Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

Back on the game for a sec I loved how aggressive Sean Payton was.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[quote=Mattyk;661569]Back on the game for a sec I loved how aggressive Sean Payton was.[/quote]

If it weren't for that gutsy play calling. You know start of second half on side kick (BIG MOMENTUM) shift.

The outcome could have very well been different. The D was also in attack mode all game, Gregg was sending the kitchen sink.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

NFL Network is now anointing the Saints "America's Team" with none other than Michael Irvin leading the charge. Is he forgetting that team he used to play for or what?

I'm really happy for the Saints, but it's amazing the things people will say after a big win like yesterday, praise comes from everywhere from some of the most unlikely sources. I too give it up for the Saints, no team more deserving.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[quote=Mattyk;661569]Back on the game for a sec I loved how aggressive Sean Payton was.[/quote]

Coaching was key in this game and Sean Payton won hands down. I was disappointed the Colts sent Stover out for the 51 yard FG. He's not very good from long distance anymore and I thought the Colts would have been better off going for it or punting for field position.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[quote=44Deezel;661464]No they didn't. Brady didn't play for the 86 Bears or the 2000 Ravens. His Defenses were good, not great. AND Manning has had WAY MORE talent around him, yet he consistently under-achieves. As a matter of fact, if it weren't for Brady's pathetic Receivers (future hall of famers, Troy Brown and Jabar Gaffney) dropping passes, last night would have been Manning's first Super Bowl. Manning is this generations Dan Marino. Brady is this generation's Joe Montana. Manning has 29TDs and 18INTs in the playoffs. AVERAGE!

Manning is Brady's bitch![/quote]With all due respect, particularly to the 2006 Patriots, the better Brady's offense has gotten around him, the MORE dominant Manning has been in the head to head series.

In the time frame between 2001-2005, New England's defense was the best overall defense in the time range. They may never have had a single year where they could be in the "greatest defense of all time" debate, but you'd have to put the early-decade Patriots in the same class as the great Titans defenses from earlier this decade and the Steelers defenses from more recent times, and the mid-decade Bears as the best defensive unit of the last ten years. No defense has been better longer since the Patriots.

And Brady hasn't won anything since his defenses were relevant. He's 2-2 in his last four playoff games, and 5-4 in his last nine. We can rip Manning for his overall playoff record being out of line with his regular season record, but he hasn't been a worse (or better) quarterback in the postseason than Brady. Saying otherwise is ignoring the evidence.

It's 2010 now. You need a new narrative.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[quote=Mattyk;661569]Back on the game for a sec I loved how aggressive Sean Payton was.[/quote]

I think if someone said that onside kick was the gutsiest call they had ever seen in their entire lifetime I don't think I would be interested in arguing with them. It is just insane how much of a risk/reward calculation that play call was.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[quote=53Fan;661596]Coaching was key in this game and Sean Payton won hands down. I was disappointed the Colts sent Stover out for the 51 yard FG. He's not very good from long distance anymore and I thought the Colts would have been better off going for it or punting for field position.[/quote]

Yeah I don't think the Colts did anything to match NO's aggressiveness, and they clearly needed to in some spots. Stover doesn't have the range anymore for 50+, I thought they should have gone for it.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

Now, if you want to argue that Drew Brees is a better quarterback in the postseason than either of them, there's only limited evidence on him, but he's actually 4-2 in the postseason since first reaching it in 2004, and has very comparable numbers to his regular season stats. You'll need like 3 more seasons on him before conclusions can be reached, but he was marvelous last night.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

The Saints made another "bold move" toward the end of the 1st half by going for it on 4th down and the Colts D stuffed them. Indy blew it by going 3 and out deep in their own territory right after that. Colts had a huge chance to make something to end the first half after a 4th down goal-line stand and then start the 2nd half with the ball. That seems to have been forgotten

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[quote=GTripp0012;661597] We can rip Manning for his overall playoff record being out of line with his regular season record, but he hasn't been a worse (or better) quarterback in the postseason than Brady. Saying otherwise is ignoring the evidence.[/quote]

I call "bullshit" on this post. Only because it's absurd to suggest that Manning is in Tom Brady's league in playoff performance.

He absolutely is not.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[quote=Longtimefan;661575]NFL Network is now anointing the Saints "America's Team" with none other than Michael Irvin leading the charge. Is he forgetting that team he used to play for or what?

I'm really happy for the Saints, but it's amazing the things people will say after a big win like yesterday, praise comes from everywhere from some of the most unlikely sources. I too give it up for the Saints, no team more deserving.[/quote]
Well it could be easy to call them America's Team because over half the citizens live of our tax dollars.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[quote=SmootSmack;661608]The Saints made another "bold move" toward the end of the 1st half by going for it on 4th down and the Colts D stuffed them. Indy blew it by going 3 and out deep in their own territory right after that. Colts had a huge chance to make something to end the first half after a 4th down goal-line stand and then start the 2nd half with the ball. That seems to have been forgotten[/quote]

Yeah that 3 and out was big, no doubt. I guess they just didn't want to risk a turnover but it was odd to not see the Colts come out in attack mode like they usually do.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[quote=wilsowilso;661599]I think if someone said that onside kick was the gutsiest call they had ever seen in their entire lifetime I don't think I would be interested in arguing with them. It is just insane how much of a risk/reward calculation that play call was.[/quote]It was insanely ballzy, but it's more insane that it hadn't been used in any of the prior 43 super bowls. A surprise onside kick, so long as it hasn't been used so often as that it is not surprise, offers a chance to risk 30 yards of field position (expected point value of 1.4) for what is essentially a turnover (expected point value of 3.0) at a near even rate. That's a great play to take the risk on.

I'd imagine that coaches shy away from it only because of media criticism and the fear that the other team might be well coached enough as to be prepared for it. But Payton is clearly oblivious to what people think about him, which is one of the primary qualifications of a great head coach.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

Very happy for the Saints well deserved, a little jealous to when will the SKINS get back there hopefully soon.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[quote=wilsowilso;661609]I call "bullshit" on this post. Only because it's absurd to suggest that Manning is in Tom Brady's league in playoff performance.

He absolutely is not.[/quote]Says who?

[url=http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00/gamelog/]Tom Brady Career Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com[/url]

[url=http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00/gamelog/]Peyton Manning Career Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com[/url]

Each has 18 playoff starts. Manning has a QB rating 87.6, Brady has one of 85.5. QB rating is not a nearly accurate enough statistic to judge anything conclusive from that, or to say one is better than the other, but 18 football games is a lot of data, and that's a nearly identical performance--generally speaking.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

I know a lot of Brees' playoff starts have been in warm weather/indoors, in fact, his worst playoff start is his only game played outdoors, in cold weather, in January,

but these playoff numbers (see bottom of page) are cartoonish.

[URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BreeDr00/gamelog/"]Drew Brees Career Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com[/URL]

He officially has my support for the hall of fame, whatever it's worth to him.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[url=http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2010/02/saints-super-bowl-win-is-.html]Saints' Super Bowl win nips 'MASH' finale for most-watched show ever | Company Town | Los Angeles Times[/url]

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[quote=GTripp0012;661618]Says who?

[URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00/gamelog/"]Tom Brady Career Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com[/URL]

[URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00/gamelog/"]Peyton Manning Career Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com[/URL]

Each has 18 playoff starts. Manning has a QB rating 87.6, Brady has one of 85.5. QB rating is not a nearly accurate enough statistic to judge anything conclusive from that, or to say one is better than the other, but 18 football games is a lot of data, and that's a nearly identical performance--generally speaking.[/quote]

Because unlike you Greg, I don't place such a high value on statistics.

Stats are very telling and useful and all, but they are far from the whole the story.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[quote=GTripp0012;661618]Says who?

[URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00/gamelog/"]Tom Brady Career Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com[/URL]

[URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00/gamelog/"]Peyton Manning Career Game Log | Pro-Football-Reference.com[/URL]

Each has 18 playoff starts. Manning has a QB rating 87.6, Brady has one of 85.5. QB rating is not a nearly accurate enough statistic to judge anything conclusive from that, or to say one is better than the other, but 18 football games is a lot of data, and that's a nearly identical performance--generally speaking.[/quote]


This was before this year's playoffs:

[url=http://wbzfmmichael.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/16563767/18228320]Brady vs. Manning - CBSSports.com[/url]

Joe Montana [URL="http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/187741"][COLOR=#0000ff]Tom Brady[/COLOR][/URL] [URL="http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/12531"][COLOR=#0000ff]Peyton Manning[/COLOR][/URL]
Playoff Record: 16-7 14-3 7-8
Playoff TD-INT: 45-21 26-12 22-17
Playoff Passer Rating: 95.6 93.4 84.6
Super Bowl Record: 4-0 3-1 1-0
Super Bowl TD-INT: 11-0 7-1 1-1
Super Bowl Passer Rating: 127.8 99.88 81.80
Super Bowl MVP’s: 3 2 1

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[quote=wilsowilso;661627]Because unlike you Greg, I don't place such a high value on statistics.

Stats are very telling and useful and all, but they are far from the whole the story.[/quote]That's fine and all, but I'm thinking that the alternative to the gross statistical totals (which are--as you pointed out--far from the whole story) is stuff that happened more than five years ago, when a 26 year old Brady was thought to be, if nothing else, more "clutch" than a 28 year old Manning.

Which is, in my opinion, not more inclusive than the statistics show, but far less.

I don't wish to make a conclusive argument that Manning and Brady are playoff equals, I just wish to show that there's no noticeable difference between what one has done and what the other has. And if there's not a noticeable difference, then unsupported quips that suggest that EVERYONE should know that the statistics are wrong are just that- unsupported.

Not wrong. Not by any means. Just unsupported.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[quote=mlmpetert;661629]This was before this year's playoffs:

[URL="http://wbzfmmichael.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/16563767/18228320"]Brady vs. Manning - CBSSports.com[/URL]

Joe Montana [URL="http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/187741"][COLOR=#0000ff]Tom Brady[/COLOR][/URL] [URL="http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/12531"][COLOR=#0000ff]Peyton Manning[/COLOR][/URL]
Playoff Record: 16-7 14-3 7-8
Playoff TD-INT: 45-21 26-12 22-17
Playoff Passer Rating: 95.6 93.4 84.6
Super Bowl Record: 4-0 3-1 1-0
Super Bowl TD-INT: 11-0 7-1 1-1
Super Bowl Passer Rating: 127.8 99.88 81.80
Super Bowl MVP’s: 3 2 1[/quote]This is strong evidence and all, but I want to suggest that the significance of it all could be brought into question by simply adding another year of performance to the equation, particularly one that brings Brady and Manning to the same number of playoff starts, completely eliminates the performance differences between them.

Montana brings me to another great point. There's a guy who had a great playoff career. Excellent playoff performer. But if you cut off his career at 1985 or 1986, not so much. Montana's playoff numbers only became great due to what he accomplished in his thirties.

Therefore, the less time we allow Manning to perform in the playoffs, the weaker his playoff argument gets. We absolutely HAVE to include this year in the analysis, and probably, this playoff quarterback comparison cannot end until Brady and Manning both reach the point of their careers where they are complementary parts in their offenses.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

The implied clause in my argument is that BOTH quarterbacks will be back in the playoffs next year, and they both have multiple playoff games left. There is no reason to try to declare one better than the other, especially because they are so close right now.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[quote=SmootSmack;661608]The Saints made another "bold move" toward the end of the 1st half by going for it on 4th down and the Colts D stuffed them. Indy blew it by going 3 and out deep in their own territory right after that. Colts had a huge chance to make something to end the first half after a 4th down goal-line stand and then start the 2nd half with the ball. That seems to have been forgotten[/quote]


[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]The announcers touched on this a little bit. I don’t think this was as gusty as some see it. It they took the chip shot field goal they give it back to the Colts with a little less than 2 mins at around the 20-30 yard line. If they go for it on 4th and don’t make it they give it to the Colts with about the same amount of time and on the 1 or 2 yard line. Backed that far up with so little time left the Colts are almost forced to run it for at least 1 play, so they have even less time to go about 25 yards further to get into field goal or td range. [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]
So you give up a certain 3 points, but dramatically reduce the chance the Colts will negate those 3 points with 3 of their own. Plus you reduce the odds even more so that the Colts will score a TD and gain 4 points over your 3. Then you have the best case seniors in which you force the Colts to punt and end up with good field position to either score a TD or get a field goal as time expires….. which of course is what happened. [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]One of the huge x factors going into this game that I think a lot of people forgot about what the coaching staff. And the Saints certainly out coached the Colts last night. [/FONT][/COLOR]

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

My last thoughts on the Super Bowl:

A) So why Dan Snyder did you want Jim Zorn over Gregg Williams?
B) I'm very happy, Sharper, Vilma, Will Smith, Brees, Colston, Shockey got Super Bowl rings. Shockey got one with the Giants but he didn't play.
C) Peyton Manning is still the best QB in the NFL, I credit Porter on making a great jump on the ball, and not Manning on making a poor throw.
D) Peyton > Tom Brady give Peyton Randy Moss and Wes Welker, I guarantee you that he breaks that 50 TD record of brady's.Super bowls are good at measuring success, but there are some asterisks with that, like Marino not getting a super bowl or trent dilfer/brad johnson getting one with great defenses, and the fact that if vinitari hadn't made those kicks at the end of the super bowls, Brady may not even have all the rings. Also keep in mind that the pats did admit to filming peoples signals all the way back to the rams super bowl.
E) I'm glad the saints got their first ever super bowl
F) Colts will be back to at least 2 more super bowls
G) Are we ready for Free Agency and the Draft Skins Fans?

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[quote=mlmpetert;661640][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]The announcers touched on this a little bit. I don’t think this was as gusty as some see it. It they took the chip shot field goal they give it back to the Colts with a little less than 2 mins at around the 20-30 yard line. If they go for it on 4th and don’t make it they give it to the Colts with about the same amount of time and on the 1 or 2 yard line. Backed that far up with so little time left the Colts are almost forced to run it for at least 1 play, so they have even less time to go about 25 yards further to get into field goal or td range. [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]
So you give up a certain 3 points, but dramatically reduce the chance the Colts will negate those 3 points with 3 of their own. Plus you reduce the odds even more so that the Colts will score a TD and gain 4 points over your 3. Then you have the best case seniors in which you force the Colts to punt and end up with good field position to either score a TD or get a field goal as time expires….. which of course is what happened. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]One of the huge x factors going into this game that I think a lot of people forgot about what the coaching staff. And the Saints certainly out coached the Colts last night. [/FONT][/COLOR][/quote]Yep. You are correct. In a normal game situation, that's a no-brainer go for it situation. It was a little tougher because of the game clock being under two minutes, the Saints lose a lot of value of having the opponent start inside their own five.

But they gain a lot of that back because Manning is the opposing quarterback. Starting him inside the five forces the Colts' hand with playcalling. Letting him out to the thirty on a kick frees him up to go get that touchdown to put the game away.

It ended up working out great for the Saints, coming away with the three points anyway, and running out the clock in the process. But they could do that because Hartley has been cash-money throughout the playoffs from the 45-50 range.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[quote=GTripp0012;661635]The implied clause in my argument is that BOTH quarterbacks will be back in the playoffs next year, and they both have multiple playoff games left. There is no reason to try to declare one better than the other, especially because they are so close right now.[/quote]


Its way to early. I think Manning has 3 years on Brady, while they both will most likely end up playing around 5 more years (Maybe longer for Brady). Im slightly in the Brady camp, and cant wait to see what they both do next year.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

And what about Reggie Wayne? Where was he on Sunday?

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[quote=SmootSmack;661661]And what about Reggie Wayne? Where was he on Sunday?[/quote]Wayne, completely subjectively, never has struck me as the type of playoff force as he has proven to be in the regular season. Marvin Harrison always seemed to have the same problem. These were GREAT receivers who seemed to take a back seat to the Brandon Stokley's and Dallas Clark's of the world in the playoffs (the broken coverage by Danieal Manning three years ago notwithstanding).

I don't want to hate baselessly on these guys, and this is admittedly a pretty superficial complaint. But Reggie's route on the Porter pick-six was indecisive at best. He throttled down completely and gave away the inside on the cut.

I initially credited Jabari Greer with shutdown coverage on Wayne, but he seemed to be lined up at LCB, primarily, rather than on Wayne. That left him on Garcon on most plays. And Wayne vs. Porter SHOULD be a huge mismatch. But it was a push at best even before the INT.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[quote=firstdown;661611]Well it could be easy to call them America's Team because over half the citizens live of our tax dollars.[/quote]

That is an alternative way of viewing the situation, maybe that was Irvin's thought process as well..........but I doubt it, he he

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

To Jim Zorn.

Thank You!

Signed, Chase Daniel.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[quote=DBUCHANON101;662133]To Jim Zorn.

Thank You!

Signed, Chase Daniel.[/quote]

I was watching CNN last night and they were showing this parade. And who was up there celebrating on that giant raft w/ Brees?? Brunell and Daniel. I just starting laughing my ass off. Good for Brunell to get a ring even though he was not the starter. And Daniel is learning from one of the best.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[quote=mlmpetert;661629]This was before this year's playoffs:

[URL="http://wbzfmmichael.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/16563767/18228320"]Brady vs. Manning - CBSSports.com[/URL]

Joe Montana [URL="http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/187741"][COLOR=#0000ff]Tom Brady[/COLOR][/URL] [URL="http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/12531"][COLOR=#0000ff]Peyton Manning[/COLOR][/URL]
Playoff Record: 16-7 14-3 7-8
Playoff TD-INT: 45-21 26-12 22-17
Playoff Passer Rating: 95.6 93.4 84.6
Super Bowl Record: 4-0 3-1 1-0
Super Bowl TD-INT: 11-0 7-1 1-1
Super Bowl Passer Rating: 127.8 99.88 81.80
Super Bowl MVP’s: 3 2 1[/quote]

you guys and your nerdy stats. i mean montana, brady and manning are all great qb's. manning hasn't had as much successs in the playoffs for what ever reason. he's still a great qb.

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

[quote=skinsfan69;662207]I was watching CNN last night and they were showing this parade. And who was up there celebrating on that giant raft w/ Brees?? Brunell and Daniel. I just starting laughing my ass off. Good for Brunell to get a ring even though he was not the starter. [B]And Daniel is learning from one of the best[/B].[/quote]

Yes he is. Also has a nice RING to go along with his apprenticeship!

Re: Super Bowl XLIV Gameday Thread: Saints vs. Colts
 

Here's another opinion about how losing the SB effects Manning's legacy by the always credible Mike Florio ;) I don't like this guy's articles but I know there's a lot of people questioning Manning's position as one of the top QB's of all-time because of his playoff record and I still find many who still believe he's choke artist when playing in big games (I'm not one of them)

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/02/10/pftv-looks-at-impact-of-super-bowl-loss-on-mannings-legacy/]PFTV looks at impact of Super Bowl loss on Manning's legacy | ProFootballTalk.com[/url]