Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[quote=Schneed10;458215]This was basically the point of my post. Sabermetrics is relatively useless in football because nobody's been able to do any of the things I mentioned.[/quote]

i understand that, but when you go from saying there's a probability that brady would win you five more games to stating it as a fact that's annoying some i think.

those stats aren't proven, and while it is useful, they're not definitive, it's just probabilities vs average (and generally, it's average production, not average talent)... the actual game scorers that provide their basic data feed are NOT accounted for either among other things (ie, philly's scorers tend to count passes throw directly out of bounds as PDs for the nearest defender, but most scorers don't do that).

because most of the work doesn't factor out all that much (it's better than nothing, but on a scale of 1 to 10, it might be a 3 or 4) so quoting it as definitive or fact is really pretty misleading.

*the team stats are actually pretty decent, it's just the individual stats and finding specific answers based off vague input data that's not great.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[quote=Schneed10;458198]I'd be interested to hear what kind of analysis you're doing to strip out the covariances involved with the multiple variables driving team performance. That's the big reason sabermetrics has not caught on in football. With baseball, you can normalize your data set rather easily because in the end, it largely boils down to a pitcher vs hitter matchup, with a few variables like day vs night, score, and situation to adjust for. But in football, the QB's performance depend's upon the line's ability to block the defense, the WRs' ability to get open, the effectiveness of the running game, the score, the quarter, etcetera. It's hard enough to quantify some of these variables, and even harder to mathematically formulate the covariance quotients to effectively tease them out and normalize your data. Have you done anything on this front?[/quote]The other big issue is sample size: one football game provides about two weeks of equivalent data in baseball.

To an extent, you have to leave the team oriented variables in there often. One of the biggest allies of statistical analysis in football is roster turnover: parts come and go, and production changes accordingly, so over multiple years, you can see which positions and players are more valuable, and exactly what the numbers are showing.

As far as the normalizing of the data, I'm not really working on the frontlines there. There are people out there who are much better than I am working with correlations and statistical significance, and that type of work (such as [URL="http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teameff.php"]FO's DVOA metric[/URL] or [URL="http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teameff.php"]Doug Drinen's Approximate Value metric[/URL]).

A lot of the work I do is simply taking the results that other systems churn out, and trying to work through team and coaching variables to better translate those numbers into wins and losses. Basically, I'm best when working with the statistical defenses of roster moves (or lack thereof).

Like I said earlier, my current project is trying to find out how many wins Jason Taylor adds over Phillip Daniels. Once I figure this out, I'll know just how long Jason Taylor has to play at a high level to be worth a second round draft pick.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;458208]I'm just a big believer in playing the guys you signed and brought in. If James is totally useless and isn't ready to play this year then why sign him in the first place? If they think Jackson has no ability except to be a camp scrub then why draft him? Can't Washington rush off the edge too? I don't believe in the quick fix because history shows it simply doesn't work. I believe in coaching up the guys you've got and going that route. Buges did it with Heyer last year. Wasn't Heyer a free agent??? Now going into this year Heyer has gained valuable experience and is a solid back-up with playing experience in case Jansen isn't effective. Why can't this new D-line coach do the same thing?[/QUOTE]

I think it's quite possible the new d-line coach is doing what Buges did with Heyer. He's got his starters, and he's got his projects. One might turn into a potential starter next year (like Heyer did), and there you go -- we developed the guys we brought in, and we also got JT to help get us there. Also, let's not lose sight of the value that JT provides to our younger d-linemen.

In the end, it's all about moderation -- develop some guys, and also get some guys that don't need development.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

Those of you who think JT is too old to contribute in a BIG way are crazy. You don't just lose everything you had because you are one year (day) older. It happens slowly, and from what I've seen, JT has not yet begun to decline. I mean, look at Daniels -- the guy's 35, and not even worthy to stand in JT's shadow. Yet, he has been a great player for us -- for more than just one year -- and we got him in his 30's.

Just because a guy is over 30 doesn't mean squat. It means even less when you're talking about a future HoFer.

IMO, there is no more influential position on defense than DE. When you can add *one* guy, and receive a greatly improved defensive unit as a result, then you do it -- especially for a 2nd rounder. So, think of it this way: would you trade a 2nd rounder to make our entire defense better, and get a beast of a pass rusher in the process? Of course.

Also consider that JC won't have to score as many points, if our defense can limit opponents better than last year. That's invaluable.

If JT stays healthy, he makes our *entire* team better.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

All I know is I haven't heard one analyst all day on ESPN or NFL Radio call the Taylor trade a bad move for either team. In fact several said gave the Redskins the slight edge in the deal.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;458246]Those of you who think JT is too old to contribute in a BIG way are crazy. You don't just lose everything you had because you are one year (day) older. It happens slowly, and from what I've seen, JT has not yet begun to decline. I mean, look at Daniels -- the guy's 35, and not even worthy to stand in JT's shadow. Yet, he has been a great player for us -- for more than just one year -- and we got him in his 30's.[/quote]Two things, although I largely agree with what you said that decline is a gradual process.

Some players really do fall off the face of the earth. Think Warren Sapp in 2007, or Curtis Martin in 2005. Sapp had a rejuvenated year in 2006, but was a shell of his former self this year. Martin hit the wall and was never effective again after leading the league in rushing in 2004.

The other thing is, we gave up something significant to get him, so even gradual decline could indicate that we got the short end of the stick. Sure, Taylor could absolutely take a backseat role after 2008, and provide some key pass rush off the bench, but we certainly didn't give up a 2nd so we could move him to the bench after a season.

Clearly we made an investment in Taylor and we need him to produce big time. But as you mentioned in your post, a pro bowl year is hardly out of the question.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;458254]Two things, although I largely agree with what you said that decline is a gradual process.

Some players really do fall off the face of the earth. Think Warren Sapp in 2007, or Curtis Martin in 2005. Sapp had a rejuvenated year in 2006, but was a shell of his former self this year. Martin hit the wall and was never effective again after leading the league in rushing in 2004.

The other thing is, we gave up something significant to get him, so even gradual decline could indicate that we got the short end of the stick. Sure, Taylor could absolutely take a backseat role after 2008, and provide some key pass rush off the bench, but we certainly didn't give up a 2nd so we could move him to the bench after a season.

Clearly we made an investment in Taylor and we need him to produce big time. But as you mentioned in your post, a pro bowl year is hardly out of the question.[/QUOTE]

I would say that Sapp's 2006 year was kind of exceptional. In the five years preceeding 2006, Sapp averaged 5.2 sacks. He got 10 in 2006, and 2 in 2007. So, I would say he gradually declined, and it started happening the last three years he was with Tampa. Oakland just somehow managed to get one last good year from him -- even after his decline.

As for Martin, he was injured in 2005, but he definitely wasn't playing well before that happened. Yeah, he pretty much fell off.

I think a lot has to do with the position as well. It seems more likely a RB will fall-off immediately, rather than a QB, safety, DE, etc.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;458263]I would say that Sapp's 2006 year was kind of exceptional. In the five years preceeding 2006, Sapp averaged 5.2 sacks. He got 10 in 2006, and 2 in 2007. So, I would say he gradually declined, and it started happening the last three years he was with Tampa. Oakland just somehow managed to get one last good year from him -- even after his decline.[/quote]That's a good point. Maybe the on field production masked a continual decline in physical skills.

Maybe it's possible that Taylor's skills are already declining, but if it is, I certainly can't find any statistical evidence of it.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

Even "if" JT is declining, he still is a better DE then what we just lost. If he even repeats his down year of 11 sacks in 2008 he will be the first player with that many on this team since 2000. He instantly draws the double rush off of carter for him to be more productive. You can't go by stats alone, he played for a 1-15 team, and he still achieved a double digit sack total. Im for a over 13 sack total this year because there is no way the line he played with last year was better then what he will have this year.

Press Conference @ 6pm [url=http://www.redskins.com/news/newsDetail.jsp?id=8433]TAYLOR PRESS CONFERENCE TODAY![/url]

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[QUOTE=Skinny Tee;457883]I guess I'm pleased that it's not a 1st. Also JT is going to be better than Daniels so I can't complain much.

He's going to a great market if he wants major exposure before he starts his Hollywood career.[/QUOTE]
These "showy" types concern me because he could end up like Deion Sanders...all bling, no bang. Time will tell whether he's using us or not.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

I feel this was a good trade for the Redskins. Taylor is a dominate player and our defensive will be that much better. Not taking anything away from Philip Daniels, but Taylor has the creds and he will be a force our "D". Welcome to the Redskins, Jason.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

so...any of you know what we do with Buzbee and Daniels?
I figure the ideal situation is to cut both and not take up a roster space on IR.
What is the impact to the cap?
Can this be done?

I still say we need to sign a run stuffing end or a solid DT and absolutely still need an experienced OLB

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[quote=skinsnut;458324]so...any of you know what we do with Buzbee and Daniels?
I figure the ideal situation is to cut both and not take up a roster space on IR.
What is the impact to the cap?
Can this be done?

I still say we need to sign a run stuffing end or a solid DT and absolutely still need an experienced OLB[/quote]
Buzbee has minimal effect, only $ 370K this year. Daniels is a larger number, about $ 2.7M in salary. Either way, I don't believe you can release a player who is injured until the off-season, or if you do you still are liable for their salary and cap #.

The cap/contract folks would need to confirm this.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[QUOTE=Slingin Sammy 33;458326]Buzbee has minimal effect, only $ 370K this year. Daniels is a larger number, about $ 2.7M in salary. Either way, I don't believe you can release a player who is injured until the off-season, or if you do you still are liable for their salary and cap #.

The cap/contract folks would need to confirm this.[/QUOTE]

is schneed out there?
I smell injury settlements with release...only I don't know if we can afford it unless it is all salary

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[quote=Skinnette;458286]These "showy" types concern me because he could end up like Deion Sanders...all bling, no bang. Time will tell whether he's using us or not.[/quote]

Jason Taylor and Dieon Sanders are two very different people in my opinions. Taylor likes the limelight but he always seems to have a bit of humility. Sanders on the other hand will dance and talk at all times even if his team is loosing.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;458326]Buzbee has minimal effect, only $ 370K this year. Daniels is a larger number, about $ 2.7M in salary. Either way, I don't believe you can release a player who is injured until the off-season, or if you do you still are liable for their salary and cap #.

The cap/contract folks would need to confirm this.[/quote]

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but if Madden is right :doh: then Daniels salary will not count against the cap since the team has him on IR. And on top of that you can't release a player who is injured, the Shaun Alexander saga this past offseason proved that.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

Should Taylor make an easy transition to LDE , having both Ends getting up field changes the play calling for the Opp's Off. Cord. As long as we do not suffer in stopping the run , our DB's are much better . This move could put some more zip in other vets like Griff and M Washington . I do not know if Blache likes to blitz , but are lb's will have more gaps to run through when we dial one up . Of course , with AC and JT coming off the edge , we might not need to blitz ?

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

I don't know how legit this is, or who it might be. But there's a rumor supposedly that the Redskins are picking up another veteran DE in a couple days (a "run stopper).

I don't know who it is. I know there's talk of Eric Hicks coming to camp, but I don't think he's who is being talked about

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;458342]I don't know how legit this is, or who it might be. But there's a rumor supposedly that the Redskins are picking up another veteran DE in a couple days (a "run stopper).

I don't know who it is. I know there's talk of Eric Hicks coming to camp, but I don't think he's who is being talked about[/QUOTE]

well..this guy is 6'6" 280...that sounds like a run stuffer end to me

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

Shouldn't they be looking to bring in a DB or LB instead of another DE?

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

Here's a little food for thought.. I was thinking about this while listening to Jason's press conference today.

1. He was introduced as a Redskin to us on the 21st
2. His last name is Taylor - and will line up with our D
3. He is from, and loved Miami

... Coincidence? I think not. Thanks Sean for looking out for us!!!

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

I have been out of pocket for a little while, so I get on the site a few minutes ago and see this...holy crap I am excited! This is a great move for us. A second rounder for a hall of famer with a couple years left is a good deal. We now have a legitimate pass rush which is something we haven't had in years.

Due to the fact that I do not have time to read through 18 pages, I have 2 questions that could have already been answered, but I would appreciate a re-cap, or a link if you know where the answer is:
1- What are the salary cap implications for us for getting Taylor?
2- What number will Taylor have, I'd love to get his jersey.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

FYI- John Clayton reported on NFL live that he thinks we have a good shot at 50 sacks this season with Taylor on the line. That's great news considering we had 33 last year...and I don't recall the last time we had 50.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[quote=jsarno;458364]FYI- John Clayton reported on NFL live that he thinks we have [B]a good shot at 50 sacks this season[/B] with Taylor on the line. That's great news considering we had 33 last year...and I don't recall the last time we had 50.[/quote]I like John Clayton a lot, I really do, but when I read this, I instantly thought of Steve Phillips prediction the '08 Detroit Tigers would score 1000 runs this year.

Not going to happen. I'd be happy with a 5 sack improvement on the 33 figure from last year.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;458365]I like John Clayton a lot, I really do, but when I read this, I instantly thought of Steve Phillips prediction the '08 Detroit Tigers would score 1000 runs this year.

Not going to happen. I'd be happy with a 5 sack improvement on the 33 figure from last year.[/QUOTE]

That would make this trade a colossal bust if we improved by only 5 sacks.. You'd be [i]happy[/i] with that?

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[quote=hesscl34;458345]Here's a little food for thought.. I was thinking about this while listening to Jason's press conference today.

1. He was introduced as a Redskin to us on the 21st
2. His last name is Taylor - and will line up with our D
3. He is from, and loved Miami

... Coincidence? I think not. Thanks Sean for looking out for us!!![/quote]

You might be on to something!

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

JT's presence alone in the lineup should help open things up for everyone else. If we only log 38 sacks this year I'd definitely call it a huge flop. 50 might be on the high end, but I can see us in the mid 40's.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[quote=Paintrain;458387]That would make this trade a colossal bust if we improved by only 5 sacks.. You'd be [I]happy[/I] with that?[/quote]Not happy, happy, but you know what I mean. Satisfied.

A 5 sack increase is significant over last year. 7-8 sacks would be even better, and the more sacks they get, the happier I am.

Remember that older units trend downwards in terms of production, so the Redskins had to improve their pass rush just to stay at 33 sacks. I think Taylor is good enough to get us to 38-40, but 50 sacks is a pipe dream.

Taylor himself should get about ten sacks, but some those sacks are going to be taken from Carter, Washington, and Rocky. Only Rocky is a good bet to match his sack production from last year (3). If anything, the addition of Taylor means that Washington will be asked to come less often on the pass rush. He won't line up as a down lineman on passing downs anymore.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

Someone mentioned that JT has more career defended passes & Int.s than Carlos Rogers. That's not a knock on Rogers really, I believe batted down passes count as passes defended.

Let's not forget that dude is 6'5 & athletic, even when he's blocked he is an obstacle at the line & he's quick enough to get a good vertical jump. He'll knock down some balls, something the skins D has done very well under GW, hopefully we see that continue w/Blache.

Also, JT plays the screen very well & gets downfield after recievers on those quick hit slants & hooks. We could improve by 5 sacks this year & see a big difference. QBs will be quicker to get rid of the ball. We might see less of an impact on sacks & more int.s & fumbles.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[QUOTE=freddyg12;458401]Someone mentioned that JT has more career defended passes & Int.s than Carlos Rogers. That's not a knock on Rogers really, I believe batted down passes count as passes defended.

Let's not forget that dude is 6'5 & athletic, even when he's blocked he is an obstacle at the line & he's quick enough to get a good vertical jump. He'll knock down some balls, something the skins D has done very well under GW, hopefully we see that continue w/Blache.

Also, JT plays the screen very well & gets downfield after recievers on those quick hit slants & hooks. We could improve by 5 sacks this year & see a big difference. QBs will be quicker to get rid of the ball. [b]We might see less of an impact on sacks & more int.s & fumbles.[/b][/QUOTE]

That's exactly what I was thinking. I [I]definitely[/I] expect more picks.

I'm thinking Springs will get his share of picks, but QBs will probably target Rogers more. I'd like to see him get 3 - 5 picks, as well as Landry.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

A decent article outlining the thoughts of the NFL Network analysts about the Jason Taylor trade:

[url=http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story;jsessionid=E2DA21B23BBC4F823010812F49F9582D?id=09000d5d8096b75e&template=with-video&confirm=true]Good deal: Dolphins, Redskins, and Taylor all winners[/url]

Deion Sanders:
"Washington already had a solid defense and this just adds to it."

Steve Mariucci:
"I understand why it took so long to get a deal done. To give away a second-round pick for a guy that stated he may only play one year; you expect a player acquired for a second-rounder to play four to five years on your team. I’m sure the Redskins discussed with him about playing more than one year."

Brian Ball-dinger:
"[Jason Taylor] changes games. He’s instantly the best pass rusher in that division; he’s the most complete."

Rich Eisen:
"Jason Taylor gets a chance for a ring. Miami gets a second-round pick and the Redskins get one of the game's best."

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;458365]I like John Clayton a lot, I really do, but when I read this, I instantly thought of Steve Phillips prediction the '08 Detroit Tigers would score 1000 runs this year.[/quote]

I thought that was a bit overzealous as well. They are on pace for 806 runs this year. However, Phillips tends to use emotion with his predictions while Clayton is more level headed. Clayton is right A LOT. While he didn't guarentee a 50 sack season, he did say we could be close. To me, 45 is close, and 48 would be amazing!

[quote]Not going to happen. I'd be happy with a 5 sack improvement on the 33 figure from last year.[/QUOTE]

I do not think a 5 sack improvement would be something I'd be happy with. We need more than that. We have complained about our pass rush for a while, and while 33 was an improvement last year, it was not what we were looking for. Let us not forget that Taylor outsacked Carter last year. With those two together, they should create A LOT of disruption.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

I have mixed feelings about the trade. I like the fact that we got a guy who is a veteran leader who probably still has some gas left in the tank and can bring a consistent defensive presence to that left-side, which we lacked last year. I also like the fact that we didn't give up a 1st rounder for him.

Now, I don't like the fact that we were relying on a 34-year old to start on that side and didn't have any depth at such an important position so we had to make a typical 'reactive' move.

To me, it would have been proactive to use one of our early draft picks on a DE.

If you asked me would I rather have:

Scenario #1 - Devin Thomas, Malcolm Kelly, Fred Davis, Jason Taylor

or

Scenario #2 - Devin Thomas, Calais Campbell, Fred Davis, 2nd round pick, 6th round pick

I would choose scenario #2.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[QUOTE=Drift Reality;458478]I have mixed feelings about the trade. I like the fact that we got a guy who is a veteran leader who probably still has some gas left in the tank and can bring a consistent defensive presence to that left-side, which we lacked last year. I also like the fact that we didn't give up a 1st rounder for him.

Now, I don't like the fact that we were relying on a 34-year old to start on that side and didn't have any depth at such an important position so we had to make a typical 'reactive' move.

To me, it would have been proactive to use one of our early draft picks on a DE.

If you asked me would I rather have:

Scenario #1 - Devin Thomas, Malcolm Kelly, Fred Davis, Jason Taylor

or

Scenario #2 - Devin Thomas, Calais Campbell, Fred Davis, 2nd round pick, 6th round pick

I would choose scenario #2.[/QUOTE]

This post reminds me of the old saying..."learn to accept the things you can not change". We didn't do scenario 2, so we have to move on and work with what we have. I love the move personally. It's one of those rare moves that is a complete slam dunk for both teams.

Don't forget, there could have been a scenario 3 where we traded away a first rounder, or even a second rounder and another higher pick. I think the team did well with showing patience for a change.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[quote=Drift Reality;458478]I have mixed feelings about the trade. I like the fact that we got a guy who is a veteran leader who probably still has some gas left in the tank and can bring a consistent defensive presence to that left-side, which we lacked last year. I also like the fact that we didn't give up a 1st rounder for him.

Now, I don't like the fact that we were relying on a 34-year old to start on that side and didn't have any depth at such an important position so we had to make a typical 'reactive' move.

To me, it would have been proactive to use one of our early draft picks on a DE.

If you asked me would I rather have:

Scenario #1 - Devin Thomas, Malcolm Kelly, Fred Davis, Jason Taylor

or

Scenario #2 - Devin Thomas, Calais Campbell, Fred Davis, 2nd round pick, 6th round pick

I would choose scenario #2.[/quote]

we'll see how campbell does, but as a prospect the keywords were slow and lazy....i mean, was it 8 reps of 225 when he weighs 280? yikes. the production wasn't great and the numbers were terrible.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[QUOTE=That Guy;458483]we'll see how campbell does, but as a prospect the keywords were slow and lazy....i mean, was it 8 reps of 225 when he weighs 280? yikes. the production wasn't great and the numbers were terrible.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry but in my opinion the measurables like bench and 40 time aren't really that important.

The measurable I would be concerned with is the 10.5 sacks he registered playing at the U (and the fact that he was a standout at the U).

Anyway, time will tell...

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;458479]This post reminds me of the old saying..."learn to accept the things you can not change". We didn't do scenario 2, so we have to move on and work with what we have. I love the move personally. It's one of those rare moves that is a complete slam dunk for both teams.

Don't forget, there could have been a scenario 3 where we traded away a first rounder, or even a second rounder and another higher pick. I think the team did well with showing patience for a change.[/QUOTE]

It could always be worse. But I don't think we should base our expectations on the least common denominator though.

Again, I just said I had mixed feelings. I think he will be a solid contributor if healthy this year and next year.

I feel like they could have realized their lack of depth at this position earlier and tried to bolster this position. That's all I'm saying.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

I would definitely go with scenario #1. If you're looking at stats from last year -- hands down the defense was ahead of the offense. The focus was on improving the offense. We have always had a solid defense, two DE's injured on the first day of training is pretty rare. Just like last year losing two starting OL , that's pretty rare. Luckily we had cap space to sign Jason Taylor, now that's planning!!!

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[quote=Drift Reality;458478]Now, I don't like the fact that we were relying on a 34-year old to start on that side and didn't have any depth at such an important position so we had to make a typical 'reactive' move.

To me, it would have been proactive to use one of our early draft picks on a DE.

If you asked me would I rather have:

Scenario #1 - Devin Thomas, Malcolm Kelly, Fred Davis, Jason Taylor

or

Scenario #2 - Devin Thomas, Calais Campbell, Fred Davis, 2nd round pick, 6th round pick

I would choose scenario #2.[/quote]And that statement, plus the fact that "40 times and bench press aren't that important" is why I'm thankful you're not our GM. While speed is not essential for a LDE, strength certainly is. When a guy is supposed to be an NFL caliber LDE and he posts the WORST bench numbers at the combine, that's a major red flag.

To clarify That Guy's bench #s: Campbell put up 8 reps at 225lbs in Jan 2008, at the combine in April he put up 16 reps at 225lbs (still the worst of all D-linemen).

You make the assumption in Scenario # 2 that Campbell would be able to step in and start for Daniels today. That assumption is dead wrong, whether Campbell eventually turns into a productive player or not (he won't IMO) we would still have to fill Daniels' spot NOW even with Campbell here. And worse, what if Campbell is a bust (good probability).

So now your Scenario #2 looks like this:
D. Thomas, bust and/or still a need at LDE, Fred Davis, 2nd Rounder & 6th rounder.

Re: Redskins trade for Jason Taylor (updated)
 

[QUOTE=Slingin Sammy 33;458529]And that statement, plus the fact that "40 times and bench press aren't that important" is why I'm thankful you're not our GM. While speed is not essential for a LDE, strength certainly is. When a guy is supposed to be an NFL caliber LDE and he posts the WORST bench numbers at the combine, that's a major red flag.

To clarify That Guy's bench #s: Campbell put up 8 reps at 225lbs in Jan 2008, at the combine in April he put up 16 reps at 225lbs (still the worst of all D-linemen).

You make the assumption in Scenario # 2 that Campbell would be able to step in and start for Daniels today. That assumption is dead wrong, whether Campbell eventually turns into a productive player or not (he won't IMO) we would still have to fill Daniels' spot NOW even with Campbell here. And worse, what if Campbell is a bust (good probability).

So now your Scenario #2 looks like this:
D. Thomas, bust and/or still a need at LDE, Fred Davis, 2nd Rounder & 6th rounder.[/QUOTE]

I'm guessing you don't know much about football. What did Reggie White bench? What did LT bench?

Ask anyone who knows football about the importance of bench. Players don't lay on a bench and lift weights in the NFL - they get on a field and knock heads.