Re: Observation on Campbell
 

[quote=irish;517744]Last time I checked they dont give MVPs for 8 games. I bet Jaws wouldnt consider him anywhere near MVP now (especially since P. Manning won it and JC isnt anywhere close to him). [B] I dont like JC as QB because he isnt that good.[/B][/quote]

How about you back that up with something concrete? You don't like anything about the Redskins as far as I can tell.

Re: Observation on Campbell
 

[quote=GMScud;517554]Just stop trying 30gut. Reason and expert analysis falls on deaf ears with the Campbell haters around here. You can point out concrete analysis from experts left and right, and not only won't any of the haters acknowledge it, they'll still preach on like they know what they're talking about.

Not to mention the fact that there are probably at least half a dozen threads dedicated to how "bad" of a qb JC is, yet these new threads keep popping up. :doh:

Yours is an honorable effort, but some people just don't really like to listen to reason.[/quote]

He did go thru progressions good but like Sonny said, you can train any lineman to go thru progressions its what happens after the snap that counts as much or more than progressions and Sonny said he hasnt seen anything from JC after the snap that gets him excited about JCs future.

Re: Observation on Campbell
 

[quote=irish;517747]He did go thru progressions good but like Sonny said, you can train any lineman to go thru progressions its what happens after the snap that counts as much or more than progressions and Sonny said he hasnt seen anything from JC after the snap that gets him excited about JCs future.[/quote]

That's like the 10th time you've referenced ONE comment by a 70 something year old ex-QB. Matter of fact, that is THE ONLY reference to anything that even resembles an expert that any Campbell hater anywhere on this board has used. And frankly I don't really consider Sonny much of an expert at this stage. Great man, great Redskin, but not a top notch analyst by any means.

In the meantime, Bill Cowher, Steve Young, Ron Jaworski, our head coach, and plenty of others have had high praise for JC and how quickly he is coming along in the most complex offense despite a badly underperforming O-line and WR corps...

Re: Observation on Campbell
 

[quote=GMScud;517740]The funny thing is, all the Campbell haters are just getting pwned left and right!![/quote]

A predictable response.

The first part is wildly inaccurate. Nobody hates Campbell. We would all love to see him become an elite QB and remain here for the rest of his career.

The second part is juvenile in the extreme.

Re: Observation on Campbell
 

[quote=GMScud;517748]That's like the 10th time you've referenced ONE comment by a 70 something year old ex-QB. Matter of fact, that is THE ONLY reference to anything that even resembles an expert that any Campbell hater anywhere on this board has used. And frankly I don't really consider Sonny much of an expert at this stage. Great man, great Redskin, but not a top notch analyst by any means.

In the meantime, [B]Bill Cowher, Steve Young, Ron Jaworski, our head coach[/B], and plenty of others have had high praise for JC and how quickly he is coming along in the most complex offense despite a badly underperforming O-line and WR corps...[/quote]I give far mor credence to these guys' opinions than Jurgensen's. Jaws in particular reviews more film than any analyst today.

Re: Observation on Campbell
 

[quote=SouperMeister;517751]I give far mor credence to these guys' opinions than Jurgensen's. Jaws in particular reviews more film than any analyst today.[/quote]

In all my years of watching Redskins Report I cant ever recall Sonny saying something even remotely negative about anything Skins-related thats why when he said it I about fell out of my chair cause if Sonny is saying something negative he must think its really bad.

I guess expert analysis is only worth something when you agree with it.

Re: Observation on Campbell
 

[quote=davy;517750]A predictable response.

The first part is wildly inaccurate. Nobody hates Campbell. We would all love to see him become an elite QB and remain here for the rest of his career.

[B]The second part is juvenile in the extreme.[/B][/quote]

Juvenile in the extreme? Or maybe a valid observation that you simply cannot rebut, so you sink to insulting it (which is awfully hypocritical considering YOU brought up how we Campbell supporters are the insulters).

Either way, pretty funny. I also think it's funny that you chose to quote just one line of my entire post, and then proceed to call it "typical" and "juvenile." See pot and kettle. Sigh....

You're amongst the JC naysayers, and rather than backing up your negative opinions about him with anything concrete, you'd rather just bicker.

Re: Observation on Campbell
 

[quote=irish;517752]In all my years of watching Redskins Report [B]I cant ever recall Sonny saying something even remotely negative about anything Skins-related[/B] thats why when he said it I about fell out of my chair cause if Sonny is saying something negative he must think its really bad.

I guess expert analysis is only worth something when you agree with it.[/quote]

That's just simply not true. Your convenient selective hearing doesn't surprise me though. You didn't hear him when we were limping around with Brunell in early '04 and '06?? How about during the Spurrier years? Or with Jeff George?? Please man.

I think it's hilarious that you're clinging to ONE comment by someone who can't pass as an NFL analyst as the backing for your argument. Yeah, that really trumps any of the other links/quotes/articles by numerous sources that have been posted around here ad nauseum.

I'm almost begging for a REAL, statistically and factually based concrete argument to support the JC bashing. Anyone, please. Seriously.

Re: Observation on Campbell
 

[quote=irish;517747]He did go thru progressions good but like Sonny said, [B]you can train any lineman to go thru progressions [/B]its what happens after the snap that counts as much or more than progressions and Sonny said he hasnt seen anything from JC after the snap that gets him excited about JCs future.[/quote]

A lineman may be able to switch line assignments before the snap but not go through progressions. Going through your progressions means not targeting one receiver but looking to different receivers to see who the best option is. You progress from one receiver to the next. At least that's my understanding of it. I'm pretty sure even old Sonny would know this. I don't know how you train a lineman to do that.

Re: Observation on Campbell
 

[quote=davy;517704]Anybody else notice that the people who have criticised Campbell on this thread are quite happy for others to come on and defend him, yet the defenders quickly resort to insults and ridiculous accusations of racism when anybody disagrees with them?

Strange that.[/quote]

As the guy who brought up the race issue I just want to point out why .

I gone through countless Anti Campbell threads and other posters have said all I have come across is :

"I am not sold on him", "he is inaccurate", "he is a turnover machine" (- Which made me laugh) "He holds onto the ball too long","he is slow", "too laid back", "I just don't like him" etc etc .

Yes I would like to see more from him but what I have seen, keeping the team in games, bringing us from behind, making gutsy calls plays and year on year improvements, willingness to put the time in the film room and training ground is something I like to see from the QB .

If someone, anyone could give me concrete reasons why Campbell should not at least be given a chance to be the Redskins QB of the future other than jut a "feeling" or a stereotype I would be glad to debate it with them .

I am not a reverse bigot, I think anyone should make their way in the world based on merit, it shouldn't matter about race religion sexual preference or anything else .

The problem is the world isn't like that and these things do make a difference.


I wasn't isolating anyone and calling them a racist . I am not using it as an insult, if you see it like that then maybe that is your problem not mine .


People judge others, sometimes subconsciously sometimes because they choose to .

I think it is naive to think every single anti Campbell comment is based soley on his on field production and not on the stereotype of black athletes some people hold .

Re: Observation on Campbell
 

[quote=bedlamVR;517776]
People judge others, sometimes subconsciously sometimes because they choose to .

I think it is naive to think every single anti Campbell comment is based soley on his on field production and not on the stereotype of black athletes some people hold .[/quote]

Some fans refuse to see any of Campbell's merits. Despite the actual numbers he's put up and praise from current NFL experts.
They down play any of Campbell strengths in order to level dubious claims that he lacks some intangible 'it' factor and therefore isn't good.

I'm sure their might be some left over stereotypes about black quarterbacks that may be behind some peoples opinions of Campbell. There was a time when many black QBs had a hard road to the NFL as a QB and many switched from QB to another position like DB when coming into the league. (e.g. Tony Dungy)

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Dungy was recruited by University of Minnesota coach Cal Stoll and played for the Golden Gophers from 1973 to 1976. He entered the starting lineup as a quarterback during his freshman year and after playing for four years finished as Minnesota's career leader in pass attempts (576), completions (274), touchdown passes (25), and passing yards (3,577).[5] He also finished fourth in career total offense in the Big Ten Conference. He received Minnesota's Most Valuable Player award twice.[5][/COLOR]

But based on the level of the arguements going on in this thread i thought this wouldn't be the place to have this discussion.

But, you're right, it is naive to think that race/stereotypes about black QB may not have a role in how some fans view Campbell's performance. I just thought it was understood.

Re: Observation on Campbell
 

[quote=bedlamVR;517776]As the guy who brought up the race issue I just want to point out why .

I gone through countless Anti Campbell threads and other posters have said all I have come across is :

"I am not sold on him", "he is inaccurate", "he is a turnover machine" (- Which made me laugh) "He holds onto the ball too long","he is slow", "too laid back", "I just don't like him" etc etc .

Yes I would like to see more from him but what I have seen, keeping the team in games, bringing us from behind, making gutsy calls plays and year on year improvements, willingness to put the time in the film room and training ground is something I like to see from the QB .

[B]If someone, anyone could give me concrete reasons why Campbell should not at least be given a chance to be the Redskins QB of the future other than jut a "feeling" or a stereotype I would be glad to debate it with them . [/B]

I am not a reverse bigot, I think anyone should make their way in the world based on merit, it shouldn't matter about race religion sexual preference or anything else .

The problem is the world isn't like that and these things do make a difference.


I wasn't isolating anyone and calling them a racist . I am not using it as an insult, if you see it like that then maybe that is your problem not mine .


People judge others, sometimes subconsciously sometimes because they choose to .

I think it is naive to think every single anti Campbell comment is based soley on his on field production and not on the stereotype of black athletes some people hold .[/quote]

Why don't you show us some of these "concrete" racial reasons that people do not like Campbell before you come out a say something related to race. I haven't seen 1 post on here where someone was using race as a reason for Campbell's average play. So where are you getting your ideas of race being the reason??

Re: Observation on Campbell
 

[quote=30gut;517533]What makes you say this?

One of the things Zorn and others (Jaws, Aikman) praise Jason for is that he [B][I]does[/I][/B] go through his progressions.

[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/11/26/ST2008112604197.html"]Campbell Is Earning Zorn's Trust - washingtonpost.com[/URL]

The tendency was something Zorn knew he would have to address with Campbell, but the former Seahawks quarterback smiled as he analyzed the young signal caller's performance during his news conference later in the day.

[COLOR=Indigo]"Remember, at the beginning of the season I couldn't get him off that receiver and now he is off him, you know, five yards down the field. Boy, he's looking for number two and number three," the first-year head coach said, chuckling. "So we'll get him back on track. I think he's playing well, though." [/COLOR]

I don't know bro, this is like a direct contradiction of what you're saying huh?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------



But it doesn't change the [B][U][SIZE=3][COLOR=Red]fact[/COLOR][/SIZE][/U][/B] that Jason was at one point being considered for league MVP.

Here's a question for you and [B]BeastsoftheNFCeast[/B] and [B]BigHairedAristocrat[/B]

If Jason was being considered for MVP can you admit that Jason was at least playing well in the 1st half of the season?

Here are some more quotes you might like:
[URL="http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/redskins/2008-10-23-sw-cover_N.htm"]With tough love from Zorn, Campbell now among elite QBs - USATODAY.com[/URL]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Former Pittsburgh Steelers head coach Bill Cowher considers Campbell a leading candidate for mid-season league MVP.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkRed]"Jason Campbell has played as well as anybody has in the NFL at his position," Cowher, now a CBS analyst, says. "He's thrown for good numbers. He's got no turnovers. He's big, strong and able to move out of the pocket and make throws down the field.

"He's brought his team back when they've been down. I've been very impressed with Jason Campbell's play."[/COLOR]
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[COLOR=Red]Fox Sports lead NFL analyst Troy Aikman says[/COLOR][COLOR=Red]"With all the coaching changes, I didn't know how it would play out with Jim Zorn becoming a first-time head coach and play-caller and losing defensive coordinator Gregg Williams and Jason Campbell having to learn a new system again."
"The reason they're closing people out is the way Jim Zorn is calling games.
"He's going for it on fourth down and throwing on first down in the fourth quarter because Jason understands about taking care of the ball."[/COLOR]

-------------------------------------------------------------
[COLOR=Orange]"I thought Jason would eventually play well under Jim Zorn," ESPN Monday Night Football analyst Ron Jaworski says. "I didn't think he'd play this well, this early.
"I've seen his game ascending. He can make every throw a quarterback has to have, the tough stick throw, the deep out, the seam route. He has great anticipation. I thought he'd become a rock-solid quarterback.
"That it's happened this quickly really is a tribute to Jim Zorn."[/COLOR][/quote]

He had a bit more time to where he COULD do that. Are you not saying that (and plenty of this has to do with the o-line play) he held on longer than he probably should've on many plays as well?

I point out one part of the game that a QB new to this system is not 100% on and all of a sudden I'm a Campbell hater, you guys are incredible.

Re: Observation on Campbell
 

[quote=GMScud;517748]That's like the 10th time you've referenced ONE comment by a 70 something year old ex-QB. Matter of fact, that is THE ONLY reference to anything that even resembles an expert that any Campbell hater anywhere on this board has used. And frankly I don't really consider Sonny much of an expert at this stage. Great man, great Redskin, but not a top notch analyst by any means.

In the meantime, Bill Cowher, Steve Young, Ron Jaworski, our head coach, and plenty of others have had high praise for JC and how quickly he is coming along in the most complex offense despite a badly underperforming O-line and WR corps...[/quote]

I don't like the Cowboys, am I a Dallas hater?

I'm not really fond of one of my employees, guess I'm a hater

People that use the word hater instead of coming to the realization that opinions may differ are no better than those who can't come up with anything logical to them apparently.. well they are haters

sorry I'm such a hater man, I'll try to be more like you

Re: Observation on Campbell
 

I don't think race has anything significant to do with it. I think it's simply pissed off fans doing armchair 'analysis' of what happened on their television screen with an extremely selective memory of what actually happened and using their emotional responses to what happened as 'evidence'.