Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

i have figured out the Gibbs philosophy! his philosophy is to try and impose the team's will on the opponent... as stated in the previous post - Not happening in today's NFL! the teams are too well-coached, parody is too rampant, and i don't know why this is even an argument.

we are 20-28 in almost 3 years! TWENTY wins in FORTY-EIGHT games!!!!

Sean Payton went to N.O., got rid of over 50% of the team, brought in a good QB and is 8-4!

If you can't do it in 2 years (much less 3), then it probably isn't going to happen!

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=724Skinsfan;255433]Umm..errr...The Steelers had 549 rushing plays versus 379 passing plays. Big Ben didn't break 2,500 yards passing. These stats were brought to you by [url=http://www.nfl.com]NFL.com - Official Site of the National Football League[/url].[/QUOTE]

Just to piggyback on that. When the Steelers were 7-5 last year and won out on their way to a Super Bowl title the following happened in each game:

Final four games of regular season:
44 rushes 20 passes
33 rushes 15 passes
35 rushes 21 passes
41 rushes 16 passes

Playoffs:
30 rushes 21 passes
37 rushes 24 passes
30 rushes 29 passes
26 rushes 22 passes

*I didn't include Roethlisberger's rushing attempts, figuring a lot were inadvertent rushes (being hurried, sacked)

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=724Skinsfan;255433]Umm..errr...The Steelers had 549 rushing plays versus 379 passing plays. Big Ben didn't break 2,500 yards passing. These stats were brought to you by [url=http://www.nfl.com]NFL.com - Official Site of the National Football League[/url].[/QUOTE]

that has nothing to do with what i just said... they went on the road and won 3 games in the playoffs by throwing the ball! if they didn't do that, then we are probably talking about the Indianapolis Colts as the defending Super Bowl champs... I don't know how they keep winning with such a great passing attack! Must be an anomaly, huh? lol

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS;255440]Just to piggyback on that. When the Steelers were 7-5 last year and won out on their way to a Super Bowl title the following happened in each game:

Final four games of regular season:
44 rushes 20 passes
33 rushes 15 passes
35 rushes 21 passes
41 rushes 16 passes

Playoffs:
30 rushes 21 passes
37 rushes 24 passes
30 rushes 29 passes
26 rushes 22 passes

*I didn't include Roethlisberger's rushing attempts, figuring a lot were inadvertent rushes (being hurried, sacked)[/QUOTE]

Those numbers are skewed by the fact that they jumped to big leads or had 2 possession leads in the 4th quarter. I think it is obvious to everyone that you need to be able to pound the ball when you're up 14/21 points!

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS;255440]Just to piggyback on that. When the Steelers were 7-5 last year and won out on their way to a Super Bowl title the following happened in each game:

Final four games of regular season:
44 rushes 20 passes
33 rushes 15 passes
35 rushes 21 passes
41 rushes 16 passes

Playoffs:
30 rushes 21 passes
37 rushes 24 passes
30 rushes 29 passes
26 rushes 22 passes

*I didn't include Roethlisberger's rushing attempts, figuring a lot were inadvertent rushes (being hurried, sacked)[/QUOTE]

Regular Season:

Score: 21 - 9; Big Ben Rating: 109.0
Score: 18 - 3; Rating: 99.0
Score: 41 - 0; Rating: 120.0
Score: 35 -21; Rating: 34.1

Playoffs:

Score: 31 - 17; Rating: 148.7
Score: 21 - 18 (only close in 4th); Rating: 95.3
Score: 34 - 17; Rating: 124.9
Score: 21 - 10; Rating: 22.6

Again, you have to be able to pass effectively in this league to CONSISTENTLY win in the NFL.

I rest my case.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[quote=mason4415;255419]wow... any knowledgable NFL person knows that if you can't throw the ball, you aren't going to win [B]consistently[/B]. you have to be able to throw the ball in today's NFL to be able to win. we aren't in the 1980's anymore![/quote]


You're the one that used the word "consistently, which to me, means over the course of a season.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

Is this thread still going?:smashfrea

Look, Gibbs and Saunders know how to pass--did y'all watch the other teams those guys have coached? They demand BALANCE and that's what we're lacking. We always seem to do one and then not the other. We've had great trouble putting it all together in one game this year, on both sides of the ball.

JC will learn how to do things, and as the coaches get more confident in him, things will run better. But right now he's essentailly a rookie going into his 4th game, with a complex system, spotty pass blocking, and a crap D. It's going to be rough for a while, folks. A little patience is in order. I know, I know, we've been patient, it's been years, we've regressed, etc. But I think the other option is worse--a total tear-daown for a new coach, new staffs, new systems, new players. Sometimes it works--NO is a good example. But often it does not. I think we've got a good staff that will adapt, and I am optimistic about our young QB. But it will take some time, especailly with our weak-ass D.

If we have to change a coach, I'd get rid of GW and give the D to Blache. He's a proven guy, a vet, liked by the players, and he's already there, so he wouldn't have to start everything from scratch.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

To conclude, I am simply pointing out that Joe Gibb's simplistic philosophy of "establishing the run" is vastly out-dated!

Like a previous poster said, at many times we look like a bunch of JV high schoolers out there compared to other teams. The league is not as "simple" as it used to be.

In fact, it is VERY complex and is only getting tougher. If you can't agree with that, then it is hopeless.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=mason4415;255457]To conclude, I am simply pointing out that Joe Gibb's simplistic philosophy of "establishing the run" is vastly out-dated!

Like a previous poster said, at many times we look like a bunch of JV high schoolers out there compared to other teams. The league is not as "simple" as it used to be.

In fact, it is VERY complex and is only getting tougher. If you can't agree with that, then it is hopeless.[/QUOTE]

So I missed yesterday's game. But from what I understand we were running it down their throats and went up 14-0. But then we started passing more and things fell apart. So are you saying? We shouldn't have run to begin with? Really, help me understand your point.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=724Skinsfan;255452]You're the one that used the word "consistently, which to me, means over the course of a season.[/QUOTE]

Look at the top teams in the NFL now. And for the past 10 years. I guarantee a vast majority got consistent top-10 quarterback play. Conversely, look at the top-rated quarterbacks in the past 10 years, I am willing to bet that a vast majority were on winning teams.

Have you ever heard the expression "the quarterback is the most important position on the field"?

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

You need [U]balance[/U] in this league more than anything.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS;255461]So I missed yesterday's game. But from what I understand we were running it down their throats and went up 14-0. But then we started passing more and things fell apart. So are you saying? We shouldn't have run to begin with? Really, help me understand your point.[/QUOTE]

how do you get that? i said that it's about attacking the opponent's weaknesses and pounding the ball when you have a decent lead. in fact, they should've kept pounding the g'dmn ball scattering in a few play-action passes on 1st and 2nd downs.

yesterday was more about not having a killer instinct and thinking that a 1st quarter 14-0 lead is safe!

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

Too many playactions yesterday, limiting the time for campbell to throw. Once the falcsons picked up on the fact that we playactioned on every pass play, they started to read it, and that led to the campbell interception, another point that leads to the balance issue. Can't be predicable in this league.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[quote=JWsleep;255454]If we have to change a coach, I'd get rid of GW and give the D to Blache. He's a proven guy, a vet, liked by the players, and he's already there, so he wouldn't have to start everything from scratch.[/quote]But it was Gregg Williams who brought in these players because his schemes could maximize their physical tools. So why would a coach who isn't Gregg Williams have anymore success with them?

If Gregg Williams can't get results with these players, then the defense needs to be gutted, meaning the following guys have to go:

Gregg Williams
Philip Daniels
Renaldo Wynn
Cornelius Griffin
Shawn Springs
Warrick Holdman
maybe Marcus Washington

Lemar Marshall would be in the last year of his contract in 2007, which isn't to be extended barring a great 07 campaign.

Your building blocks are these guys:

Sean Taylor
Carlos Rogers
Andre Carter
Rocky McIntosh
Marcus, if he isn't cut

And that's how you have to rebuild the D.

If GW gets it together these last 4 weeks, then its a different story.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[quote=Mattyk72;255463]You need [U]balance[/U] in this league more than anything.[/quote]Very true, but balance doesn't necessarily have to be run vs pass. You can run in many different ways and throw in many different ways. It's about keeping the D off balance.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;255463]You need [U]balance[/U] in this league more than anything.[/QUOTE]

i completely agree with you but only on a macro-level... balance means you can pass for 400 yards in one game and run for 300 in another... like yesterday, they didn't need balance. they needed to pound the ball. Betts should've had 280 yards rushing yesterday.

there have been other games when we weren't able to run the ball well. we should be able to throw the ball 45 times for 350/400 yards in order to compete. THAT is what we're missing. and a lot of it is coaching.

contrary to what many people believe, balance is not needed on gameday. balance is needed in terms of the entire season.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;255472]Very true, but balance doesn't necessarily have to be run vs pass. You can run in many different ways and throw in many different ways. It's about keeping the D off balance.[/QUOTE]

this is pretty much what i am trying to say! thanks!

and i am saying gibbs does not understand this!

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

Polls are all about how they are worded. For example, if you say "Do you think Joe Gibbs should be fired" I would guess the result of that poll would be a majority would say no. But, if you say "Do you believe that Joe Gibbs performance over the past 3 years merits a return for year 4?" I would guess the majority of people would say no as well. If you really want go gauge the currnet attitude of Skins fans regarding the current coaching staff, you have to be careful how the poll/question is phrased.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan;255480]Polls are all about how they are worded. For example, if you say "Do you think Joe Gibbs should be fired" I would guess the result of that poll would be a majority would say no. But, if you say "Do you believe that Joe Gibbs performance over the past 3 years merits a return for year 4?" I would guess the majority of people would say no as well. If you really want go gauge the currnet attitude of Skins fans regarding the current coaching staff, you have to be careful how the poll/question is phrased.[/QUOTE]
you sound like a follow sociology major. You working at Burger King too?

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

so i guess people that want Gibbs gone would like to see a Tug-of-War with the playcalling responsibilities.. when they were doing good in the first quarter i saw people praising Saunders. but when it went down hill its Gibbs' fault..

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

LOL. ITs true though, the media take advantage of polls all the time and how they are worded. Most fans have a soft spot for Gibbs because of the past, therefore if you come right out and ask, "Should Joe be fired" they will hesitate and most would reluctantly say no. Ask those same fans if, based on his record over the past 3 years he deserves to return, and many of those same fans would say no as well. Someone hit on it earlier, the better question might be if fans expect the ship to be righted with the current arrangement of coaching and philosopy.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

Coach Gibbs is under contract for 2 more years he will be here for that and i personally wouldnt mind longer. so stop the talk about gibbs should be gone crap.. hes not going so no need to beat a dead horse.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[quote=mason4415;255476]this is pretty much what i am trying to say! thanks!

and i am saying gibbs does not understand this![/quote]


When Gibbs was calling the plays last year his play selection was 352 run versus 356 pass. I think he has a decent idea about balance. Moss set a Redskin record for receiving yards, Brunell had one of his best seasons statistically and Portis broke the Redskins rushing record.

Oops, those were lthis years numbers. Last year's numbers are: 525 versus 481.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=mason4415;255430]this post makes me angry and is exactly why the redskins are where they are!

true, T/O ratio is one of the most important keys to winning. but running the ball certain is not! being balanced enough to take advantage of opponents weaknesses is a must in today's NFL, i.e. the New England Patriots. It's not about establishing "Redskins" smash mouth football. See last year's Steelers. They made it to the Super Bowl by THROWING THE FOOTBALL and taking what was given to them.[/QUOTE]

Ah, the age old debate: does the running game open the passing game, or vice versa? I don't think it matters. The reason running the ball effectively is important is because of possession.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=paulskinsfan;255487]LOL. ITs true though, the media take advantage of polls all the time and how they are worded. Most fans have a soft spot for Gibbs because of the past, therefore if you come right out and ask, "Should Joe be fired" they will hesitate and most would reluctantly say no. Ask those same fans if, based on his record over the past 3 years he deserves to return, and many of those same fans would say no as well. Someone hit on it earlier, the better question might be if fans expect the ship to be righted with the current arrangement of coaching and philosopy.[/QUOTE]
You've pretty much summed up my feelings exactly.
People get so emotional talking about Gibbs because of what he did for this team in the past, so they'll give him so much more slack than they would ever give anyone else. If Bill Walsh came here (and wasn't 108) to coach the team and had the same record we'd all be calling for his head, but since it's Gibbs we all want to believe that he'll knows exactly how to turn it all around.

I'm sorry to break this to you, but people lose "it;" if you don' believe me, just look at britney spears.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[quote=mason4415;255473]i completely agree with you but only on a macro-level... balance means you can pass for 400 yards in one game and run for 300 in another... like yesterday, they didn't need balance. they needed to pound the ball. Betts should've had 280 yards rushing yesterday.

there have been other games when we weren't able to run the ball well. we should be able to throw the ball 45 times for 350/400 yards in order to compete. THAT is what we're missing. and a lot of it is coaching.

contrary to what many people believe, balance is not needed on gameday. balance is needed in terms of the entire season.[/quote]

I disagree, we did need balance yesterday.

You can't just continue running the ball regardless of the situations. What we needed yesterday were some key plays from the passing game. We needed to make some plays to get them out of that all blitz mode, which we couldn't do.

If we could have made 4-5 key plays through the air it could have been a different game.

Balance in this case doesn't mean we needed a 50/50 split of runs to passes, balance just means we needed more production from the passing game when called upon.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[quote=GTripp0012;255472]Very true, but balance doesn't necessarily have to be run vs pass. You can run in many different ways and throw in many different ways. It's about keeping the D off balance.[/quote]

I completely agree.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

Someone "needs to go" after every loss. It's so rediculous...the redskins fans as a whoile criticise the Redskins for never sticking with a plan and trying to reinvent the wheel after every season...but that's exactly what the fans do after every loss. It's f-ing rediculous...

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=celts32;255516]Someone "needs to go" after every loss. It's so rediculous...the redskins fans as a whoile criticise the Redskins for never sticking with a plan and trying to reinvent the wheel after every season...but that's exactly what the fans do after every loss. It's f-ing rediculous...[/QUOTE]Is that any more ridiculous than the way everyone goes crazy after every win, even sloppy ones? After the panthers game (which they lost moreso than we won) people had us winning out and making the playoffs even though we've been consistantly bad all season.
And back to an arguement that I made earlier: by bringing in Saunders and his 700 page playbook we did change this offseason, so enough with the whole "Gibbs brings us consistancy" arguement.
At this point I do think we need to keep Saunders this offseason for Jason Campbell's sake and Gibbs can either stay or go. But if he does go we need to bring in a defensive minded head coach who will let Saunders do his thing on offense.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[quote=ArtMonkDrillz;255523]Is that any more ridiculous than the way everyone goes crazy after every win, even sloppy ones? After the panthers game (which they lost moreso than we won) people had us winning out and making the playoffs even though we've been consistantly bad all season.[/quote]

Both extremes are ridiculous.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;255524]Both extremes are ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. And that's exactly why I hate listening to the post game call-in shows when I'm driving home from games, regardless of the outcome.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

The reality is every year with every team in the NFL brings some degree of change and adjusting. I think as Redskins fans, we've longed for stability so long, and rightfully so, that we've some how bought into the notion that if we 'stick it out' for another two years or more with the current format, then we've become 'consistant' and it validates our decision making. Well, you can also become consistantly bad, or stuborn..it carries a lot of canotations.

With all that being said, I'm torn on whether Al Saunders should go for the simple reason it could further stunt JC's maturity.

This is become as complicated as an 'Exit Strategy.'

In today's NFL you really are given a 3-5 window to do your thing.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

So I mean is the issue that Gibbs has lost it and that's why he has to go, or that he didn't lose it, but he thought he did and picked Saunders who doesn't have it, and that's why he has to go?

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

Why would he bring in Saunders if he thought he could still get the job done himself?

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=724Skinsfan;255489]When Gibbs was calling the plays last year his play selection was 352 run versus 356 pass. I think he has a decent idea about balance. Moss set a Redskin record for receiving yards, Brunell had one of his best seasons statistically and Portis broke the Redskins rushing record.

Oops, those were lthis years numbers. Last year's numbers are: 525 versus 481.[/QUOTE]

i said he didn't understand keeping the defense off-balance.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=ArtMonkDrillz;255561]Why would he bring in Saunders if he thought he could still get the job done himself?[/QUOTE]

That's what I was trying to say. Maybe I wasn't clear

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

Skins have been consistantly bad, the reason is the FO. Not the current coaches or personnel because the front office is what put everything in place, cannot blame coaches, can only blame FO for puttting the wrong people in place and giving the wrong people personnel decisions, and paying the wrong people the wrong amount of money. The consistency of the poor front office has led to the consistency of poor performance year after year. Gibbs cannot be blamed, and neither can Saunders or Williams, they were all proven coaches under OTHER front offices.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;255507]I disagree, we did need balance yesterday.

You can't just continue running the ball regardless of the situations. What we needed yesterday were some key plays from the passing game. We needed to make some plays to get them out of that all blitz mode, which we couldn't do.

If we could have made 4-5 key plays through the air it could have been a different game.

Balance in this case doesn't mean we needed a 50/50 split of runs to passes, balance just means we needed more production from the passing game when called upon.[/QUOTE]

that's a pretty loose definition of balance... 4/5 key plays through the air over a course of the entire game!

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

I always thought the act itself served as a profound example of selflessness. He stood up in front of the whole world and showed that he was not infallible and was willing to step down as the primary playcaller for a guy who at the time had established himself as the absolute #1 offensive mastermind.

Calling Gibbs washed up because he brought in the NFL's #1 offensive coordinator to enhance the Redskins offense is at best irrational. Anyone can argue decision making based hindsight.

Re: Im done....Gibbs must go.
 

[QUOTE=The Zimmermans;255566]Skins have been consistantly bad, the reason is the FO. Not the current coaches or personnel because the front office is what put everything in place, cannot blame coaches, can only blame FO for puttting the wrong people in place and giving the wrong people personnel decisions, and paying the wrong people the wrong amount of money. The consistency of the poor front office has led to the consistency of poor performance year after year. Gibbs cannot be blamed, and neither can Saunders or Williams, they were all proven coaches under OTHER front offices.[/QUOTE]

but Gibbs is the President of the organization (front office)! as president and head coach, i'm sorry, but i just cannot see where gibbs isn't to blame.