Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[QUOTE=MTK;1295341]Definitely bigger issues but QB will also be under the microscope fair or not. If we're going to praise him when he plays well it's only fair game to critique him when he doesn't.[/QUOTE]I agree on both, just seems like a ton of piling on for a guy with 5 nfl starts, who is 2-3 as a starter, and led the team to more consistent scoring then we have seen in 5 years.

Personally I would have liked them jumping up for Mac jones, and they definitely should have drafted a guy in the 3rd, but for this season as it is, Heinicke has not been the biggest failure of this staff.

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Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

Im trying to mute my criticism of him but I think he is frustrating Turner.

- [B]He doesnt see the field well[/B]. Theres a video of his eyes circulating on the net as an example of how "quickly" he goes through his progressions. But I dont see it as a QB going through his progressions, more like a young inexperienced QB not knowing what he is seeing and panicing.

Can you call it going through progressions if the end result is he doesnt actually throw the ball and tucks/scrambles?

- [B]he doesnt throw with anticipation[/B]. rarely do we see him releasing the ball before a receiver comes out of their break. Receivers are running routes to be timed and in rythm with how many steps the QB takes in his drop back. 3 step = quick short route, 5 or 7 steps = longer routes. Rarely does he release the ball on time in rythm with the play call.

- [B]he creates the need to scramble[/B]. Like above, he holds the ball bc he doesnt get the ball out on time and instead has to see if his receiver is open open and won the route before he throws it.

Turner might as well not even call plays and just tell Heinike to scramble around and see if a receiver can run backyard routes to get open. Everything on this offense is "off schedule" plays. Double edge sword.

- [B]he chooses bad "down and distance" moments to go YOLO[/B]. It was a 30-22 score, 1 possession game vs Atlanta, when he chucked a 50/50 ball to McLaurin for the miraculous TD.

It was 1st and 10 from Atlanta's 17 yard line with 6 mins left.

[B]You dont throw up 50/50 balls in the red zone on a 1 possession game ON 1st DOWN in the 4th quarter. [/B]

Saints game, tied 13-13, its 2nd and 7 and we have the ball on Saints 16 yard line. [B]You dont throw a 50/50 ball to Samuel on 2nd and 7 in the red zone.[/B]

Saints game, score is 20-16 Saints ... we are on our 2 yard line ... you dont stare down then force a throw to Deandre Carter who is blanketed. [B]You dont throw 50/50 balls from your 2 yard line in a 4 point game. [/B]

-[B] Defenses, like the Bills, should start playing single high safety and just defend the first 20 yards from the LOS[/B]. Things are going to get harder for him. he cant push the ball down field outside the numbers.

-----------------------

With all that said ... im trying to embrace the positives he does bring. He competes and cares. He can scramble and make plays with his legs.

He can see and throw the easier "training wheel" routes like crosses, slants, digs. Seams and post routes are his best medium to long throw he seems to see and throw okay.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[QUOTE=Chief X_Phackter;1295350]Checkdown Charlie would be ok with me as long as he's not checking it down to the opponent. This defense isn't good enough to give extra possessions to the other team.[/QUOTE]The defense was supposed to be, and has the talent to be. Whatever the reason it isn't, is the biggest issue right now.

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Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;1295351]Its a double edged sword with Heineke or Fitz... Both will throw picks but they will also throw TD's downfield..[/quote]

The two sides of the double edged sword right now are the offense and the defense.

They are both responsible for where this team is. It can be argued that one is more responsible than the other, or that there have been some bright spots on both sides, but the truth is, neither is very good so far.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[QUOTE=Chief X_Phackter;1295364]The two sides of the double edged sword right now are the offense and the defense.



They are both responsible for where this team is. It can be argued that one is more responsible than the other, or that there have been some bright spots on both sides, but the truth is, neither is very good so far.[/QUOTE]The offense ranks 12th in points. Defense 31st. There is clear blame to be placed. If in August it was said our offense would be top 15 in points scored, all of us would have been happy.


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Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1295374]The offense ranks 12th in points. Defense 31st. There is clear blame to be placed. If in August it was said our offense would be top 15 in points scored, all of us would have been happy.


Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk[/quote]

As we all know stats never tell the entire story. The offense has put the defense in some bad situations w/ turnovers. Plenty of blame to go around on both sides of the ball.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

The offense has been solid but it has also scored some garbage time points as well like the bills game

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;1295378]As we all know stats never tell the entire story. The offense has put the defense in some bad situations w/ turnovers. Plenty of blame to go around on both sides of the ball.[/QUOTE]You can't convince me that it's equally on the offense and defense. If the defense doesn't give up a hail Mary with no effort, we win the saints game. If the defense makes one stop in the last 5 minutes, I think we have a good shot to win the saints game. If Heinicke played the whole Chargers game, maybe we win that one too. Fitz did nothing the first half.

Heinicke isn't Favre, he probably isn't the answer, but the defense needs to get its act together. Not that it will.

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Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[QUOTE=CRedskinsRule;1295380]You can't convince me that it's equally on the offense and defense. If the defense doesn't give up a hail Mary with no effort, we win the saints game. If the defense makes one stop in the last 5 minutes, I think we have a good shot to win the saints game. If Heinicke played the whole Chargers game, maybe we win that one too. Fitz did nothing the first half.

Heinicke isn't Favre, he probably isn't the answer, but the defense needs to get its act together. Not that it will.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]


Totally agree, and Ill just make it simple. We are 12th in points scored per game. We are 31st in points allowed. End of argument. Defense is responsible for this train wreck.

[IMG]https://media1.giphy.com/media/wJKQCSeexuO5y/giphy.gif[/IMG]

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

The D has been fucking atrocious. The offense has been more than serviceable.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1295380]You can't convince me that it's equally on the offense and defense. If the defense doesn't give up a hail Mary with no effort, we win the saints game. If the defense makes one stop in the last 5 minutes, I think we have a good shot to win the saints game. If Heinicke played the whole Chargers game, maybe we win that one too. Fitz did nothing the first half.

Heinicke isn't Favre, he probably isn't the answer, but the defense needs to get its act together. Not that it will.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk[/quote]

Do we win the Saints game if we don't give up the Hail Mary?

Heinicke was throwing picks with a complete lack of pressure on him.

Not saying he might not have that Kirk Cousins moment where everything clicks and he starts slinging guns all day but until it happens we can't sit around hoping it will.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[QUOTE=mooby;1295386]Do we win the Saints game if we don't give up the Hail Mary?



Heinicke was throwing picks with a complete lack of pressure on him.



Not saying he might not have that Kirk Cousins moment where everything clicks and he starts slinging guns all day but until it happens we can't sit around hoping it will.[/QUOTE]Yes we win the game minus that hail Mary, especially if they could defend the 72 yard uncontested pitch and toss Td, stop the Saints on their last TD drive.

I do think if you give Heinicke the ball with 2 minutes to go, 1 score down you have a good shot at a win.

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Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

This is about 5 weeks not 1.
We are scoring enough to win. Pretty much every week. The argument that the offense should do more is ludicrous. Our D gives up 31 points a game! No quarterback is overcoming that. Look at KC. They are 32nd in points allowed and they got a damn good quarterback. Same record as us.
Anyone who thinks we would be better than 2-3 with a better quarterback is kidding themselves. Just look at the best quarterback in football right now.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

Through 5 weeks, the defense has been consistently bad. That cannot be argued.

Through 5 weeks, the offense has been surprisingly good at times, but sometimes pretty bad. There are only six teams that are turning the ball over more than this team, and they are averaging less than two points in the first quarter so far. Not a recipe for success if you ask me.

Throw in Hopkins' woes, and I think the point is that all three phases have contributed to where this team is right now. There's plenty of blame to go around.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

The offense isn’t the greatest show on turf but like others have said it has been serviceable at worst overall. TH had a bad game last week. As a unit it has had its ups and downs.

The defense has not been serviceable at best. There may be plenty of blame to go around but it is crystal clear where the majority of it goes. Now you want to blame the coaches for the defense over the players have at it. But there is no way im blaming the offense as much as the defense. It isn’t even close. Our defense in some ways is historically bad. I can live with the offense. It aint perfect but I can live with it for now.

It will be extremely clear and on display again this week when they beat us 109-42. Normally 42 will win you in a game. Just not with this defense.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

“How they've improved: There aren't many candidates here -- maybe returner DeAndre Carter -- but Heinicke certainly qualifies when you compare him to where he was in 2020: attending classes at Old Dominion University. He was just about done thinking he'd be back in the NFL. For that reason alone, he is the WFT's most improved player. Heinicke has his limitations, and they're on display against really good defenses -- four combined picks in losses to Buffalo and New Orleans. But he has thrown for 1,208 yards and eight touchdowns (with five picks), and he has led two late, game-winning drives. His future might just be as a solid backup, but a year ago he was an NFL afterthought.” -- John Keim

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

I don't think anyone is blaming the offense [U]as much as[/U] the defense. That would be indefensible.

The offense has been a pleasant surprise overall. I expected improvement from last year, mostly because there had to be, and so far I think we're getting it. Now, if they could just cut down on the turnovers and put a little pressure on the opponent by scoring some early points, it would be even better. With how bad this defense is playing, giving extra possessions away is no bueno.

Crazy, we're all ok with a "serviceable" offense, and I think that is about what I expected this year. That in and of itself is depressing.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[QUOTE=Chief X_Phackter;1295395]

...

Crazy, we're all ok with a "serviceable" offense, and I think that is about what I expected this year. That in and of itself is depressing.[/QUOTE]

We knew that we didn't have a franchise qb and were going from a 32nd ranked offense. We basically hoped for stability at the qb position. In addition our free agent splash Samuel has been MIA, we are without the right side of our line, our main compliment to McLaurin is out, our hopeful rookie receiver is out. And our star rb has a fractured shin.

12th in scoring is pretty damn good, and I don't feel bad being happy with that. Yes a few plays could have been better. The first quarter issues could definitely be better. But I am not depressed about the offense at all.

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Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

Watching our offense:
[IMG]https://media0.giphy.com/media/qC5abwZ54KV6U/giphy.gif[/IMG]
Not jumping up and down but enjoying.

Watching our defense:

[IMG]https://media2.giphy.com/media/10FHR5A4cXqVrO/giphy.gif[/IMG]
Absolutely disgusted and embarrassed for them.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[QUOTE=punch it in;1295399]Watching our offense:
[IMG]https://media0.giphy.com/media/qC5abwZ54KV6U/giphy.gif[/IMG]
Not jumping up and down but enjoying.

Watching our defense:

[IMG]https://media2.giphy.com/media/10FHR5A4cXqVrO/giphy.gif[/IMG]
Absolutely disgusted and embarrassed for them.[/QUOTE]Lol

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1295398]We knew that we didn't have a franchise qb and were going from a 32nd ranked offense. We basically hoped for stability at the qb position. In addition our free agent splash Samuel has been MIA, we are without the right side of our line, our main compliment to McLaurin is out, our hopeful rookie receiver is out. And our star rb has a fractured shin.

12th in scoring is pretty damn good, and I don't feel bad being happy with that. Yes a few plays could have been better. The first quarter issues could definitely be better. But I am not depressed about the offense at all.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk[/quote]

I have acknowledged that there weren't a lot of expectations with regard to the offense, especially as compared to the defense. But just in general, it is depressing (to me) that we are cool with a "serviceable" offense.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

Carter has been legit. He will be a stud WR2 soon

Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[QUOTE=Chief X_Phackter;1295403]I have acknowledged that there weren't a lot of expectations with regard to the offense, especially as compared to the defense. But just in general, it is depressing (to me) that we are cool with a "serviceable" offense.[/QUOTE]


I think we are saying that at worst it has been serviceable. There is nothing wrong with a low ceiling that is serviceable is there?
Doesn’t mean at best it is superb but I never feel like they do not have a chance to move the ball and or score.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=Chief X_Phackter;1295403]I have acknowledged that there weren't a lot of expectations with regard to the offense, especially as compared to the defense. But just in general, it is depressing (to me) that we are cool with a "serviceable" offense.[/quote]

But weren't we kind of expecting only a serviceable offense with Fitz being signed as our number 1? We basically went into the season with some upgraded receivers, and 3 back up qbs...
Our d was supposed to be the thing that was above average. I think our offense was always going to be considered only average at best.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=OnceWeWereKings;1295411]But weren't we kind of expecting only a serviceable offense with Fitz being signed as our number 1? We basically went into the season with some upgraded receivers, and 3 back up qbs...
Our d was supposed to be the thing that was above average. I think our offense was always going to be considered only average at best.[/quote]

100

Now all we have is a serviceable offense and a dismantled defense.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[QUOTE=OnceWeWereKings;1295411]But weren't we kind of expecting only a serviceable offense with Fitz being signed as our number 1? We basically went into the season with some upgraded receivers, and 3 back up qbs...
Our d was supposed to be the thing that was above average. I think our offense was always going to be considered only average at best.[/QUOTE]


Exactly nobody is saying our offense is set for ten years. Our defense on the other hand which appeared to be close to a finished product has been a train wreck.

IMO the offense has exceeded expectations even if the bar was low ya gotta be happy that it is better than we thought. Almost top 10 in points per game is not exactly average or serviceable.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=Chief X_Phackter;1295403]I have acknowledged that there weren't a lot of expectations with regard to the offense, especially as compared to the defense. But just in general, it is depressing (to me) that we are cool with a "serviceable" offense.[/quote]

Who is cool with a serviceable offense? Nobody on this site. I think we all know that we still have a a lot of work to do to build the offense we need in order to contend.

The fact that we finished on top of the trash heap that was the NFC East last season should have changed nothing in regard to the building process. But it did. It distracted Ron Rivera from focusing on the goal of building a contender. He is instead trying to win now by bringing in veterans and playing them over developing young players who were coming along nicely. Rivera has lost his way.

As for Taylor Heineke, I think that 90% of the people on this site know what we have in him. He is a fearless gunslinger who is capable of winning or losing games for us with magical throws or horrible interceptions, and one result is just as likely as the other. Yes, we need a Franchise Quarterback, and soon. Nearly everybody here knows that.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=punch it in;1295394]“How they've improved: There aren't many candidates here -- maybe returner DeAndre Carter -- but Heinicke certainly qualifies when you compare him to where he was in 2020: attending classes at Old Dominion University. He was just about done thinking he'd be back in the NFL. For that reason alone, he is the WFT's most improved player. Heinicke has his limitations, and they're on display against really good defenses -- four combined picks in losses to Buffalo and New Orleans. But he has thrown for 1,208 yards and eight touchdowns (with five picks), and he has led two late, game-winning drives. His future might just be as a solid backup, but a year ago he was an NFL afterthought.” -- John Keim[/quote]

I would put Carter on the field a lot more. That guy just seems like he is a football player. Kind of shocked he has bounced around as much as he has.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=Chief X_Phackter;1295403][B]I have acknowledged that there weren't a lot of expectations with regard to the offense[/B], especially as compared to the defense. But just in general, it is depressing (to me) that we are cool with a "serviceable" offense.[/quote]


[quote=OnceWeWereKings;1295411][B]But weren't we kind of expecting only a serviceable offense with Fitz being signed as our number 1?[/B] We basically went into the season with some upgraded receivers, and 3 back up qbs...
Our d was supposed to be the thing that was above average. I think our offense was always going to be considered only average at best.[/quote]


I think we're saying the same thing here.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1295414][B]Who is cool with a serviceable offense? Nobody on this site. [/B]I think we all know that we still have a a lot of work to do to build the offense we need in order to contend.

The fact that we finished on top of the trash heap that was the NFC East last season should have changed nothing in regard to the building process. But it did. It distracted Ron Rivera from focusing on the goal of building a contender. He is instead trying to win now by bringing in veterans and playing them over developing young players who were coming along nicely. Rivera has lost his way.

As for Taylor Heineke, I think that 90% of the people on this site know what we have in him. He is a fearless gunslinger who is capable of winning or losing games for us with magical throws or horrible interceptions, and one result is just as likely as the other. Yes, we need a Franchise Quarterback, and soon. Nearly everybody here knows that.[/quote]

Before you speak for everyone on the site, you might want to read the last several pages.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

I'm, personally, very happy with our offense putting up over 20 every game.
Extremely unhappy with our defense giving up over 30 every game.
There will be games where the offense doesn't score a ton, and the qb has an off day. That happens. Even if it's Brady under center.
And there will be times when the defense gives up a ton of points and loses a game...even if you're the 85 bears.
But us giving up a ton of points has become the norm. It's really unfortunate.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=Chief X_Phackter;1295416]I think we're saying the same thing here.[/quote]

Ah.. sorry. I misunderstood/misread.

I know we all just want to see us clicking the way we all had the presumption we would.
This is one of the most underwhelming seasons I can remember as a fan.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=punch it in;1295413]Exactly nobody is saying our offense is set for ten years. Our defense on the other hand which appeared to be close to a finished product has been a train wreck.

IMO the offense has exceeded expectations even if the bar was low ya gotta be happy that it is better than we thought. Almost top 10 in points per game is not exactly average or serviceable.[/quote]

I'm happy the offense has exceeded expectations. It had to in order to compete this year. Hopefully it can get a little more consistent, and less prone to TOs as the season progresses.

After last season, I thought the defense would take a step back this year, but I thought it would be mainly due to this year's competition, and likely not facing a bunch of 2nd and 3rd string QBs as they did last year. But I'll also admit, I bought the hype over the summer with the signing of W Jackson, drafting J Davis, Matty I coming back, year two under JDR... so far, calling them a train wreck is being nice.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

Seeing Heinicke play a lot has value in that we can learn more about what we have. When he has faced struggling defenses he has looked good. When he has faced good ones he has been exposed (Buffalo, New Orleans). The lack of arm strength shows up as a limitation. But he can make some nice off schedule plays.

We get to see more, but to me it's becoming clear that he's a good player to hang onto as a high level backup in the NFL but our quest for a SB winning caliber QB needs to continue. We need a guy who can make the off schedule plays and be mobile and escapable, but we also need him to have the arm to fit the ball in against defenses that make throwing windows so small, and do so with precision.

We're in a league with Josh Allen, Kyler Murray, Patrick Mahomes, Justin Herbert, Russell Wilson, and others. We can't kid ourselves and think Heinicke is enough.

I think most of us get that but it's good to state it.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=Schneed10;1295422]Seeing Heinicke play a lot has value in that we can learn more about what we have. When he has faced struggling defenses he has looked good. When he has faced good ones he has been exposed (Buffalo, New Orleans). The lack of arm strength shows up as a limitation. But he can make some nice off schedule plays.

We get to see more, but to me it's becoming clear that he's a good player to hang onto as a high level backup in the NFL but our quest for a SB winning caliber QB needs to continue. We need a guy who can make the off schedule plays and be mobile and escapable, but we also need him to have the arm to fit the ball in against defenses that make throwing windows so small, and do so with precision.

We're in a league with Josh Allen, Kyler Murray, Patrick Mahomes, Justin Herbert, Russell Wilson, and others. We can't kid ourselves and think Heinicke is enough.

I think most of us get that but it's good to state it.[/quote]

This pretty much sums it up.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=Schneed10;1295422]Seeing Heinicke play a lot has value in that we can learn more about what we have. When he has faced struggling defenses he has looked good. When he has faced good ones he has been exposed (Buffalo, New Orleans). The lack of arm strength shows up as a limitation. But he can make some nice off schedule plays.

We get to see more, but to me it's becoming clear that he's a good player to hang onto as a high level backup in the NFL but our quest for a SB winning caliber QB needs to continue. We need a guy who can make the off schedule plays and be mobile and escapable, but we also need him to have the arm to fit the ball in against defenses that make throwing windows so small, and do so with precision.

We're in a league with Josh Allen, Kyler Murray, Patrick Mahomes, Justin Herbert, Russell Wilson, and others. We can't kid ourselves and think Heinicke is enough.

I think most of us get that but it's good to state it.[/quote]

100% correct, as we have said so many time on here.. If you don't have a legit QB1 you will not win consistently

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=Chief X_Phackter;1295421]I'm happy the offense has exceeded expectations. It had to in order to compete this year. Hopefully it can get a little more consistent, and less prone to TOs as the season progresses.

After last season, I thought the defense would take a step back this year, but I thought it would be mainly due to this year's competition, and likely not facing a bunch of 2nd and 3rd string QBs as they did last year. [B]But I'll also admit, I bought the hype over the summer with the signing of W Jackson, drafting J Davis, Matty I coming back, year two under JDR... so far, calling them a train wreck is being nice.[/B][/quote]

I def bought into the hype. I mean, on paper...total upgrades. We knew the lb group would be the weak spot. I hoped we could get by with them, though as our line, and secondary would make up for the weak spot. But yea...its been absolutely abysmal so far. Being middle of the pack on defense would have been a little bit of a let down....but being among one of the worst in the entire league is just deflating. This is one of the worst years for morale as a fan that I personally have ever felt.
All I can do is laugh anymore. I have 0 hope for success in the near future. Within the next 2 years I can see a total overhaul (again) in coaching staff. And while it may be needed depending on how things go....it'll put us right back where we have been since like '99. I'm getting to the point where I'm really losing hope that we can ever turn this thing around.
I know I'm stating the obvious here, but we are one of the most poorly run sports franchises across all major sports...and I would dare to say of all time.
It really boggles the mind how the upper echelons of our management structure can be THIS incompetent for this long. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while....but not this squirrel.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[QUOTE=OnceWeWereKings;1295429]I know I'm stating the obvious here, but we are one of the most poorly run sports franchises across all major sports...and I would dare to say of all time. It really boggles the mind how the upper echelons of our management structure can be THIS incompetent for this long. /QUOTE]

Really? There must be something (SNYDER!) that has remained the same (SNYDER!) throughout all this mess (SNYDER!).

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;1295431][QUOTE=OnceWeWereKings;1295429]I know I'm stating the obvious here, but we are one of the most poorly run sports franchises across all major sports...and I would dare to say of all time. It really boggles the mind how the upper echelons of our management structure can be THIS incompetent for this long. /QUOTE]

Really? There must be something (SNYDER!) that has remained the same (SNYDER!) throughout all this mess (SNYDER!).[/quote]

Absolutely, for sure.
It's just hard to believe that, even as shitty as he has made this organization that he hasn't at least gotten lucky at some point.
He is absolutely 100% unequivocally the problem.
I also don't understand how after 20+ years, and all the issues and misses that we have had.......how he hasn't learned anything except how to deflect more and shift blame more. It's maddening.

Re: Taylor Effing Heinicke
 

[QUOTE=Chief X_Phackter;1295421]I'm happy the offense has exceeded expectations. It had to in order to compete this year. Hopefully it can get a little more consistent, and less prone to TOs as the season progresses.

After last season, I thought the defense would take a step back this year, but I thought it would be mainly due to this year's competition, and likely not facing a bunch of 2nd and 3rd string QBs as they did last year. But I'll also admit, I bought the hype over the summer with the signing of W Jackson, drafting J Davis, Matty I coming back, year two under JDR... so far, calling them a train wreck is being nice.[/QUOTE]


Bought in hard because of those exact four things you mentioned and in that order. Maybe Matty I over JD. Not that u were listing them in order. Oh well. One of these years Chief. Just like it used to be.