Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;453483]It could be just that simple. Read [URL="http://www.newsweek.com/id/140066"]this[/URL] very interesting Newsweek article. I don't believe the process will be quick, cheap or easy, but with trillions of dollars to be made, the incentive and investment dollars are there.

[B]Also, I'm not sure what role the government should play in this mess. [/B]Remember, our government is the one that tried to kill Castro with exploding cigars, couldn't deliver drinking water to Katrina victims, and pays $500 for toilet seats. What makes people optimistic that they can solve a problem that greedy multi-billion dollar companies can't?[/quote]
Now? Not much. This is a problem for the market to solve and the American people to bear in the interim (via high gas prices). I was speaking historically and from the perspective of, does it make sense to turn over more land (or off-shore rights) to the oil companies when they've shown so little interest, historically, in coming up with alternatives. I understand the economic argument for handing over the drilling rights, but I think it's short-sighted, because the current course is not sustainable and there has to be some incentive to change it.

Interesting article. There was also a [URL="http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2007/10/biofuels/biofuels-text"]National Geographic article[/URL] a while back that discussed some of the hurdles to biofuels.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=dmek25;453494]but saden, its NOT about the oil. and sheriff, im not blaming the oil crisis on the gov't. but these guys are supposed to be the genius's they claim to be, they should have been looking at alternatives as far back as the 70's. its funny how all of a sudden its a big issue, to everyone.[/quote]


I have been told that production from Iraq will increase and gas prices will decrease because of the supply and demand nature of the oil business. Are you tell me I'll be paying just as much at the pump? *gasp* It can't be..

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=onlydarksets;453502]Now? Not much. This is a problem for the market to solve and the American people to bear in the interim (via high gas prices). I was speaking historically and from the perspective of, does it make sense to turn over more land (or off-shore rights) to the oil companies when they've shown so little interest, historically, in coming up with alternatives. I understand the economic argument for handing over the drilling rights, but I think it's short-sighted, because the current course is not sustainable and there has to be some incentive to change it.

Interesting article. There was also a [URL="http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2007/10/biofuels/biofuels-text"]National Geographic article[/URL] a while back that discussed some of the hurdles to biofuels.[/quote]
How do you sell alternative fuels when they are more expensive than gas? The answer is simple. You can't. Now that gas has gone up so much it startes to bring alternatives into play and I think we will see allot of new ideas hitting the market. There just has not been a market for alternatives. I also think we would be surprised how much has allraedy been spen on alternatives.

Re: F... gas prices
 

Being that the technology for an electric car existed in the 80's, I really can't see a scenario where some sort of alternative plan isn't already in place in some way or form.

Now, I realize that gas prices are going to have to carry out their course before it makes sense for energy companies to provide different methods of turning a profit, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't a gradual evolution of the main sources of energy over the next ten years.

One big problem that I don't think enough people are talking about is whether our current power grids can support the massive transition from fossil fuels and natural gas to electric everything. Obviously, no matter what the source of energy is (nuclear, hydrogen, solar, wind, etc), it has to be converted into electricity to be useful to us. That, I think, is going to be the biggest challenge of moving away from oil and natural gas.

And I do think drilling in ANWR will help soften the transition a lot. I am not sure if its worth it though, maybe we do need a nice swift kick in the fact to wake us, as a people, up.

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When health care, drug policy, and many other topics are debated, you often hear people say "We're the only developed country that..." or "In Europe, they...". Well, we're the only country in the world that has decided to put it's own natural resources off limits. If we don't get the oil out of ANWR, the Russians will figure out a way to slant-drill it a-la Mr. Burns. This should be the easiest decision in the history of our government.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=firstdown;453517][B]How do you sell alternative fuels when they are more expensive than gas?[/B] The answer is simple. You can't. Now that gas has gone up so much it startes to bring alternatives into play and I think we will see allot of new ideas hitting the market. There just has not been a market for alternatives. I also think we would be surprised how much has allraedy been spen on alternatives.[/quote]
That's where I believe the government should have played a role in providing incentives to develop cost-effective alternatives over the last 35 years.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[QUOTE=onlydarksets;453526]That's where I believe the government should have played a role in providing incentives to develop cost-effective alternatives over the last 35 years.[/QUOTE]

You previously noted that the cost of developing and bringing cheap alternative fuel sources to market is exorbitant. If that's true, the government would presumably have to have shelled out hundreds of billions or even trillions of dollars in subsidies or tax breaks to fast-track the process. Right?

People are inherently short-sighted. Congressmen and women look to the problems facing the country now and that will emerger prior to the next election cycle. CEOs of public companies look to the next quarter's profits so they don't get their asses handed to them by their shareholders and boards. Your average Joes don't buy solar panels, even though it will save them money over the long haul and otherwise generally act in their short-term best interests. Our government acts the same way. It sucks, but that's the way I see it.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=onlydarksets;453526]That's where I believe the government should have played a role in providing incentives to develop cost-effective alternatives over the last 35 years.[/quote]

Woulda coulda shoulda. I'm not sure how that helps us now?

Re: F... gas prices
 

As bad as it is here right now, I was listening to BBC radio the other day and they were talking about 5 GBP/liter. Converting GBP to $ and liter to gallon, that gives an equivalent price point of $37.28 per gallon. That is insane.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=Schneed10;453545]Woulda coulda shoulda. I'm not sure how that helps us now?[/quote]
About as much as your post contributed to this thread.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;453542]You previously noted that the cost of developing and bringing cheap alternative fuel sources to market is exorbitant. If that's true, the government would presumably have to have shelled out hundreds of billions or even trillions of dollars in subsidies or tax breaks to fast-track the process. Right?

People are inherently short-sighted. Congressmen and women look to the problems facing the country now and that will emerger prior to the next election cycle. CEOs of public companies look to the next quarter's profits so they don't get their asses handed to them by their shareholders and boards. Your average Joes don't buy solar panels, even though it will save them money over the long haul and otherwise generally act in their short-term best interests. Our government acts the same way. It sucks, but that's the way I see it.[/quote]
Thats the point when gas was 90 cents who was thinking about alternative fuels? No One. Now its is an issue everyone is. For example. Lets say the goverment came out with ethanol which cars could totaly run off but it cost $1.40 a gallon while gas was 90 cents a gallon. Who is going to get elected or run on a platform of switching to the E80. They could but they would loose in a land slide. We as consumers and voters could shoulder just as much blame as anyone but this problem is not just a US problem it is a world problem. As far as I know other countries have done the same thing and are in the same boat. I know that we drive bigger cars but we all depend on expensive gas.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=onlydarksets;453555]About as much as your post contributed to this thread.[/quote]

No, I was being serious and actually trying to contribute to the discussion. My whole point was that I see no purpose in faulting the government for what they've done over the last 35 years. It's kind of similar to faulting Danny for his free agency foray in 2000. It may be an accurate reprisal for all we know, but it serves no go-forward purpose.

The more relevant discussion should be: what can and should the government do to make the situation better for the United States?

I'd say invest in the development of alternative energy sources, while at the same time lifting the moratorium on offshore drilling.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=Schneed10;453557]No, I was being serious and actually trying to contribute to the discussion. My whole point was that I see no purpose in faulting the government for what they've done over the last 35 years. It's kind of similar to faulting Danny for his free agency foray in 2000. It may be an accurate reprisal for all we know, but it serves no go-forward purpose.

The more relevant discussion should be: what can and should the government do to make the situation better for the United States?

I'd say invest in the development of alternative energy sources, while at the same time lifting the moratorium on offshore drilling.[/quote]
That comment was part of a chain of posts discussing the government's role over the past 35 years. It wasn't an out-of-the-blue "let's be mad at the gov't" post.

And of course it serves a purpose - examining our historical approach to this problem should be the basis for choosing a path going forward. We have historically failed to provide oil companies with incentives to find alternative fuels, because they can achieve higher profits without them. Even now, at $4/gallon, consumers are still willing to pick up the tab.

How do you get the oil companies to spend the necessary money to develop alternatives when, as firstdown and SGG have pointed out, they are able to report record profits to Wall Street simply by maintaining the status quo?

Re: F... gas prices
 

Scientists have just genetically altered bacteria that produce renewable crude oil.

[URL="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article4133668.ece"]Scientists find bugs that eat waste and excrete petrol - Times Online[/URL]

[quote]He means bugs. To be more precise: the genetic alteration of bugs – very, very small ones – so that when they feed on agricultural waste such as woodchips or wheat straw, they do something extraordinary. They excrete crude oil. [/quote]

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=Schneed10;453557]No, I was being serious and actually trying to contribute to the discussion. My whole point was that I see no purpose in faulting the government for what they've done over the last 35 years. It's kind of similar to faulting Danny for his free agency foray in 2000. It may be an accurate reprisal for all we know, but it serves no go-forward purpose.

The more relevant discussion should be: what can and should the government do to make the situation better for the United States?

I'd say invest in the development of alternative energy sources, while at the same time lifting the moratorium on offshore drilling.[/quote]

Nice, business as usual.

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=onlydarksets;453559]That comment was part of a chain of posts discussing the government's role over the past 35 years. It wasn't an out-of-the-blue "let's be mad at the gov't" post.

And of course it serves a purpose - examining our historical approach to this problem should be the basis for choosing a path going forward. We have historically failed to provide oil companies with incentives to find alternative fuels, because they can achieve higher profits without them. Even now, at $4/gallon, consumers are still willing to pick up the tab.

How do you get the oil companies to spend the necessary money to develop alternatives when, as firstdown and SGG have pointed out, they are able to report record profits to Wall Street simply by maintaining the status quo?[/quote]

I think SGG has made the point abundantly clear. The incentive already exists for anybody, an oil company or a garage inventor, to develop an alternative fuel source or a mode of transport that does not depend on oil.

The amount of money said inventor stands to make is staggering. I'm not sure why you think we need to incent the oil companies?

Re: F... gas prices
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;453577]I think SGG has made the point abundantly clear. The incentive already exists for anybody, an oil company or a garage inventor, to develop an alternative fuel source or a mode of transport that does not depend on oil.

The amount of money said inventor stands to make is staggering. I'm not sure why you think we need to incent the oil companies?[/QUOTE]

I agree with him that we need to incent oil companies. I believe responsible incentives that require real results is good policy. I am a staunch free marketer and generally want our gov't to stay the hell out of the markets but I think smartly structured incentives could reduce our time on foreign oil by a significant amount. I am willing to try at least.

Re: F... gas prices
 

WASHINGTON -- Lawmakers eager to curb speculation in oil markets got support Monday from witnesses who told a House subcommittee that oil prices could fall sharply if Congress put strict limits on trading in energy futures by investment banks, pension funds and other financial investors.

link: [url=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121426978977398795.html?mod=googlenews_wsj]Free Preview - WSJ.com[/url]

Re: F... gas prices
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;453910]WASHINGTON -- Lawmakers eager to curb speculation in oil markets got support Monday from witnesses who told a House subcommittee that oil prices could fall sharply if Congress put strict limits on trading in energy futures by investment banks, pension funds and other financial investors.

link: [url=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121426978977398795.html?mod=googlenews_wsj]Free Preview - WSJ.com[/url][/QUOTE]

Oh sure Matty, cite some liberal rag like the Wall Street Journal. ;)

Interesting stuff. I've read elsewhere that speculators are driving the price up by $25-$50 p/b. I hadn't read that they're driving the price up by 60%. If they're right, Congress acts, and gas goes back to $2 p/g the economy would get a big boost.

Re: F... gas prices
 

I note that "the experts" are now calling on regulators to increase margin requirements.

I have been calling for this since at least May 16th:

"[B]I think the government shoult make it illegal to trade oil on margin. I think you would see the price drop right away if some of these guys were risking their own hard cash. I think the margin is currently like 5% which is ridiculous[/B]."

Most "experts" are generally 1 to 2 months behind me, depending on their field of endeavor. Everything would be so much simpler if everyone would just do what I tell them.

More May 16 brilliance from me:

"[B]I doubt that increased demand is soley to blame for oil quadrupling in price. I think speculation is driving the increase as well. Hedge fund managers are now into oil big time. Even individuals are getting in for the ride. A friend of mine justified it by saying he had to recoup the losses he was experiencing at the pump. Money chases money. As more and more people are seeing the possibility of making money in commodities rather than stocks and bonds, the price only increases. Imagine if a bunch of moneyed investors suddenly all decided that baseball cards were a sure thing. Their sudden entry into the market would necessarily force the price of a Clemente rookie card through the roof. The question is, is this a permanent thing or at some point will gravity have it's affect. We need a crash badly. As quickly as the money went in, it will run for the exits if the price falls fast enough.

I think there are a few simple steps that could be taken to at least discourage new money from forcing up the price any further. The Democrats may serve useful here as their penchant for regulation would surely be helpful. Maria Cantwell of Washington is making this a pet issue. She's kind of a butter face but she has nice hair and seems relatively bright. It would be worth a try at any rate."[/B]

Re: F... gas prices
 

[URL="http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/07/20/pollution.olympics.cars.ap/index.html"]Just read this on CNN[/URL].

With 3.3 million cars off the roads in Beijing, I wonder that if demand goes down will the cost of oil/barrell go down a little bit during that time as well?

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Gas just dropped 8 cents at my local station over the weekend.

Re: F... gas prices
 

If Gas goes back to $2/gallon that will be a HUGE boost to the economy. I am not knowledgable concerning stocks and commodities. Is it possible that the parties mentioned above (hedge fund managers, investment banks, etc) artificially raised the market price through collusion? Would that be illegal if true?

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;458162]If Gas goes back to $2/gallon that will be a HUGE boost to the economy. I am not knowledgable concerning stocks and commodities. Is it possible that the parties mentioned above (hedge fund managers, investment banks, etc) artificially raised the market price through collusion? Would that be illegal if true?[/quote]

Not possible, and if it was YES it would be illegal!

Re: F... gas prices
 

Gas dropped 40 cents a gallon here in OKC. Its 3.57 now.

Re: F... gas prices
 

40 cents? Seriously? Right down the street from me, a gas station made all their gas for 2 hours (during rush hour.) Apparently, few people had seen 29 in Centreville that bad ever. Really screwed things up.

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[QUOTE=Daseal;458204]40 cents? Seriously? Right down the street from me, a gas station made all their gas for 2 hours (during rush hour.) Apparently, few people had seen 29 in Centreville that bad ever. Really screwed things up.[/QUOTE]

Yeah it blew my mind. Unfortunately I had just filled up two days prior for 3.98.

Re: F... gas prices
 

The amount of gas people must have wasted idling I bet was insane.

Re: F... gas prices
 

btw, cnn had a thing today about people converting their gas cars to electric (off the shelf modifications)... putting something like 23 car batteries in the truck and being able to drive for 1.3 cents per mile...

not eco-friendly (as i've already mentioned) but cheap enough to be worthwhile maybe?

Re: F... gas prices
 

Gas dropped 8 cents at my local Wawa, it's now down to 3.91 a gallon. And Daseal, what do you mean they made all their gas during rush hour? I was watching the news last week and it said from 6-9 in the morning a gas station was selling gas for 2.50 a gallon, is that what you were talking about? The Fox chopper showed the line and it was absolutely insane, like it circled the gas station and went around the block and all the way around a dead end and cops were directing it.

Re: F... gas prices
 

Not sure if this has been posted or not but check this out...makes alot of sense.

This is T Boone Pickens quick 10 minute presentation on how the US could curb their reliance on oil overseas.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Avt8Yo2WE14&feature=user]YouTube - T. Boone Pickens: Longer Explanation of His Plan[/url]

Re: F... gas prices
 

[quote=redsk1;459692]Not sure if this has been posted or not but check this out...makes alot of sense.

This is T Boone Pickens quick 10 minute presentation on how the US could curb their reliance on oil overseas.
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Avt8Yo2WE14&feature=user"]YouTube - T. Boone Pickens: Longer Explanation of His Plan[/URL][/quote]
Gore kind of stole his thunder with his own plan and is calling on all Americia to get on board he just kind of forgot to follow his own advise.
[URL]http://www.thewarpath.net/parking-lot/23915-al-gore-lays-down-green-challenge.html[/URL]

Also in other news I saw gas today for $3.79.

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isn't it funny that now we look at gas for $3.79 a gallon as cheap? i just bought gas at B.J.s for $3.73/ gallon

Re: F... gas prices
 

If prices fall back under $3 I might start calling it cheap. Until then gas prices still suck.

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I was just happy to see my gas prices at my local wawa fall down to 3.83 lol. It still don't matter though because I buy plus, my car gets better mileage from it.

Re: F... gas prices
 

Talked to a lady today that bought gas on Rt. 17 on York County, VA for 37.5 cents a gallon. She thought something wrong with her car when looked at receipt. After going in the office the clerk realized they had put in .375 cents a gallon versus $3.75. Correction was made quickly.

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Just filled up today for 3.37 here in OKC. Its pathetic that i'm bragging about that being cheap.

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We're getting screwed out here...gas is $4.30 around my neighborhood.

Re: F... gas prices
 

The midwest is notorious for high gas prices, so I might have to jump on the $4.05 I just saw.

Next summer, prices could be anywhere between $4.80 and $6.00 around here. Already looking for ways to cut driving out of my living essentials.

Re: F... gas prices
 

Riding my bicycle to work and have been since I dropped the lease on my Caddy 3.6 CTS last Feb.

Gas prices are horrendous in my area (Westlake Village, CA).

Of course cycling to work at midnight is nice, quiet and helping me stay healthy.