Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

Campbell is not the biggest problem. But he's a problem at the most important position on any team. If there was a problem at one of the special teams position, I wouldn't worry about it much because there would be simple things to do in order to help that player. But with qb, you need plays and no crucial mistakes. Campbell doesn't have any great plays that have won games and has had at least a couple of crucial mistakes.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Southpaw;599480]Does that mean that Tom Brady's mistakes and lack of playmaking in the Super Bowl against the Giants was entirely his fault, or do you think it had something to do with the Giants front four manhandling the Pats offensive line?

Basically, my point is the quarterback is the top brick of the pyramid that is the 53 man roster, and you don't build a pyramid by trying to place the top brick, first.[/quote]

Let's not forget that despite being punished and harassed all game long by the Giants D, Brady marched his team 80 yards down the field to take a late lead and then handed the game to his Defense. They were the victims of the most ridiculous, circus plays of all time. Brady was sacked 5 times in that game. I don't remember Campbell leading his team on such a drive when he was sacked 7 times against the Steelers last year. Yes, Brady looked average against Giants in that game, but he was still good enough to carry his team to a late lead. Same with Brees this past weekend. The Bills were in his grill all game, but he (and his coaching staff) righted the ship and still scored 27... which will probably be a season low for them;)

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=warriorzpath;599485]Campbell is not the biggest problem. But he's a problem at the most important position on any team. If there was a problem at one of the special teams position, I wouldn't worry about it much because there would be simple things to do in order to help that player. But with qb, you need plays and no crucial mistakes. Campbell doesn't have any great plays that have won games and has had at least a couple of crucial mistakes.[/quote]

Uh-oh. Here comes someone with a reference to the Saints game last year. You asked for it;)

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Southpaw;599480]Does that mean that Tom Brady's mistakes and lack of playmaking in the Super Bowl against the Giants was entirely his fault, or do you think it had something to do with the Giants front four manhandling the Pats offensive line?

Basically, my point is the quarterback is the top brick of the pyramid that is the 53 man roster, and you don't build a pyramid by trying to place the top brick, first.[/quote]

Different game and different season. I believe if you put the Tom Brady of that game in with the redskins in the Giants and Lions games of this season, I think that the redskins would have won the giants game and would have whipped up on the Lions.

Just look at Brady in the first game of this season, he made the big plays to win that game when he had the chance. Campbell has had his chances, too.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Southpaw;599469][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I consider Hasselbeck average because he has had five "good" seasons out of eleven, and most of his career was spent on a team with a dominant run game and above average defense. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]And my point for adding Brees and Rodgers was to illustrate the fact that even they could not overcome deficiencies on their respective teams. Right now, I think the only quarterback that you could add to a below average team and possibly make the playoffs is Peyton Manning.[/FONT][/COLOR][/quote]

I'd say 6 years and he was a back-up for the first 2 and injured the last couple. And he still kicked our asses when we knocked his dominant running back out of the game in the first quarter of the playoffs a few years back. BTW, I didn't say he was hall of fame material, but he's a legitimate, unquestioned and un-threatened starter. My point in previous posts with Campbell is that I don't think any other team would take him to be their guaranteed starter if we were to let him walk at the end of the season. I could be wrong, but that's my opinion.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=warriorzpath;599479] 2 losses that easily could have been won by campbell if he makes the plays - this is the difference between 10-6 and 8-8 of last season.[/quote]

Surely you're kidding. I hope you're also prepared to GIVE credit to the QB for every game in which the Redskins won and at least one first down was gained due to a completed pass.

The story of this team the past 5 years is measured in made or missed field goals, one TD or less. You start trotting out examples of games that "coulda shoulda" been won, you need to put all the games that WERE won up as well.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Green1;598742]Every thread someone is calling for campbell to be benched but his numbers are great.
1. Rating: 92.5 Higher than Brady, Big Ben, C. Palmer, Cutler, and Rivers
2. 9th in passing yards: More that Rodgers, Ryan, Palmer, E. Manning, & Cutler
3. 5th in the Comp. Percent. 67.6%: Higher than everyone in the league except P. Manning, Brees, Big Ben, and Chad Penn.

So what else does he have to do to be considered a good QB. The Skins have a good QB, just bad playcalling, no running game, and no O-line. Get off campbell's back. He is doing more with less better than anyone in the NFL. Check the stats the STATS don't lie![/quote]


Still don't get where you say everyone is calling for JC to be benched. Only one or two guys in the Skins Locker room has called for that. The obvious problem isn't Campbell. it is Zorn's playcalling and to be honest his system. I said I thought he didn't look as poised as Stafford did, nor does he seem to have the leadership, but I never called for his head on a platter or much less to be benched. Everyone on the team sucked rocks, with the exception of Moss.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

With the way things are going, Campbell can throw 47 TDs and the team would only average 21 points a game.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=dgack;599507]Surely you're kidding. I hope you're also prepared to GIVE credit to the QB for every game in which the Redskins won and at least one first down was gained due to a completed pass.

The story of this team the past 5 years is measured in made or missed field goals, one TD or less. You start trotting out examples of games that "coulda shoulda" been won, you need to put all the games that WERE won up as well.[/quote]

Of course, I would be giving credit- IF the redskins had a winning record. But they are at 1-2. It wouldn't make sense to look at the wins from the previous seasons and giving out credit, when they are losing and not performing well now.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=dmvskinzfan08;598755]Hmm...

-Thomas drops a TD pass
-Sellers drops a TD pass
-Zorn calls a HB option play
-We try to run the ball in at the goal line on 2 separate occasions
-Moss fumbles in the redzone

6 opps we came up with that pan out that weren't JC's fault. I may be missing some. But those are the ones I can think of right off hand.

*Not enough passes down the field for bombs. Why because he doesn't have time. By the end of the season if the line can start to hold up many will be eating crow. We expect Manning & Brady. But at times this year they have had bad games. Brady just got out of his funk injured or not. We dont have the cohesiveness and discipline as a offense. So any QB would struggle here.


Do you see a pattern here?[/quote]

I just had to quote my own quote because some people obviously dont read...lol

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=warriorzpath;599548]Of course, I would be giving credit- IF the redskins had a winning record. But they are at 1-2. It wouldn't make sense to look at the wins from the previous seasons and giving out credit, when they are losing and not performing well now.[/quote]

So just so I'm clear:

* Campbell is to blame for at least a few of the games we lost last year.
* If we had a winning record *this* year, he'd get some back credit for the wins *last* year but since we lost one game more than we've won this season, he does not.

Success has many fathers but failure is an orphan.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=dgack;599577]So just so I'm clear:

* Campbell is to blame for at least a few of the games we lost last year.
* If we had a winning record *this* year, he'd get some back credit for the wins *last* year but since we lost one game more than we've won this season, he does not.

Success has many fathers but failure is an orphan.[/quote]

Never said anything about last year's performance in that post. Just pointed out how important the 2 games that the redskins lost this season.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=over the mountain;599453]ive been thinking alot lately about the best approach to building a winning franchise after reading some of the lions fans forums. they seem pretty split on the two major approaches:

1) try to get lucky and get yourself a franchise qb in the draft.

or

2) build thru the trenches and draft to have a solid deep team in which you only need a decent/good qb

i am not the right person nor knowledgeable enough to put together a thread worth discussing but i do find it real interesting. either way has pros - cons. a great qb makes his line, recievers and coaches look better and it only takes perfect draft pick. but (imo) its easier to evaluate O line and D players in the draft than it is to land that special qb who only comes around once every few years. i would argue matt ryan was the one last year with flacco looking great under cameron.

lol you see im already all over the place in my thoughts.

does anyone know any real informative, history based intensive sports article regarding the best philosophy to build a winning franchise? has bill parcells written a book yet lol?

i should probably just google.

go skins!![/quote]You raise good points, but it you end up doing 1) and not 2) or 2) and not 1), the result isn't going to get you where you want to go.

The Skins made a nice value pick in Campbell at No. 25 in the 2005 draft. At that point, QBs are about a 50% proposition, and Campbell has certainly exceeded that expectation. But, through all the work I've done, they lagged along in the No. 2 department, making their investment in No. 1 kind of a waste of time.

They, of course, can go develop quality players around him whenever they want to [I]including the remainder of this season[/I]. But our player acquisition abilities, while certainly not the worst, have been sub-optimal. And we kind of brought Campbell along slowly with the expectation that he could surprise a lot of people in 2008. But the execution of the plan was poor, and plan B was to freak out and try to go for the quick fix once again. As it normally is.

When we drafted Jason Campbell, we took a potential franchise QB, and I thought (outside of the way we shifted the offenses on him) we handled his development pretty well, but at this point, I'm seriously questioning whether the Redskins are ever going to get the payoff. Right now, Campbell is stranded on a team with a highly paid but sometimes average, usually crappy defense, no running game, and receivers that he needs to make better, not the other way around. It's just a horrible situation.

Maybe there's something to the fact that this team must be bad before things get better.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=warriorzpath;599496]Different game and different season. I believe if you put the Tom Brady of that game in with the redskins in the Giants and Lions games of this season, I think that the redskins would have won the giants game and would have whipped up on the Lions.

Just look at Brady in the first game of this season, he made the big plays to win that game when he had the chance. Campbell has had his chances, too.[/quote]Not *this years* Tom Brady. We'd probably be 0-3.

Pre-injury Brady, yes, I think we beat the Lions to go to 2-1.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=jsarno;599476]I think we are about to get to the point where we are going to agree to disagree...but saying I am mistaken makes me scratch my head, so please inform me how exactly Campbell has been proficient in the redzone? What have I missed?

There are certain stats that don't lie like fumbles...you can blame no one but yourself with fumbles. Of course you could try to blame the line, but bottom line is when you fumble, it's on you, you need to protect the ball!

So let me get this straight, you are saying the reason we beat the Rams is cause Campbell had a good completion percentage?[/quote]We beat the Rams because the defense stayed competitive the entire second half (allowing no points, which should be expected against the Rams), and Jason's efficiency (despite poor OL play post-Thomas) served to set up Suisham three times.

Campbell's proficiency in the red zone is mostly based around his play between the 10 and the 20. Inside the ten, he's really not even been given a "read" play all year. There was one against the Giants, and we just completely didn't block the blitz.

Campbell has gotten Zorn to a second season, so he might as well dance with him, IMO.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=jsarno;599484]Absolutely! He's been given ample opportunity...when does "potential" become realized?[/quote]If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it does it make a sound?

If Jason Campbell makes major progress in the stat sheet, and no one is there to read it, is he doing any better?

There's a lot of reasons our offense has struggled since last year's Lions game. The offensive line has not been good and has taken plenty of blows. The running game has not been a factor. The receivers were completely lost all of last year.

This year, the receivers are doing a better job and I think it shows up in Campbell's overall numbers. But the total product hasn't come yet. You do have to give it more than three games if you are looking for everything to come together at once. Just a week ago, Detroit was playing like the worst team in football. After an impressive win against us, they probably aren't one of the five worst teams in football.

We rank middle of the pack in offense, middle of the pack in defense, but our special teams [URL="http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamst"]have actually been pretty good[/URL]. Which is a major upgrade from last year. But progress from this point on either offense or defense will be needed to put the whole package together.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=warriorzpath;599579]Never said anything about last year's performance in that post. Just pointed out how important the 2 games that the redskins lost this season.[/quote]

What? Yes you did, it's sitting right there in the quote box!

You said:

[quote]2 losses that easily could have been won by campbell if he makes the plays - this is the difference between 10-6 and 8-8 of last season.[/quote]

[quote]"It wouldn't make sense to look at the wins from the previous seasons and giving out credit, when they are losing and not performing well now."[/quote]

So you are saying it's not fair to give Jason credit for wins last season because the team has a losing record this year. But you also said in the previous post that you do hold him responsible for the team being 8-8 instead of 10-6.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=DynamiteRave;598814]First off.. Bro. You might not wanna assume everyone here is male, considering I'm not.

Nothing's wrong for having love for a team where you used to live. That doesn't make you any less of a fan of the current team you like.

Speaking of non-males... You know who I miss. Hess. lol you old timers know who I'm talking about.[/quote]

I was just thinking about that D.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Mattyk72;598852]Yet here we are still banging away at this dead issue.

I don't get it.[/quote]

Weren't you the one who said the stupidity of mankind never ceases to amaze you. This is just another example.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=GTripp0012;599586]Not *this years* Tom Brady. We'd probably be 0-3.

Pre-injury Brady, yes, I think we beat the Lions to go to 2-1.[/quote]

I'd take this year's Brady in a heartbeat. And we'd be 3-0.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=dgack;599577]So just so I'm clear:[B]

* Campbell is to blame for at least a few of the games we lost last year.[/B]
* If we had a winning record *this* year, he'd get some back credit for the wins *last* year but since we lost one game more than we've won this season, he does not.

Success has many fathers but failure is an orphan.[/quote]

Ok, since you claimed it, name it. (see we all can coin clever sayings)

Tell us which games and how Campbell lost us last year.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Paintrain;599640]Ok, since you claimed it, name it. (see we all can coin clever sayings)

Tell us which games and how Campbell lost us last year.[/quote]

You got me, I was trying to clarify his (Warriorzpath's) arguments. I personally lay about 10% of the team's problems at Campbell's feet.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

I think Campbell has done well, a few hiccups but what qb has not had them. Lets face it, whoever is the QB of the Washington Redskins is either going to be the Hero or Zero, that is just the way it is in DC.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=44Deezel;599638]I'd take this year's Brady in a heartbeat. [B] And we'd be 3-0[/B].[/quote]

:laughing- Please. The Patriots aren't even 3-0 with Brady. They only beat the Bills by one point ( Because of a really stupid play by the Bills) and lost to the Jets.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Ruhskins;599294]This is the part that kills me about some of the fans...they bitch about not building through the draft or building through the trenches, blah blah blah. If Campbell gets run out of town successfully, basically we will spend our resources on a new QB, instead of spending them on offensive linemen and linebackers.[/quote]

Completely agree with you on this Ruhskins. We let JC walk and if we have a top 10 pick what do we draft? Oh let ,me guess a QB ( McCoy,Tebow,Bradford) then he can get killed with this marshmellow line and no running game. I guess we still don't draft O-Lineman again like years past. Always chasing the the next franchise QB BLAH BLAH BLAH.:headbange

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/09/29/eagles-say-goodbye-to-jeff-garcia/]Eagles say goodbye to Jeff Garcia | ProFootballTalk.com[/url]

Do you guys envision a senario in which Garcia comes to DC if there is a shakeup at QB this season?

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;599765][url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/09/29/eagles-say-goodbye-to-jeff-garcia/]Eagles say goodbye to Jeff Garcia | ProFootballTalk.com[/url]

Do you guys envision a senario in which Garcia comes to DC if there is a shakeup at QB this season?[/quote]

No. What would be the point?

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=44Deezel;599638]I'd take this year's Brady in a heartbeat. And we'd be 3-0.[/quote]


2009 Tom Brady: 61.3% Completion, 3 TD's, 2 Int's, 871 Yds, 11 Rush Yds, 79.9 QB Rating

2009 Jason Campbell: 67.6% Completion, 3 TD's, 2 Int's, 793 Yds, 65 Rush Yds, 92.5 QB Rating

Brady is playing behind an all pro offensive line and throwing to Randy Moss, and his numbers aren't any better than Campbell's. If you want to say Washington would be 3-0 with Brady, I could just as easily say that the Patriots would be 3-0 with Campbell and his numbers would look much better than Brady's numbers after three weeks.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=53Fan;599663]:laughing- Please. The Patriots aren't even 3-0 with Brady. They only beat the Bills by one point ( Because of a really stupid play by the Bills) and lost to the Jets.[/quote]

They also didn't play the Rams and Lions. I'm totally gay for Brady, so don't expect me to be reasonable.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Southpaw;599809]2009 Tom Brady: 61.3% Completion, 3 TD's, 2 Int's, 871 Yds, 11 Rush Yds, 79.9 QB Rating

2009 Jason Campbell: 67.6% Completion, 3 TD's, 2 Int's, 793 Yds, 65 Rush Yds, 92.5 QB Rating

Brady is playing behind an all pro offensive line and throwing to Randy Moss, and his numbers aren't any better than Campbell's. If you want to say Washington would be 3-0 with Brady, I could just as easily say that the Patriots would be 3-0 with Campbell and his numbers would look much better than Brady's numbers after three weeks.[/quote]

Cassell was sacked more than Campbell last year, so the O-line argument falls flat. And Brady proved he could be good with mediocre talent at the skill positions. Name his WRs and RBs when he won 3 Super Bowls.

And Campbell isn't coming off a season ending knee injury. And while the stats are similar, Brady's widely considered to be struggling by his standards, while Campbell is playing the best football of his career.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;599765][url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/09/29/eagles-say-goodbye-to-jeff-garcia/]Eagles say goodbye to Jeff Garcia | ProFootballTalk.com[/url]

Do you guys envision a senario in which Garcia comes to DC if there is a shakeup at QB this season?[/quote]

Would not entirely surprise me, since we're only carrying 2 QBs. If Campbell were to go down, I'm sure they'd consider it. He is a West Coast guy, after all.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=dgack;599626]What? Yes you did, it's sitting right there in the quote box!

You said:





So you are saying it's not fair to give Jason credit for wins last season because the team has a losing record this year. But you also said in the previous post that you do hold him responsible for the team being 8-8 instead of 10-6.[/quote]

I never said that he was responsible for being 8-8 last year. Freaking read my posts. Dammit

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

He could have won 2 games THIS season easily if he made as few as a couple of plays. He's the freaking leader of this team, so take responsibility for it.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=44Deezel;599850]They also didn't play the Rams and Lions. I'm totally gay for Brady, so don't expect me to be reasonable.[/quote]

But they did play the Bills and a rookie QB in NY. I feel the same way about P. Manning though. If we had him at QB we'd be 6-0 because he's so dominant teams feel like they were beaten twice and start craving Double Stuffed Oreo's immediately following their beatdown.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

The Patriots are Tom Brady's team, so if the team sucks then guess what - Tom Brady is sucking this season too. Because he is the leader of that team. New Orleans is kicking ass this season and guess what - Brees is also kicking ass this season.

It all starts with the quarterback. Everyone else can make it as complicated as taxes and rocket science, but it's simple. Foremost, on-the-field performance: the responsibility belongs to the quarterback.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

... and that's why USUALLY when a receiver runs the wrong route or drops the ball - the quarterback is the first to get upset because no matter what, fair or unfair, the performance of the offense as a whole is put on the responsibility of the quarterback.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

I think we have the most fans that hate their team/players in the entire NFL.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=dmvskinzfan08;599891]I think we have the most fans that hate their team/players in the entire NFL.[/quote]

I thought it was funny in the indy arizona game that arizona fans were booing the defending NFC Champions.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=warriorzpath;599871]The Patriots are Tom Brady's team, so if the team sucks then guess what - Tom Brady is sucking this season too. Because he is the leader of that team. New Orleans is kicking ass this season and guess what - Brees is also kicking ass this season.

It all starts with the quarterback. Everyone else can make it as complicated as taxes and rocket science, but it's simple. Foremost, on-the-field performance: the responsibility belongs to the quarterback.[/quote]

I have to agree with you on the Brees point...and what kills me was that he was available for Dannyboy to make a move for him way back when. I was one of the ppl who was screaming for the skins to go after him.

I don't get how danny boy spends so much money on other positions and hasn't really thrown much at the QB position except maybe Brad Johnson (i don't count Jeff George or Mark Brunell cuz they were in the twilight of their careers)

I think coming into this debate, i was close to neutral on JC and leaning towards letting him finish out the season as the starter and see what he can do...During the course of the debate and seeing how rabidly ppl are defending him & attackign him (with stats, intangibles, empirical data) one thing seems very apparent to me. That is, that JC seems to be a very polarizing figure. That's a pretty telling thing to me. It tells me that a house divided against itself can never stand. It tells me that, though they may not say it publicly, I'm sure plenty of ppl in the organization and the locker room are having this same debate (perhaps in their heads). To me, that's a nightmare and the worst thing to happen to a team. If they can't trust their leader on the field, then the leader needs to end that debate immediately or go.

I really want JC to do well and prove me wrong, but unfortunately I'm thinking he isnt going to end this debate by the bye week and probably not by the end of the season. I'm thinking at the end of the season it might be time for us to find ourselves a new leader.

Re: Campbell's numbers dont lie
 

[quote=hail_2_da_skins;599318]Some of you guys and gals are morons. You must be watching these games with blinders or drunk. The Red Zone offense and the defense is the problem. Jason Campbell is doing his job. It's not his fault if he is not even getting opportunities to even make plays in the Red Zone. Most of the time Zorn is calling running plays or half back option passes. A few of the passes that Campbell have thrown have been dropped. How do you come to the conclusion that you should put in a 38 year old career backup. Zorn needs to take off the shackles and allow Campbell make plays, call audibles at the line, run hurry-up offense to change the pace. The offense is too simple and predictable.[/quote]
I'm extremely pissed off with the state of the Redskins and went too far calling some of members morons. I apologize. I'm just tired of all the overreacting and asking for everyone to be fired, including Snyder. After a couple days of fuming, I've come to the realization, the Redskins are not that good. That's a hard pill to swallow but the evidence in on the field. I watch a replay of the game and Detroit beat the Skins in every phase of the game. This week will be a true test. Are the Redskins the worst team in football? As bad as the Redskins have played, the Bucs are worse. I think...