Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=Chico23231;1075773]Again you referencing war...you can be aggressive without firing a shot. How many times I gotta say this? War is reactive thinking, but the fact is you gotta do something...[/quote]

No, I'm not referencing war.

I'm pointing out that if it was indeed members of Russian military that did this, then the only way we're ever going to figure out who and why, and attempt to bring anyone to justice, is with the cooperation of Russia.

The rest of the world leaders going on TV and finger shaming Putin isn't going to help in that cause. More sanctions isn't going to help in that cause. Any sign of military aggression (reposition of ships, troops on borders, creating and patrolling no fly zones, etc etc etc) is not going to help.

In fact, I think it's reasonable to assume that those types of things are likely to shut down any real cooperation and communication between Russia and the rest of the world, resulting in not being able to conduct an investigation properly and bring people to trial.

"you gotta do something..."

I keep hearing that everywhere I turn... Here. Radio. TV. I don't hear much else to back it up.


edit: Oh, maybe it was my 'using this to take shots' that confused what I was saying. I mean figuratively, not literally :)

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=Chico23231;1075772]Well the fact is T this may have been avoided if Obama would have lead to begin with. Reactive policy isnt the way to lead, and thats where we are at.

You seen Iraq lately? the country is cut into 3 parts right now.

Obama policy tends to be stand at a dam wall and plug the holes with his fingers as leaks start appearing. You think thats the right way to do things? The administration is seriously lacking a third eye...piss poor is a better discription.[/quote]

You're absolutely right. This issue, as with many other foreign policy issues we're facing right now, can easily be traced back to the last 6 years of bad foreign policy on behalf of the administration.

That's the easy conversation to have. I don't know many people that are informed on the goings-on int he world that think we've done a good job in the last 6 years. Africa is becoming a mess. The middle east is a mess. Eastern europe is a mess. Central America is a mess.

Ironically enough Afghanistan is the only success and as far as I know Bush is the one that deserves credit, not Obama. Everything else is a complete disaster right now.

The harder conversation to have is what do we do *now*.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=tshile;1075774]No, I'm not referencing war.

I'm pointing out that if it was indeed members of Russian military that did this, then the only way we're ever going to figure out who and why, and attempt to bring anyone to justice, is with the cooperation of Russia.

The rest of the world leaders going on TV and finger shaming Putin isn't going to help in that cause. More sanctions isn't going to help in that cause. Any sign of military aggression (reposition of ships, troops on borders, creating and patrolling no fly zones, etc etc etc) is not going to help.

In fact, I think it's reasonable to assume that those types of things are likely to shut down any real cooperation and communication between Russia and the rest of the world, resulting in not being able to conduct an investigation properly and bring people to trial.

"you gotta do something..."

I keep hearing that everywhere I turn... Here. Radio. TV. I don't hear much else to back it up.


edit: Oh, maybe it was my 'using this to take shots' that confused what I was saying. I mean figuratively, not literally :)[/quote]

Ok, so assuming the facts will find Russia and the separtists downed the plane what you have now is Netherlands as a stakeholder. How did this all begin any ways...right Ukraine moving closer to the EU and then reversing that decision and signing a deal with Russia. You gotta rally around the fact Europe has now been affected by this war with the plane down. Rally the Netherlands and the EU. EU has to demand this war ends. Isolate Russia..work sanctions and threatin embargo. Engage other stakeholders..the other ex Soviet states. Organize them together with the EU. Dont engage Russia in any of this. Then you gotta bring the guilt trip down on the separtist...you caused this, a killing of innocents. At the same time we getting economic aggreements signed with the EU and the ex soviet states. The move really is to isolate Russia and get the EU to buy into the Ukraine (among the other ex soviet states) and the ends is to get the Separtist to the table to talk disarmanent and permanent ceasefire, inclusion within the goverment. After that...Russia is gonna be pissed, then you engage them to not negotiate but to tell them this is how the future of Europe looks.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=Chico23231;1075776]Ok, so assuming the facts will find Russia and the separtists downed the plane what you have now is Netherlands as a stakeholder. How did this all begin any ways...right Ukraine moving closer to the EU and then reversing that decision and signing a deal with Russia. You gotta rally around the fact Europe has now been affected by this war with the plane down. Rally the Netherlands and the EU. EU has to demand this war ends. Isolate Russia..work sanctions and threatin embargo. Engage other stakeholders..the other ex Soviet states. Organize them together with the EU. Dont engage Russia in any of this. Then you gotta bring the guilt trip down on the separtist...you caused this, a killing of innocents. At the same time we getting economic aggreements signed with the EU and the ex soviet states. The move really is to isolate Russia and get the EU to buy into the Ukraine (among the other ex soviet states) and the ends is to get the Separtist to the table to talk disarmanent and permanent ceasefire, inclusion within the goverment. After that...Russia is gonna be pissed, then you engage them to not negotiate but to tell them this is how the future of Europe looks.[/quote]

The problem I have with that plan is that it basically means we're feigning outrage over the airliner - because nothing in that does anything about the airliner being shot down. This recent incident becomes nothing more than a pawn in a bigger Us Vs Russia game and nothing else. Is there anyone that actually thinks, if Russia is responsible, that they did this on purpose? If so, what's the motive? Russia has nothing to gain and much to lose if it's found out they purposefully show down a civilian airliner....

To me it seems like your plan leads us down a path of nothingness.... Russia denies doing it... the international community blames them... but no one is ever held accountable, no legitimate investigation is ever really done, the truth is never actually discovered only muddled enough by both sides to cause people to fall back on their predisposition to the whole US vs Russia issue to begin with.

Those families actually affected by the issue receive... nothing.

And the whole thing becomes just a small part of the bigger issue.

Which is fine - if that's what you want. But I'd prefer the people that want that to stop feigning the outrage over the airliner, because with that plan it certainly seems like the actual shooting down of the airliner is at the bottom of their priority list.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

I will let it go after one last statement, because it seems like you don't really want to believe there are other ways to handle this.

my last statement:
The US President has a bully pulpit like no other in the world, and the assets to assess rapidly occurring events with amazing efficiency. In THIS case, an unarmed, civilian, aircraft flying along a well known flight path, shot down with anti aircraft missiles, that bully pulpit should have been used to initiate specific responses - several of which I outlined. I don't care if it's a republican president, a democratic president, or a libertarian president. Our position in the world and the office of the Presidency demands that we have more than a Hallmark card response. We didn't see that in THIS case, which happens to be under President Obama's watch.

my last "specific responses":
-- Emergency meeting with National Security Advisors and top congressional members from both parties
-- Televised national unity speech that outlines concerns for air traffic safety, and use of anti-aircraft rockets against civilian flights
-- Send FAA advisors to Ukraine [U]today[/U] and make a public show that they either are being allowed on site immediately or question why not.
-- (privately yesterday, and assuming the yes answer announce first thing this morning) offer US AWAC monitoring over Ukranian Air Space. It does put us at a small risk, that someone might shoot an AWAC down, but it sends a HUGE message that commercial airspace is important to the US. Even Offer joint missions with Russia if the President decides to do that, I remember when Reagan offered to share SDI with Russia, sure it's not likely they will accept the offer, but you are leading not reacting.
-- Call for the UN to authorize IMMEDIATE peacekeeping troops
-- Reiterate that Crimea is part of Ukraine sovereign territory.

The US could have done any or all of these things without any risk (except the AWACs) of a shooting war between Russia and the US, and it would have presented a far different path then one where your adversary sees you attending a partisan event, with no notable response to such an egregious act.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=tshile;1075777]The problem I have with that plan is that it basically means we're feigning outrage over the airliner - because nothing in that does anything about the airliner being shot down. This recent incident becomes nothing more than a pawn in a bigger Us Vs Russia game and nothing else. Is there anyone that actually thinks, if Russia is responsible, that they did this on purpose? If so, what's the motive? Russia has nothing to gain and much to lose if it's found out they purposefully show down a civilian airliner....

To me it seems like your plan leads us down a path of nothingness.... Russia denies doing it... the international community blames them... but no one is ever held accountable, no legitimate investigation is ever really done, the truth is never actually discovered only muddled enough by both sides to cause people to fall back on their predisposition to the whole US vs Russia issue to begin with.

Those families actually affected by the issue receive... nothing.

And the whole thing becomes just a small part of the bigger issue.

Which is fine - if that's what you want. But I'd prefer the people that want that to stop feigning the outrage over the airliner, because with that plan it certainly seems like the actual shooting down of the airliner is at the bottom of their priority list.[/quote]

LOL ooooooooohhhhh so you want justice for the families? So YOUR moving the ends now. So your down with the easy way and not the heavy lifting. I expect that from this generation.

Its more of a strategy than a plan. See you got to lead for it work, you have to convice and persuade...its not easy. You have to get others to buy in and give it a vision. Its called leadership...

There was no motive for Russia to do this, it was an accident. Come'on. motive? really

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1075779]I will let it go after one last statement, because it seems like you don't really want to believe there are other ways to handle this.
[/quote]
Ok.

I'm not sure why you think that way, I was trying to be very open and genuine in asking what should be done and I thought I responded thoughtfully to your last post. Oh well.

By the way - You have no way of knowing that many of your suggested actions have not been, or not currently in the process of being, done. Just sayin'.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=Chico23231;1075780]LOL ooooooooohhhhh so you want justice for the families? So YOUR moving the ends now. So your down with the easy way and not the heavy lifting. I expect that from this generation.

Its more of a strategy than a plan. See you got to lead for it work, you have to convice and persuade...its not easy. You have to get others to buy in and give it a vision. Its called leadership...

There was no motive for Russia to do this, it was an accident. Come'on. motive? really[/quote]

I don't think what I want is relevant, to be honest. But I thought generally people would want justice - not for the families, but against the people that shot down a commercial airliner. There is a tad bit of a difference there.

I'm not sure what sparks you to think I'm down with the easy way and not the heavy lifting, much less what caused you to take shots at my 'generation.' You seem to be quick to size up who I am after what... 50 posts here, only a handful having anything to do with politics? Nice to know...

If you're not interested in motive for taking such a heinous action then I don't suppose you're interested in any of the facts at all, or the actual issue of an airliner being downed.

Which, as I said, is fine. But please... spare us the fake outrage over the airliner... that's clearly not your actual issue.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=tshile;1075781]Ok.

I'm not sure why you think that way, I was trying to be very open and genuine in asking what should be done and I thought I responded thoughtfully to your last post. Oh well.

By the way - You have no way of knowing that many of your suggested actions have not been, or not currently in the process of being, done. Just sayin'.[/quote]
I think that you have summarily dismissed every suggestion with your last line "have not been or not currently in the process of being done" but that's simply wrong.

I know the following:
The President did NOT have a televised address to the country.
The President did NOT have FAA technicians on the ground in the Ukraine this morning, waiting to gain entry to the crash site.
The President did NOT meet with bipartisan members of congress while at the fund raiser.
The President did NOT in his initial public statement (or subsequent ones that I am aware of) condemn military force against commercial airlines and call publicly for all sides to acknowledge that safe passage of civilian airlines is an unmoveable fact.

Yes some things happen in the backdrop, but THIS incident should have been, imo, handle openly and forcefully within moments of assessing that it was a military rocket hitting a civilian airline, and the world knows it was not.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=tshile;1075782]I don't think what I want is relevant, to be honest. But I thought generally people would want justice - not for the families, but against the people that shot down a commercial airliner. There is a tad bit of a difference there.

I'm not sure what sparks you to think I'm down with the easy way and not the heavy lifting, much less what caused you to take shots at my 'generation.' You seem to be quick to size up who I am after what... 50 posts here, only a handful having anything to do with politics? Nice to know...

If you're not interested in motive for taking such a heinous action then I don't suppose you're interested in any of the facts at all, or the actual issue of an airliner being downed.

Which, as I said, is fine. But please... spare us the fake outrage over the airliner... that's clearly not your actual issue.[/quote]

Im/We are outraged over the airliner, why are we not? The shooting of the plane is a rally point, you honor the victims by ending all this foolishness...I dont get fake outrage, 9/11 was feign outrage to invade Afganistan and stop the Taliban? Why cant we seek justice, do the investigation and stop the war in the Ukraine? See what i mean is this generation cant hold focus, its instant gratification and then move on. Internet shaming wont work on Russia.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1075783]
The President did NOT have a televised address to the country.[/quote]
Which I already agreed with you on...
[quote=CRedskinsRule;1075783]
The President did NOT have FAA technicians on the ground in the Ukraine this morning, waiting to gain entry to the crash site.
[/quote]
Fox News is reporting that there are investigators that will be deployed. How many, from which agencies, and when they'll be at the crash site is not public information, but we are sending people....

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1075783]
The President did NOT meet with bipartisan members of congress while at the fund raiser.[/quote]
Right... the fund raiser again... but you have no idea if he did or didn't before or after the fund raiser.... That's my point... you're using the fund raiser to take jabs and insinuate something you, I, and everyone else has zero clue about.

I wouldn't put it past this president to shirk off his responsibilities in this situation, don't get me wrong. I've yet to see this president display anything close to traits of strong leadership.

I just can't help but chuckle at how this stuff goes every time there is an issue... it doesn't seem to matter who the president is, everyone's aware of everything going on behind the scenes and becomes a critic all the sudden...

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1075783]
The President did NOT in his initial public statement (or subsequent ones that I am aware of) condemn military force against commercial airlines and call publicly for all sides to acknowledge that safe passage of civilian airlines is an unmoveable fact.

Yes some things happen in the backdrop, but THIS incident should have been, imo, handle openly and forcefully within moments of assessing that it was a military rocket hitting a civilian airline, and the world knows it was not.[/quote]

The President's public statement was yesterday somewhere around 1 or 2 PM. I do not recall there being significant evidence (publicly) available at the time that said it was indeed a missile, but maybe I wasn't paying enough attention.

As we speak the White House has announced that the President is preparing to address the nation...

It seems like on some of these points you're being critical just for the sake of being critical. Like I said... for many of the things you suggest as 'better' ways of dealing with this, you have no way of knowing it's not already being done. For others... you haven't allowed very much time, or for very much fact searching, to write off those actions as not being taken yet.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=Chico23231;1075784]Im/We are outraged over the airliner, why are we not? The shooting of the plane is a rally point, you honor the victims by ending all this foolishness...I dont get fake outrage, 9/11 was feign outrage to invade Afganistan and stop the Taliban? Why cant we seek justice, do the investigation and stop the war in the Ukraine? See what i mean is this generation cant hold focus, its instant gratification and then move on. Internet shaming wont work on Russia.[/quote]

Right... because everything I've talked about has to do with instant gratification and internet shaming.

When you're ready to stop taking jabs at me for asking simple and basic questions (that you've still yet to answer) let me know. I'll continue the conversation.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=tshile;1075788]Right... because everything I've talked about has to do with instant gratification and internet shaming.

When you're ready to stop taking jabs at me for asking simple and basic questions (that you've still yet to answer) let me know. I'll continue the conversation.[/quote]

Post 197 and 203 is in response to you question.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

Fair enough :)

I agree whole heatedly with your post 197.

But as I said, I take some issues with your other post. Which is not at all intended to suggest that's a bad way to handle it, or the wrong way. Just that I see how it's not a 100% good way of doing it, and wonder whether there is a better way.

Off the top of my head - maybe consider that the downing of this airliner was an accident and that there would be some good to be done by approaching Russia sincerely. The good being done would be cooperation on all sides to investigate and bring people accountable. Maybe that would open the door to a resolution of the entire Ukraine/Russia issue? Probably not, but possibly?

That may be entirely naive, and I recognize that. I just can't help but wonder :)

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

President Obama is about to give a statement on it. Whether it will be Hallmark condolences and fluff, or substantive and confirmable actions will let us further this discussion, I would think.

Edit:
I would give the President a decent mark. I think he addressed several points. I don't think it went far enough, but I can also accept that he wasn't going to.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

Interesting tidbit of the plane crash...did anyone hear how the President first heard about the incident? Him and Putin were on the phone together yesterday morning about the sanctions and Putin mentioned it to Obama as the convo was ending. Just amazing.

Also amazing is the rumor the plane black boxes are already in Russia. why is that?

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[url=http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-28362872]BBC News - MH17 crash: Ukraine releases alleged intercepts[/url]

Pretty damning evidence.

Cossacks are an ethic group basically bred for military combat. They pretty much come out the womb ready to fight. Kinda badasses

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

The evidence is piling up as to who did it... the only important remaining question to me is whether or not it was an accident.

If they misidentified a plane in a war zone and took action, then we should be looking to bring charges to those responsible and whatever punishment the international courts can do.

If it was intentional then it's going to be hard to separate Russia from the people that pushed the trigger... things could get quite messy...

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

Sometimes headlines are misleading, but in this case it's a direct quote from the Prime Minister of Turkey, and a bit crazy for a President who came in to make the US more "likeable" in the world

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/no-longer-talk-obama-turkeys-erdogan-100909241.html]I no longer talk to Obama: Turkey's Erdogan[/url]

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1075956]Sometimes headlines are misleading, but in this case it's a direct quote from the Prime Minister of Turkey, and a bit crazy for a President who came in to make the US more "likeable" in the world

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/no-longer-talk-obama-turkeys-erdogan-100909241.html]I no longer talk to Obama: Turkey's Erdogan[/url][/quote]

When you look at the information that's come from 'insiders' recently, including books, it's not all the surprising.

This president seems to be... absent when it comes to foreign policy issues.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/F3GmDE1.png[/IMG]

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

I get a chuckle out of the people for bashing Obama for how's he's handled the plane being shot down. Let's revisit history to back in the Cold War when Russia shot down a Korean plane. How did the glorious Ronald Reagan handle this? I'll let Jon Stewart sum this up.


[url]https://screen.yahoo.com/comedy-central/cover-air-reagan-040000755.html?vp=1[/url]

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

Dianne Feinstein publicly said today that the world would probably very much appreciate an increase in President Obama's attention...

I'm far from an Obama basher... but when your own party leaders are publicly calling you out for not giving two craps about foreign policy issues... after gate's book, and other things that have been leaked to the media...

Pretty bad.

PS - Anyone taking this to mean something about Kerry/Clinton? You want one of them in the oval office after all this?

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1075974]I get a chuckle out of the people for bashing Obama for how's he's handled the plane being shot down. Let's revisit history to back in the Cold War when Russia shot down a Korean plane. How did the glorious Ronald Reagan handle this? I'll let Jon Stewart sum this up.


[URL]https://screen.yahoo.com/comedy-central/cover-air-reagan-040000755.html?vp=1[/URL][/quote]
You and Stewart must have no historical knowledge of Reagan's economic, military and political actions that ultimately destroyed the USSR. Let's also remember the USSR then and now are completely different. Reagan didn't want to launch into a full scale war with the Soviets when he knew the economic pressure, along with the US military build-up and threat of SDI were working to destroy the USSR....without the sacrifice of tens of thousands of American lives that would've been lost in an all-out war with them.

Contrast Reagan's actions prior to KAL 007 with Obama's open-mike statement to having more "flexibility" to work with Putin and the USSR after the 2012 election and you see the result is an aggressive Russia that has no fear whatsoever of a strong US response to their aggressive actions in the region. US weakness only emboldens our enemies and those that want to expand their power through evil and aggression against their neighbors.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;1076077]You and Stewart must have no historical knowledge of Reagan's economic, military and political actions that ultimately destroyed the USSR. Let's also remember the USSR then and now are completely different. Reagan didn't want to launch into a full scale war with the Soviets when he knew the economic pressure, along with the US military build-up and threat of SDI were working to destroy the USSR....without the sacrifice of tens of thousands of American lives that would've been lost in an all-out war with them.

[B]Contrast Reagan's actions prior to KAL 007 with Obama's open-mike statement to having more "flexibility" to work with Putin and the USSR after the 2012 election and you see the result is an aggressive Russia that has no fear whatsoever of a strong US response to their aggressive actions in the region. US weakness only emboldens our enemies and those that want to expand their power through evil and aggression against their neighbors[/B].[/quote]


SS33 you sum it up well. Reagan was extremely strong against Russia, I thought everybody knew that...

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

I think the point was he took 4 days before making a national address and those on the right lambasted obama for not saying anything (some in this thread...) less than 24 hours citing... regan's response as an example of how to handle things.

in his own memoirs he says he was sad to have had to deal wait it - because he was looking forward to the last 3 days of his vacation.

that aside...

iraq warned of isis in august of 2013. in january 2014 isis captured fallujah and Obama responded by clearly not taking it seriously.

this entire administration has continued to drop the ball in foreign policy issues.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

Reagan's era dealt with wired phones, newspapers, and commodore 64s(well maybe IBM mainframes) not high speed video feeds, instantaneous news feeds from multiple sources, and Intel computers dealing with terabytes of data.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;1076077]You and Stewart must have no historical knowledge of Reagan's economic, military and political actions that ultimately destroyed the USSR. Let's also remember the USSR then and now are completely different. Reagan didn't want to launch into a full scale war with the Soviets when he knew the economic pressure, along with the US military build-up and threat of SDI were working to destroy the USSR....without the sacrifice of tens of thousands of American lives that would've been lost in an all-out war with them.

Contrast Reagan's actions prior to KAL 007 with Obama's open-mike statement to having more "flexibility" to work with Putin and the USSR after the 2012 election and you see the result is an aggressive Russia that has no fear whatsoever of a strong US response to their aggressive actions in the region. US weakness only emboldens our enemies and those that want to expand their power through evil and aggression against their neighbors.[/quote]


First off, I'm merely commenting about Reagan's/Obama's response to a plane shot down. I don't recall formulating a stance that Reagan was weak with Russia, but I can guarantee you that he would not have done ANYTHING about the invasion of Ukraine. Did they do anything with Afghanistan? Nope. Well, they did train and fund Mujahideen fighters, which end up turning around and being some of the same guys that caused 9/11, but that's another story.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY (Reagan/Romney/Bush/etc) would be sending troops to Ukraine to fight off an invading Russian army. First off, we can't afford it. We are to our eyeballs in debt, and simply cannot afford another war anytime soon. Secondly, Russia still has nukes, and no matter how bad we could wipe the floor with Russia, at the end, would you trust a lunatic like Putin with his finger on a nuke? Nope.

Also, I'd say the USSR had more to do with their collapse than Reagan or the US. The USSR invested all their money into military instead of opening up the economy and letting it flourish. (which is what we did) Hey, it's kind of the route we are heading down now.

Putin has brought some prosperity back to Russia, but he's still a old KGB man with dreams of a unified USSR. The bad news for him is even if he did get back the USSR, it will NEVER EVER reach the might they once had. All Putin is doing now is cutting economic strings to his country and eventually the oligarchs in Russia will turn on him.

I'm no Obama supporter, but I'm not sure what you all expect Obama to do? At the end of the day, Ukraine isn't a valued resource for us so the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1076102]Reagan's era dealt with wired phones, newspapers, and commodore 64s(well maybe IBM mainframes) not high speed video feeds, instantaneous news feeds from multiple sources, and Intel computers dealing with terabytes of data.[/quote]

Yet he still had the information immediately and it still took 4 days. And he still made that comment in his book.

Yet he's the only used to criticize the current reaction.

I get that the current Administration sucks at foreign policy. What's funny/sad/amusing is the lengths some people go to find criticism.

They could have at least looked into how long it took Regan to respond before chastising Obama, since they clearly couldn't remember themselves.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=NC_Skins;1076103]
I'm no Obama supporter, but I'm not sure what you all expect Obama to do? At the end of the day, Ukraine isn't a valued resource for us so the juice isn't worth the squeeze.[/quote]

This has been my question from the start.

When you finally get people to stop speaking in grand and ambiguous terms you find out not very many people have any actionable ideas that's are all that different than what is currently going on.

It's growing tiring watching how people react to this stuff in the media (politicians and talking heads) and how so many people latch onto it and join in...

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1076102]Reagan's era dealt with wired phones, newspapers, and commodore 64s(well maybe IBM mainframes) not high speed video feeds, instantaneous news feeds from multiple sources, and Intel computers dealing with terabytes of data.[/quote]

Yes, but the Russians dealt with the same tech restraints. I dont think has to do with policy and strategy with the soviets, in fact, probably was harder with what you mentioned above, it was more of a poker game when things went silent.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

People who keep mentioning armed conflict with Russia are completely dismissing the steps Obama has CLEARLY FUCKED UP. You dont have directly use force, did Reagan? No, but he toppled the Soviet...come'on think a little

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=Chico23231;1076132]People who keep mentioning armed conflict with Russia are completely dismissing the steps Obama has CLEARLY FUCKED UP. You dont have directly use force, did Reagan? No, but he toppled the Soviet...come'on think a little[/quote]


Is this sarcasm? If so, it's going wayyyy over my head.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

You know it's bad when Darth Vader is polling higher than all the potential 2016 Presidential candidates.

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/07/23/darth-vader-is-polling-higher-than-all-potential-2016-presidential-candidates/]Darth Vader is polling higher than all potential 2016 presidential candidates - The Washington Post[/url]

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

I think we can admit ,Reagan wasn't dealing with Putin either .The situations and times are very different .

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/07/world/meast/stopping-isis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1]Will anyone stop ISIS? - CNN.com[/url]

tell ya, the things we go to war over and not go to war over is funny. genocide, nope, we dont have time to fight against that.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

This will turn in to a too long didn't read rambling post. Warning you upfront so you can choose to skip it, probably will be a rant against the current administration, but I want to say up front, republicans are idiots too, they just don't have much sway on the topics that are sitting on my mind leading to this rant. So please don't think I am favoring a return to the 2000 Bush presidency or the similar corporate shells of republicans. I wish we could somehow find a way back to real limited, decidedly neutral, government programs that benefit society and our national interests not individual groups, be they rich uppers, or poor lowers. We are tearing ourselves apart from the inside as the parties play off each other to distract us from their little clique.

And that's not even the rant!

I want to list several events in my mind, most of which point to gross incompetence, or pure lack of understanding, by those who are supposed to be defending our national security, but instead are collecting terabytes of data on our own citizens:
again, most of these are republican talking points but by no means am I arguing that the Republicans would have been better if they led the government, and sadly it's probably not all inclusive, only the items that weigh on my feeble mind.:[LIST][*]Benghazi[*]Russian flights testing US airspace[*]Chinese intercept of US patrol planes[*]Chinese assertion of rights over disputed territories[*]Corporations merging with international partners and transferring out of the US to avoid new taxes[*]regional conflicts (Ukraine, Isr/Gaza, Libya )[/LIST]
In several of these the US position has either been "we didn't know" or "if you do x we will be mad at you"

It reminds me (and I was only 11-12 at the time, so this part is probably heavily biased by a very conservative father's clearly expressed opinions) of Jimmy Carter's presidency. One in which the US seemed unwilling or unclear on how to act on an international stage. Jimmy Carter is a great humanitarian, and I respect him as such, but I also believe that he thinks - or did when he was in office- that all societies and leaders of societies hold to the same values as the US professes too. I think Pres. Obama shares that vision. And that is bad for the US, and in my opinion, the world. I think he acts in the belief that others, not labeled Republican, will do "the right thing" as he defines it. Thus, while he can't deal with Republicans, because he knows they just don't get his world view, he defines US national policies in ways that assume that the other leaders abide in it. I do think he is coming to understand that other powers will want to step into the void created by group think strategies, but I don't think he, or his national security teams truly believe that other nation-states might actually believe their own view of the is better than what the US provides.

Take this quote from Pres Obama today:
Pres. Obama: "In just 4 months we will complete our combat mission in Afghanistan and America's longest war will come to a responsible end"

Last I checked, there was no truce signed by all combatants. Simply by proclaiming an end to US involvement doesn't mean the other side is going to go along with it. What it does mean is that other countries and interests are going to see a vacuum and from previous patterns of US behaviour they know that we will be reluctant to get back into "America's longest war". Just look at another quote from today:Pres. Obama: "Our military action in Iraq has to be part of a broader strategy ... to take our fight to ISIL" and Pres. Obama: "American combat troops will not be returning to fight in Iraq", this isn't the first time we upfront take a whole level off the table. I get that you don't want to send troops, and that ideally no troops would have to go back, but if you telegraph it, others gain strength from perceived weakness.

I think it's fair to say (and I could be wrong) that most of our wars have started when people miscalculated US intent. I see this advisor build up in Iraq, and think of the advisors in Vietnam. I see regional flare ups, and think of how WWI started because someone killed an arch duke and it escalated. I see the US thinking putting harsh sanctions on Russia is a way to change the mind of Putin, and think of the harsh sanctions that led to the rise of Hitler.

Maybe we are the great shining example, and all other nations will see us and think Gosh, that's who we want to follow. BUT, I highly believe that others see our heavy handedness much like the Roman Empire's was felt, and they see our demise as an opening for their greatness. Be it a new Caliphate, a return to the Chinese empire, or the Russian control over the former soviet bloc.

And that's not even touching the surface of republican and democrat national policy. Ugh. Can I get back to the distraction of football now.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

What is it you want , what is it that you think we (Obama) should either do or have done ? You name these things ...


Benghazi
Russian flights testing US airspace
Chinese intercept of US patrol planes
Chinese assertion of rights over disputed territories
Corporations merging with international partners and transferring out of the US to avoid new taxes
regional conflicts (Ukraine, Isr/Gaza, Libya )

People in the US aren't happy,people everywhere are not happy and the US is the cause or the answer ,damned if we do and damned if we don't ! The new technology that there is people know things within mins if not seconds of when things happen and want to know who, what, where, when, thing is in the old days we didn't know everything and that was a good thing .I knew of the NSA ,CIA and FBI and I knew what they did and they protected America ,I did not need to know how they did there job ,just keep doing it .Ignorant some might call it ,no , I had faith in my country and it's leaders ,that is why they were elected even the ones I did not vote for .
Now everyone is under the gun (wrong choice of words) if you have a phone you are a reporter ,a photographer and now it's your job to get the news out regardless if you know what started whatever it is your texting , tweeting or instagraming about.Do you believe that with out "social media" and of these problems would be as big as they are today ,yes they are important I don't want to belittle any of them that is not my purpose ,people died and are dying in these conflicts .

1)Benghazi - a total FU on every front ,people in many places didn't do their job ,will be a republican buzz word .
2)Russian flights testing US airspace - this has been going on for decades ,so what ?
3)Chinese intercept of US patrol planes - See #2 , we do it to China ,they do it to others and Russa does it to us ,again so what ?
4)Chinese assertion of rights over disputed territories - Wrong without a doubt but again it has been going on for years ,usally we sit down and negotiate something with them .
5) Corporations merging with international partners and transferring out of the US to avoid new taxes - Ok ,still not new and has been going on lots O places just not in the USA for decades .
6)regional conflicts (Ukraine, Isr/Gaza, Libya ) see #4

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

I would have been happy on the Benghazi front if the administration didn't lie to us to protect an upcoming election.

That's the lowest of the low in my opinion.


#5 is easy - if you do that you should be disqualified from federal grants and tax breaks immediately. I'd even consider playing higher taxes on companies that do this because - fuck them, that's because.

Re: The Obama Years- A GOP love story
 

[quote=tshile;1079196]I would have been happy on the Benghazi front if the administration didn't lie to us to protect an upcoming election.

That's the lowest of the low in my opinion.


#5 is easy - if you do that you should be disqualified from federal grants and tax breaks immediately. I'd even consider playing higher taxes on companies that do this because - fuck them, that's because.[/quote]

I still don't think they lied ,one hand does'nt know what the other has said or done a total FU but I don't believe they are lying .

On #5) I agree with you but again this has been going on for years and nobody from either party has or will do a damn thing about it .