Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

If I never hear the term dumpster fire again I'll be happy, that and 40 burger... where the F did that come from anyway?

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[url=http://www.csnwashington.com/redskinsblog/gruden-sees-mccoy-getting-more-confident?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo]Gruden sees McCoy getting more confident | Comcast SportsNet Washington[/url]

I really like Colt. Humble and mature. Call me a homer but I'm already hoping he earns the starting spot for years to come. So hard to find a franchise QB and we're due for some good fortune after so many gdamn disappointments.

If Colt becomes the guy, we can focus on other team weaknesses in FA/draft and be competitive at least next year.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=Rotten1980;1097630][url=http://www.csnwashington.com/redskinsblog/gruden-sees-mccoy-getting-more-confident?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo]Gruden sees McCoy getting more confident | Comcast SportsNet Washington[/url]

I really like Colt. Humble and mature. Call me a homer but I'm already hoping he earns the starting spot for years to come. So hard to find a franchise QB and we're due for some good fortune after so many gdamn disappointments.

If Colt becomes the guy, we can focus on other team weaknesses in FA/draft and be competitive at least next year.[/quote]

My friend, Colt is not nor ever will be a franchise QB. One characteristic of a franchise QB is that he has to have an arm so strong that he can threaten the defense with a deep ball. He doesn't have to throw deep, he just has to have the threat. Without this threat, defenses cheat against the run and the short pass alike.

The Texas Noodle's arm doesn't threaten even my grandma.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=Lotus;1097633]My friend, Colt is not nor ever will be a franchise QB. One characteristic of a franchise QB is that he has to have an arm so strong that he can threaten the defense with a deep ball. He doesn't have to throw deep, he just has to have the threat. Without this threat, defenses cheat against the run and the short pass alike.

The Texas Noodle's arm doesn't threaten even my grandma.[/quote]

I've seen several guys with average arms that were great QB's. Some are in the HOF. Not saying Colt is one of those guys cause he's not, but he has enough arm to get the job done.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=Lotus;1097633]My friend, Colt is not nor ever will be a franchise QB. One characteristic of a franchise QB is that he has to have an arm so strong that he can threaten the defense with a deep ball. He doesn't have to throw deep, he just has to have the threat. Without this threat, defenses cheat against the run and the short pass alike.

The Texas Noodle's arm doesn't threaten even my grandma.[/quote]

Well sir, there's some wiggle in the noodle debate. P Manning doesn't have much of an arm these days, but accuracy and intelligence offsets the one weakness.

Maybe Colt can be a Chad Pennington type QB, perfect for a system with high accuracy and football IQ. Or maybe he needs to hit the weights lol.

Stop killing my optimism.ds

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=Lotus;1097633]My friend, Colt is not nor ever will be a franchise QB. One characteristic of a franchise QB is that he has to have an arm so strong that he can threaten the defense with a deep ball. He doesn't have to throw deep, he just has to have the threat. Without this threat, defenses cheat against the run and the short pass alike.

The Texas Noodle's arm doesn't threaten even my grandma.[/quote]

I don't know about the franchise QB part but I think you're bashing him just for the sake of bashing him and his arm isnt any where near as you describe it.

[YT][ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfSlzVrVgh8[/ame][/YT]
[YT][ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke2_hD_Ws6E[/ame][/YT]

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=Rotten1980;1097637]Well sir, there's some wiggle in the noodle debate. P Manning doesn't have much of an arm these days, but accuracy and intelligence offsets the one weakness.

Maybe Colt can be a Chad Pennington type QB, perfect for a system with high accuracy and football IQ. Or maybe he needs to hit the weights lol.

Stop killing my optimism.ds[/quote]

I agree that Peyton's arm is not the strongest, but certainly you are not equating his arm with Colt's flimsy equipment.

And in my argument I was actually thinking about Pennington. He failed as a franchise QB and became a journeyman backup precisely because of his weak arm.

Here's some optimism: since even a blind squirrel finds a nut, I am hoping that we can be lucky at QB for once. Maybe we will bring in Bradford and he will change and become durable. Or maybe we'll bring in Locker and find that he has finally gotten his act together. Or maybe someone else - QB's are unpredictably released every year.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1097636]I've seen several guys with [B]average arms[/B] that were great QB's. Some are in the HOF. Not saying Colt is one of those guys cause he's not, but he has enough arm to get the job done.[/quote]

IMO McCoy does not have an average arm. McCoy's arm is so weak that it is sometimes painful to watch.

Name one HoF QB who had not just a weak arm, but an arm as weak as McCoy's wet paper towel of an arm.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;1097638]I don't know about the franchise QB part but I think you're bashing him just for the sake of bashing him and his arm isnt any where near as you describe it.

[/quote]

I'm not bashing him to bash him. He's my favorite QB on our roster.

I think his lack of arm strength is obvious and so do several other Warpath members. Think what you will.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[url=http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24865895/report-jay-gruden-is-done-with-robert-griffin-iii]Report: Jay Gruden is done with Robert Griffin III - CBSSports.com[/url]

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=Lotus;1097640]I agree that Peyton's arm is not the strongest, but certainly you are not equating his arm with Colt's flimsy equipment.

And in my argument I was actually thinking about Pennington. He failed as a franchise QB and became a journeyman backup precisely because of his weak arm.

Here's some optimism: since even a blind squirrel finds a nut, I am hoping that we can be lucky at QB for once. Maybe we will bring in Bradford and he will change and become durable. Or maybe we'll bring in Locker and find that he has finally gotten his act together. Or maybe someone else - QB's are unpredictably released every year.[/quote]

Pennington started for the Dolphins late in his career and was really good, only injuries held him back. Shoulder injury I think.

Seriously, can't a 28 yr old QB improve his arm with some strength training?? Colt looks like a noodle, get in the effing weight room whitebread.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

Ryan Leaf was just released from prison. Our qb problem is over! All he did was hit the weights and study our offense for two years. I am so excited. Its not to late to ask Santa for a Leaf jersey either. Its amazing how things can turn around so fast. HTTR!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=Rotten1980;1097646][B]Pennington started for the Dolphins late in his career and was really good, only injuries held him back.[/B] Shoulder injury I think.

Seriously, can't a 28 yr old QB improve his arm with some strength training?? Colt looks like a noodle, get in the effing weight room whitebread.[/quote]

True. But Pennington was not the Fins anointed franchise QB, he was a we-need-someone starter.

Just like Colt, I liked Pennington. They both read defenses well, get the ball out in rhythm, and take care of the ball. But arm strength limited Pennington's career and it does Colt, too.

BTW I think the Rams' Austin Davis, who I watched a lot in college, is in the same boat. Smart guy, hard worker, accurate short game, but lacking a scary arm.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=Lotus;1097614]I believe that you and mooby have solved the team name issue. We can change the name to Washington Dumpster Fires. The flames logo will look cool.[/quote]

Brilliant! A fresh start is exactly what this team needs.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=Rotten1980;1097646]Pennington started for the Dolphins late in his career and was really good, only injuries held him back. Shoulder injury I think.

[B]Seriously, can't a 28 yr old QB improve his arm with some strength training?? Colt looks like a noodle, get in the effing weight room whitebread.[/quote]
[/B]
LOL....No. Colt could do all the arm exercises he wants, it won't improve his arm.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

option 3 - get rid of both of them.... Not saying I would do it....

[quote=Rotten1980;1097644][url=http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24865895/report-jay-gruden-is-done-with-robert-griffin-iii]Report: Jay Gruden is done with Robert Griffin III - CBSSports.com[/url][/quote]

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=Lotus;1097641]IMO McCoy does not have an average arm. McCoy's arm is so weak that it is sometimes painful to watch.

Name one HoF QB who had not just a weak arm, but an arm as weak as McCoy's wet paper towel of an arm.[/quote]

Give the guy SOME credit. Weak arm and all, he's the best QB on the roster. Dan Fouts didn't have a strong arm at all and he's in the HOF.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=Rotten1980;1097646]Pennington started for the Dolphins late in his career and was really good, only injuries held him back. Shoulder injury I think.

Seriously, can't a 28 yr old QB improve his arm with some strength training?? Colt looks like a noodle, get in the effing weight room whitebread.[/quote]

No, but plenty of QB's can play a great game and don't need to throw rockets around the field.

Romo
Wilson
Brady

All of these guys don't have the strongest arms. Still excel.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=VTSkins1961;1097657]option 3 - get rid of both of them.... Not saying I would do it....[/quote]

It looks like Gruden's going to draw a line in the sand on this one. Should be an interesting off season over in Ashburn.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=VTSkins1961;1097657]option 3 - get rid of both of them.... Not saying I would do it....[/quote]

Pretty disappointed in both of them, although I still say RG has at least given us some good times, Gruden's been a complete failure so far.

[B]If RG goes to another franchise that coaches him to potential (especially if it's Dallas, meanwhile Gruden fuddles around here without getting results from QB or whoever he turns to next, I hope to God Snyder sees the light and sends Gruden packing with tail pinned to his dumbass.[/B]

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1097658]Give the guy SOME credit. Weak arm and all, he's the best QB on the roster. Dan Fouts didn't have a strong arm at all and he's in the HOF.[/quote]

Come on. Fouts' arm, while limited, was much stronger than Colt's.

But I will say this: Colt is currently our best QB. We have a timing offense and he has the best timing. He takes care of the ball. He is accurate on short routes. And it seems that his teammates like him. There are a lot of positives regarding Colt.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=Rotten1980;1097661]Pretty disappointed in both of them, although I still say RG has at least given us some good times, Gruden's been a complete failure so far.

[B]If RG goes to another franchise that coaches him to potential (especially if it's Dallas, meanwhile Gruden fuddles around here without getting results from QB or whoever he turns to next, I hope to God Snyder sees the light and sends Gruden packing with tail pinned to his dumbass.[/B][/quote]

I'm going to trust Gruden on this one. He's actually played the position. He's also been coaching offense for a while now. I'm going to trust that he knows better than anyone one of us, or anyone in the Redskins front office, that Griffin isn't starter material.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

Not Gruden fault but RG3 was not handled the right way from the get go. Coming out of college everyone knew he wasn't a "pro style" QB. It would have been better not to have him start from day 1 and just develop him as a pocket passer, not allow him to do all the comercials and earn his way to be the starter. Should have had him just focus on football. He will never be the QB he could have been coming out of college...too many injuries..damaged goods at this point. Hindsight is everything......

[quote=skinsfan69;1097664]I'm going to trust Gruden on this one. He's actually played the position. He's also been coaching offense for a while now. I'm going to trust that he knows better than anyone one of us, or anyone in the Redskins front office, that Griffin isn't starter material.[/quote]

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1097664]I'm going to trust Gruden on this one. He's actually played the position. He's also been coaching offense for a while now. I'm going to trust that he knows better than anyone one of us, or anyone in the Redskins front office, that Griffin isn't starter material.[/quote]

Word. But still. Just imagine RG balling for the Cowboys in 2-3 years. Jones is already Jonesing for him and one thing about the Cowboys, they take care of their QB and don't hesitate bringing in more coaches, lots of them, to find the right chemistry.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=Lotus;1097663]Come on. Fouts' arm, while limited, was much stronger than Colt's.

But I will say this: Colt is currently our best QB. We have a timing offense and he has the best timing. He takes care of the ball. He is accurate on short routes. And it seems that his teammates like him. There are a lot of positives regarding Colt.[/quote]

this is all arm chair coaching from me but i think kirk does a better job going through his progressions. i think colt hesitates a bit more than kirk if the 1st read isnt open. both do not hesitate if the 1st read is open.

kirk would throw guys open sometimes. making an above average play.

colt takes what the defense gives and can throw to an open guy but doesnt throw guys open ... if that makes sense.

a re-tooled RG3 = HOF though ...

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

@AdamSchefter: There's a "real chance" Robert Griffin III will be Washington's starting QB before this season is over, per source.

m.twitter.com/AdamSchefter

I want him to succeed so that trade wasn't a huge waste. Gruden needs to show me something that he can tailor an offense to Griffins skills while developing his pocket skills
Gruden touted himself as a quarterback guy. I need to see it. Griffin has been terrible. Cousins has been banished. Now Colt is supposed to give me hope?
Snyder deserves some blame. But give him credit where its due: he has tried different ideas. Given his coaches anything they ask for. He does meddle. I dont know.... maybe fire everyone, gut the roster, and bring in a GM to call ALL the shots.
sorry. Ranting here..

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1097660]It looks like Gruden's going to draw a line in the sand on this one. Should be an interesting off season over in Ashburn.[/quote]

Draw a line, my foot. Gruden works for Dan Snyder and, whether he likes it or not, RGIII is a special case.

Snyder should tell Gruden that RGIII [U]will[/U] be on the team in 2015, that Gruden [U]must[/U] hire a QB Coach, that he (Snyder) expects to receive regular reports from Gruden on RGIII's progress, and that Gruden needs to watch his mouth when he talks to the media about RGIII. Snyder made a big investment in RGIII and he has a right to ensure that every reasonable measure is taken to [U]try[/U] to get RGIII on the field as the starting QB of his franchise.

Gruden has not done all he can do to get RGIII ready to play and now he's trying to blow off his responsibility for that objective which he surely must have been given when he was hired. I am not impressed.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

I am all for that as long as the QB coach isn't named Zorn.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

Its been very obvious with RG3 from the beginning that reading a defense and pocket awareness weren't his strengths. Why then did we choose a coach who's offense revolves entirely on these skills and no others? At least Shanty moved the pocket and therefore the passer. This was without the read option...
Seems like a bad marriage from the get go.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=mcludka;1097676]@AdamSchefter: There's a "real chance" Robert Griffin III will be Washington's starting QB before this season is over, per source.

m.twitter.com/AdamSchefter

I want him to succeed so that trade wasn't a huge waste. Gruden needs to show me something that he can tailor an offense to Griffins skills while developing his pocket skills
Gruden touted himself as a quarterback guy. I need to see it. Griffin has been terrible. Cousins has been banished. Now Colt is supposed to give me hope?
Snyder deserves some blame. But give him credit where its due: he has tried different ideas. Given his coaches anything they ask for. He does meddle. I dont know.... maybe fire everyone, gut the roster, and bring in a GM to call ALL the shots.
sorry. Ranting here..[/quote]
^ This post I agree completely. Of course this comes the same day as the report that gruden is done with RGIII and wants him off the team.

I'm embarrassed that this franchise just beat up on the guy so much. He's recovering from 2 major injuries and has played what all of 5 games in this coaches system. He's taken more criticism than Jason Campbell, D-mac, and Jeff George combined. Really I like Robert and I feel bad he's been benched but I absolutely do not agree with how this 24 year old is the whipping boy for the failure of this offense. We seriously have buried him in the media like J-marcus russel or Ryan Leaf. Thing is the kid isn't even an off the field issue and we treat him like he's out being Johnny Football and Ray Carruth. It's disgusting PR wise. Gruden is the coach he needs to act like one...if you really are done with Robert handle the issue internally don't bury the guy in the media because that F**ks us when we do try to make a move. He is under contract and it's lose lose if we trade him or release him.

It just bugs me man, it's so frustrating.......If you are this Quarterback guy....get him the footwork and the skills needed to up his game. Kirk could use the work too no one seems to be able to make the reads Jay wants. I expect colt to have flashes of Brilliance he's been in a pro style offense and he's been in the NFL longer..pretty sure Mike Holmgren drafted the guy he's no slouch. Then again there was another backup that understood a certain offense better as well...His name was Todd Collins. Sorry guys im ranting..

Short story I feel like both QB's should at least be on this roster until preseason....see how they've progressed and decide from there...but I think we're taking a giant crap sammich by releasing or trading RGIII at this point we'd be giving him away for nothing.

Side note: if he became the next Brad Johnson I'd be livid.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1097677]Draw a line, my foot. Gruden works for Dan Snyder and, whether he likes it or not, RGIII is a special case.

Snyder should tell Gruden that RGIII [U]will[/U] be on the team in 2015, that Gruden [U]must[/U] hire a QB Coach, that he (Snyder) expects to receive regular reports from Gruden on RGIII's progress, and that Gruden needs to watch his mouth when he talks to the media about RGIII. Snyder made a big investment in RGIII and he has a right to ensure that every reasonable measure is taken to [U]try[/U] to get RGIII on the field as the starting QB of his franchise.

Gruden has not done all he can do to get RGIII ready to play and now he's trying to blow off his responsibility for that objective which he surely must have been given when he was hired. I am not impressed.[/quote]
This is an dangerous area.....I wouldnt show complete favoritism to Robert but rather inform the coach that attitude reflects leadership.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=mcludka;1097683]Its been very obvious with RG3 from the beginning that [B][U]reading a defense and pocket awareness [/U]weren't his strengths. Why then did we choose a coach who's offense revolves entirely on these skills and no others?[/B] At least Shanty moved the pocket and therefore the passer. This was without the read option...
Seems like a bad marriage from the get go.[/quote]


Because these are things a pro QB needs to be successful. [U] Long term[/U], you can not have a good pro offense without a QB who doesn't have these things. NFL defenses adjust too fast to have a QB who depends on rollouts and read option. I could see it in the 49 game, the outside lineman were staying at home and were right in RG3s face on the few rollouts they did.

The CFL style mobile QB was never going to work in the NFL. People were fooled in 2012 because of RG3, Kaepernick, Newton, and Russel had success. However it was short lived.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=Hijinx;1097688]Because these are things a pro QB needs to be successful. [U] Long term[/U], you can not have a good pro offense without a QB who doesn't have these things. NFL defenses adjust too fast to have a QB who depends on rollouts and read option. I could see it in the 49 game, the outside lineman were staying at home and were right in RG3s face on the few rollouts they did.

The CFL style mobile QB was never going to work in the NFL. People were fooled in 2012 because of RG3, Kaepernick, Newton, and Russel had success. However it was short lived.[/quote]

it takes experience, you can't judge them until 8 years in.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1097677]Draw a line, my foot. Gruden works for Dan Snyder and, whether he likes it or not, RGIII is a special case.

Snyder should tell Gruden that RGIII [U]will[/U] be on the team in 2015, that Gruden [U]must[/U] hire a QB Coach, that he (Snyder) expects to receive regular reports from Gruden on RGIII's progress, and that Gruden needs to watch his mouth when he talks to the media about RGIII. Snyder made a big investment in RGIII and he has a right to ensure that every reasonable measure is taken to [U]try[/U] to get RGIII on the field as the starting QB of his franchise.

Gruden has not done all he can do to get RGIII ready to play and now he's trying to blow off his responsibility for that objective which he surely must have been given when he was hired. I am not impressed.[/quote]

If this is true - this is why we will continue to suck forever more. Snyder doesn't know shit about quarterbacks. He doesn't know shit about how to coach a football team - he is a terrible evaluator of talent. RG3 has been benched by two different head coaches in two years. If RG3 is here next year he will almost certainly be benched again. I don't know what they see in this guy, but i am not a professional nor a scout or anything of that nature. I don't know why they need to see more of RG3 to know what they have. The NFL has saw that he is a poor quarterback, with poor fundamentals and mechanics. Former NFL Head Coaches have anonymously said that the Redskins made a tremendous error in drafting Griffin.

Snyder can't continue to bring in coaches, and then when those coaches decide that RG3 sucks, as all coaches will / should, he can't keep firing them and hoping the next guy can make something out of nothing. You can't put lip-stick on a pig. There are some big egos in Washington. Nobody really wants to admit that RG3 was a pig in a poke...

I don't believe he is starting QB caliber or else he would not have been benched two years straight. How many more years do we fail to win a game before people finally give up on RG3? His win-loss record is venturing into Jamarcus Russell territory...at what point can Snyder say enough is enough? 4 years? 10 years?

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=mcludka;1097683]Its been very obvious with RG3 from the beginning that reading a defense and pocket awareness weren't his strengths. Why then did we choose a coach who's offense revolves entirely on these skills and no others? At least Shanty moved the pocket and therefore the passer. This was without the read option...
Seems like a bad marriage from the get go.[/quote]

He also can't move in the pocket without taking his eyes off the receivers down field, or scramble left and throw, or accept blame with out throwing his team under the bus.

How easy is a guy that has all those limitations to defend?

Our defense looked great against the same type of qb with a better skill set in the 49ers game.

The measuring stick should be our defense. If we can defend it, it sucks. The Seattle game is a bit of an outlier but our d kept us in the game. If our olbs were strict on their responsibilities we would have been good that game.

Luck made the same defense in the very next week look like the worst in the league because he isn't a one trick pony who runs plays with a single read.

What about Griffin has given anybody the notion he can develop into a pocket passer?

The best running qb right now is Wilson and he has an awesome line. Seattle isn't even a top 10 offense. Does that means defenses have adjusted to the running qb? Idk. There is a strong argument though, that if Griffin matches Wilson's abilities we still aren't going to be as effective as an more traditional offense with a qb who can pick apart an offense.

The NFL has changed, it isn't 2012. A qb that can progress through reads and make changes preplay has a higher ceiling than one who doesnt.

On a tangent, Griffin doesn't have that intangible slickness to keep himself alive like Wilson.

I would love to be wrong on this.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1097689]it takes experience, you can't judge them until 8 years in.[/quote]

What?

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

RGs winning the maturity battle. Grudens biggest problem tho is so far it hasn't mattered who plays QB because we didnt score when it mattered, didn't score enough to win that week. He and the team look unfocused and unprepared, stupid mental errors all around, blown coverages and stupid plays called AND LATE PLAYCALLS. That shits varsity level.

Snyder is who matters though and who knows what's spinning there

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=SmootSmack;1097694]What?[/quote]

I think this is a passive agressive remark in regards to how we feel Gruden can't be judged on his first year alone.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

I hate to say this, but Gruden's first year is reminding me a lot of McDaniels first year in Denver, when he went in and drove Cutler out of town and ended up making a mess. I know it is not the same exact situation, but I think they are somewhat similar.

Re: The everything Gruden thread
 

[quote=Gary84Clark;1097689]it takes experience, you can't judge them until 8 years in.[/quote]

Easily the stupidest statement I have ever read.