Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=firstdown;976935]Well a good example is that a kid can steal several cars and never serve a day in jail. I had a car stolen by a kid who had also stolen 3 prior cars. Never served anytime for any of those crimes. The only reason he served anytime for stealing my car is because he had turned 18. My guess is if that happened in any outher country he would have been in jail.[/quote]


Yeah, because our prison system is full of guys incarcerated for drug charges. Legalize drugs and you free up a system to put away REAL bad guys, not ones that tobacco/alcohol/pharmaceutical companies want locked up for competing with their products.

...and shit like this. Ten years for hacking?

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/hollywood-hacker-sentenced-10-years-prison-211959427.html]Hollywood hacker sentenced to 10 years in prison - Yahoo! News[/url]

Nah...we didn't have bigger criminals roaming around out there that needed the space.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=RedskinRat;977192]I read your ([I]ancient[/I]) link, it's a 'proposed' rule, not in force. [URL="http://community.chemicalprocessing.com/content/house-hearing-ammonium-nitrate"]Ahem.....[/URL]

A 'feel good', knee-jerk piece of legislation designed to placate sheeple.

Just trying to communicate with you makes me feel more stupid.

:frusty:[/quote]

That's because he posts with media hype and buzzwords and emotion and not facts.
And he still doesn't know the difference between a basic hunting rifle and what the media calls an assault rifle.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[IMG]http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/50cb9c5becad04c867000015-400-300/10182805.jpg[/IMG]

Perfect for self-defense and hunting...7 yo children.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=firstdown;977068]These guns have been around for a long time but these mass killings are something fairly new. Something other then the access to guns has changed and that's what needs to be fixed.[/quote]

I think I stated a a big reason why these mass murders will continue and it's not because of guns. Nobody even talked about it or even commented. Why?


[YT]PezlFNTGWv4[/YT]

Listen to this forensic psychiatrist at near the end of this clip. Just listen to him. Hear him. Soak that in......now....put the pieces of many of the past mass murders together.


1) [B][U]Columbine[/U][/B] - Black trench coats, armored, anti-heros, going out in blaze of glory
[url=http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/assessment/2004/04/the_depressive_and_the_psychopath.html]At last we know why the Columbine killers did it. - Slate Magazine[/url]

2) [B][U]Virginia Tech [/U][/B]- Black military type gear, armored, anti-hero, going out in blaze of glory
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KElyLrrTLB0]Virginia Tech Shooting Confession Video - YouTube[/ame]

3) [B][U]Aurora Theater shooting [/U][/B]- Black military type gear, armored, anti-hero, going out in blaze of glory (this guy punked out on killing himself)

4) [B][U]Sandy Hook theater[/U][/B] - Dressed in black fatigues, armored, anti-hero, going out in blaze of glory.


I want all of you to stop and think about this for a second. Look at the similarities here. They all have several things in common.

1) All planned at length
2) All sought to make a splash with the media
3) All see themselves as anti-heros
4) All have psychiatric problems or signs of it

In each case, they seem to try and one up each other to get the maximum press coverage once they are gone.


Our media is feeding these types of individuals. Like FD said, guns have been around for quite sometime, so why is it now that they are occurring. Well, when you eliminate common denominators, the only thing left between now and then is the explosion of the information age. Now, what once would be considered local even national news is now put on the world stage for all to see.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=saden1;977175]My point is people with guns can be mowed down too and it can be done most effectively with the help of awful rifles the NRA advocate citizens should be able to carry for "self-defense." Even an office where everyone can be presumed to be packing can't protect itself against a killer toting semi-automatic gun with 100 round magazine. I'm not sure a killer would be as effective with a 9mm pistol. Sure, they will be able to kill the assailant but not before lots of people are on the ground bleeding, dying or dead.[/quote]

I'm buying what you're selling.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=saden1;97722]There isn't a single post where you intimate anything can be done or should be done. [/quote]

The pro gun crowd doesn't have answers. Some even seem to ignore the alarming stats that point to a serious problem. I cannot fathom how they don't find concern with the sheer amount of guns owned in the country. If guns aren't he problem...or a part of it...then what is?

Who here denies that we have a gun violence issue in the country?

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=NC_Skins;977247]I think I stated a a big reason why these mass murders will continue and it's not because of guns. Nobody even talked about it or even commented. Why?


[YT]PezlFNTGWv4[/YT]

Listen to this forensic psychiatrist at near the end of this clip. Just listen to him. Hear him. Soak that in......now....put the pieces of many of the past mass murders together.


1) [B][U]Columbine[/U][/B] - Black trench coats, armored, anti-heros, going out in blaze of glory
[url=http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/assessment/2004/04/the_depressive_and_the_psychopath.html]At last we know why the Columbine killers did it. - Slate Magazine[/url]

2) [B][U]Virginia Tech [/U][/B]- Black military type gear, armored, anti-hero, going out in blaze of glory
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KElyLrrTLB0]Virginia Tech Shooting Confession Video - YouTube[/url]

3) [B][U]Aurora Theater shooting [/U][/B]- Black military type gear, armored, anti-hero, going out in blaze of glory (this guy punked out on killing himself)

4) [B][U]Sandy Hook theater[/U][/B] - Dressed in black fatigues, armored, anti-hero, going out in blaze of glory.


I want all of you to stop and think about this for a second. Look at the similarities here. They all have several things in common.

1) All planned at length
2) All sought to make a splash with the media
3) All see themselves as anti-heros
4) All have psychiatric problems or signs of it

In each case, they seem to try and one up each other to get the maximum press coverage once they are gone.


Our media is feeding these types of individuals. Like FD said, guns have been around for quite sometime, so why is it now that they are occurring. Well, when you eliminate common denominators, the only thing left between now and then is the explosion of the information age. Now, what once would be considered local even national news is now put on the world stage for all to see.[/quote]
Maybe we should ban black clothes

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=FRPLG;977284]Maybe we should ban black clothes[/quote]

I think his point is that it's a game now and an evil one at that. These people are mentally stable enough to put on war fatigue.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=saden1;977289]I think his point is that it's a game now and an evil one at that. These people are mentally stable enough to put on war fatigue.[/quote]

No I know.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=FRPLG;977284]Maybe we should ban black clothes[/quote]

[quote=saden1;977289]I think his point is that it's a game now and an evil one at that. These people are mentally stable enough to put on war fatigue.[/quote]


I think at this point, it's you all that are trolling, not the other way around.

When did wearing all black become
'War fatigues'?

<point_laugh>

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=NC_Skins;977292]I think at this point, it's you all that are trolling, not the other way around.[/quote]

That's funny

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=RedskinRat;977303]When did wearing all black become
'War fatigues'?

<point_laugh>[/quote]

Wow...you try so hard and still manage to ooze incompetence. Grownup folks are trying to have a meaningful discussion now so please do us a favor and seek attention elsewhere.

Again, when did wearing all black fatigues constitute 'War fatigues'?

You can't answer that question so you try to divert attention.

Keep it up, your hysterical bed-wetting debate style amuses me.

Continue.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

The problem with this topic when it comes to violent acts such as what happened last week in Connecticut is the fact that you get two camps of knee-jerk arguments: More guns VS no guns. Both arguments do nothing for the root of the problem. The root of the problem is not the guns themselves. It's the people who operate them. Strict gun laws keep the honest men honest. That's about it. Those who are deranged enough to use these guns to go out and commit violent acts will do so whether they obtain the guns legally or illegally. That's just the facts.

The root of the problem is the mental health programs in the states from where these people live in. Are these mental health programs up to par, and if so, how can they be made more affordable or more available to those who need them? In every case, we can pretty much figure that there was something badly wrong, with the person who committed these acts. What if this person had been treated for his issues? I know, who's to say he wasn't, but I think this is where people need to focus on first before entertaining changing our First Amendment Rights.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

I agree, skinsguy. Using the analogy of drunk drivers it's similar, I think. We shouldn't be banning booze, but addressing the abuse of alcohol by some drivers.

It's unfair to ban something because it's abused by a small, identifiable section of the population.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=FRPLG;977283]The pro gun crowd doesn't have answers. Some even seem to ignore the alarming stats that point to a serious problem. I cannot fathom how they don't find concern with the sheer amount of guns owned in the country. If guns aren't he problem...or a part of it...then what is?

Who here denies that we have a gun violence issue in the country?[/quote]

How about the everyday video game violence? These kids sit in front of a TV playing these games everyday and somehow they have no affect on kids?

Who here denies we have a millions of kids eveyday watching and playing very violent video games?

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=Mattyk;977216]Roughing up or intimidating kids isn't the answer IMO.

I'm only 40 thanks. I never had a teacher lay a hand on me.[/quote]

Maybe we need to intimidate the kids. We sure didn't have students punching or hitting teachers like you here about today. Teachers had the respect of the students and from what I hear from many high school teachers its not that way in todays world.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=firstdown;977421]Maybe we need to intimidate the kids. We sure didn't have students punching or hitting teachers like you here about today. Teachers had the respect of the students and from what I hear from many high school teachers its not that way in todays world.[/quote]

Yea we did.
In 1975 two of my classmates stuffed our math teacher out a 1st story classroom window.
There were also two different fist fights with our school dean.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=firstdown;977414]How about the everyday video game violence? These kids sit in front of a TV playing these games everyday and somehow they have no affect on kids?

Who here denies we have a millions of kids eveyday watching and playing very violent video games?[/quote]

Right...my point that I am making rather inelegantly is that the problem is clearly very complicated and multi-factored...but guns are absolutely part of the problem. Or more accurately the fact that we own so many guns in this country is an indicator of a deeper problem that is caused by many different things. But the pro-gun crowd seems to want to ignore the "fact" that we own TOO MANY guns in this country. Perhaps gun control isn't the answer to effectively reducing them but we do need to reduce them.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=firstdown;977414]How about the everyday video game violence? These kids sit in front of a TV playing these games everyday and somehow they have no affect on kids?

Who here denies we have a millions of kids eveyday watching and playing very violent video games?[/quote]

That goes back to a parenting issue.

And I'm not a big believer that violent video games create violent people. Gotta look a little deeper than that.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=FRPLG;977450]Right...my point that I am making rather inelegantly is that the problem is clearly very complicated and multi-factored...but guns are absolutely part of the problem. Or more accurately the fact that we own so many guns in this country is an indicator of a deeper problem that is caused by many different things. But the pro-gun crowd seems to want to ignore the "fact" that we own TOO MANY guns in this country. Perhaps gun control isn't the answer to effectively reducing them but we do need to reduce them.[/quote]

Reduce them?
How?
Which kind?
How many?

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

If someone owns 1,000 firearms and never abuses them why should they be limited?

Wrong-headed thinking.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

Not to mention that Conneticut already had an assault weapons ban and also some of the most restrictive gun laws in the nation.
Didnt seem to matter did it?

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=FRPLG;977450]Right...my point that I am making rather inelegantly is that the problem is clearly very complicated and multi-factored...but guns are absolutely part of the problem. [B]Or more accurately the fact that we own so many guns in this country is an indicator of a deeper problem that is caused by many different things. [/B] But the pro-gun crowd seems to want to ignore the "fact" that we own TOO MANY guns in this country. Perhaps gun control isn't the answer to effectively reducing them but we do need to reduce them.[/quote]

There is absolutely no correlation between the amount of guns a person owns to crime rate. There is also no evidence of any deep problem or any problem at all, with the ownership of multiple guns. It is no more of an indicator of deep seeded issues than someone owning multiple cars or multiple guitars.

There is no definition of "too many" guns in this country. There is no such thing. So, there is no such evidence to support that reducing the amount of guns in this country would reduce the amount of violent crimes in this country.

Reducing the amount of guns does nothing to treat the mentally ill who commit these crimes. If people focused their attention, arguments, and efforts behind helping to improve behavioral healthcare, then you would start seeing tangible differences in crime rate. There is where you start to see more of a correlation: behavioral health issues = crime.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

In support of skinsguy's point I would cite the fact that just about every household in Switzerland has a gun, it has one of the highest rates of gun ownership (almost 50%) due to their use of citizens as a standing militia. However their gun crime is so low they don't even keep records on it.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=skinsguy;977376]The problem with this topic when it comes to violent acts such as what happened last week in Connecticut is the fact that you get two camps of knee-jerk arguments: More guns VS no guns. Both arguments do nothing for the root of the problem. The root of the problem is not the guns themselves. It's the people who operate them. Strict gun laws keep the honest men honest. That's about it. Those who are deranged enough to use these guns to go out and commit violent acts will do so whether they obtain the guns legally or illegally. That's just the facts.

The root of the problem is the mental health programs in the states from where these people live in. Are these mental health programs up to par, and if so, how can they be made more affordable or more available to those who need them? In every case, we can pretty much figure that there was something badly wrong, with the person who committed these acts. What if this person had been treated for his issues? I know, who's to say he wasn't, but I think this is where people need to focus on first before entertaining changing our First Amendment Rights.[/quote]

Here's the issue with your analogy. Vehicles and Booze have primary uses. When not used, as intended, then they can have negative consequeneces. However, their value, especially that of a vehicle, is very important in our culture and society. Guns have a single purpose. They are for killing. The guns used in the CT murders were used as they were intended to be used, for killing. The car or alcohol in your analogy were used as they are not intended to be used. That is the disconnect.

I say we take a note from Australia. In 1996 they had a massacre, and they reacted by banning all automatic and semi-automatic rifles and shotguns. After the ban Australia saw a 59% drop in firearm homicide and a 65% drop in firearm suicide. More importantly, they saw no increase in non-firearm homicides or suicides. That is real world evidence that banning assault weapons lower the murder and suicide rates in the area affected.

No one is saying that a gun ban will eliminate gun violence. It will put a hamper on crimes that are not premeditated and make it more difficult to get the type of guns that can cause massive amounts of damage in a short amount of time, especially without red flags being raised. The gun ban is certainly no silver bullet type of situation, but it is one of many steps that can greatly reduce the amount of violence we face in this country in addition to more money spent on [b]preventitive mental health care[/b].

Link: [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/02/did-gun-control-work-in-australia/]Did gun control work in Australia?[/url] (Has links to studies built in)

If I use my Glock to chase off intruders I have used it defensively. No one has been killed.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=FRPLG;977318]That's funny[/quote]

What's funny about it? It's evident you (and others) are trolling at this point. Why you say?

[quote=FRPLG;977283]The pro gun crowd doesn't have answers. Some even seem to ignore the alarming stats that point to a serious problem. I cannot fathom how they don't find concern with the sheer amount of guns owned in the country. If guns aren't he problem...or a part of it...then what is?
[/quote]

We don't have answers, yet not a single one of you have acknowledge what I posted with any sincerity. Not one. Yet the evidence is OVERWHELMING that it plays a huge part in why we have mass murderers, yet...the answer is always......BAN THIS/REGULATE THAT.


How about we address the real problems at hand. Mental health and media. They play more of a factor here than do the availability of guns. These people are doing this merely for the attention it will bring to them once they are gone.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/chinese-teenager-kills-8-people-wounds-5-knife-093731711.html]Chinese teenager kills 8 people, wounds 5 in knife attack - Yahoo! News[/url]


LETS REGULATE KNIVES!!

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=Daseal;977479]Here's the issue with your analogy. Vehicles and Booze have primary uses. When not used, as intended, then they can have negative consequeneces. However, their value, especially that of a vehicle, is very important in our culture and society. Guns have a single purpose. They are for killing. The guns used in the CT murders were used as they were intended to be used, for killing. The car or alcohol in your analogy were used as they are not intended to be used. That is the disconnect.

[B]I say we take a note from Australia. In 1996 they had a massacre, and they reacted by banning all automatic and semi-automatic rifles and shotguns. After the ban Australia saw a 59% drop in firearm homicide and a 65% drop in firearm suicide. [/B]More importantly, they saw no increase in non-firearm homicides or suicides. That is real world evidence that banning assault weapons lower the murder and suicide rates in the area affected.

No one is saying that a gun ban will eliminate gun violence. It will put a hamper on crimes that are not premeditated and make it more difficult to get the type of guns that can cause massive amounts of damage in a short amount of time, especially without red flags being raised. The gun ban is certainly no silver bullet type of situation, but it is one of many steps that can greatly reduce the amount of violence we face in this country in addition to more money spent on [B]preventitive mental health care[/B].

Link: [URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/08/02/did-gun-control-work-in-australia/"]Did gun control work in Australia?[/URL] (Has links to studies built in)[/quote]

It had also dropped that much prior to the bann so what does that prove.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;977456]Reduce them?
How?
Which kind?
How many?[/quote]

Good questions

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=RedskinRat;977459]If someone owns 1,000 firearms and never abuses them why should they be limited?

Wrong-headed thinking.[/quote]

Who said they should?

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=FRPLG;977530]Who said they should?[/quote]

You did:

FRPLG: [I]".....but guns are absolutely part of the problem. Or more accurately [U][B]the fact that we own so many guns in this country[/B][/U] is an indicator of a deeper problem that is caused by many different things. But the pro-gun crowd seems to want to[U][B] ignore the "fact" that we own TOO MANY guns in this country[/B][/U]. Perhaps gun control isn't the answer to effectively [U][B] reducing[/B][/U] them but we do need to [U][B]reduce[/B][/U] them." [/I]

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=Daseal;977479]Guns have a single purpose. They are for killing. The guns used in the CT murders were used as they were intended to be used, for killing. The car or alcohol in your analogy were used as they are not intended to be used. That is the disconnect.[/quote]Saying guns have one purpose, killing, is kinda like saying cars have one purpose, to crash at the highest speeds possible. I doubt the guns the CT shooter used, were bought to massacre people at an elementary school.

Guns are bought for hunting, target practice, self defence (which most owners would tell you they hope never involves actually shooting), and collections. The guns bought for killing, by individuals, gangs, cartels, are a subset of that, like the kids who buy cars based on 0-60 times are a subset of all car owners.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=NC_Skins;977499][url=http://news.yahoo.com/chinese-teenager-kills-8-people-wounds-5-knife-093731711.html]Chinese teenager kills 8 people, wounds 5 in knife attack - Yahoo! News[/url]


LETS REGULATE KNIVES!![/quote]

Fists are next.

Hands and feet kill twice as many people per year than "assault weapons" do.
[url=http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8]FBI &mdash; Expanded Homicide Data Table 8[/url]

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=HailGreen28;977649]Saying guns have one purpose, killing, is kinda like saying cars have one purpose, to crash at the highest speeds possible. I doubt the guns the CT shooter used, were bought to massacre people at an elementary school.

Guns are bought for hunting, target practice, self defence (which most owners would tell you they hope never involves actually shooting), and collections. The guns bought for killing, by individuals, gangs, cartels, are a subset of that, like the kids who buy cars based on 0-60 times are a subset of all car owners.[/quote]

Exactly!
My guns have only one purpose too, to make holes in paper at 100 and 50 yards. To say that their only purpose is to kill is pretty foolish.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=RedskinRat;977534]You did:

FRPLG: [I]".....but guns are absolutely part of the problem. Or more accurately [U][B]the fact that we own so many guns in this country[/B][/U] is an indicator of a deeper problem that is caused by many different things. But the pro-gun crowd seems to want to[U][B] ignore the "fact" that we own TOO MANY guns in this country[/B][/U]. Perhaps gun control isn't the answer to effectively [U][B] reducing[/B][/U] them but we do need to [U][B]reduce[/B][/U] them." [/I][/quote]

Now you're making stuff up. Nowhere did I say limit them for a person. Nowhere. Pro gunners have this reflexive habit about them it seems. Every discussion of violence and guns gets them super defensive. Perhaps discussing and creating positive discourse would be more helpful than just assuming that if someone doesn't think guns are the greatest they must think we should outlaw them.

Again...our society has an astonishing amount of guns. I believe this is an indicator that deserves attention. What does it indicate? Not totally sure. I'm less concerned about how easy it is to get guns. I'm more concerned that it is so prevalent.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=NC_Skins;977496]How about we address the real problems at hand. Mental health and media. They play more of a factor here than do the availability of guns. These people are doing this merely for the attention it will bring to them once they are gone.[/quote]

I actually very much agree with you. We have a cultural problem that promotes this behavior. I do strongly believe the amount of guns in this country is also indicative of this societal problem as well.

Re: Gun Control Thread- Should we?
 

[quote=FRPLG;977662]Now you're making stuff up. Nowhere did I say limit them for a person. Nowhere. Pro gunners have this reflexive habit about them it seems. Every discussion of violence and guns gets them super defensive. Perhaps discussing and creating positive discourse would be more helpful than just assuming that if someone doesn't think guns are the greatest they must think we should outlaw them.

Again...our society has an astonishing amount of guns. I believe this is an indicator that deserves attention. What does it indicate? Not totally sure. I'm less concerned about how easy it is to get guns. I'm more concerned that it is so prevalent.[/quote]

You say there are too many but you dont explain what that means.
You say that there is too much.
How can you expect that not to be taken as per person?