Commanders Post at The Warpath - Ramsey wants to be traded (merged)

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Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

Okay guys, I've had enough debate for one night. Before I crash out though, I want to leave you with a great read from 1990 - before the 'Skins won the Super Bowl in '91.

I just thought it interesting in light of the current situation.

For Gibbs, Great QB Hasn't Come to Pass by Thomas Boswell

Maybe it's Joe Gibbs's curse or his legacy to be remembered as the best NFL coach who never had a great quarterback.

Play name association and it only requires a blink to hook names such as Tom Landry, Bud Grant, Bill Walsh, Chuck Noll, Vince Lombardi and Paul Brown with the legends who threw the ball for them: Roger Staubach, Fran Tarkenton, Joe Montana, Terry Bradshaw, Bart Starr and Otto Graham. Weeb Ewbank reached Canton courtesy of Johnny Unitas and Joe Namath. Don Shula has had Unitas, Bob Griese and Dan Marino.

Gibbs has had Joe Theismann. And, though he was pretty spry for a couple of years, that's just not the same. And, of course, Doug Williams had his moments of glory, especially when he helped the Redskins crush Denver in the Super Bowl in 1988 and won the MVP award.

It's probably psychologically impossible for an NFL coach, especially one who works 110 of the 168 hours in a week, to wake up on his office cot in the morning and say to himself, "At least 10 teams in this league have a better quarterback than any of mine will ever be."

First, Gibbs became infatuated with Jay Schroeder. Then Mark Rypien. Then Stan Humphries. And now it's Cary Conklin. Every year since Joe Theismann's leg was broken, Gibbs has become smitten with a big, strong, new, young quarterback. They're nearly identical long shot mid-round draft choices.

Some are tough guys. Some throw the ball through a wall. Some have quick feet. Some are smart. Some are leaders. But none of them is "All of the above."

What makes the irony doubly rich, and doubly annoying to Gibbs, is that he made his reputation as an offensive thinker and as a teacher of passers, especially Dan Fouts. With the Redskins, Gibbs has assembled and maintained The Hogs. He's created Riggo Drills and H-backs. He's elevated men-in-motion and formation shifts to an art form. He's spotted enough superior receivers for a Fun Bunch and a Posse.

It's as though Gibbs has spent a decade assembling all the parts of a Frankenstein Monster but has never been able to throw the switch and give it life. What would this man do if he ever had a Hall of Fame quarterback? His '83 team already holds the NFL scoring record of 541 points.

Because Gibbs's desire for a great passer is so deep, his young apprentices operate under a severe burden. Their opportunity is enormous; after all, even Williams in the latter stages of his career won a Super Bowl with Gibbs. But Gibbs's expectation for improvement and performance are high too. With Gibbs, when you stop getting better, you start disappearing.

Schroeder left town with bad feelings between he and Gibbs. Now, the whole town knows that Humphries has lost favor with the coach and may be traded in the next month. At the moment, Conklin, on "injured reserve" for four weeks with a "knee" injury, is the object of Gibbs's fantasies. Meanwhile, Rypien, the precariously positioned starter, is the man on the hot seat who'd better produce.

"I like Cary Conklin very much," said Gibbs yesterday. "He has done nothing but impress me. He has a very bright future. He has a lot of tools. Everything I've seen from Cary, I like. He had a great camp. I told him today how I felt about him. I think that's what he wanted to hear."

Within the last five years, you could have substituted the names Schroeder, Rypien and Humphries for Conklin in almost identical Gibbs bouquets.

As for Rypien, who spent two years on injured reserve awaiting Gibbs's tap on the shoulder, this is clearly his season to be spectacular or prepare to be eased out of the picture. "Hopefully, this is Rip's year to be healthy and take off," said Gibbs yesterday. "Mark has had [four] years to get ready. Now's the time to step up . . . You coach 'em, surround 'em with the absolute best [players] you can. But they need to seize the moment. It's their responsibility to step up and take it."

Because the Redskins, in Gibbs's tenure, have never been a bad team, the club has never been in position to draft a potential franchise quarterback such as Troy Aikman or Jeff George. As for trades, dream on. Nobody deals a premier quarterback for any price.

"I think our fans will get jacked up and support Mark, knowing he's our number one quarterback," said Gibbs. "But will he be booed [sometimes]? He'll have to deal with that. In Washington, it's when he wins a Super Bowl that everybody will think he's done what he should."

That's not just an astronomical standard set by fickle fans or a demanding owner. That's Gibbs's standard too. Since he was hired in 1981, only San Francisco has had a better record than Washington's 113-55.

The Redskins are also second-best in the NFL over the last 10 years in home record (.747), road record (.600), interconference record and record in the season's final month (.775). Nobody has as good a playoff winning percentage.

Now, the Redskins begin what has been an annual agony of quarterback analysis and maturation. What Schroeder and, apparently, Humphries have been deemed incapable of doing, Rypien will be given one more chance to create. With Conklin looking over his shoulder.

Sometimes, an entire town or team can rally around an old or limited quarterback. It's happened with Billy Kilmer and Williams in Washington and with Joe Kapp and Jim Plunkett elsewhere. However, such a generous fate is unlikely to await any young Redskins quarterback. In part because of Gibbs's dreams of greatness, a different and more demanding tone has set around the Redskins.

"In the NFL, it's like familiarity breeds contempt," said Gibbs. "The fans boo the number one guy and root for number two."

Joe Gibbs isn't an antsy fan. But when it comes to quarterbacks, he has to fight the temptation to act like one. So far, especially in the case of Rypien, Gibbs has shown remarkable patience. Maybe that's because he knows better than anyone else that he has little choice. He has been, and will probably long remain, the Hall of Fame coach with no Hall of Fame quarterback.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

[QUOTE=kingerock]All I know is as much as I like Ramsey, if we win on Monday, it's all for moot. Just like anyone here, Gibbs and the Skins want to win./QUOTE]

Dude...and that's bottom [email="f@#kin"]f@#kin[/email] line.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

I don't know why everyone is so optimistic about the 2nd Brunell season as the starter.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

I just thought the article was interesting in the concept that Gibbs has historically been neurotic about his quarterbacks but has always won nevertheless. I think he actually likes to pit them against one another to see who is the most mentally strong.

To be honest, Ramsey constantly begging to be traded everytime he is demoted isn't the way you impress Gibbs.

If Ramsey wanted to impress Gibbs, he would keep his mouth shut, focus on cutting down on turnovers and keep working hard until his next opportunity comes.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

[QUOTE=Drift Reality]This is actually a really good point I thought of earlier this evening. Ramsey has actually shown more than either of the guys taken before him.

For some reason, Gibbs' just hasn't been sold on him. I think it is a very instinctive thing and for whatever reason, Gibbs' doesn't think this is his guy.

On the bright side, I think there has to be at least one team out there with a GM who thinks Ramsey can be the man, so hopefully we can deal him after this season for something.[/QUOTE]

yeah, that is as good point, however, neither of those organizations have the winning history and the great expectation like we do here in Washington. So while the point is very legitimate, I do think, in the context of our franchise history (and trust me I know this sounds corny) it's really a different deal.

None of those franchises have any Superbowls to show for prior successes.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

....and it wasn't just his hamstring, he had a bad elbow as well.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]Tafkas, I hope you know me (via online) well enough not to take this personally....but you have to be kididng me. Brunell gets just one chance??? BRUNELL GETS JUST ONE CHANCE???? He had 9 horrific games last season, each one, Redskins fans everywhere wanted to put rail road spikes through their eyes it was so bad. Common, Brunell has has 10x the chances Ramsey has here in DC.[/QUOTE]

Ramsey plays under Spurrier, and it's "well poor guy had to play under Spurrier with no pass protection." Then he gets another chance last season. And he does fairly well but still makes dumb mistakes (see the INT in the endzone against the Eagles). Nonetheless, he's named the starter going into this training camp. And again, he shows flashes but makes dumb mistakes (see basically the same INT in the endzone against Carolina, was it Carolina?)

I know Brunell played poorly last season, I'm not denying what happened. But I'm convinced he wasn't entirely to blame for it. And I count that as one chance basically because nothing really changed during that time-same coach, same receivers, same offensive gameplan. Plus considering the career he's had doesn't he deserve another chance?

By the way, on a positive note (which are remarkably few and far between after a win) I really liked what I saw from Moss yesterday. He gets great separation and runs excellent routes. Not to mention steady hands and explosive speed. He's going to be a huge help to whoever is taking the snap from center.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

Loved reading that article of the old days. Gibbs will get it done this time around too.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

[QUOTE=SUNRA]Not to make any excuses for Brunell, but it was clear he had a problem with his hamstring last season. The sports announcer mentioned it in the Steelers game. Brunell did not want to dissappoint Gibbs so he played. Unfortunately to our detriment. This year, his passes almost knocked Antonio Brown down in the last preseason game. He has the velocity on the ball that he is known for.[/QUOTE]

so why did he keep playing hurt as it obviously cost our team week after week, and why didn't Gibbs pull him out? do you remember Ramsey scoring alot more after Brunell left?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

He went 3-4 last season...Brunell went 3-6.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

[QUOTE=illdefined]how can you keep ignoring what Brunell and Ramsey did last year? why does this year's preseason and 3 drives count and determine their abilities but not *all of last season*?[/QUOTE]

Because Brunell was injured. It was clear in the Giants game that he wasn't healthy. He played better in the Dallas game, but he was never able to plant his feet and let it go in the nine games in the same way that he did in this year's preseason. If fact all of the sports announcers noticed a different Brunell in preseason. Maybe you don't think the preseason is important, but it reveals a great deal of what you should expect from your first team.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

[QUOTE=SUNRA]Because Brunell was injured. It was clear in the Giants game that he wasn't healthy. He played better in the Dallas game, but he was never able to plant his feet and let it go in the nine games in the same way that he did in this year's preseason. If fact all of the sports announcers noticed a different Brunell in preseason. Maybe you don't think the preseason is important, but it reveals a great deal of what you should expect from your first team.[/QUOTE]

I just dont think injury makes sense. The guy gets hurt against the Giants, comes out the next week vs Dallas and has the best game of the year, and then sucks the rest of the year? Shouldnt he have had the worst game against Dallas?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

He's always hurt. He hasn't played more than 9 games in 2 years. He's only played 16 games twice in his career.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

Okay, so our pass protection is supposedly better, our wideouts are supposedly better, our running game is supposedly better, our scheme is supposedly better, our defense is just as good. Does that mean if the Redskins stink, people can't defend Brunell by saying it was someone else's fault?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

[QUOTE=illdefined]so why did he keep playing hurt as it obviously cost our team week after week, and why didn't Gibbs pull him out? do you remember Ramsey scoring alot more after Brunell left?[/QUOTE]

Brunell played through it, like Ramsey did his first season with us. Ramsey's foot was sprained or fractured. He played on it and it caused him a lot of discomfort while Hasselbeck replaced him.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]Ramsey plays under Spurrier, and it's "well poor guy had to play under Spurrier with no pass protection." Then he gets another chance last season. And he does fairly well but still makes dumb mistakes (see the INT in the endzone against the Eagles). Nonetheless, he's named the starter going into this training camp. And again, he shows flashes but makes dumb mistakes (see basically the same INT in the endzone against Carolina, was it Carolina?)

I know Brunell played poorly last season, I'm not denying what happened. But I'm convinced he wasn't entirely to blame for it. And I count that as one chance basically because nothing really changed during that time-same coach, same receivers, same offensive gameplan. Plus considering the career he's had doesn't he deserve another chance?[/QUOTE]

Brunell lost more games for us than Ramsey did, with the same coach, same receivers, same gameplan. and no, Brunell doesn't deserve more chances because of the career he's had, else we'd call Jerry Rice and Bruce Smith. we're supposed to be past that remember?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

That was his first season as the starter. It was his second season.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

again,

[QUOTE=illdefined]so why did he keep playing hurt as it obviously cost our team week after week, and why didn't Gibbs pull him out?[/QUOTE]

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

[QUOTE=SUNRA]Brunell played through it, like Ramsey did his first season with us. Ramsey's foot was sprained or fractured. He played on it and it caused him a lot of discomfort while Hasselbeck replaced him.[/QUOTE]

So why is it Brunell gets a pass for his (alleged) injury, but Ramsey doesn't?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]Okay, so our pass protection is supposedly better, our wideouts are supposedly better, our running game is supposedly better, our scheme is supposedly better, our defense is just as good. Does that mean if the Redskins stink, people can't defend Brunell by saying it was someone else's fault?[/QUOTE

NO. Place the blame where it belongs. If Brunell sucks. If Portis fumbles. If Antonio Brown fumbles or if bad clock management causes us another game we ar well within our right to take thier heads.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

[QUOTE=SUNRA]NO. Place the blame where it belongs. If Brunell sucks. If Portis fumbles. If Antonio Brown fumbles or if bad clock management causes us another game we ar well within our right to take thier heads.[/QUOTE]

I may be wrong, but I recall that you wouldn't admit that he sucked through week 10 of last year. If so, do you still feel that way?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

[QUOTE=illdefined]Brunell lost more games for us than Ramsey did, with the same coach, same receivers, same gameplan. and no, Brunell doesn't deserve more chances because of the career he's had, else we'd call Jerry Rice and Bruce Smith. we're supposed to be past that remember?[/QUOTE]

A lot of people are convinced that Ramsey would have won those games early on that Brunell lost. I'm not so sure. All that motion offense, Gibbs getting used to a 40 second playclock, etc. it was a lot for the whole team to absorb. I don't think Ramsey, as young and raw as he is, could do much better really. I'm not guaranteeing a win on Monday (though I'd love it of course) but it's too bad that so many people have already decided we've lost this upcoming game and apparently every game after that that Brunell starts.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

[QUOTE=jdlea]It's laughable that you would refer to Mark Brunell as a warrior.[/QUOTE]

At least he gets up after getting hit again and again and doesn't whine about it.

It's laughable that at 20 years old you can make that comment.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

and if Brunell rocks next week, it doesn't mean Ramsey wouldn't have either. who knows how Brunell would have played the first 15 minutes of the season against a fresh Bears defense. Ramsey did *not* remotely get a real chance this season period. the chance Brunell *lost* and Ramsey won last season.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

What the hell does that mean?! What does me being 20 have to do with knowing Brunell has played 16 games twice?! I've watched Mark Brunell play and the best thing he ever did was lose [B]one[/B] AFC Championship game when he was throwing to 2 all world wide outs, Keenan McCardell and Jimmy Smith.

Did you even watch Ramsey get destroyed for his first season? No, he didn't finish it, but did he whine then?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]A lot of people are convinced that Ramsey would have won those games early on that Brunell lost. I'm not so sure. All that motion offense, Gibbs getting used to a 40 second playclock, etc. it was a lot for the whole team to absorb. I don't think Ramsey, as young and raw as he is, could do much better really. I'm not guaranteeing a win on Monday (though I'd love it of course) but it's too bad that so many people have already decided we've lost this upcoming game and apparently every game after that that Brunell starts.[/QUOTE]

well Brunell certainly was the one who lost them. you could directly attribute those losses to his performances.

and we're reacting because people have already decided we'd lose any game with Ramsey starting despite the actual *record*.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

[QUOTE=jdlea]What the hell does that mean?! What does me being 20 have to do with knowing Brunell has played 16 games twice?! I've watched Mark Brunell play and the best thing he ever did was lose [B]one[/B] AFC Championship game when he was throwing to 2 all world wide outs, Keenan McCardell and Jimmy Smith.[/QUOTE]

Well it was two AFC Championship games. And four playoff appearances in the first five years of Jacksonville's existence in the NFL. But that's not really relevant to today

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

Okay, I'm sorry it was 2 and he lost them both. That was about a decade ago too, but since I'm 20 I wouldn't know nothin about that, right?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

Questions:

1. Is brunnell really better than last year? He looked much better in preseason--everyone, on this board and elsewhere else saw it and it was much discussed. If that player shows up on Monday, then the substance, if not the style, of the move will be acceptable. We'll know soon.

2. Will Ramsey EVER learn to read NFL defenses? This is, I believe, the root of the problem. He misreads and throws INTs. Or he can't find his hot read and throws an INT. Or he he can't find anyone, and takes a sack, and maybe fumbles as well--remember, we've questioned here before whether he holds the ball too long. He does. Gibbs can see this, as can anyone else. PR makes his best throws when given LOTS of time. Then he guns it somewhere. But Ds know this and blitz. That makes things difficult. Sometimes Ramsey gets comfortable and looks good, but then he gets hit or confused, and trouble happens. I like the kid--and his good moments are a serious tease. But this is the truth. Maybe he'll get better, and I would have stuck with him, especially after naming him the starter (the REAL MISTAKE HERE, IMO). But he hasn't shown it yet. And Gibbs sees him every practice; GIbbs watches every film; Gibbs knows about QBs.

3. Can Brunnell stay healthy all year? No way, IMO. He's just too old.

4. Who plays if Brunnell goes down? For all of Gibbs mistrust of PR, I very much doubt it's Campbell. So we're gonna need PR to calm down and ease up.

5. Who is Mort's source on the claim that Pat wants to be traded? Was it Pat? His Agent? Unnamed sources in Redskin park? Very curious.

6. How will the team react? I think they'll be fine. Moss and Patten have been muted in their comments on Ramsey. Jansen is his buddy, but no way that means he plays with any less fire for Brunnell. Portis looked great with Brunnell, and has been a leader anyway.

7. How will Gibbs react if Mark plays like he did last year? Will he pull Mark and play revolving QBs? Or will he go down with the Brunnell ship, tarnishing his legacy as he goes? How will the Danny react? This is the nightmare scenario that Dr Z, Pasta, and every other anti-skin pundit have been waiting for.

Hold tight, lads. These are the times that try men's (and women's) souls.

It's always darkest before the dawn.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

My bad, I think they last made the playoffs in 1999, but how he never got to the Super Bowl with Fred Taylor, Jimmy Smith and Keenan McCardell is beyond me.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

[QUOTE=PIG SKIN]At least he gets up after getting hit again and again and doesn't whine about it.

It's laughable that at 20 years old you can make that comment.[/QUOTE]

Wait, are we talking about Ramsey or Brunell.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

What did Joe Gibbs say? What did he say? Someone asked about the QB situation he said, "Patrick's our man" and "...we're gonna try to get him some weapons." I said he lied. You said he didn't...what now?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

[QUOTE=jdlea]What did Joe Gibbs say? What did he say? Someone asked about the QB situation he said, "Patrick's our man" and "...we're gonna try to get him some weapons." I said he lied. You said he didn't...what now?[/QUOTE]

Who are you talking to?

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

This sounds like the same baby tune he cried when Brunell came aboard last year. I want to be traded if I'm not the starter. Some say Gibbs does not like him, well maybe that's one of the reasons why. This guy really has an inflated oponion of himself and for the life of me I cannot understand why. He has done nothing, and proved nothing in the NFL and he's demanding a trade, (unbelievable) He may be lucky if anyone will want to trade for him. Maybe someone who wants a crybaby.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

I went searching for it, but I can't find anything from around the time of the draft so I can't tell you who now. Kinda bothers me, but whatever. I'm sure no one will own up to it, but I know there were plenty of people on my case because I had the audacity to say that Joe Gibbs would lie.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

One thing I can say in Mark Brunell's defense is that he has won more recently than Joe Gibbs.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

[QUOTE=jdlea]I went searching for it, but I can't find anything from around the time of the draft so I can't tell you who now. Kinda bothers me, but whatever. I'm sure no one will own up to it, but I know there were plenty of people on my case because I had the audacity to say that Joe Gibbs would lie.[/QUOTE]

I know what you're talking about and I found the thread. You're talking about Gibbs saying Patrick was our guy and we're drafting weapons to help him. Then he goes out and gets Rogers and Campbell.

Re: Ramsey wants to be traded

Yeah, I got ripped...now Patrick's not our guy.