Re: JLC: Rogers, Possibly on the Way Out
 

we dont need to be trading lOs

Re: JLC: Rogers, Possibly on the Way Out
 

[quote=SC Skins Fan;516755]It is a silly question because it is 100% subjective and you clearly don't like Carlos Rogers so your answer will be that he would not start for any team, but here are the depth charts for corners on the division/playoff teams.

Atlanta: so I'd take him over anyone Atlanta has.
[I][B]LCB:[/B][/I][I]Domonique Foxworth[/I] [I]
Chevis Jackson - r[/I] [I]
Brent Grimes[/I] [I][B]
RCB:[/B][/I][I]Chris Houston[/I] [I]
David Irons (IR)[/I]

Arizona: Ditto on Arizona
[B]LCB:[/B]Roderick Hood
Michael Adams
[B]RCB:[/B]D. Rodgers-Cro - r
Eric Green

Baltimore: Who would you take over Rogers from the vaunted Ravens defense? The Raiders traded Fabian Washington for a 4th round pick by the way.
[B]LCB:[/B]Fab. Washington - inj
Corey Ivy
Chris McAlister (IR)
[B]RCB:[/B]Samari Rolle - inj
Frank Walker

Carolina: Gamble is a good player. I guess Lucas is as well, though I haven't watched either of them play a whole lot. And Carolina wouldn't trade a 2004 1st round pick (Gamble) and instead gave him an extension this November.
[B]LCB:[/B]Chris Gamble
Richard Marshall
[B]RCB:[/B]Ken Lucas
Dante Wesley

Dallas: Who would you take other than Newman?
[B]LCB:[/B]Ter. Newman
Mike Jenkins - r
Alan Ball
[B]RCB:[/B]Anthony Henry
Adam Jones - inj
Orl. Scandrick
Keith Davis - r

Indy: Um, would you take Marlin Jackson? (who was drafted after Rogers in 2005)
[B]LCB:[/B]Kelvin Hayden
Dante Hughes
[B]RCB:[/B]Tim Jennings
Keiwan Ratliff
Mar. Jackson (IR)
Nick Graham (IR)

Miami: I'm starting to agree with Rogers that he could start for any of these playoff teams. But let's definitely trade him for a 2nd or 3rd rounder. Cornerbacks are a dime a dozen.
[B]LCB:[/B]Will Allen
Michael Lehan
[B]RCB:[/B]Andre' Goodman
Nathan Jones

Minnesota: Winfield ... he also makes a ton of cash and is five years older than Rogers.
[B]LCB:[/B]Antoine Winfield
Marcus McCauley
[B]RCB:[/B]Cedric Griffin
Benny Sapp
Char. Gordon (IR)

New England: I'll throw them in since they were 11-5
[B]LCB:[/B]Jonathan Wilhite - r
Deltha O'Neal
[B]RCB:[/B]Ellis Hobbs - inj
Mike Richardson
Jas. Webster (IR)
Ter. Wheatley (IR)

New York: I'm sure the Giants wouldn't have room for Rogers on their team (that's sarcasm). Terrell Thomas was also a second round pick in 2008. Would you trade Carlos Rogers for him?
[B]LCB:[/B]Aaron Ross - inj
Kevin Dockery
Terrell Thomas - r
[B]RCB:[/B]Corey Webster
R.W. McQuarters
Sam Madison

Philadelphia: They are deep (and well paid) at Corner. But you wouldn't take Rogers over Sheldon Brown? The Eagles also couldn't get the picks they wanted for Lito Sheppard (a then 26 year old Pro Bowl corner) ... would teams be willing to give the Redskins as much or more for Rogers than they were willing to give for Sheppard? So are we even talking about getting a 2nd back in return for a young talented corner?
[B]LCB:[/B]Asante Samuel
Lito Sheppard
[B]RCB:[/B]Sheldon Brown
Joselio Hanson

Pittsburgh:
[B]LCB:[/B]Ike Taylor
Anthony Madison
[B]RCB:[/B]Bry. McFadden - inj
Deshea Townsend - inj
William Gay

San Diego: They had two first round picks at Corner and then spent another first rounder on Cason in 2008. Think corners are important?
[B]LCB:[/B]Quentin Jammer
Antonie Cason - r
[B]RCB:[/B]Ant. Cromartie
DeJuan Tribble - r

Tennessee: I had no idea Tyrone Poole was still in the NFL. He was drafted the same year that the Redskins took Michael Westbrook! Anyway, give me Rogers over Nick Harper.
[B]LCB:[/B]Nick Harper
Chris Carr
[B]RCB:[/B]Cort. Finnegan
Tyrone Poole

Well, I think the answer to your question is obvious, but as I said at the outset it is subjective so I guess you can disagree. If Rogers is actually on the block I'm going to have to take a break from the Redskins for a few weeks at least. It truly boggles the mind. I can understand how fans could get down on a guy for dropping some picks, but the coaches theoretically break down the tape. How do they not see that Rogers is a player/?[/quote]

Thanks for the detail. I wasn't going to take the time to research all of them, but you made a few good points. He would be a starter for some of those teams. You're right, I've never been a Rogers fan and think we can do better than him on the free agent market if we can get good value in a trade. The coaches had to have been seeing something for his playing time to drop to nil down the stretch.

Despite him having the worst ball skills I've ever seen from a position player, I wouldn't hate it if he accepted a reasonable deal and we had Hall & Rogers for the next 5 years. I don't think he's going to be signable long term because he thinks he's much better than he is, that's the biggest reason I'd advocate the trade.

Re: JLC: Rogers, Possibly on the Way Out
 

I think we should also remember Rogers spent most of his time rehabbing, not practicing, until the season started.

Re: JLC: Rogers, Possibly on the Way Out
 

I still think all this sounds like JLC trying too hard to get a scoop and putting two and two toghter and coming up with eight . He is creating the story ... again as he has in the past with rumors Portis would be traded last year and Bly would be coming to Washington .

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2008/12/2008_positional_review_-_corne.html?wprss=redskinsinsider]Redskins by Position: The Cornerbacks - Redskins Insider[/url]


I think what is interesting is Rogers signed a 7 year rookie contract . I am pretty sure some of those years will be voidable but I am not sure, the point is which I think JLC is missing is they have to make a decision on Hall NOW, this year .

I think they will offer Hall a contract having been quite pleased with his production .

Rogers can wait.... At least to the end of 2009 .

Springs has a huge cap number ... can he play effectivly with Hall and Rogers ...We know what we have with Rogers and Springs bit how does he play with Hall... how does the team find out? Play them together .

If they do want Springs back he has to reduce his cap hit .

Re: JLC: Rogers, Possibly on the Way Out
 

I wouldn't let him go. Staying younger is the key. If anything I'd take a so-so player that can play than a good player that can't (Springs). How many years does Springs have left in him anyway. He's gone for most of the season with one injury or another?
I don't like seeing a draft pick go that has the room to get better in favor of an older guy that isn't your future. Hall is good but there are reasons that Atlanta and Oakland lets him go and that is he can't cover that well. Can he work in Washington, perhaps? He is young but I wouldn't spend too much to keep him. I think Smoot is heading the same way as Springs. All of these guys are good and can use a little more improvement. Springs is the best out of all of them but can't stay out there long enough to make an impact on the season. I'd like to move Springs up to safety and extend his career. If not then we really haven't lost anything.
I wouldn't be happy with letting Carlos Rogers go. After all of those dropped interceptions, I wouldn't cry either.

Re: JLC: Rogers, Possibly on the Way Out
 

If Rogers in in position to drop picks then he must be doing something right. Give him time!

Re: JLC: Rogers, Possibly on the Way Out
 

For anyone to say that DeAngelo Hall is not a good CB is crazy to me. He really is a good corner. I know people were locked in on the completion percentage thing when he was with Oakland this season, but look at the other numbers compared to what we have:

2008 - 73 tackles, 5 INTs, & 21 Pass Deflections

* He had more pass deflections (8) in 7 games with us than Springs & Smoot had all season (7 each).
* 3rd most pass deflections in the NFL this season (21)... by the way, guess who led the league... lol ... yup ... CARLOS ROGERS (24).

2007 - 70 tackles, 5 INTs, & 16 PDs
2006 - 58 tackles, 4 INTs, & 16 PDs
2005 - 65 tackles, 6 INTs, & 10 PDs

Now look at our CBs numbers over the past 4 years and you WON'T see 20 pass deflections, over 4 INTs, 70 tackles, etc...

Also keep in mind that the guy is only 25 years-old ... 25!! He's only going to mature. And he grew up a die hard Redskins fan that's why he signed with us for league minimum when the Patriots & Giants were after him.

I am 100% behind resigning him. An like I said before, Rogers is a moot point as he is locked in through 2009, so there is no need to get rid of him other than Blache and him REALLY having issues. These 2 should be the starting corners next year... as BOTH are quality NFL starting CBs.

Re: JLC: Rogers, Possibly on the Way Out
 

Yeah I can dig that! Y'all are missing my point though. Overall I think that the secondary is good. They're not great, but they could be with more help from the D-line. What my point is that if the FO wants to trim some fat than it should be Springs or Smoot. I'd like to keep Carlos and Hall because they're younger, have room for growth, and can play for a full season. I'd like to see them cover a little better but if the D-line gives the other quarterback forever to throw the ball then it's hard to get better coverage than what we've gotten.
If you do get rid of any of these players the focus should be getting draft picks and younger healthier players. I'd like to see them all back next year if you get down to it. If Carlos wants to cry then cut him. Let's not make excuses for any of them. They need to earn their postition. If Rogers was a starter like he thinks he is then he would've been the starter.

Re: JLC: Rogers, Possibly on the Way Out
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;517077]Yeah I can dig that! Y'all are missing my point though. Overall I think that the secondary is good. They're not great, but they could be with more help from the D-line. What my point is that if the FO wants to trim some fat than it should be Springs or Smoot. I'd like to keep Carlos and Hall because they're younger, have room for growth, and can play for a full season. I'd like to see them cover a little better but if the D-line gives the other quarterback forever to throw the ball then it's hard to get better coverage than what we've gotten.
If you do get rid of any of these players the focus should be getting draft picks and younger healthier players. I'd like to see them all back next year if you get down to it. If Carlos wants to cry then cut him. Let's not make excuses for any of them. They need to earn their postition. If Rogers was a starter like he thinks he is then he would've been the starter.[/quote]

Smoots cap hit if we cut him would be 4million, If he comes back it would only be 2.65 million.

Re: JLC: Rogers, Possibly on the Way Out
 

Like I said. I want them all back. I think because of the situation that you just outlined we should keep all of them. Smoot wasn't bad last year. None of them really were. The point is if you want to get rid of someone then make it the person who has less of a NFL future. I forget which one of these guys owns a couple or Wafle-Houses? I think Smoot. If we do get rid of Rogers for any reason we should get something good for him, right? Tell me what y'all think? Would it be feasible to get some 6th or 7th round picks for him? How about picks for next year? What do y'all think we could get for him?

Re: JLC: Rogers, Possibly on the Way Out
 

I really don't have a problem with Rogers. No he can't catch a cold but he really doesn't need to. As long as he understands he is only going to take on the second or third WR then he will be fine. All he has to do is bat the ball away or rush the QB once in a while. Hall should be relegated to covering the #1 WR position. He has the speed and agility to cover them and perhaps steal a ball once and a while. When Rogers is blitzing have a safety cover over the top.

I will say again if we had a half decent pass rush our problems would be solved at CB. Any decent pass rush would make the QB throw the ball away or throw half a$$. If the QB does not have all day to throw the ball and wait for his WR's to get open then our CB look great. Simply put again....look at our offense this season. Other teams had great pass rushes and we had a hard time picking them up and they new it. During the second half of the yr JC faced more rushes and had to throw away or get sacked. Occassionaly he was able to run for the 1st down.

Re: JLC: Rogers, Possibly on the Way Out
 

[quote=SBXVII;517093]I really don't have a problem with Rogers. No he can't catch a cold but he really doesn't need to. As long as he understands he is only going to take on the second or third WR then he will be fine. All he has to do is bat the ball away or rush the QB once in a while. Hall should be relegated to covering the #1 WR position. He has the speed and agility to cover them and perhaps steal a ball once and a while. When Rogers is blitzing have a safety cover over the top. [/quote]

Yeah...I don't mind Rogers.

From what I remember he was selected by GWilliams to be a physical corner as was needed in his defensive scheme. Well he has the physical part down pat. The hit he put on TO during that quick post at FedEx this year proved that. He can make all the physical hits that a physical corner needs to do.

Now can he catch a football...HELL NO!...but there is a give and take when you deal with athlete's that don't have supernatural abilities to do both.

BTW...the cowboys have a rookie CB named Mike Jenkins. During Week 9 against the giants, Brandon Jacobs did a sweep to his side. Jenkins had a full shot at Jacobs and side stepped himself out of the play so he didn't have to do so. He looked back at his teammates to make the tackle and Jacobs ran another 10 yards for a TD.

Now...Mike Jenkins can probably catch footballs all day long but he sure is hell didn't want to catch Jacob's down low for an attempted tackle. Just because Los has a glaring weakness doesn't mean he doesn't have strengths. As long as his strengths fits into our defensive scheme then I'm all for him.

Re: JLC: Rogers, Possibly on the Way Out
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;517109]Yeah...I don't mind Rogers.

From what I remember he was selected by GWilliams to be a physical corner as was needed in his defensive scheme. Well he has the physical part down pat. The hit he put on TO during that quick post at FedEx this year proved that. He can make all the physical hits that a physical corner needs to do.

Now can he catch a football...HELL NO!...but there is a give and take when you deal with athlete's that don't have supernatural abilities to do both.

BTW...the cowboys have a rookie CB named Mike Jenkins. During Week 9 against the giants, Brandon Jacobs did a sweep to his side. Jenkins had a full shot at Jacobs and side stepped himself out of the play so he didn't have to do so. He looked back at his teammates to make the tackle and Jacobs ran another 10 yards for a TD.

Now...Mike Jenkins can probably catch footballs all day long but he sure is hell didn't want to catch Jacob's down low for an attempted tackle. Just because Los has a glaring weakness doesn't mean he doesn't have strengths. As long as his strengths fits into our defensive scheme then I'm all for him.[/quote]

I'm with you on that. None of our CB's have been afraid to hit this year.

Re: JLC: Rogers, Possibly on the Way Out
 

Rogers was a top 10 pick and is just entering his prime..If we traded him for anything less than a 1st rounder we'd be morons.

Re: JLC: Rogers, Possibly on the Way Out
 

[quote=Hail to the Redskins;517072]For anyone to say that DeAngelo Hall is not a good CB is crazy to me. He really is a good corner. [b] I know people were locked in on the completion percentage thing when he was with Oakland this season, but look at the other numbers compared to what we have:[/b]

2008 - 73 tackles, 5 INTs, & 21 Pass Deflections

* He had more pass deflections (8) in 7 games with us than Springs & Smoot had all season (7 each).
* 3rd most pass deflections in the NFL this season (21)... by the way, guess who led the league... lol ... yup ... CARLOS ROGERS (24).

2007 - 70 tackles, 5 INTs, & 16 PDs
2006 - 58 tackles, 4 INTs, & 16 PDs
2005 - 65 tackles, 6 INTs, & 10 PDs

Now look at our CBs numbers over the past 4 years and you WON'T see 20 pass deflections, over 4 INTs, 70 tackles, etc...

Also keep in mind that the guy is only 25 years-old ... 25!! He's only going to mature. And he grew up a die hard Redskins fan that's why he signed with us for league minimum when the Patriots & Giants were after him.

I am 100% behind resigning him. An like I said before, Rogers is a moot point as he is locked in through 2009, so there is no need to get rid of him other than Blache and him REALLY having issues. These 2 should be the starting corners next year... as BOTH are quality NFL starting CBs.[/quote]

I don't think that anyone would question Hall's ball skills, the problem with him is his struggles in coverage and high completion percentage against. You err in making it sound like his high completion percentage against was an aberration that came out of the blue when he went to Oakland. That is incorrect. Hall has always struggled in completion percentage and yards allowed per completion. Football Outsiders has compiled these metrics, though I do not have the handy. If you want to choose between Hall and Rogers, the latter is the better coverage cornerback by a pretty fair margin. If Hall gets big money and Rogers is either traded or allowed to walk after his contract is up (which wouldn't really make sense since the Redskins could give him a high tender and get compensation if he were an RFA after 2009) then that is a mistake. Sure, it would be fine to have both as you say, but if Hall gets $45-50 million and $12-15 million to sign then there will not be money for Rogers so you are making a choice between the two.