much more like a project QB (at the pro level) than most comments would lead you to believe.[/quote]

Definitely exposes Griffin's downside. Of course, my biggest question of him was how quickly could he adjust to a pro style offense. The BIGGEST piece of info from that link is the fact that the DC reads the defenses and not RG III. In my personal opinion, what makes an NFL QB great is the fact that he's top notch at reading defenses. He doesn't have to have to necessarily have a huge arm or be able to run, but he must be able to read defenses and audible out of bad plays.

I do agree though, I think if you can develop RG III and develop his skills at reading defenses, you can have a championship caliber QB. BUT, I think that means drafting him with the knowledge that he's not going near the field his entire first season.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

Don't believe the hype. RG3 is worthy of a top 5 pick. And Barkley wants to be the first overall selection not by merit but, by avoiding his competition. He thinks he'll have a better chance next next year but, lame cheaters like him never win. I hope RG3 stock falls so the team doesn't have to deal away picks to get fresh blood at the QB position.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

Barkley's a cheater?

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

I wish they would've put up the stats for 3rd down conversion percentage rather than just saying Barkleywas better than RG3 in that department. Besides, how many other college QBs who ran a pro-style offense and still sucked in the pros? My favorite quote, " Griffin also exhibited deep accuracy uncommon for a spread quarterback in limited chances to show it". I'm hoping he falls into the Skins lap.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=skinsguy;870452]Definitely exposes Griffin's downside. Of course, my biggest question of him was how quickly could he adjust to a pro style offense. The BIGGEST piece of info from that link is the fact that the DC reads the defenses and not RG III. In my personal opinion, what makes an NFL QB great is the fact that he's top notch at reading defenses. He doesn't have to have to necessarily have a huge arm or be able to run, but he must be able to read defenses and audible out of bad plays.

I do agree though, I think if you can develop RG III and develop his skills at reading defenses, you can have a championship caliber QB. BUT, I think that means drafting him with the knowledge that he's not going near the field his entire first season.[/quote]

Good post...hard to disagree w/ your thinking here.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

I would think RG will learn fast as he is........Super Smart, right?

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=diehard;870453]Don't believe the hype. RG3 is worthy of a top 5 pick. And Barkley wants to be the first overall selection not by merit but, by avoiding his competition. He thinks he'll have a better chance next next year but, lame cheaters like him never win. I hope RG3 stock falls so the team doesn't have to deal away picks to get fresh blood at the QB position.[/quote]

I'm not believing the hype on either side of the argument to be honest. I think RG III is a gifted athlete. I think he's a very smart guy. And I find it hard to believe that he has absolutely no knowledge of reading defensive schemes. But, I do think he isn't going to be ready to start from day one. I think a lot of his fans are blinded by his athleticism. I wouldn't be so quick to slap the letter 'S' on his chest and give him a red cape. However, with time, I DO think RG III is intelligent enough to pick up things quickly and he could make a big difference in the NFL. Like the article said, he could be a championship caliber player.

I see Andrew Luck starting from day one. Can't really say the same for the other guys in the draft. Which probably makes the Sanchez thread all the more interesting.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

I have no idea why people keep making a big deal out of players coming out of a pro style offense. Sam Bradford didn't come out of a pro style offense and he was able to start right a way. Cam Newton didn't come out of a pro style offense and he's setting rookie passing records. Sanchez came out of a pro style offense and he sucks. Matt Leinart also come out of the same offense and had the privilege of sitting behind a future hall of fame qb for a few year and still wasn't able to adjust to the NFL. Players don't have hard time picking up the offense of defensive systems. That has never been proven to a true. They have a hard time adjusting to the speed of the game. There is no doubt in my mind that RG3 will have no problems picking up our offense and being ready to start day one.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=Landry44;870517]I have no idea why people keep making a big deal out of players coming out of a pro style offense. Sam Bradford didn't come out of a pro style offense and he was able to start right a way. Cam Newton didn't come out of a pro style offense and he's setting rookie passing records. Sanchez came out of a pro style offense and he sucks. Matt Leinart also come out of the same offense and had the privilege of sitting behind a future hall of fame qb for a few year and still wasn't able to adjust to the NFL. Players don't have hard time picking up the offense of defensive systems. That has never been proven to a true. They have a hard time adjusting to the speed of the game. There is no doubt in my mind that RG3 will have no problems picking up our offense and being ready to start day one.[/quote]

I commend your unwavering support for RG III. Honestly, I think whenever he decides to enter the NFL, if he does, he'll make some sort of impact. And yes, just because a quarterback runs a pro style offense in college doesn't necessarily mean he's going to transition into the NFL successfully, but it does help. My idea focuses more on the quarterback's ability to read defenses - coverages and schemes. If what is said is true about his coordinator reading the defensive schemes and signaling in the plays, then I believe that's a major drawback and one that would greatly limit a quarterback and his chances of starting from day one. So, in that respect, I'd have to respectfully disagree in saying RG III would start from day one.

I also have to say with you mentioning Cam Newton, we all know Carolina has tweaked their offense to tailor it around Newton's abilities and strengths. You're not going to get that out of Kyle Shanahan. He wants the right fit for HIS offense. I'm not sure if RG III is that guy or not. I definitely don't believe he is right out of the box. It would take time to develop RG III into that style of quarterback. Now, I have no doubt RG III couldn't be developed into that quarterback, but I just have doubts about him being as prepared as Andrew Luck.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;870457]Barkley's a cheater?[/quote]

Well I played him in Madden and he kept "nano-blitzing"

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=Landry44;870517]I have no idea why people keep making a big deal out of players coming out of a pro style offense. Sam Bradford didn't come out of a pro style offense and he was able to start right a way. Cam Newton didn't come out of a pro style offense and he's setting rookie passing records. Sanchez came out of a pro style offense and he sucks. Matt Leinart also come out of the same offense and had the privilege of sitting behind a future hall of fame qb for a few year and still wasn't able to adjust to the NFL. Players don't have hard time picking up the offense of defensive systems. That has never been proven to a true. They have a hard time adjusting to the speed of the game. There is no doubt in my mind that RG3 will have no problems picking up our offense and being ready to start day one.[/quote]

Thank you.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;870457]Barkley's a cheater?[/quote]

Yes, he's trying to set the deck. He'll be a 8th year senior in 2016 having a press conference talking about, "I've decided to come back another year..." just because other QBs are earning "his" limelight. Pu$$y.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=diehard;870554]Yes, he's trying to set the deck. He'll be a 8th year senior in 2016 having a press conference talking about, "I've decided to come back another year..." just because other QBs are earning "his" limelight. Pu$$y.[/quote]

Umm.....ok

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=EARTHQUAKE2689;870534]Well I played him in Madden and he kept "nano-blitzing"[/quote]

lmao...that was good for a chuck in the office today

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=skinsguy;870452]Definitely exposes Griffin's downside. Of course, my biggest question of him was how quickly could he adjust to a pro style offense. The BIGGEST piece of info from that link is the fact that the DC reads the defenses and not RG III. In my personal opinion, what makes an NFL QB great is the fact that he's top notch at reading defenses. He doesn't have to have to necessarily have a huge arm or be able to run, but he must be able to read defenses and audible out of bad plays.

I do agree though, I think if you can develop RG III and develop his skills at reading defenses, you can have a championship caliber QB. BUT, I think that means drafting him with the knowledge that he's not going near the field his entire first season.[/quote]

Who is going to Challenge him on the skins? He might not be better than grossman to start but he can't throw too many more INTS than him and the experience would be valuable. he doesn't seem like the type of guy who would lose confidence easily.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=SkinItup;870617]Who is going to Challenge him on the skins? He might not be better than grossman to start but he can't throw too many more INTS than him and the experience would be valuable. he doesn't seem like the type of guy who would lose confidence easily.[/quote]

You have to keep in mind that this is Mike Shanahan's third season coming up as coach of the Redskins. While I believe Snyder is more patient than what he was in the beginning of his tenure, he does not want to see another 5-11 or 6-10 season. While I believe we have seen the best that Rex Grossman has to offer, Grossman knows the offense and can run it pretty well. The only quarterback coming out of college who I'd feel comfortable starting from the start of the season would be Andrew Luck, and I don't think we're getting him. All the rest of the guys will more or less have to ride the pine for at least a few weeks. That being said, I believe the only way RG III shows early success ala Cam Newton, is if Kyle Shanahan is willing to re-work his offensive scheme around RG III's strengths and knowledge and go with that. But, we have all seen that KS wants someone who fits his system, not the other way around.

I'm thinking no matter who we draft, assuming we don't get someone like Mark Sanchez, Rex Grossman is probably going to start the season, and maybe gives way to the rookie by mid-season. Keep in mind, Grossman was out for about three games this year. While at least one of those he would have been out no matter what (pneumonia), there COULD have been possibly one or two games that the Redskins win, which would have put the Redskins in the thick of things for the NFC East title this season. So, as bad as Rex can be, we still had opportunities to have at least an 8-8 season, which would have been an improvement on last season, and on paper would have shown progress. Don't get me wrong, Rex Grossman is NOT the Redskins future, and I strongly support drafting a quarterback and going with young talent. But, as fickled as us Redskins fans are, no matter if Shanahan does that and even starts the kid day one, Redskins fans will be calling for his head come mid season when the skins are 2-6 with the rookie in.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=skinsguy;870680]You have to keep in mind that this is Mike Shanahan's third season coming up as coach of the Redskins. While I believe Snyder is more patient than what he was in the beginning of his tenure, he does not want to see another 5-11 or 6-10 season. While I believe we have seen the best that Rex Grossman has to offer, Grossman knows the offense and can run it pretty well. The only quarterback coming out of college who I'd feel comfortable starting from the start of the season would be Andrew Luck, and I don't think we're getting him. All the rest of the guys will more or less have to ride the pine for at least a few weeks. That being said, I believe the only way RG III shows early success ala Cam Newton, is if Kyle Shanahan is willing to re-work his offensive scheme around RG III's strengths and knowledge and go with that. But, we have all seen that KS wants someone who fits his system, not the other way around.

I'm thinking no matter who we draft, assuming we don't get someone like Mark Sanchez, Rex Grossman is probably going to start the season, and maybe gives way to the rookie by mid-season. Keep in mind, Grossman was out for about three games this year. While at least one of those he would have been out no matter what (pneumonia), there COULD have been possibly one or two games that the Redskins win, which would have put the Redskins in the thick of things for the NFC East title this season. So, as bad as Rex can be, we still had opportunities to have at least an 8-8 season, which would have been an improvement on last season, and on paper would have shown progress. Don't get me wrong, Rex Grossman is NOT the Redskins future, and I strongly support drafting a quarterback and going with young talent. But, as fickled as us Redskins fans are, no matter if Shanahan does that and even starts the kid day one, Redskins fans will be calling for his head come mid season when the skins are 2-6 with the rookie in.[/quote]

I think the idea a rookie must sit his first year and if he doesn't then the team will suck has kinda of gone by the way side. Many rookies have come out starting in the NFL of late with great success. It depends on their ability to shorten the learning curve and their supporting cast.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=mredskins;870685]I think the idea a rookie must sit his first year and if he doesn't then the team will suck has kinda of gone by the way side. Many rookies have come out starting in the NFL of late with great success.[B] It depends on their ability to shorten the learning curve and their supporting cast.[/B][/quote]

Your idea only makes sense IF your last sentence is true. Unfortunately, that's not the case across the board, and I'm not sure that would be true in Washington. I think it would be a moot point anyways, as I'm not sure Mike Shanahan would necessarily start a rookie quarterback unless he showed unbelievable skills from the start. And even though Rex Grossman is probably going to be as good as he has been this season, he's still going to be a tough man to bench simply because he knows the offense. It would be easier to bench him for another young veteran with playoff experience. Mike is not going to make that mistake again of benching Rex Grossman for an unproven commodity. Maybe even if the 'skins somehow got Andrew Luck, its not a given Shanahan starts him from day one.

I can't tell you the situations of other teams around the league, but this is the situation at Redskins park. You're going into Mike's third season on his five year contract. He has had two losing seasons so far. There is going to be pressure on him to show some legitimate progress in the win column this season. Not saying he's fired if season three is another sub .500, but I don't believe Dan Snyder wants this team to be losers throughout the whole rebuilding process. It's important the Redskins are no worse than 8-8 in year three and that's strictly my opinion, but I believe that to be true regardless who the quarterback is.

Just thinking realistically, I think it's a long shot for any rookie quarterback to be named the starter from week one. I would be very surprised, because that would be a bold move on Mike Shanahan's part. If that rookie is RG III, knowing what all we have learned about him - the good and bad - that's even more of a bold move. It's pretty much a common knowledge that Andrew Luck seems would get a free pass around the league if he's thrust into the starting role (not that I necessarily agree with it) but I think he's the only one.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[url=http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Robert-Griffin-III-vs-Andrew-Luck.html]Robert Griffin III vs. Andrew Luck | National Football Post[/url]

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;870780][url=http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Robert-Griffin-III-vs-Andrew-Luck.html]Robert Griffin III vs. Andrew Luck | National Football Post[/url][/quote]

That was a fun read. SmootSmack do you think the FO should do whatever it can to land one of the two (probably RGIII)?

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=The Goat;870789]That was a fun read. SmootSmack do you think the FO should do whatever it can to land one of the two (probably RGIII)?[/quote]

Um, I don't know. Not sure "whatever it can" entails exactly. I would say that I would make very strong attempts to get Luck and even Bradford. For RGIII, I'm not as inclined. I just don't think he's ready to take over yet. But if we draft him, I'd love to be proven wrong

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;870258]Foles has a much better deep ball than someone like Ryan Tannehill. A much better sense of timing, and I think he has a good concept for calculated risk. [B][I][U]He doesn't always elude the pressure well, but he has a good sense of when time is running out[/U][/I][/B]. Gets through progressions quickly (maybe too quickly). He'll throw it to his first read if he thinks he can get the ball in, whether or not it is his best throw. I like the way he throws the shorter passes with zip and authority (although Tannehill is also quite good at this).

There are things I don't like about Foles, but I don't know if I would agree on your criticisms. I think the padding the stats argument implies that he's trading in winning throws for easier ones, and I never got that sense that Foles is looking only for the easy completion. I think he's looking for the first completion, but he's not averse to extending the play to let someone get open. As for rainbows vs. ropes, I would just point at his completion percentage and [I]ascending[/I] YPA and suggest that it's probably not much of an issue.

I think he can both play within a scheme and create on his own, and that makes him a great fit for what we do. Some guys (Romo for example) struggle when you limit them to scheme throws and timing. Others (Grossman) really struggle to create outside the pocket. Foles can do both. And more importantly, he's accurate doing both.

Biggest knock on him: that he's not a good athlete at all. But he is a solid first round quarterback.[/quote]

So, you are saying that he is a better option than R.Tannehill because, as you put it, he cant really escape the sack, but he has a good sense of when its coming? So, his value is, that when he is getting crushed, he had a good sense he was about to get the shit knocked out of him?

I didnt know that was an admirable trait for a pro quarterback, but I guess its worth something??????

I wonder if Troy Aikman had that trait in my avatar pick..........it worked out great for him......lol

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;870791]Um, I don't know. Not sure "whatever it can" entails exactly. I would say that I would make very strong attempts to get Luck and even Bradford. For RGIII, I'm not as inclined. I just don't think he's ready to take over yet. But if we draft him, I'd love to be proven wrong[/quote]

How many picks (and in what round) do you think each is worth...Luck, Bradford, RGIII?

To me, it looks like this is the bottom line if Mike wants his QB of the future and start winning in his 3rd season...

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=skinsguy;870452]The BIGGEST piece of info from that link is the fact that the DC reads the defenses and not RG III. In my personal opinion, what makes an NFL QB great is the fact that he's top notch at reading defenses. He doesn't have to have to necessarily have a huge arm or be able to run, but he must be able to read defenses and audible out of bad plays.[/quote]
I agree to an extent.
But, the ability to 'read' defenses isn't innate its [I]taught[/I]/learned.
The ability to read defenses has a lot to with the QBs apptitude and intelligence but imo its equally a function of:

o the system
o coaching
o experience/continuity

[quote]BUT, I think that means drafting him with the knowledge that he's not going near the field his entire first season.[/quote]People say things like this about spread QBs every year.
But, imo being ready to play isn't a question of coming from a pro-style offense or not.
Its a question of maturity, coachability, drive, confidence, intelligence and of course talent.
Cam Newton, Andy Dalton, Bradford, Colt McCoy all had coaches 'reading' the defense 'for' them (its par for the course for spread QBs) but that didn't stop these guys from playing early or right away.

The bigger question imo isn't the apptitude of RGIII but rather of [I]Kyle[/I].
The inability to teach any other QB the offense has led to Rex being our QB for 15 games.
This imo calls into question how easily the offense can be taught.
[I][B]Rookies[/B][/I] Cam Newton and Andy Dalton, non-pro-style/spread QBs, were able to learn their respective offense in a shortened offseason.
Matt Moore was able to learn a new offense at the end of training camp.
Carson Palmer and Kyle Orton learned their offseason mid-season.
Yet, Rex Grossman was our QB because he knew our offense.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=30gut;870810]I agree to an extent.
But, the ability to 'read' defenses isn't innate its [I]taught[/I]/learned.
The ability to read defenses has a lot to with the QBs apptitude and intelligence but imo its equally a function of:

o the system
o coaching
o experience/continuity

People say things like this about spread QBs every year.
But, imo being ready to play isn't a question of coming from a pro-style offense or not.
Its a question of maturity, coachability, drive, confidence, intelligence and of course talent.
Cam Newton, Andy Dalton, Bradford, Colt McCoy all had coaches 'reading' the defense 'for' them (its par for the course for spread QBs) but that didn't stop these guys from playing early or right away.

The bigger question imo isn't the apptitude of RGIII but rather of [I]Kyle[/I].
The inability to teach any other QB the offense has led to Rex being our QB for 15 games.
This imo calls into question how easily the offense can be taught.
[I][B]Rookies[/B][/I] Cam Newton and Andy Dalton, non-pro-style/spread QBs, were able to learn their respective offense in a shortened offseason.
Matt Moore was able to learn a new offense at the end of training camp.
Carson Palmer and Kyle Orton learned their offseason mid-season.
[B]Yet, Rex Grossman was our QB because he knew our offense.[/B][/quote]I think they've done a good job with Grossman. But the offensive upside is limited. Because it's Rex Grossman.

I think you've really touched on a number of bottom line things here.

One thing I would add is that the "pro-style" offense in college doesn't typically involve a lot of pro reads. That's what makes Luck so different from everyone else, because one of the biggest limitations on QBs coming from college to the pros (the abilities to use coverage reads and to work a progression) is something Luck is already doing. Because of that, you don't risk a situation like you have with Sanchez where three years down the line you need a fall guy because your quarterback isn't improving.

Andrew Luck could still fail. He could play inconsistently in his first season, get hurt and miss the entire second season and then have another injury in his third preseason. Then it really doesn't matter what you have invested in Andrew Luck: you didn't get return on it. Andrew Luck could end up being the next Greg Cook. But Andrew Luck is not going to fail because of the nuances of pro offenses. He's already doing that in college.

Anyway, whether or not someone is running pro style formations in offense doesn't mean they are reading defenses. If the receiver is determined by the playcall, then the receiver is determined by the playcall. And that's the norm in college. Spread/pro/wishbone doesn't matter when projecting quarterbacks.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=Mechanix544;870801]So, you are saying that he is a better option than R.Tannehill because, as you put it, he cant really escape the sack, but he has a good sense of when its coming? So, his value is, that when he is getting crushed, he had a good sense he was about to get the shit knocked out of him?

I didnt know that was an admirable trait for a pro quarterback, but I guess its worth something??????

I wonder if Troy Aikman had that trait in my avatar pick..........it worked out great for him......lol[/quote]Well, there are things can do when a quarterback is under pressure besides eluding the rush and taking a death-defying sack.

Just to give one example: he can throw the ball to a receiver.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[url=http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/stewart_mandel/12/27/mailbag.bowls/index.html?sct=nfl_bf2_a3]Boise State's Kellen Moore has NFL talent; college mailbag - Stewart Mandel - SI.com[/url]

Good read about Kellen Moore

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

watched inside the nfl tonight. Nothing really new/important, but Michael Lombardi said that the st. louis job is appealing to coaches and he heard that if st. louis got the number 1 pick, that they Will trade it to the highest bidder in a hershel walker type of deal, which could be--as this board has mentioned--3 first rounders. I don't remember if he mentioned washington or not, but we need--if we want Luck--to have the jags lose to Indy-as we've mentioned before.

The point of this post is that what we keep hearing and hearing is starting to become more of a definite reality, should St. Louis get the pick.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

Well, if St. Louis was silly enough to trade the Luck pick, I'd certainly like the Redskins to put a package together.

Three first round picks would be a starting point, but they'll be lucky to get something nice in addition to two first round picks. I doubt you'll have to touch the 2014 draft to make that trade.

I don't know if I would do a first and a second in 2012 and a first and a second in 2013, but I think that that would be a reasonable return for the first overall pick in this draft. I don't know if I'd match that, but I could see a team getting that.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;870829]Well, if St. Louis was silly enough to trade the Luck pick, I'd certainly like the Redskins to put a package together.

Three first round picks would be a starting point, but they'll be lucky to get something nice in addition to two first round picks. I doubt you'll have to touch the 2014 draft to make that trade.

I don't know if I would do a first and a second in 2012 and a first and a second in 2013, but I think that that would be a reasonable return for the first overall pick in this draft. I don't know if I'd match that, but I could see a team getting that.[/quote]

Remember, as I've been saying on the other thread, just because you trade 3 first rounders, doesn't mean its 3 straight years 2012-2014, it could be 2012 2014 2016.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;870831]Remember, as I've been saying on the other thread, just because you trade 3 first rounders, doesn't mean its 3 straight years 2012-2014, it could be 2012 2014 2016.[/quote]But then it's not as valuable to the team that's receiving it. What the heck is a 2016 first round pick worth to someone like the Polian's today? Nothing.

That's like saying that 3 high picks doesn't have to be 3 first round picks. They could be 3 second round picks. Well, sure they could. But it's not as good as an offer.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;870833]But then it's not as valuable to the team that's receiving it. What the heck is a 2016 first round pick worth to someone like the Polian's today? Nothing.

That's like saying that 3 high picks doesn't have to be 3 first round picks. They could be 3 second round picks. Well, sure they could. But it's not as good as an offer.[/quote]

Thats not true at all.

Perfect example, Richard Seymour traded to the Raiders a few years ago from the patriots. The raiders traded their 2012 first round, in 2010. The patriots, who are well known drafters, gladly accepted it.

So are you saying back in 2010 its worthless for a team to receive the rams/colts first round pick for 2012(this year), not knowing what Luck would be? A first rounder is a first rounder.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;870836]Thats not true at all.

Perfect example, Richard Seymour traded to the Raiders a few years ago from the patriots. The raiders traded their 2012 first round, in 2010. The patriots, who are well known drafters, gladly accepted it.

So are you saying back in 2010 its worthless for a team to receive the rams/colts first round pick for 2012(this year), not knowing what Luck would be? A first rounder is a first rounder.[/quote]

There's a difference between a first rounder which skips one draft and a first rounder which skips 4 drafts (as in your 2016 example).

Besides the Seymour trade was an exception, not the rule.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[QUOTE]"Sam Bradford didn't come out of a pro style offense and he was able to start right a way."[/QUOTE]

Just to clarify Bradford did play in a pro style offense during his freshman year that was centered around play action. It was the year after that saw the Sooners switch to the spread in spite of Bradfords success under center.

Anyway speaking of Sooner QB's.

Jake_Trotter Jake Trotter
Landry Jones talked more about the draft today. Said he's gone back and forth several times about what to do.
9 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;870836]Thats not true at all.

Perfect example, Richard Seymour traded to the Raiders a few years ago from the patriots. The raiders traded their 2012 first round, in 2010. The patriots, who are well known drafters, gladly accepted it.

So are you saying back in 2010 its worthless for a team to receive the rams/colts first round pick for 2012(this year), not knowing what Luck would be? A first rounder is a first rounder.[/quote]The accepted conversion rate that the NFL uses in trades is about one round/year. So a 2014 first round pick could get a 2012 3rd round pick in return.

That's just what's accepted. For guys who need to win to keep their jobs, picks in 2014 and 2015 are worthless to them. They are not worthless to their franchises, but they do the guys who are currently employed by the team no good.

The reason Belichick likes to go and trade for picks a year later is because of a roster management move. If he knows he's only going to keep five or six rookies on the roster all year, it doesn't make a lot of sense to make 14 draft picks a year. That's inefficient. So he can turn something that's in demand now into something that will be more valuable when he can use it.

Which is fine. He consistently gets first rounders for second rounders and second rounders for third rounders. And he doesn't feel much of the loss of return in the draft, because he can only keep so many players on his roster.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;870836]So are you saying back in 2010 its worthless for a team to receive the rams/colts first round pick for 2012(this year), not knowing what Luck would be? A first rounder is a first rounder.[/quote]I am saying this: if you are Tom Cable, head coach of the Raiders, and you trade your second round pick in 2010 to the Colts for the pick in 2012 that ends up being Andrew Luck, you don't get to take that pick with you when you get fired and become OL coach for the Seahawks.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

Luck in a Skins uniform is worth almost any cost in terms of picks IMO. However, I think it only makes sense if we're very active in FA as well. We need to provide Luck w/ a top tier WR and continue to add quality depth on the oline and probably look to replace J Brown. And we need to improve markedly on defense. If Luck somehow lands in DC I think replacing Haslett with the best defensive mind available is necessary. Haslett doesn't know how to help the QB/offense with his defensive scheme on a play by play basis like the Steelers, Ravens and Niners (and the Colts up to this season).
And we need (still) need to add talent to the secondary.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

How about trading conditional first round picks since everyone knows Luck is a sure-fire franchise QB?

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;870823]I think they've done a good job with Grossman. But the offensive upside is limited. Because it's Rex Grossman.

I think you've really touched on a number of bottom line things here.

One thing I would add is that the "pro-style" offense in college doesn't typically involve a lot of pro reads. That's what makes Luck so different from everyone else, because one of the biggest limitations on QBs coming from college to the pros (the abilities to use coverage reads and to work a progression) is something Luck is already doing. Because of that, you don't risk a situation like you have with Sanchez where three years down the line you need a fall guy because your quarterback isn't improving.

Andrew Luck could still fail. He could play inconsistently in his first season, get hurt and miss the entire second season and then have another injury in his third preseason. Then it really doesn't matter what you have invested in Andrew Luck: you didn't get return on it. Andrew Luck could end up being the next Greg Cook. But Andrew Luck is not going to fail because of the nuances of pro offenses. He's already doing that in college.

[B]Anyway, whether or not someone is running pro style formations in offense doesn't mean they are reading defenses.[/B] If the receiver is determined by the playcall, then the receiver is determined by the playcall. And that's the norm in college. Spread/pro/wishbone doesn't matter when projecting quarterbacks.[/quote]

That's what I've been trying to say in this thread. While I think it's a plus to have been in a pro style offense in college, MY thoughts are on how well the quarterback can read coverages straight out of college. If he's already doing that before he even gets into the NFL, that is a HUGE advantage over the other QBs being drafted.

Re: Matt Barkley Stays (QB Draft Prospect Thread-Episode IV)
 

Give me the guy who's gonna be forced to sit in the green room longer than anticipated because the fans and so-called experts underestimate him. That's who I want!