Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

To bring the discussion back to fact over fiction:

[url=http://www.nfl.com/player/pierregarcon/2346/gamelogs]Pierre Garcon: Game Logs at NFL.com[/url]

[url=http://www.nfl.com/player/santanamoss/2504743/profile]Santana Moss, WR for the Washington Redskins at NFL.com[/url]

Tana had twice as many TDs as Garcon though he was targeted...less. Garcon made little to no impact is several games (outside the ones he missed completely), getting yardage in junk minutes but otherwise being very quiet.

Again, hopefully this is the year he puts together a season anywhere near worthy of his contract.

[QUOTE=The Goat;1002592]To bring the discussion back to fact over fiction:

[url=http://www.nfl.com/player/pierregarcon/2346/gamelogs]Pierre Garcon: Game Logs at NFL.com[/url]

[url=http://www.nfl.com/player/santanamoss/2504743/profile]Santana Moss, WR for the Washington Redskins at NFL.com[/url]

Tana had twice as many TDs as Garcon though he was targeted...less. Garcon made little to no impact is several games (outside the ones he missed completely), getting yardage in junk minutes but otherwise being very quiet.

Again, hopefully this is the year he puts together a season anywhere near worthy of his contract.[/QUOTE]

Interesting, but meaningless stats. Garcon's presence on the field clearly impacted the defense and coverage. With Garcon in the lineup we lost one game, without him we lost a few more than that. Was it all on him, probably not. but his presence and ability to provide explosive plays, ala the dallas touchdown, brought a threat defenses had to respect.

Moss and our other receivers benefitted from defenses coverage of Garcon.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=The Goat;1002592]To bring the discussion back to fact over fiction:

[url=http://www.nfl.com/player/pierregarcon/2346/gamelogs]Pierre Garcon: Game Logs at NFL.com[/url]

[url=http://www.nfl.com/player/santanamoss/2504743/profile]Santana Moss, WR for the Washington Redskins at NFL.com[/url]

Tana had twice as many TDs as Garcon though he was targeted...less. Garcon made little to no impact is several games (outside the ones he missed completely), getting yardage in junk minutes but otherwise being very quiet.

Again, hopefully this is the year he puts together a season anywhere near worthy of his contract.[/quote]

Mike Wallace had 64 catches for 836 yards and 8 TD's in 15 games. Garcon had 44 catches for 633 yards and 4 TD's in 9 games. (In case you arent looking, thats more catches and yards per game and fairly equal in TD's per game) However, 2 of those games he was playing on one foot. So basically he put up those stats in 7 games. Are you sure that you picked the right guy to compare stats to? Wallace's stats and new contract say that Garcon is worth every penny. If you want to use stats, at least use ones that make your case, not ones that go against everything you are trying to say.

I cant believe we are comparing a guy who was trying to play with a serious foot problem over a soft, self centered, one trick pony who believes he should be the highest paid anything in the NFL.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

Can't believe we're even having this discussion. Garcon's impact down the stretch was undeniable. The stats don't even tell the whole story.

Dallas 4-86-1
NYG 8-106-1
Bal 5-83-1
Cle 6-65
Phi 7-89
Dallas 3-46

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

Garcon in our offense was lights out. Can't wait for a 100% Garcon next year.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1002594]Interesting, but meaningless stats. Garcon's presence on the field clearly impacted the defense and coverage. With Garcon in the lineup we lost one game, without him we lost a few more than that. Was it all on him, probably not. but his presence and ability to provide explosive plays, ala the dallas touchdown, brought a threat defenses had to respect.

Moss and our other receivers benefitted from defenses coverage of Garcon.[/quote]

You also have to take his injury into the equation. He was hurt in week one. Anything till after the bye week and really till after the Philly game, has to be thrown out. He essentially played on one foot, and to be honest that fact that he played at all is miraculous. I have been dealing with chronic platar facitus in both feet for the last 16 months. I am at the point of surgery. The inflamation does not go away and is extremely painful at times during everyday to the point of limping.

The guy is worth it and considering he just signed his contract and it obviously wasn't completely back loaded makes his salary cap number seem fair.

Bowen and Cofield are paid a little more than I would have guessed, but they were signed to above average deals and have lived up to them at times. At the same time though I do not think I would go about restructuring them at this time nor would I cut them. I would leave them alone unless we needed the space back.

Garcon or Morgan could have their deals reworked to free up some money as well as signing Rak to a long term deal.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=The Goat;1002592]To bring the discussion back to fact over fiction:

[URL="http://www.nfl.com/player/pierregarcon/2346/gamelogs"]Pierre Garcon: Game Logs at NFL.com[/URL]

[URL="http://www.nfl.com/player/santanamoss/2504743/profile"]Santana Moss, WR for the Washington Redskins at NFL.com[/URL]

Tana had twice as many TDs as Garcon though he was targeted...less. Garcon made little to no impact is several games (outside the ones he missed completely), getting yardage in junk minutes but otherwise being very quiet.

Again, hopefully this is the year he puts together a season anywhere near worthy of his contract.[/quote]

Garcon gets more separation, runs better routes, and makes YAC look like child's play.

Moss is playing his natural position doing some more slot work, and he can be lined up to stretch the field giving Garcon more room to work the seams. They are both pretty solid receivers but you can't look at the stats solely and deduce that he's better.

Garcon brings an extra element to the offense that isn't there without him, and anyone who watches the games can confirm that. He can get off jams (Moss routinely gets bumped off his routes) and will attack the ball.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1002594]Interesting, but meaningless stats. Garcon's presence on the field clearly impacted the defense and coverage. With Garcon in the lineup we lost one game, without him we lost a few more than that. Was it all on him, probably not. but his presence and ability to provide explosive plays, ala the dallas touchdown, brought a threat defenses had to respect.

Moss and our other receivers benefitted from defenses coverage of Garcon.[/quote]

Garcon also happened to suit up when the defense played considerably better ;)

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=The Goat;1002589]Time and again...you delineate in fine fashion you know absolutely nothing about the game of football lol. I used to just keep you on the ignore list but missed the chuckles.[/quote]

Just when I thought it was safe to take you off the ignore lists .

I may not have a brilliant football mind. However, compared to the pearls of wisdom that you spew forth, from your "I have a friend in the oil business in Denver", to your inability understand the role of the read option in the Skins offense, to your Gaffney man-crush and incessant and obtuse belief that Garcon was a mistake, I am a f'ing football savant.

but back to the numbers.

In 2013, Garcon's YAC was 6.77 and Wallace's was 4.2. 60% of Garcon's catches went for first downs compared to 52% for Wallace.

On top of that, Garcon has consistently been cited for bringing a toughness to the WR core and transforming its attitude. Wallace? Tell me when anyone has said that of Wallace.

Back to the ignore list for you.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=The Goat;1002651]Garcon also happened to suit up when the defense played considerably better ;)[/quote]

maybe when you see the offensive guys putting everything on the line, hurt foot/shoulder and all, the defensive guys step up for respected teammates:food-smil

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1002736]Just when I thought it was safe to take you off the ignore lists .

I may not have a brilliant football mind. However, compared to the pearls of wisdom that you spew forth, from your "[B]I have a friend in the oil business in Denver[/B]", to your inability understand the role of the read option in the Skins offense, to your Gaffney man-crush and incessant and obtuse belief that Garcon was a mistake, I am a f'ing football savant.

but back to the numbers.

In 2013, Garcon's YAC was 6.77 and Wallace's was 4.2. 60% of Garcon's catches went for first downs compared to 52% for Wallace.

On top of that, Garcon has consistently been cited for bringing a toughness to the WR core and transforming its attitude. Wallace? Tell me when anyone has said that of Wallace.

Back to the ignore list for you.[/quote]

awww man, I totally forgot about that classic

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

What ever happened to "Cause' I said so!"
......you guys

Now Hog1 ... Have I ever used four words where 200 would suffice?

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=The Goat;1002592]To bring the discussion back to fact over fiction:

[url=http://www.nfl.com/player/pierregarcon/2346/gamelogs]Pierre Garcon: Game Logs at NFL.com[/url]

[url=http://www.nfl.com/player/santanamoss/2504743/profile]Santana Moss, WR for the Washington Redskins at NFL.com[/url]

Tana had twice as many TDs as Garcon though he was targeted...less. Garcon made little to no impact is several games (outside the ones he missed completely), getting yardage in junk minutes but otherwise being very quiet.

Again, hopefully this is the year he puts together a season anywhere near worthy of his contract.[/quote]

Because it is applicable to just about everything you say about anything:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY[/ame]

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[url=http://www.csnwashington.com/football-washington-redskins/talk/how-will-redskins-pay-their-draft-picks]How will the Redskins pay their draft picks? | CSN Washington[/url]

Nice read.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=NYCskinfan82;1002869][url=http://www.csnwashington.com/football-washington-redskins/talk/how-will-redskins-pay-their-draft-picks]How will the Redskins pay their draft picks? | CSN Washington[/url]

Nice read.[/quote]

Wow, that is a nice read. I was wondering what kind of moves we were going to have to make to clear room for our draft picks , and he explained it well.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1002737]maybe when you see the offensive guys putting everything on the line, hurt foot/shoulder and all, the defensive guys step up for respected teammates:food-smil[/quote]
What I was getting at, is the offensive production wasn't hugely different over the course of the season, with or without Garcon. I remember somebody posting or linking PPG stats and the offense was impressively consistent overall. The defense improved markedly in the 2nd half though, just in time for Garcon's return to the regular lineup :)

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

The offense's productivity, and particularly the passing game, was markedly higher with Garcon than without him. Based on a review of the game by game stats from last year:

[I]With Garcon:[/I]
Points per Game: 25.44
Yards/play: 6.45
Yards/passing play: 8.91

[I]Without Garcon:[/I]
Points per Game: 24.14
Yards/play: 5.83
Yards/passing play: 6.56

We ran 440 passing plays last year. Over the course of a season, the difference provided by Garcon (8.9/play v. 6.6/play) accounts for ~1000 yards in the passing game.

Over the course of a season, the difference in terms of points with Garcon is almost 3 TD's (20.8). Not huge, but significant in terms of close games -- 20 additional points is 20 additional points. Basically, its a 5% difference in scoring.

[B]Further[/B], in games Garcon played, he was consistently the leading receiving threat whereas, in games he did not play, no single receiver consistently led the team AND, in those seven games, a tight-end was the leader in receiving yards FOUR times (Paulson - yes, that's right PAULSON - was the leading yardage guy twice).

Garcon was the leading receiver in 7 of the 9 games he played. In the seven games he was the leading receiver, he finished with more than 80 yards 5 times and the only time he led with less than 50 yards was in the final game against Dallas where we passed for only 87 yards total - 46 of which were to Garcon.

In the games Garcon didn't play, no receiver broke 100 yards. F. Davis had 90 off 7 catches in week 3 and Paulson 76 on 4 catches week 8. In non-Garcon games, when a wide receiver [I]was[/I] the leading receiver, none topped 50 yards. In the seven non-Garcon games, Moss was the leading receiver once with 46 yards and Morgan twice with 46 & 50 yards.

If you throw out the two games Garcon played injured at less than 100%(Atlanta, first Philly game), the numbers are even more scewed in favor of Garcon as a difference maker.

In this offense, Garcon is a difference maker. He is a focal point and spark. To argue that any other receiver currently on the roster could have the effect Garcon has when healthy is idiotic, obtuse and Goat-like.

If he fully recovers, and plays a full or near full schedule (other than his rookie year, this is the first time he has played less than 14 games), he will easily be one the top offensive producers in the game. Based on his production over the last 7 games, I am hopeful that he will make a complete recovery.

Stepping away from the stat sheet now ...

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin;1002893]The offense's productivity, and particularly the passing game, was markedly higher with Garcon than without him. Based on a review of the game by game stats from last year:

[I]With Garcon:[/I]
Points per Game: 25.44
Yards/play: 6.45
Yards/passing play: 8.91

[I]Without Garcon:[/I]
Points per Game: 24.14
Yards/play: 5.83
Yards/passing play: 6.56

We ran 440 passing plays last year. Over the course of a season, the difference provided by Garcon (8.9/play v. 6.6/play) accounts for ~1000 yards in the passing game.

Over the course of a season, the difference in terms of points with Garcon is almost 3 TD's (20.8). Not huge, but significant in terms of close games -- 20 additional points is 20 additional points. Basically, its a 5% difference in scoring.

[B]Further[/B], in games Garcon played, he was consistently the leading receiving threat whereas, in games he did not play, no single receiver consistently led the team AND, in those seven games, a tight-end was the leader in receiving yards (Paulson - yes, that's right PAULSON - was the leading yardage guy twice).

Garcon was the leading receiver in 7 of the 9 games he played. In the seven games he was the leading receiver, he finished with more than 80 yards 5 times and the only time he led with less than 50 yards was in the final game against Dallas where we passed for only 87 yards total - 46 of which were to Garcon.

In the games Garcon didn't play, no receiver broke 100 yards. F. Davis had 90 off 7 catches in week 3 and Paulson 76 on 4 catches week 8. In non-Garcon games, when a wide receiver [I]was[/I] the leading receiver, none topped 50 yards. In the seven non-Garcon games, Moss was the leading receiver once with 46 yards and Morgan twice with 46 & 50 yards.

If you throw out the two games Garcon played injured at less than 100%(Atlanta, first Philly game), the numbers are even more scewed in favor of Garcon as a difference maker.

In this offense, Garcon is a difference maker. He is a focal point and spark. To argue that any other receiver currently on the roster could have the effect Garcon has when healthy is idiotic, obtuse and Goat-like.

If he fully recovers, and plays a full or near full schedule (other than his rookie year, this is the first time he has played less than 14 games), he will easily be one the top offensive producers in the game. Based on his production over the last 7 games, I am hopeful that he will make a complete recovery.

Stepping away from the stat sheet now ...[/QUOTE]

And many questioned his signing

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1002893]The offense's productivity, and particularly the passing game, was markedly higher with Garcon than without him. Based on a review of the game by game stats from last year:

[I]With Garcon:[/I]
Points per Game: 25.44
Yards/play: 6.45
Yards/passing play: 8.91

[I]Without Garcon:[/I]
Points per Game: 24.14
Yards/play: 5.83
Yards/passing play: 6.56

We ran 440 passing plays last year. Over the course of a season, the difference provided by Garcon (8.9/play v. 6.6/play) accounts for ~1000 yards in the passing game.

Over the course of a season, the difference in terms of points with Garcon is almost 3 TD's (20.8). Not huge, but significant in terms of close games -- 20 additional points is 20 additional points. Basically, its a 5% difference in scoring.

[B]Further[/B], in games Garcon played, he was consistently the leading receiving threat whereas, in games he did not play, no single receiver consistently led the team AND, in those seven games, a tight-end was the leader in receiving yards (Paulson - yes, that's right PAULSON - was the leading yardage guy twice).

Garcon was the leading receiver in 7 of the 9 games he played. In the seven games he was the leading receiver, he finished with more than 80 yards 5 times and the only time he led with less than 50 yards was in the final game against Dallas where we passed for only 87 yards total - 46 of which were to Garcon.

In the games Garcon didn't play, no receiver broke 100 yards. F. Davis had 90 off 7 catches in week 3 and Paulson 76 on 4 catches week 8. In non-Garcon games, when a wide receiver [I]was[/I] the leading receiver, none topped 50 yards. In the seven non-Garcon games, Moss was the leading receiver once with 46 yards and Morgan twice with 46 & 50 yards.

If you throw out the two games Garcon played injured at less than 100%(Atlanta, first Philly game), the numbers are even more scewed in favor of Garcon as a difference maker.

In this offense, Garcon is a difference maker. He is a focal point and spark. To argue that any other receiver currently on the roster could have the effect Garcon has when healthy is idiotic, obtuse and Goat-like.

If he fully recovers, and plays a full or near full schedule (other than his rookie year, this is the first time he has played less than 14 games), he will easily be one the top offensive producers in the game. Based on his production over the last 7 games, I am hopeful that he will make a complete recovery.

Stepping away from the stat sheet now ...[/quote]

Excellent work there, Joe.

[QUOTE=skinsfaninok;1002894]And many questioned his signing[/QUOTE]

At least one here still does.

Oh, by the way, Jabar Gaffney's 2012 stats? 4 receptions, 68 yards. Now there's an impact player!

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

One point difference is markedly higher? As a contrast, the defense limited opponents to several points less in the 2nd half of the season compared to the 1st half, which was my whole point to begin with. Someone posted or linked those stats too after the season, it was a stark contrast. Again, and for the last time, Garcon began suiting up when the defense improved and that explains the wins/losses by a wide margin.

Garcon was the leading receiver in games played because he was targeted often. Simple as that. But he still didn't produce a lot given the targets. Again, it's in the numbers. Tana scored twice as many TDs on fewer receptions. And as the season wore on Garcon was quiet for long stretches.

The legend of Garcon as an elite WR, though hasn't broke 1000 yards with arguably the greatest QB in history throwing to him, is reaching epic proportions in Redskins history. Well, really just among a moron or two.

To the best of my memory, Gaffney was out on a drug thing last year that our FO knew about way before we did, and presumably let him walk because of it. Also to the best of my memory, Garcon hasn't ever produced a better season than Gaffney's last with us. Again, and for the last time, the forest through the trees picture is that Garcon is eating up an enormous amount of cap space and has yet to prove he's worth it. Saying otherwise is just idiocy.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

Garcon accounted for 7.5% of our cap space last year.

Preliminarily, the average points per game previously given is skewed b/c in games Garcon played, the defense scored no points while it scored 21 in games he did not play. Thus, the actual average points per game [I]by the offense[/I] without Garcon was 21.14, over the course of the season that is a difference of ~ 70 points.

Thus, when Garcon was in the game:
The offense scored 20.3% more points;
The offense produced 10.6% more yards; and
The passing game produced 36% more yardage.

Further, when playing, Garcon accounted for 35% of the receiving yards produced in the passing game. As to the total yardage amassed over the year, Garcon accounted for 17.5% of the receiving yards and 9% of the total offensive yards produced.

All of those numbers appear to be greater than 7.5%.

As to his, not "producing given lots of targets", of Hankerson, Morgan, Moss and Garcon. Garcon had the highest average yards/target last year: 9.45 (67 targets); Moss was close at 9.39 (61 targets). Davis (31 targets), Paul (15)and Robinson (19) had slightly higher per target yards but also had significantly less targets. Despite being targeted only six fewer times than Garcon, Moss only had one game with more than 70 yards and averaged only 35 yards/game. On the other hand, Garcon had five games over 80 yards (Two 100+ yard games) and averaged 70 yards/game (take out his two "injury" games and it shoots up to 89 yards/game). On YAC, Garcon was the clear leader - 6.7/catch. Moss was 5.5./catch. No one else was is even in the ballpark.

Your statement that "Garcon was the leading receiver in games played because he was targeted often" as somehow either bolstering your argument or refuting mine is nonsensical and, as with many of your assertions, illogical. By all statistical measures save touchdowns, when he was on the field, Garcon was the best receiver and, thus, was legitimately the primary target. Your assertion that Garcon got his yards in junk minutes is just stupid and you need to show me something to prove it. Here's what I remember about his "junk minutes":

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af7QfugJFlM]Pierre Garcon 2012 Highlights "DC or Nothing" - YouTube[/ame]

Did he score less TD's than Moss. Yup. However, comparing the "with Garcon offense" to the "without Garcon" offense, your assertion that:

[quote=The Goat;1002881][T]he offensive production wasn't hugely different over the course of the season, with or without Garcon.[/quote]

is, simply:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY]Dr Cox - Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong - YouTube[/ame]

And, since you wish only to look at individual scoring without doing any delving into the numbers behind the scoring (with the implicit assertion that point production is the only legitimate bottom line), I suggest the REAL bottom line is wins and losses:

With Garcon: 8-1
Without Garcon: 2-5

Whether the defense played better or not, when Garcon was on the field the Skins won. When he was not, they lost.

In terms of win percentage, offensive scoring, total offensive yardage produced and yardage produced in the passing game, Garcon's impact on the offense easily exceeded the 7.5% of the cap space dedicated to him. As usual, and in any way relevant to actual factual information or logical thought, you are wrong. <cue Dr. Cox>

Finally, I am not asserting that Garcon [I]is[/I] an elite receiver. While I believe he certainly has the potential to be so, elite status is something that is earned with consistent production. Regardless, it is clear to me that, for this offense, Garcon is a game changer and, if he stays healthy, was well worth the money spent.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

You dont need stats to see the offense was simply much better when Garcon was on the field. If you didnt see it, you werent watching.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=Chico23231;1002933]You dont need stats to see the offense was simply much better when Garcon was on the field. If you didnt see it, you werent watching.[/quote]

This.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=Chico23231;1002933]You dont need stats to see the offense was simply much better when Garcon was on the field. If you didnt see it, you werent watching.[/quote]

You know, I absolutely agree with you. Considering the initial spark and excitement he helped create in the first game with that long TD -- splitting and outrunning the Saints defense, the game tying touchdown in the Baltimore game, the incredible grab and run in the memorable Thanksgiving game -- again splitting and outrunning the defense, his performance in the seven game win streak during which he put up big yardage with clutch catches and out produced every other receiver on the team, I thought the assertions that:

[quote=The Goat;1002592]Garcon made little to no impact in several games (outside the ones he missed completely), getting yardage in junk minutes but otherwise being very quiet[;][/quote]
[quote=The Goat;1002881]… the offensive production wasn't hugely different over the course of the season, with or without Garcon[;][/quote]
[quote=The Goat;1002897]… as the season wore on Garcon was quiet for long stretches[;][/quote] and
[quote=The Goat;1002897]Garcon is eating up an enormous amount of cap space and has yet to prove he's worth it [/quote]
… were self-evidently stupid.

However, since I “know absolutely nothing about the game football”, because I am a “moron” for thinking Garcon is a potentially elite receiver, and it would be sheer “idiocy” to believe that Garcon was well worth his cap impact, I just wanted to see how the stats stacked up in light of my moronic and idiotic assertion that Garcon’s in-game impact has comfortably exceeded his cap impact.

After doing so, I feel comforted that my complete lack of football knowledge didn’t stop me from appreciating what a difference maker Garcon is in this offense. Sorry if my pedantic investigation of facts and figures may have bored those who are not as football impaired as me.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

No i got you Joe, i saw the context of the last couple pages.

I just think sometimes put the stats aside (isnt directed at you Joe, this is for everybody) and look at the the chemistry between the team and offensive flow of the game. There is no doubt an impact in playcalling and the defense was more on their heels. Garcon is a guy defensive cordinators have to account for on every play. The affect on the field was night and day imo.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

Hatters gone Hatt..

Garcon is a beast. Point blank.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=The Goat;1002897]One point difference is markedly higher? As a contrast, the defense limited opponents to several points less in the 2nd half of the season compared to the 1st half, which was my whole point to begin with. Someone posted or linked those stats too after the season, it was a stark contrast. Again, and for the last time, Garcon began suiting up when the defense improved and that explains the wins/losses by a wide margin.

Garcon was the leading receiver in games played because he was targeted often. Simple as that. But he still didn't produce a lot given the targets. Again, it's in the numbers. Tana scored twice as many TDs on fewer receptions. And as the season wore on Garcon was quiet for long stretches.

The legend of Garcon as an elite WR, though hasn't broke 1000 yards with arguably the greatest QB in history throwing to him, is reaching epic proportions in Redskins history. Well, really just among a moron or two.

To the best of my memory, Gaffney was out on a drug thing last year that our FO knew about way before we did, and presumably let him walk because of it. Also to the best of my memory, Garcon hasn't ever produced a better season than Gaffney's last with us. Again, and for the last time, the forest through the trees picture is that Garcon is eating up an enormous amount of cap space and has yet to prove he's worth it. Saying otherwise is just idiocy.[/quote]

Goat you're very bad at thinking.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

yep. we've made some bad signings, but garcon ain't one of them.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=Schneed10;1002990]Goat you're very bad at thinking.[/quote]

Love it.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=Schneed10;1002990]Goat you're very bad at thinking.[/quote]

Or maybe he excels at over-thinking?

Like others have already said, watch the games, it doesn't take a genius to see the impact Garcon had when he was playing.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

I'll leave it this way: if the defense hadn't dramatically improved in the 2nd half of the season, our win/loss improvement would NOT have happened either, period. Focusing on Garcon instead as the reason for improvement is asinine. He "added" appx on point per game, while the defense held opponents to several points less in the 2nd half of the season compared to the 1st half.

The man-crushing on this guy is beyond me. The offense scored nearly as many points without him. Was it a different looking offense? Sure. Maybe. I don't really care. Points win games the last time I checked.

If anything London should be the focus here. He allegedly took a much larger role in scheming through the 2nd half of the season, and he played extremely well as the foot/ankle injury healed.

And again, the notion Garcon has shown anything to be an elite WR up to this point, deserving of his contract, is just absurd. He scored 4 touchdowns and was quiet for long stretches in the games he played. You sorcerers who put all the offensive improvement on him (that 1 point per game lol) are deep into the magic on this one.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=The Goat;1003007]I'll leave it this way: if the defense hadn't dramatically improved in the 2nd half of the season, our win/loss improvement would NOT have happened either, period. Focusing on Garcon instead as the reason for improvement is asinine. He "added" appx on point per game, while the defense held opponents to several points less in the 2nd half of the season compared to the 1st half.

The man-crushing on this guy is beyond me. The offense scored nearly as many points without him. Was it a different looking offense? Sure. Maybe. I don't really care. Points win games the last time I checked.

If anything London should be the focus here. He allegedly took a much larger role in scheming through the 2nd half of the season, and he played extremely well as the foot/ankle injury healed.

And again, the notion Garcon has shown anything to be an elite WR up to this point, deserving of his contract, is just absurd. He scored 4 touchdowns and was quiet for long stretches in the games he played. You sorcerers who put all the offensive improvement on him (that 1 point per game lol) are deep into the magic on this one.[/quote]

If you arguing that Garcon is not an elite receiver and not deserving of an elite receiver's contract, you have a point and I somewhat agree with you. However if you are arguing that Garcon is not a difference maker, I completely disagree with you and you can see it in how defenses adjust to Garcon allowing the other receivers more space.

Garcon is not elite, but neither is Mike Wallace and he received an elite receivers pay. Garcon is a difference maker at receiver.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

If Garcon can stay healthy I see him catching over 80 passes in this offense. Easy. If you take his numbers from his last 6 games last year it projects to 88-1266-8. I'd call that elite production if he can put up those types of numbers.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

Here's to hoping his foot is at 100% .. the guy is pretty fun to watch and important to this offense.. no one else on the team, with the exception of moss at times, made the grabs he did and had RAC success like he did.. he's our best recieiver and IMO prolly top 15 in the league

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=Mattyk;1003014]If Garcon can stay healthy I see him catching over 80 passes in this offense. Easy. If you take his numbers from his last 6 games last year it projects to [B]88-1266-8. I'd call that elite production if he can put up those types of numbers.[/B][/quote]

Agreed. It's what we all want to see.

In fact, that kind of season would make Garcon a value signing/player for us.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=The Goat;1003017]Agreed. It's what we all want to see.

In fact, that kind of season would make Garcon a value signing/player for us.[/quote]

He probably would have done that last year if not for his injury. Can't fault him for getting hurt.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=Mattyk;1003018]He probably would have done that last year if not for his injury. Can't fault him for getting hurt.[/quote]

Well hopefully Garcon won't have to play the what if game. Because both him and Fred Davis need to stay healthy for this offense to be almost unstoppable, (of course the other injured star needs to be healthy too). I have always held on to the concept that being elite at your possession means you stay healthy. I honestly do not believe the Redskins have any elite players yet. I see a lot of players that have elite talent, (RG3, Trent, Morris, Garcon and Davis to name a few) just not elite production at this point in their careers. But I hold elite to mean you are the best of the best.

Re: Redskins 2013 Salary Cap Status
 

[quote=The Goat;1003007]I'll leave it this way: if the defense hadn't dramatically improved in the 2nd half of the season, our win/loss improvement would NOT have happened either, period. Focusing on Garcon instead as the reason for improvement is asinine. He "added" appx on point per game, [COLOR="Red"][B][No ... as to [U]the offense[/U], there was a 4+ point differential. Apparently, the term "Reading is Fundamental" was not something emphasized in your schooling.][/B][/COLOR] while the defense held opponents to several points less in the 2nd half of the season compared to the 1st half.

The man-crushing on this guy is beyond me. The offense scored nearly as many points without him. [COLOR="red"][B][WRONG - See above, "the offense" scored 20% less when he wasn't in the game. Geez, you know, there are only so many times I can post the Dr. Cox video][/B][/COLOR]. Was it a different looking offense? Sure. Maybe. I don't really care. Points win games the last time I checked.

If anything London should be the focus here. He allegedly took a much larger role in scheming through the 2nd half of the season, and he played extremely well as the foot/ankle injury healed.

And again, the notion Garcon has shown anything to be an elite WR up to this point, deserving of his contract, is just absurd. He scored 4 touchdowns and was quiet for long stretches in the games he played. You sorcerers who put all the offensive improvement on him (that 1 point per game lol) are deep into the magic on this one.[/quote]

And I'll leave it this way:

You can move your rhetorical target around as much as you want (Garcon has an inflated cap impact, no real impact on offensive production, his TD production was less than other receivers); the bottom line is this - Mr. "Points win games" - the [I][B]offense[/B][/I] produced an additional 4+ points/game when Garcon played. Thus, [B][I]the offense[/I][/B] produced 20% more points when Garcon played than when he didn't. Period.

Without that point differential, and conceeding the defense's vastly improved play, the Skins lose the NYG game (a one point victory) and the Baltimore game (a three point victory)(By the way, the margin of victory in BOTH those games was provided, in part, thanks to a Garcon TD). Without those wins, the Skins don't win the NFC East championship. Thus, [I]even with the improved defensive play[/I], no Garcon, no championship. Double exclamation point.

As much as you want to say others are putting "all the offensive improvement on him", you are blatantly, obtusely, idiotically, irrationally, stupidly ignorantly, foolishly, baselessly and moronically denying (1) the existence of any difference in the team's offensive production when Garcon played as opposed to when he didn't; and (2) the significant role Garcon played in the Championship run.